PDA

View Full Version : Cast or JHP for defense?



Fleataxi
05-18-2008, 09:25 PM
I've got an interesting question for the forum.

I've been told that in the ,45acp round, a cast bullet (trunicated cone or round nose) will perform as well as a jacketed hollow point of equal weight as a defensive round.

I need opinions, citiations, etc.

I've been reloading for a short while, and a friend of mine got me started using recycled wheel weight 230gr truncated cone lead bullets in my Rock Island 1911 TAC for practice ammo. I bought a box of 100 200gr Speer Gold Dot bullets only to be told by the same friend that the cast bullets work equally well as defensive rounds since they mushroom on impact to about the same diameter as the JHP expands to.

Did I just waste $24?

I'm loading the 200gr Gold Dot over 6 grains of Ramshot ZIP for an expected velocity of 900 fps.

The cast bullet is a 230gr truncated cone over 5.5 grains of Ramshot ZIP with an expected velocity around 870 fps.

Fleataxi

Lead melter
05-18-2008, 09:48 PM
Fleataxi [gotta love the name], welcome to the board!

Many years have passed since John Browning introduced the world to the 1911 and the 45ACP, and many bad guys have had a more thorough introduction to said round. It has worked in RN FMJ configuration for almost a hundred years, and if it will work in FMJ it will also work in "cast boolit".

As far as expansion goes, that might be a bit iffy. The hardening of the alloy to get the boolit to hold shape, size, etc. will also work in opposition to the expansion idea. There are, however, ways to overcome this. The simplest being to cast just hard enough to retain the boolit integrity and test for expansion.

One of the standard recipes here is 50/50 wheelweight/pure lead for 45 and 9mm. I cast some .358" boolits a few weeks ago from a 158 grain SWC mold. Average weight was 166 grains. Loaded these atop 4 grains Unique for a 2" barrel Charter Arms. They were fired into a Cabela's catalog at 8 feet distance. I also fired a 125 grain JSP, a 140 grain cast HP, and a 130 grain ball load. None exited the catalog. The ball load penetrated the deepest at about 1", while the HP, JSP, and cast SWC each drove in about 3/4". The SWC expanded to almost 1", the JSP to about 3/4", and the HP simply lost the front of the slug.

Did one do better than the others? Expansion of the SWC was really good, but penetration also must be there.

Keep your 45 loads up about 800-900 fps, find a backstop and give it a try.

By the way, a purchase of projectiles is NEVER a waste of money.

Fleataxi
05-18-2008, 10:06 PM
leadmelter:

Some more info - the bullets are 100% recycled wheel weight, water quenched. No hardness tester, so no clue as to the actual hardness #.

BTW: Fleataxi is from "All Dogs Go to Heaven" - I'm a dog lover and had 3 big adorable mutts when I thought up the handle, and I've used it ever since.

Fleataxi

Ricochet
05-18-2008, 10:24 PM
Not a chance that quench hardened wheelweight boolits will expand in the .45. But even if they don't expand, I expect they'll be effective.

HeavyMetal
05-18-2008, 10:37 PM
If your gun will cycle semi wadcutter's relaiblely (100%) I'd go with one of those.

Had a young man do some testing for a science class a few years ago, he wanted do do something that involved shooting.

So his dad and I set up some plywood targets ( 3/4 inch thick 12X12 ) stacked 12 layers thick.

We shot them with 38 snubby, 45 ball and my load of 4.8 gr. WW452AA on a H&G 68 and a 45/70 contender.

Won't talk about the contender load it went through the plywood into the dirt bank we were using as a backstop followed along the grass like a gopher on steriods and exited the hill 25 yards down range with a divot the size of a cow pie! Bullet was my own casting 325 gr RCBS boolit!

The real surprise was that the H&G 68 went through 11 pieces of plywood the 45 ball only 9 1/2! Great demonstraion the kid set up!

He layed a bunch of duct tape along one side of the plywood stack and you could open it like a book during his presentation.

The cool part was the H&G 68 was not deformed in any way! Good sharp edge to cut a clean hole and plenty flat to transfer energy.

Just a thought.

randyrat
05-18-2008, 11:15 PM
Your best chance with a jury is to "laywer Up" and go with store bought bullets. Unless by self defense you mean against wild animals then i would use cast. I'm not even afraid of Big Foot or the Blue Hills moster hiking with my 45 and cast boolits..... Thats my opinion and i'm sticking to it.

James C. Snodgrass
05-18-2008, 11:21 PM
I'm with Randyrat on this if you shoot a thug it better be store bought or suffer the wrath of a ambulance chasin' dirt bag in court.

mooman76
05-18-2008, 11:31 PM
I'm not saying it couldn't or wouldn't happen but there has never been a documented case where they went after someone for using reloads in self defence. Personally I use factory loads for my self defence guns just for peace of mind but I wouldn't hesitate to use hand loads if I needed to.

carpetman
05-18-2008, 11:34 PM
This subject of store bought vs reloads in defense situations and the lawyer aspect has been often discussed. Our moderator who used to be Dep Al he is something else AL now was a detective and has been a witness in court many times----his take is the type ammo has never been an issue. You use a gun in defense and the ammo is not going to be a legal concern probably no more so than the brand of tires on your car if you run over somebody.

NSP64
05-18-2008, 11:41 PM
Won't matter as long as it's a .45:drinks:

MtGun44
05-18-2008, 11:41 PM
I would think that the main issue with cast would be overpenetration.

I LIKE "over" penetration when hunting, but in a public place where there may
well be others that are not bad guys. - it is not a good thing.

You must remember that every round fired has a lawyer attached - if you
kill the bad guy and the same bullet puts a 9 year old girl 50 yds away in a
wheelchair for life . . . . . . - more likely with hard cast boolits than JHPs.

I only carry factory JHPs in my sef defense CCW firearms.

If you worry about any of the "he shot my poor deceased client with DUM-DUM
BULLETS !!!!" - all you need is to get the local PD range office on the stand
and ask why they use these hollow point bullets - 'why to prevent
overpenetration and increase the safety of the public' is the typical answer.

Bill

runfiverun
05-18-2008, 11:42 PM
it is not what ya shot them with .its the ya shot them,
if you don,t want the bullets to go through the guy and a wall use the expandables
if you want penetration use the cast.

testhop
05-19-2008, 12:14 AM
i have used the 452460 and 452374 with 6.5 unique also i have the speer 200 h.p.if i was going use one for house defence i would use the speer just because of relible feed
as for the legal part the lawyers will say if you use handloads you are wrong eather cast or h.p. it is the same but i say be the only one talking when the police get there
I READ SOMEWHERE THAT A 9 M.M. MAY EXPAND BUT A 45WONT SRINK

GabbyM
05-19-2008, 12:47 AM
Gold Dots are a product of the FBI standards.

You're better off with a truncated cone flat point you can count on behaving in a predictable manner.

USAF trials back in the eighties. Showed a 9mm tcfp blows a larger hole in ballistic clay than a 45 round nose. Plus has more penetration. Probably why the standard issue 9mm for the M9 is a round nose from a century gone by. It does meet the NATO ball standard of penetrating 16 inches of spaced pine board. And not to forget kicks hard enough to cycle a MP-40. Good grief.

If you want to use store bought bullets get Hornady FMJ-FP.

For cast take a look at Saeco in the 45's. For 9mm it's harder to find. I managed to pick up a H&G #309 which is the Air force bullet just like the Hornady fmj-fp.
Balisti-Cast will make you a new one. Or a WFN in either caliber.

Lee and Saeco calling their 9mm offerings flat point are stretching the term a bit. More like RCBS accurate description of conical.

yondering
05-19-2008, 12:55 AM
Those 200gr Gold Dot's are a good bullet for defense, if pushed fast with top loads they do expand reliably and penetration will be less than a cast bullet but still plenty for defense purposes. Unless you're just trying to keep recoil down, you can (and should, for hollow points) do better than 900 fps for that 200gr bullet. If your 1911 is the full size with the 5" barrel, you should be able to push them to 1,000 or 1,050 fps without trouble. I use a hot load of Power Pistol with these for about 1,100 fps in my 1911. This is a top load for my gun, but recoil is by no means harsh or uncontrollable.
For comparison, Hornady offers loaded .45 ammo with their 200gr hp at 1,050 fps.

GabbyM
05-19-2008, 01:48 AM
I get a kick out of you all that have eveything in little boxes. You know just what you'll be shooting at right down to the time of day. You watch a Dirty Harry movie then spend the next twenty years searching for a bullet to shoot that naked rapist runing down the alley. lol
Just like the FBI.

The OP asked if he waisted his $24 dollars. I'll answer yes. Since you surely hope you never shoot that naked rapist anyway. Those golden bullets will get coroded in your pocket. One thing about a 45 is you don't need a fancy bullet to make them work.

I saw a few weeks ago where Winchester signed a contract with the FBI for bullets. A few million dollars for just a couple of years. Adds up fast at a dollar a pop. I'm just a poor boy that cooks my own.

JSnover
05-19-2008, 08:37 AM
Do you really save much by tailoring your own defensive loads, though? By the time you get it right you've been through a couple of casting sessions and burned some powder, primers, made up some sort of penetration test setup, etc.
That's all good stuff if you feel like doing it. On the other hand, unless you're living in a combat zone, one box of store-bought per year seems to be plenty. So far mine all end up in the backstop every spring.

mold maker
05-19-2008, 09:20 AM
If you carry enough gun, any load, shot by a well practiced shooter, will work.
Secret is, "ya gotta hit the bad guy", under stress and excitement.

JBL
05-19-2008, 10:16 AM
I think the main concern for a defensive cartage is not expansion, velocity or bullet design but reliability. HeavyMettle Touched on this. Especially if you’re new to hand loading, you will make mistakes and an armed confrontation is a bad place to do ammo testing. My suggestion (and what I do) is to keep your PDW loaded with what you normally shoot. I would rather target loads that I know works every time the some jewiz bang load that fails 1 out of a hundred shots.

Remember to that shot placement is much more critical that bullet choice. Seems to me that back in the 70’s there was an incident were a wealthy man (I think a Dupont) want nuts at his estate. The cops wouldn’t get within a few hundred yard of the mansion because he was armed with his 22 target pistol and was a mater class Bullseye shooter. They knew he could make body shots at 200 yards and head shots at a 100 yards.

My point is, yes you wasted your money unless you’re going to buy a few thousand of them. Keep your PDW loaded with what’s familiar and reliable and learn to put where it counts.

dwtim
05-19-2008, 10:28 AM
I don't trust my own hand loads enough to bet my life on them. I'd rather just buy a box of defense rounds and leave them next to the gun. I've only had a single misfire, still enough little problems that I wouldn't be comfortable with the situation. Maybe after another 10 years of loading I'll reconsider.

However... If I need ammo fast, I'll grab whatever is nearest.

Fleataxi
05-19-2008, 10:48 AM
A little more info might be in order.

1) I'm an experienced shooter - I hit what I aim at - period.

2) I was asking which was more efficient in taking down the BG - not which one the Prosecutor would prefer I carry., I live in rural NV, and the DA doesn't give a rip WHAT I shoot them with. If the shooting itself was righteous, he won't prosecute.

3) IF I carry reloads, I WILL make sure they're 100% reliable first.

That said, if both rounds are reliable accurate reloads, which one will work better at putting the bad guy down if I do my job?

If there isn't a significant difference, the wheel weight bullets are free, and I've no problem using them. If on the other hand, my firend was full of S@#t, I need to know.

Fleataxi

sniper
05-19-2008, 10:48 AM
On the Stopping Power forums, and in one of Evan Marshall's books, much has been made of the fact that "energy dump" with premium ammo was better than for solid bullets. The solid sometimes passes through the target, and "wastes"
its energy on the landscape beyond.

IIRC, another point was made: the nose shape is largely irreleveant. A round nose projectile is as effective/ineffective as a SWC design, given the same velocities, despite what we were told for years by gun writers. Apparently, the round nose cartridge's reputation as a "widowmaker" for its users was related more to velocity than nose shape. Not sure I totally agree, but it does cause a fellow to think.

But law enforcement officers of yore, Skeeter Skelton and Bill Jordan notably, used handloaded ammo and SWC bulets with good effect. Chances are, if those two were alive today, they would see the advantages of today's excellent factory rounds, and carry them in their duty weapons.

Elmer Keith was perhaps atypical. His philosophy seemed to be: get a bullet of sufficient weight to the target with sufficient velocity, and it will be effective. His successes with a handgun resulted from intimate knowledge of his gun/cartridge/loads, and excellent shooting skills. I'll bet he practiced a lot!

I have to admit, though , the SWC designs just LOOK cooler:-D

In a .45, either cast or factory jhp @~800- 1000fps will be effective. It appears that a solid bullet's reasonable effectiveness is reached at about 1000fps, +-. Most everything above that is just velocity, blast and flash.

Thanks to the life's work of Marshall and others, the ammo manufacturers now produce rounds that are much more effective than in years past.

And there are several factory bullet designs for the .45 that will expand reliably; one was called the "flying fat ashtray".

IMO, practice plenty and enjoy your cast loads of any caliber, but choose one proven, reliable factory load for more serious purposes.

Just my $.02 worth.

Freightman
05-19-2008, 10:55 AM
Real life event, a friend had a meth head kick his door down and was welding a 8" knife, the friend tripple taped him with a Bersa .380 with FMJ ammo. Results were instant "DEAD" on the spot.
What is my point? not the size of the hole it is where you put them. His 380 did more good in the center of the chest than a 45 through the sholder or leg. Shot placement can only be reliable if you practice.
He practiced with a pistol he was comfortable with not a cannon he is 5'3" 130# smaller hands than my 5' wife cann't handle a big pistol use what you are comfortable with.

Ricochet
05-19-2008, 10:57 AM
You watch a Dirty Harry movie then spend the next twenty years searching for a bullet to shoot that naked rapist runing down the alley. lol
Do that in Tennessee and you'll be tried for murder. Only time you're justified in using (or drawing) your gun is when you or someone else is in imminent danger of death or serious bodily harm. Shoot a naked guy running away and you've become the criminal.

The Massad Ayoob stuff about legal trouble from using handloads is silly speculative tripe. Probably written in hopes that it would get him some profitable legal consultation business.

The reliability issue is the critical one, especially with autoloaders. I'd a lot sooner trust a handload I'd run thousands of rounds of through my pistol without a hitch than some expensive premium factory load I'd only shot a small number of. Not every factory load will feed reliably. (Nor every handload.)

Boomer Mikey
05-19-2008, 11:08 AM
I load Winchester factory silvertips in the magazines and put a Glasser safety round in the chamber. If I only need one, it's not going to go through the walls and since it's in the chamber I don't need to worry if it's going to feed. No issues about safety with a DA auto with the safety on. The 9mm 92SBF is a little low on energy, but that can be good in a home defense situation. In the field, I carry a 5 1/2", 7 1/2" or 8 3/8" 44 Magnum with 290 grain hard cast +P hand loads for the nasty critters that want to hirt me.

Thank goodness I've never needed to use them,

Boomer :Fire:

Scrounger
05-19-2008, 11:19 AM
On the Stopping Power forums, and in one of Evan Marshall's books, much has been made of the fact that "energy dump" with premium ammo was better than for solid bullets. The solid sometimes passes through the target, and "wastes"
its energy on the landscape beyond.

IIRC, another point was made: the nose shape is largely irreleveant. A round nose projectile is as effective/ineffective as a SWC design, given the same velocities, despite what we were told for years by gun writers. Apparently, the round nose cartridge's reputation as a "widowmaker" for its users was related more to velocity than nose shape. Not sure I totally agree, but it does cause a fellow to think.

But law enforcement officers of yore, Skeeter Skelton and Bill Jordan notably, used handloaded ammo and SWC bulets with good effect. Chances are, if those two were alive today, they would see the advantages of today's excellent factory rounds, and carry them in their duty weapons.

Elmer Keith was perhaps atypical. His philosophy seemed to be: get a bullet of sufficient weight to the target with sufficient velocity, and it will be effective. His successes with a handgun resulted from intimate knowledge of his gun/cartridge/loads, and excellent shooting skills. I'll bet he practiced a lot!

I have to admit, though , the SWC designs just LOOK cooler:-D

In a .45, either cast or factory jhp @~800- 1000fps will be effective. It appears that a solid bullet's reasonable effectiveness is reached at about 1000fps, +-. Most everything above that is just velocity, blast and flash.

Thanks to the life's work of Marshall and others, the ammo manufacturers now produce rounds that are much more effective than in years past.

And there are several factory bullet designs for the .45 that will expand reliably; one was called the "flying fat ashtray".

IMO, practice plenty and enjoy your cast loads of any caliber, but choose one proven, reliable factory load for more serious purposes.

Just my $.02 worth.


I can't buy that either, Sniper. I'm a great believer in the laws of physics, nobody's figured out a way to beat them yet. Look at Ballistic Co-efficient: A round-nosed bullet loses more velocity in air than a spitzer point bullet does; yet it loses less velocity (is more ballisticlly efficient) than a wad-cutter or semi-wadcutter bullet. Why would we expect that trend to reverse itself in water, ballistic jelly, or human flesh? And that has been demonstrated many times, round-nose penetrates better than square nose. And this lesser degree of penetration (and velocity) can only be explained by the transfer of the bullet's inherited energy to the medium through which it is passing. Sure, bullet construction is a factor but all events must be true to the laws of physics. An FMJ bullet will penetrate more than a lead bullet of the same size, shape, and velocity; a bullet can be designed to expand and fragment or expand and hold together, like the Black Talon. These are ways in which the bullets energy is transferred to the medium. Hollow points are another method of doing it.

runfiverun
05-19-2008, 11:39 AM
what i use in my a.c.p. revolver. in my home
gold dots.
if i take it in the hillls or on the wheler it is loaded with 250 rnfp cast.....

9.3X62AL
05-19-2008, 11:44 AM
Factory vs. reload "issues" are and were non-issues in criminal investigations I was involved in (Riverside County, CA). That question never came up, in any form. If one of our deputies shoots, his weapon is checked to verify that approved ammo was carried and fired. I don;t know of a case on my department where that issue arose.

If the shooting is justified, no criminal sanction gets applied. Regardless how justified the shooting was, you WILL be sued. The lawyers threaten and storm and bully, then settle with your homeowner's insurance carrier for between $5K and $15K--then go away. The assailant's survivors get enough cash for a new set of 22's and spinners on their roach coach, and they also go away happy. Total kabuki theater.

I carry the same ammo my agency authorizes, WW Ranger SXT. I've seen its results at autopsy and in ERs, good enough for me. The stuff is utterly reliable and the recovered bullets look like ad copy for Winchester ammo. I develop handloads that closely duplicate factory ammo ballistics, and practice with that. I also have run 200 rounds+ of the factory stuff through each carry gun to verify its reliability.

Fleataxi
05-19-2008, 12:03 PM
sniper:
And there are several factory bullet designs for the .45 that will expand reliably; one was called the "flying fat ashtray".

The Corbon "flying ashcan" used the Speer 200gr JHP that Speer calls the "Gold Dot" - I bought a box of 100 bullets, and can closely duplicate the external ballistics with the powder I'm using. The Corbon ammo sells for over a buck a round, and the bullets were $24/100, which means my reloads cost around 50 cents per round.

The other load is a truncated cone 230gr bullet made from recycled wheel weight (water quenched) over 5.5 grains of Ramshot ZIP. I'm currently loading 6 grains of ZIP in the Gold Dot load, with a max load of 6.4 grains, but the book says it'a already at 900fps, and I"ll only gain an additional 100 fps by going to the max load.

Sounds to me is what everyone is saying is that the bullets are less critical than shot placement, which I already knew. I just wanted a second check on my friend's opinions before I staked my life on a cast bullet in my reloads.

Fleataxi

yondering
05-19-2008, 12:23 PM
Sounds like the short answer is that your cast bullets will work, just don't expect them to expand at all. I'd expect them to penetrate deeper with a narrower wound channel than the Gold Dots. Given proper shot placement, that should be fine.

I've read the same thing about nose shape being irrelevant, and don't believe it at all. I've seen from my own experiments that a flat nose cast makes a bigger hole in soft stuff than a round nose cast. The LBT style bullets are highly effective for hunting, but I don't read too much about round noses (cast of course) being great for hunting.

Ricochet
05-19-2008, 01:06 PM
Fleataxi, in an auto pistol it's a good idea to keep close to the momentum of the standard factory load for the caliber. That's what the recoil spring's designed for. Increase that and the impact of the slide against the frame goes up disproportionately fast as the momentum goes up, as the recoil spring absorbs a fixed amount of energy. In the .45, I try to more or less duplicate factory hardball ballistics.