New flintlock rifle, preferences

[Tatume]

What are your experiences with ignition systems? If you were building a new rifle, which of these configurations would you choose, and why?

[daschnoz]

- Removable barrel for cleaning is nice. You can soak the thing in the bathtub if you need to without doing any damage to the wood.

- Patent breech helps with ignition, just be careful when you are cleaning it in the field. The design of that breech makes it difficult to dry the bore completely. Wet powder does not ignite very well. I had this happen to me while hunting once. Thankfully, no deer presented himself for harvest, or I would have been pissed.

[Good Cheer]

Actually my preference is plain plug and wedges instead of pins, so I chose the closest I could get.

[waksupi]

I refuse to build a rifle with a patent breech. Definitely would not want one on a flinter.

[pietro]

.

My .50 Austin & Halleck flinter had a QD/hooked patent breech & (IIRC) a lined vent - IMHO it was the bee's knee's. :D

.

[JeffinNZ]

I refuse to build a rifle with a patent breech. Definitely would not want one on a flinter.

I agree. I have been, for a good many years, babysitting a Lyman .54cal. It has a patent breech with a chamber of about .38cal. Dang stupid idea. Hard to clean.

As far as vents go used to have a 1/4X28 bronze vent in my Isaac Haines. Ruined too many trying to get them out once fouled as the crud works up into the generous threads. Installed a Jim Chambers 'White Lightning' and never looked back.

[rfd]

***NO*** "patent" breech tunnels, ever! what a PITA they are!

i'm having a custom traditional hawken/english rifle built for me with these very basic spex ...


.50 half stock
36" colerain barrel exclusively for patched balls
flat faced hooked breech and touch hole liner
twin barrel wedges
siler lock
davis DST


both the breech and vent liner should be installed with anti-seize lube. this is the FIRST thing i check with any traditional muzzleloader, and rectify if need be. the breech face should be polished, too.

[Hickory]

Some people are stuck in the wrong century.

[rfd]

when it comes to most things in life - muzzleloaders included - it's all subjective stuff and all that will matter are yer subjective opinions, likes, and dislikes.

enjoy the ride as best ya can .................

[Tatume]

So far one person has voted for the unlined vent. Would you please say why?

I have a 62 caliber Danny Caywood English Game Gun, so I know he is adamant about vent liners. He says he will stand by his guns, and will replace the barrel if the unlined vent wears out. But he doesn't say why he despises vent liners so much.

[rfd]

i see no exceptional advantage to a drilled hole other than if done correctly it can be drilled within a fraction of an inch in front of a flat breech plug face. drilling out a touch hole and threading for a liner might not be easy, or may be impossible due to the original vent hole's location with regards to the breech plug, and if the plug is flat faced or patent.

although a liner will be typically placed well after a flat plug face, a liner that can be either straight or coned can be replaced for either wear or to experiment with hole diameters.

[Tatume]

I found Danny Caywood's argument against liners.

http://www.caywoodguns.com/touch-hole-liners.html

I've never heard of a vent liner being expelled from the gun. Have you?

[rfd]

danny has a thoughtful and compelling argument against vent hole liners, 'cept the one where the liner is a time bomb waiting to explode and kill someone. geez louise. show me a production rifle that doesn't have a vent liner, then show me one that's blown up.

the real problem will be, as i've already mentioned, is drilling out an existing vent hole for a liner - for most flat faced breech plugs, that tapped vent liner hole will invade the breech plug's threads. this means that a vent liner can never be as close to a flat breech face as simple drilled hole, which in theory means the simple drilled touch hole will be, or might be, more efficient. drilling for a vent liner in a patent breech is a totally different story, however, since that vent hole is centered on the patent tunnel's dogleg.

[waksupi]

danny has a thoughtful and compelling argument against vent hole liners, 'cept the one where the liner is a time bomb waiting to explode and kill someone. geez louise. show me a production rifle that doesn't have a vent liner, then show me one that's blown up.

the real problem will be, as i've already mentioned, is drilling out an existing vent hole for a liner - for most flat faced breech plugs, that tapped vent liner hole will invade the breech plug's threads. this means that a vent liner can never be as close to a flat breech face as simple drilled hole, which in theory means the simple drilled touch hole will be, or might be, more efficient. drilling for a vent liner in a patent breech is a totally different story, however, since that vent hole is centered on the patent tunnel's dogleg.

When I run in to that, I drill in to approximately half way across the breech face, and then install the vent. Works fine, and gives a smidgen of space there for when you dry ball, and need to poke a few grains of powder in the vent. Not that I have ever had to do that, mind you.

[jimb16]

When I run in to that, I drill in to approximately half way across the breech face, and then install the vent. Works fine, and gives a smidgen of space there for when you dry ball, and need to poke a few grains of powder in the vent. Not that I have ever had to do that, mind you.
UH-HUH! Yeah.... Me neither.

[taco650]

"patent" breech vs. plain breech? Can someone post pics so I know what you're arguing over?

FYI, I've thought of getting a flinter deer hunting. My problem in the price. Synthetic stocked, scope ready inlines fit my budget but I like the look a traditional muzzleloader better and don't see the need for anything more than a patched round lead ball for killing Georgia whitetails.

[rfd]

a gaggle of "patent breech" illustrations, with the classic "traditional" flat faced breech depicted in the lower right drawing ...


http://i.imgur.com/Hf8CkpI.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/hQv38Kw.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/2cbrdOF.png

the main issue with a "patent breech" is cleaning it out - as can be seen, the tunnel or ante-chamber is considerably smaller in diameter than the barrel's chamber or bore. and then there's the flue, which can also be a larger diameter than the touch hole itself to clean out. the gist of the patent breech technology is to create better, faster ignition. and this is true, to some degree, maybe. however, cleaning out the tunnel and dogleg flue to the touch hole are issues that i consider more challenging and time consuming than any ignition "advantage". the classic, time honored, traditional flat faced breech plug allows better cleaning (it can be done with a scraper, which will not work on a patent breech), better fouling control, and has been around for centuries before the "tunnel and flue" was "invented". screw the flue, sez i.

if i may be bold enough to make a budget minded trad sidelock muzzleloader recommendation for deer and even critters smaller and perhaps a tad larger ... Dixie Gun Works offers a double set trigger hawken style flinter in .50 caliber for $515. it's of good quality, having been made by the renowned investarms (italy) firearms corporation, which also makes the very good lyman muzzleloaders. i have one in my traditional muzzleloading collection. it works just fine.

http://www.dixiegunworks.com/images/FR1332.jpg

http://www.dixiegunworks.com/product_info.php?cPath=22_92_186_190&products_id=3455

grab-a-gun in texas offers the lyman flint trade rifle in .50 or .54 calibers (again, an investarms flinter) for $422 and is an excellent choice, but the trigger will be a single rather than double set. i prefer the double set double phase trigger assemblies.

http://media.midwayusa.com/productimages/880x660/Primary/880/883707.jpg

https://grabagun.com/lyman-trade-rifle-50c-flt.html

yes, ALL of the offerings have patent breeches, there is no getting around that with 99% of the production ml's out there. no big deal.

i would avoid at all costs the cheaper rifles that are made in spain (traditions, cva, etc) - they will not allow their (patent) breech plug removal without damaging the barrel, and they warn about that. why do you want to remove the breech plug? well, some day you may dry ball a tight patched load that a ball screw worm won't easily budge, let alone allow extraction out the muzzle. pulling the breech plug will allow pushing the ball out the chamber side of the barrel. oh, you promise never to dry ball a load??? really??? HAHAHAHA!!!

learn LOTS more about traditional muzzleloaders - http://traditionalmuzzleloadingassociation.org/tradml/index.html

[Hanshi]

I've only had one flintlock with a "patent" breech. I had no problems with it whatsoever. But I'm so use to flat breeches, pinned barrels and vent liners, that that's what I know and am familiar with. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

[taco650]

rfd,

Thanks for the information on the breeches and rifle suggestions. Just from looking at the diagrams you shared, I really don't see the advantage of the patent breech. To my thinking, just boring a hole in the side of the barrel right where the bore ends, threading it so a pan assembly can be screwed into to it with the hole showing should be enough to ignite the powder charge properly. Am I seeing this correctly?

Engineers seem to over think stuff on occasion.

[rfd]

for centuries and hundreds of thousands (millions?) of well used flintlock firearms were created for sustenance, protection and warfare with just a bored touch hole directly in front of a flat faced breech plug, not even a liner was used (or, in truth, really needed).

one can even consider that the finest of powders might've been 2f at best for both tube and pan, and that there is no record of a "short ball starter" 'til the 20th century.

so, are today's more "advanced and modern" renditions of 18th and 19th century flintlock muzzleloaders better, with their patent breeches, along with finer powder and ball starters and special lubes and cleaners and patched balls that require a hammer to bang down the barrel, than their precedents, and therefore necessary? the answer to that is personal and dependent on where a muzzleloading firearm fits into one's requirements for use, and aesthetics. one doesn't even need to choose, one can have them all.

re: "... boring a hole in the side of the barrel right where the bore ends, threading it so a pan assembly can be screwed into to it with the hole showing ..." - with a flintlock, the pan is integral to the lock and not the barrel. the flintlock barrel typically was, and can still be, as simple as a tube (rifled or not) ending with a screwed-in breech plug/tang, and a small hole drilled right in front of the breech plug's face as the touch hole. this made cleaning and fouling control as easy as can be. that's it for barrel. the lock's pan needs to be placed just under that touch hole, for reliable ignition. the old ways still work quite well.

[waksupi]

rfd,

Am I seeing this correctly?

Engineers seem to over think stuff on occasion.


That pretty well covers it. This has been one of the better pro's and con's threads on this I've seen.

As far as liners go, they are once again, pretty much of a modern thing. Old guns weren't lined unless the vent had burned out too far. In my opinion, if they will self prime, they are burned out, and dangerous to shoot.
My reason for putting vents in my rifles and fowlers is for the advantage of moving the main powder charge closer to the flash. I'm a competition shooter, and any speed advantage counts to me.

[taco650]

re: "... boring a hole in the side of the barrel right where the bore ends, threading it so a pan assembly can be screwed into to it with the hole showing ..." - with a flintlock, the pan is integral to the lock and not the barrel. the flintlock barrel typically was, and can still be, as simple as a tube (rifled or not) ending with a screwed-in breech plug/tang, and a small hole drilled right in front of the breech plug's face as the touch hole. this made cleaning and fouling control as easy as can be. that's it for barrel. the lock's pan needs to be placed just under that touch hole, for reliable ignition. the old ways still work quite well.

Thanks for the clarification on pan locations. I've never really looked over a flintlock closely so the "anatomy" of the lock area is a bit foreign to me. After reading your explanation, I have to agree that the standard breech system seems "mo betta".

[Whiterabbit]

When I run in to that, I drill in to approximately half way across the breech face, and then install the vent. Works fine, and gives a smidgen of space there for when you dry ball, and need to poke a few grains of powder in the vent. Not that I have ever had to do that, mind you.

I have never once dry-balled.




....now, three or four times......

[kens]

That picture of the 'traditional' flat faced breech plug has the touch hole too far forward.
The touch hole center should be flush or a bit below the flat face breech plug. Then a drill or file can open up a passage (to center of bore) on the breech face for the flame to travel.
The touch hole can be drilled with a small drill to the breech, and a larger drill to make the outside 'cone' of sorts. This works quite well if the center of the hole aligns with the center line of pan/frizzen. If you shoot it enough to wear out the touch hole you can easily install a liner at a later date.
It is important to mention the touch hole should align with center of pan/frizzen.

[rfd]

That picture of the 'traditional' flat faced breech plug has the touch hole too far forward.
The touch hole center should be flush or a bit below the flat face breech plug. Then a drill or file can open up a passage (to center of bore) on the breech face for the flame to travel.
The touch hole can be drilled with a small drill to the breech, and a larger drill to make the outside 'cone' of sorts. This works quite well if the center of the hole aligns with the center line of pan/frizzen. If you shoot it enough to wear out the touch hole you can easily install a liner at a later date.
It is important to mention the touch hole should align with center of pan/frizzen.

absolutely.

if lined, at least this ...
http://i.imgur.com/ejeM8AD.png

NOT this ...
http://i.imgur.com/yeDf7kk.png

[Earlwb]

I sort of prefer a hooked breech or wedges for holding the barrel on with. But I am not particularly fond of the patent breech per se, as it is harder to clean well. But I like having a threaded screw plug or threaded flash hole insert so I can clean the bottom out better. Plus getting to the bottom of the breech easily is great if you need to add powder from that end for any reason. Such as forgetting to pour in the powder charge and ramming a bullet home.

[kens]

absolutely.

if lined, at least this ...
http://i.imgur.com/ejeM8AD.png

NOT this ...
http://i.imgur.com/yeDf7kk.png

No, the touch hole should be further closer to the breech plug, even flush with the face of breech plug.
The touchhole should behind a patched ball, whether you powder charge or not.
you use a file or dremel to open a valley in the face of breech plug for more powder space at the vent.

[rfd]

No, the touch hole should be further closer to the breech plug, even flush with the face of breech plug.
The touchhole should behind a patched ball, whether you powder charge or not.
you use a file or dremel to open a valley in the face of breech plug for more powder space at the vent.

oh no, not for me, maybe for you, sir, but i've been there and done that with an unlined direct vent hole and i do NOT want the touch hole to go into the breech plug's threads, makes for issues of both ignition and cleaning. if a direct touch hole, dead in front of the plug's face is just fine (and good luck lining up that drilling chore). if a liner, i do not want the touch hole liner threads compromising the plug threads either. just my call from my experiences with touch holes and breech plugs.

when the drilled vent hole hits the plug face threads -

before, a pain to clean and ignition was spotty ...
http://i.imgur.com/2WIKb0U.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/5PPlLHm.jpg

after, dremeled the face for a more pronounced channel and both ignition and cleaning improved ...
http://i.imgur.com/GAxKpZC.jpg

[kens]

that bottom picture is how my own Tennessee rifle is set up.
Iy is fast and reliable.
I like that.
And, if you do happen to push a ball down there with no powder, you can trickle in enough priming powder to push the ball out without relying on a ball puller and all that pain.
Im getting real fast ignition with mine.

[rfd]

that bottom picture is how my own Tennessee rifle is set up.
Iy is fast and reliable.
I like that.
And, if you do happen to push a ball down there with no powder, you can trickle in enough priming powder to push the ball out without relying on a ball puller and all that pain.
Im getting real fast ignition with mine.

HAH! i dry balled that above barrel and cock eyed breech plug, and no way in h3ll could i prime the ball out ... in fact, i couldn't pull it out either, using near 200lbs of weight and hanging off a ceiling joist. THAT prompted the plug removal. i will NEVER have a touch hole or liner compromise a breech plug, but hey, that's just me.

http://i.imgur.com/x3l024A.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/i2GHncS.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/GIrNVc1.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/gBXPeNA.jpg

[rfd]

a cheap (but good) investarms .50 hawken, lined touch hole and patent breech, patched ball over 60g 3f down the tube and a few grains of 3f in the pan ... it ain't all that slow. i see no need for 4f pan powder.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nPpbi9G1-Q0

[rfd]

companion to the above vid - cool sequence - if you enlarge the video at youtube, watch the cock, frizzen and pan in action.

cock drops, flint pushes the frizzen open, flint scrapes sparks off the frizzen, pan powder ignites, chamber powder ignites, gun goes boom.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RaaH3QFNiIQ

[C.F.Plinker]

Both of my Lyman's ( flint and percussion) have the patent breech. I made up a cleaning rod which has 10-32 threads on one end for the brush or jag and 8-32 threads on the other end for a patch loop. A standard loop is small enough that a patch can get all the way to the bottom of the patent breech. Yes I fold the patch so that 2nd base covers home plate, insert it into the loop with the long edge on top, then bring the 3rd base corner over the end of the loop so that the entire loop is covered by the patch. If you have a patent breech you might give this a try.

[taco650]

a cheap (but good) investarms .50 hawken, lined touch hole and patent breech, patched ball over 60g 3f down the tube and a few grains of 3f in the pan ... it ain't all that slow. i see no need for 4f pan powder.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nPpbi9G1-Q0

That looks like its as fast as a percussion rifle! Very little delay!

[GREENCOUNTYPETE]

best thing I have found for dry ball , and wow did the kids give me a lot guns to fix this year , I think I pulled a dozen or more for 9 kids in one day

the Track of the wolf ball puller has the geometry correct , sharp , good bite

I have one that came in a clam shell packaged kit of ML accessories traditions maybe I forget the brand , the difference is day and night in the way they work the taper is all wrong on the clam shell packaged kit ball puller

also the TOW ball puller made a better patch worm than any I have found also I use it on a SS creedmoore rod with brass muzzle guard also found at TOW

[rfd]

i also like the TOW screw worms - the right size slim thread and a good long length. it do get used a fair amount!