Shooting in Orlando

[Ole Joe Clarke]

There has been a shooting in a bar in Orlando, around 2 am local time. Many people killed or injured.

Please pray for the folks injured.

I find it ironic that in a tragedy such as this the first thing that is asked for is prayer, then when the dust settles Christians are mocked for our belief in God. How sad.

Have a blessed day,

Leon

[w5pv]

Was that the ***** bar that got shot up?

[Artful]

https://www.yahoo.com/news/orlando-fla-ap-gunman-wielding-000000701.html


an hour ago
What we know





A gunman opened fire inside Pulse, a gay nightclub in Orlando, Fla., killing approximately 20 people and wounding 42 others, police said early Sunday.
The gunman, who was carrying an assault-style rifle, handgun and possibly an explosive device, is dead after exchanging fire with officers at 5 a.m.
The gunman had taken hostages after trying to flee.
The FBI is treating the shooting as an act of terrorism.
Police say the suspect, who has not been identified, is not from the Orlando area. Federal officials are investigating possible ties to radical terror organizations.
Witnesses at the club described a chaotic scene.
The mass shooting comes a day after Christina Grimmie, former contestant on “The Voice,” was shot and killed by a gunman outside an Orlando nightclub as she signed autographs for fans after a show. The gunman in that shooting committed suicide.

[Char-Gar]

I will say the denizens of this board are very predictable. When these many innocent people are killed by a Jihadi, the first words out of their mouths are anti-gay slurs. When I opened this thread that is what I expected to find, and sure enough there they are.

[458mag]

You are correct.
The issue is that human beings were killed, and also it is one more strike against our second amendment rights.

I have no time for hatred, or any myopic world view. People died at the hands of another person with a gun, and another brick has been place in the wall against the 2nd amendment .


Before you criticize what I have said read 1st John.

Yes as Christians we are to love all people. Even those who hate us, despise our beliefs and call us homophobes and haters because we are Christians and tell them what God says. And yes, ultimately, it will be us, God fearing, bible toting, second amendment supporting Christians that will be thrown to the lions for all of this.

[runfiverun]

sounds like we need to ban nightclubs in Orlando.
they seem to be gathering places for bullet magnets.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

ID'd !!!

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2016/06/12/omar-mateen-id-d-as-orlando-killer.html


TERRORIST?06.12.16 8:46 AM ET
Omar Mateen ID’d as Pulse Gay Club Killer in OrlandoA U.S. citizen born to Afghan immigrant parents has been reportedly named by law enforcement as the man who killed 20 and took others hostage last night.
Omar Mateen of Port Saint Luice, Florida has been identified as the gunman who killed 20 people at a Orlando nightclub, CBS News (https://twitter.com/DavidBegnaud/status/741978535749771268), the Washington Post (https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2016/06/12/orlando-nightclub-shooting-about-20-dead-in-domestic-terror-incident-at-gay-club/?hpid=hp_hp-top-table-high_orlandoshoot-430am%3Ahomepage%2Fstory&utm_term=.5d2149ba5073), and NBC News report (https://twitter.com/Tom_Winter/status/741987981150564352), citing law enforcement officials. Mateen is a U.S. citizen; his parents are from Afghanistan, CBS News reports. FBI Agent Ron Hopper told (http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/breaking-news/os-orlando-shooting-pulse-nightclub-story.html) reporters Mateen may have leanings towards Islamic extremism.

Mateen was armed with an assault rifle, a handgun, and what was feared to be an improvised explosive device. Mateen entered (http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2016/06/12/20-dead-in-attack-on-orlando-gay-club.html) Pulse club around 2 a.m. Sunday morning and began shooting. After most of the 320 people there escaped, Mateen took hostages from a group that was hiding in a bathroom. Shortly before 6 a.m., a SWAT unit breached the club and engaged Mateen in what's being called a protracted gun battle. Mateen was killed.

[Wis. Tom]

The religion of peace strikes again. That will be glazed over and the agenda of gun control will be pushed by the media. So sad.

[sparky45]

I will say the denizens of this board are very predictable. When these many innocent people are killed by a Jihadi, the first words out of their mouths are anti-gay slurs. When I opened this thread that is what I expected to find, and sure enough there they are.
I don't subscribe to the notion that the TWO above mentions of homosexual night clubs to be a slur, just an accurate description of the establishment.

[Piedmont]

I don't subscribe to the notion that the TWO above mentions of homosexual night clubs to be a slur, just an accurate description of the establishment.

I agree. It seems someone was expecting to find slurs so he found them.

[Artful]

I will say the denizens of this board are very predictable. When these many innocent people are killed by a Jihadi, the first words out of their mouths are anti-gay slurs. When I opened this thread that is what I expected to find, and sure enough there they are.

Please point out a slur in what I quoted! You seem to be painting with an awfully wide brush...

[Char-Gar]

Please point out a slur in what I quoted! You seem to be painting with an awfully wide brush...

Homo, *** and ***** are such slurs. I was not referencing your post. These fall into the same file folder as greasers, spics, chinks and n######.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

I don't subscribe to the notion that the TWO above mentions of homosexual night clubs to be a slur, just an accurate description of the establishment.

The mentions you mention were of "***** bar" and "gay club". There may well be equally loaded ways of describing what you believe in and/or enjoy. In fact I am sure there are. People may disagree with the habits of the victims, and are under no obligation to love them. It strikes me as a mighty funny hobby to have. There is nothing wrong with telling them so, if the subject comes up in conversation, though two tellings aren't any more likely to turn them straight than one, and seeking them out in public is intrusive. What is beyond dispute, though, is that apart from incidental offending just as common among the heterosexual, they were exercising freedoms they knew the law of their country gave them.

Looking at the religion of the perpetrator is looking at this the wrong way round, just like it would be in the not unlikely event that some demented Christian did the like. Mass shootings in the US seem to come from a wide range of supposed motivations. Even school shooters are so diverse that the Secret Service concluded there was no way of building a predictive profile. What appears to happen is that if an individual has it in him to kill large numbers of strangers. he finds whatever kind of "justification" is close to hand.

[gunoil]

Not gonna stop!

on pbs tv ,,,, last month the saudies are beheading gays in town square and hanging their bodies up for few days. I think that was Frontline pbs show. So, the muslem wanta be will keep doing it in usa.

[Artful]

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2016/06/12/omar-mateen-id-d-as-orlando-killer.html


http://cdn.thedailybeast.com/content/dailybeast/articles/2016/06/12/omar-mateen-id-d-as-orlando-killer/jcr:content/image.crop.800.500.jpg/48858199.cached.jpg
Omar Mateen, Terrorist Who Attacked Orlando Gay Club, Had Been Investigated by FBIMateen was a ‘known quantity’ to federal law enforcement before he killed 53 people in the worst mass shooting in U.S. history.
Omar Mateen of Port Saint Lucie, Florida, came to the attention of federal authorities twice prior to being identified as the gunman in the Orlando nightclub mass shooting, a senior law enforcement source told The Daily Beast.

Mateen killed 53 people and shot more than 100 in total at the Pulse gay nightclub early Sunday morning, in the deadliest mass shooting in modern American history.


The senior law enforcement source reports that Mateen became a person of interest in 2013 and again in 2014. The Federal Bureau of Investigation at one point opened an investigation into Mateen but subsequently closed the case when it produced nothing that appeared to warrant further investigation.


“He’s a known quantity,” the source said. “He’s been on the radar before.”

Mateen was a U.S. citizen; his parents are from Afghanistan, CBS News reports.

The senior law enforcement source told The Daily Beast that Mateen was born in New York and was married for a time to a woman from New Jersey.

Father Mir Mateen told NBC News (http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/orlando-nightclub-massacre/orlando-nightclub-shooting-emergency-services-respond-reports-gunman-n590446) that the sight of two men kissing angered his son.
“We are saying we are apologizing for the whole incident,” the father added. “We weren’t aware of any action he is taking. We are in shock like the whole country.”

The attack, he said, “has nothing to do with religion.”

FBI Agent Ron Hopper told reporters Mateen may have had leanings toward Islamic extremism. The law enforcement source told The Daily Beast there is no immediate indication that Omar Mateen had any direct connection to ISIS.
The source did note that ISIS recently declared online that its followers should mount attacks to mark the approach of the holy month of Ramadan.

The message (http://www.reuters.com/article/us-mideast-crisis-islamicstate-idUSKCN0YC0OG) came in an audio recording from spokesman Abu Mohammed al-Adnani, released in May. Muslims around the world fast during Ramadan in honor of the first revelation from God to Muhammad. The terrorist group believes it to be a particularly opportune time for attacks.
“Ramadan, the month of conquest and jihad. Get prepared, be ready...to make it a month of calamity everywhere for the non-believers...especially for the fighters and supporters of the caliphate in Europe and America,” Adnani said.



Mateen—who was armed with an AR-15-style assault rifle and a handgun, according to Orlando’s police chief—entered (http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2016/06/12/20-dead-in-attack-on-orlando-gay-club.html) Pulse club around 2 a.m. Sunday morning and began shooting. After most of the 320 people there escaped, Mateen took hostages from a group that was hiding in a bathroom. Shortly before 6 a.m., a SWAT unit breached the club and engaged Mateen in what’s being called a protracted gun battle. Mateen was killed.

The deadliest single-person mass murder in American history before Orlando occured inBath, Michigan, in 1927 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bath_School_disaster), when a man bombed a school, killing 44 people.

[WILCO]

http://thumbs.dreamstime.com/z/buy-now-sign-vector-illustration-30520267.jpg

[Hogtamer]

Today a ***** bar, maybe next Sunday A big church full of worshippers. Nothing would make sons of mohammad happier. Coming to a venue near you!

[762 shooter]

Jihadists are equal opportunity murderers. A god fearing, church going, person has the same place on their food chain as an alternate life style practitioner.

Human beings were killed as result of Islamic teachings. The only thing that will appease them is for nonbelievers to die. Simple.

762

[Char-Gar]

I don't subscribe to the notion that the TWO above mentions of homosexual night clubs to be a slur, just an accurate description of the establishment.

Well Sparky, according to your way of thinking calling a Black nigh club a N....., Coon or Jigaboo bar would just an accurate description. None of this is acceptable.

[Artful]

Homo, *** and ***** are such slurs. I was not referencing your post. These fall into the same file folder as greasers, spics, chinks and n######.

Interestingly your the only one to mention all the other terms, and quite a few more spewed from your keyboard...

- only ***** and Homo and of course Gay were used.

If you look up ***** you will find it isn't always a derogatory term
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/*****


Usage Discussion of queerOver the past two decades, an important change has occurred in the use of ***** in sense 2d. The older, strongly pejorative use has certainly not vanished, but a use by some gay people and some academics as a neutral or even positive term has established itself. This development is most noticeable in the adjective but is reflected in the corresponding noun as well. The newer use is sometimes taken to be offensive, especially by older gay men who fostered the acceptance of gay in these uses and still have a strong preference for it.



http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/homo


Definition of homo

plural homos


: any of a genus (Homo) of hominids that includes modern humans (H. sapiens) and several extinct related species (as H. erectus and H. habilis)



2homo

noun, ho·mo
Definition of homo

plural homos
often disparaging


: homosexual (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/homosexual)


homo adjective, often disparaging





http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/gay



Simple Definition of gay



: sexually attracted to someone who is the same sex

: of, relating to, or used by homosexuals

: happy and excited : cheerful and lively



Source: Merriam-Webster's Learner's Dictionary




So out of the 3 terms used only Homo seems to be truly derogatory - just saying

and acceptable to who - you or us. I grew up quite a while ago and don't feel
like adding the PC terms being shoved at me by the Media (LBGTXYZ...)

[Yodogsandman]

Did I understand this right? Almost 4 hours after the shooting started, the SWAT team entered the building? Did they wait for the gunman to run out of ammo?

[Char-Gar]

Interestingly your the only one to mention all the other terms, and quite a few more spewed from your keyboard...

- only ***** and Homo and of course Gay were used.

If you look up ***** you will find it isn't always a derogatory term
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/*****


http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/homo


http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/gay



So out of the 3 terms used only Homo seems to be truly derogatory - just saying

and acceptable to who - you or us. I grew up quite a while ago and don't feel
like adding the PC terms being shoved at me by the Media (LBGTXYZ...)

Well, if you look up N*****, you will find it isn't always derogatory either. I guess anybody can call anyone anything they want in America and I will defend their rights to do so. However, I will call out people who use hateful slurs whenever I want to, as that is my right as well. People with hate of any kind in their hearts are not to be tolerated, no matter what kind of hate or who the hate. Hate is the destroyer of souls.

[Char-Gar]

Did I understand this right? Almost 4 hours after the shooting started, the SWAT team entered the building? Did they wait for the gunman to run out of ammo?

That is a good question that needs to be answered. It took the Police three hours to get their stuff together and decide talking with the dude was not a good idea. Meanwhile, he is inside the club killing people. Maybe it was a reasonable period of time under the circumstances, but it does raise a question in my mind.

[Artful]

Well as I can only assume what N***** is, I think I hear that all the time on youtube from posters of cities like Detroit, Atlanta, and Chicago so it must be socially acceptable. But I do agree that Hate is the destroyer of souls, and in the Orlando shooting it appears to come from the Religion of Peace once again. I don't condone any murders but I do find it upsetting that once again the children of Allah are doing it.

[starmac]

A sad day as far as the shooting goes, no matter who it was that was shot.

As far as calling them ***** or homos, that is exactly what they are, they are not GAY, that is a term they and others came up with so folks would see them as normal, but has a whole different meaning. I will continie to use gay as the word is intended, and call queers, queers.

[jmort]

There is so much irony when the Q-Tips smoke liberals. Just a factual observation. No more, no less. If your I.Q. is above par golf, then this will make sense. I just hope that all future muslim based mass murders, and there will be many more, only kill liberals. Please let only the liberals get slaughtered.

[LUCKYDAWG13]

My prayers go out to the victims and their families

[jmort]

It is also ironic that those engaged in faggotry got smoked as they like and support the liberal agenda that let this happen in the first place.

[blixen]

I will say the denizens of this board are very predictable. When these many innocent people are killed by a Jihadi, the first words out of their mouths are anti-gay slurs. When I opened this thread that is what I expected to find, and sure enough there they are.
+1 Lose the homophobia, folks. Families are devastated.

[sparky45]

Well, if you look up N*****, you will find it isn't always derogatory either. I guess anybody can call anyone anything they want in America and I will defend their rights to do so. However, I will call out people who use hateful slurs whenever I want to, as that is my right as well. People with hate of any kind in their hearts are not to be tolerated, no matter what kind of hate or who the hate. Hate is the destroyer of souls.

I agree with your last sentence, however, I can use whatever terms I choose to describe what I see or perceive without hate. YOU perceive what YOU think is hate, I can't help you there.

[jmort]

"Families are devastated."

^^^ You are entitled to your opinion, but you are not in charge of what people think. That you and the blowhard are touchy and overly sensitive is great, you all are better than everyone else, but that is your opinion. Lot of families all over the earth are devesatated today, for a lot of different reasons, other than this islamic mass murder. There is no sacred cow here.

[Handloader109]

I'll not step into this argument over terms, but would like to point out that this could have been any bar. I'm sure that you guys realize that a bar is like shooting fish in a barrel. One of the few places that in almost all states, you are prohibited to carry your gun. And I guess this chap was well aware of this fact. And even though a goodly number of Muslims drink alcohol or at least tolerate it in many parts of the world, it is prohibited and could have been a factor.
Btw, a lot of the LGBT community are 2nd ammendment proponents. A lot of them have good reason to carry. And 762 has it right, they want to kill all of us.

[runfiverun]

the MSN report has the headline as 'GAY nightclub'.
I figure that the mostly socialist news would have the 'accepted' term correct.

[sparky45]

I'll not step into this argument over terms, but would like to point out that this could have been any bar. I'm sure that you guys realize that a bar is like shooting fish in a barrel. One of the few places that in almost all states, you are prohibited to carry your gun. And I guess this chap was well aware of this fact. And even though a goodly number of Muslims drink alcohol or at least tolerate it in many parts of the world, it is prohibited and could have been a factor.
Btw, a lot of the LGBT community are 2nd ammendment proponents. A lot of them have good reason to carry. And 762 has it right, they want to kill all of us.

I don't know that as a statement in fact, but I certainly think some are 2nd amendment proponents.

[montana_charlie]

Homo, *** and ***** are such slurs. These fall into the same file folder as greasers, spics, chinks and n######.
Except that they don't fall into that same classification.

You may have seen the acronym LGTBQ as something the 'gay community' strongly identifies with.

Homo is a shortening of homosexual, which is a clinical term.
*** hasn't been mentioned, but is commonly used in conversation.
But, ***** is why 'Q' exists in the acronym.

As defined by those who ARE part of the LGBTQ movement, "***** is anything that exists outside of the dominant narrative,"



That is a good question that needs to be answered. It took the Police three hours to get their stuff together and decide talking with the dude was not a good idea. Meanwhile, he is inside the club killing people.
On this, I can agree with you.

Was he actively shooting people inside the club during the hours needed for cops to make their move ... or did they go when a flurry of gunfire erupted?

Secondly, of the many killed and woulded, how many were hit by police bullets during 'the gunfight'?

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Not gonna stop!

on pbs tv ,,,, last month the saudies are beheading gays in town square and hanging their bodies up for few days. I think that was Frontline pbs show. So, the muslem wanta be will keep doing it in usa.

And all it has got them is a fifth the homicide rate of the US. You don't remember the people clamouring on this board for executions to be public in the US, or just a few days ago to have Hilary Clinton executed for being Hilary Clinton? Do I have to remind you how some people have died in Islamic countries? It seems to me that people on this board will let no sect, minority or set of victims go to waste, when they might be useful for posters making statements about themselves.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_projection

[Artful]

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2016/06/florida-shooting-attack-orlando-nightclub-160612080037582.html


President Obama says shooting at gay nightclub in Florida was "an act of terror and an act of hate".

Fifty people have been killed, including the assailant, and at least 53 injured in an attack inside a gay nightclub in the US state of Florida, authorities said, in the worst mass shooting in US history.

Officials said on Sunday morning that the lone shooter, who was armed with an assault-type rifle, a handgun and some type of other device, died in a shootout with the police force at the Pulse nightclub.

US news networks and a Congress member have identified the gunman as Omar Mateen, a 29-year-old US-born man with Afghan origins. Investigators have yet to issue official confirmation.

In a televised statement, President Barack Obama condemned the shooting as "an act of terror and act of hate", calling the shooter "a person filled with hatred".

"As Americans, we are united in grief and outrage," he said, adding that the attack is "a further reminder of how easy it is for someone to get their hands on a weapon" and commit violence in the US.

Florida Governor Rick Scott has declared a state of emergency in Orlando.

Ron Hopper, of the US Federal Bureau of Investigation, said it was too early to say if the incident is linked to "terrorism or hate crime".

In an interview with NBC (http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/orlando-nightclub-massacre/orlando-nightclub-shooting-emergency-services-respond-reports-gunman-n590446), Mateen's father, Mir Seddique, said his son got angry when he saw two men kissing in Miami a couple of months ago and that may be related to the shooting.

The attack "has nothing to do with religion", the father said.

Orlando Police chief John Mina described the shooting as "one of the worst tragedies we have seen", adding that police officers "were shaken by what they have seen inside the club".

"It's a tragedy not only for the city but the entire nation," he said. "Just a look into the eyes of our officers told the whole story."

The injured, many in critical condition, were transferred to nearby hospitals. Among those injured was one police officer, whose kevlar helmet was hit by a round from the suspect.

"This did turn into a hostage situation. At approximately 05:00 hours [09:00 GMT] this morning, the decision was made to rescue hostages that were in there," Mina said in an earlier press conference on Sunday.

As the shooting occurred, the nightclub urged patrons to "get out" and "keep running" in a post on its Facebook page.

One witness, who said he was inside the building during the incident, said he heard about 40 shots being fired.

Christopher Hansen said he was in the VIP lounge of the club when he heard gunshots. He continued to hear shooting even after he emerged and police urged people to back away from the club. He saw the wounded being tended to across the street.

"I was thinking, 'Are you kidding me?' So I just dropped down. I just said, 'Please, please, please, I want to make it out,'" he said. "And when I did, I saw people shot. I saw blood. You hope and pray you don't get shot."

Police said they carried out a "controlled explosion" at the club hours after the shooting broke out, while entering the nightclub.

Video posted online showed a large number of police and emergency vehicles outside the nightclub, following the shooting.

The nightclub shooting came just a day after a man thought to be a deranged fan fatally shot Christina Grimmie, a rising singing star who gained fame on YouTube and as a contestant on The Voice, while she was signing autographs after a concert in Orlando.


I love how it has nothing to do with religion says his father. But he saw something months ago and is now shooting up the club. Please.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Except that they don't fall into that same classification.


They do in the minds of the people soiling themselves with abuse, who don't have much going for them except being white and straight, and want to convince themselves that all that locker-room stuff was just a youthful phase.

I wonder why anybody would expect those victims to care more about your rights than you do about theirs?

[JeffinNZ]

The hatred being spoken in this thread by "good Christian folk" is no less vile than the act that has by perpetrated in Florida.

[AZ-JIM]

I find it ironic that the woman who owns the club started it in memory of her brother who died from AIDS. So she opens a club to perpetuate the type of lifestyle that killed her brother......makes perfect sense

az-jim

[starmac]

BiS, I have to wonder just what you did in the locker room, that was explained away as just a youthful phase?? I do recall peering into the girls locker room a few times, I reckon that could be called a youthful phase, but sure wasn't anything ***** about it.

[montana_charlie]

I'll not step into this argument over terms, but would like to point out that this could have been any bar
Yeah, but it wasn't just any bar.

The gunman's father, Seddique Mateen, appears to reside in Florida, but is said to be presently running for office in Afghanistan.
Seddique told NBC News that the sight of two men kissing angered his son.
http://www.weaselzippers.us/276782-father-of-orlando-terrorist-omar-mateen-is-running-for-president-of-afghanistan/


Another funny twist:
Apparently the guy was working for a company contracted to the US government to transport illegal aliens.
http://www.weaselzippers.us/276856-terrorist-worked-for-security-company-responsible-for-transporting-illegal-aliens/

[shoot-n-lead]

They do in the minds of the people soiling themselves with abuse, who don't have much going for them except being white and straight, and want to convince themselves that all that locker-room stuff was just a youthful phase.

I wonder why anybody would expect those victims to care more about your rights than you do about theirs?

You make a good point...that being the case...I don't expect them to care about my rights as I certainly don't care about theirs...as far as recognizing their "gay rights"...I will leave that to those of you in liberal Europe, to promote. And, I will also leave it to y'all to promote the love and acceptance of Islamic terrorist...as you have been doing, at the expense of your society.

When you want to blast what goes on in this country, be sure that you can give a successful example of how it was handled differently in your country. I will put what goes on in this country up against your country or any in Europe...as to which has the tenants for building the strongest society. Our problem, now, is that we have a lot of liberal minded folks such as has destroyed Europe...trying to destroy those tenants...and if allowed to accomplish this, we will turn into the sewer that Europe has become.

[Blackwater]

Char-Gar makes a good point that makes a lot of sense, IMO, but the REASON he makes sense is that his point has simple human respect for even those we believe are errant in their ways. Since we've all been errant in our times, it just follows that to receive forgiveness, we're to practice decency and a reasonable amount of tolerance in our own daily lives.

And the usage of language today, what with the de-constructing of almost all "rules of civility," means that some see certain terms as derogatory if they've been around long enough to have seen their origins, while others, who came along later, and simply grew up with these terms in common parlance, don't see them as "derogatory" necessarily. Such is the corruption of even our language today. And others, who simply think they're right and can't or don't want to see any other side simply regard it as "the way things just are."

If I, as a southern boy, used the term "n******," it wouild be seen in a very different light than if someone from CA said it.

Thus, with the infuriation that naturally springs from repeated incidents like this by jihadists, mixed with the natural and inevitable misunderstanding due to the differences in perceptions about the use of certain words in describing the events that transpired, what else would naturally result but arguments like the above, which are "much ado about nothing," as ol' Shakespeare put it.

And Char-Gar is right about its coming to churches. Whenever I'm in church today, and for the last 20 years, I'm armed. Not as heavily as I'd like to be, but I refuse to put myself in a position of defenseless victim, even when worshiping. A friend of mine in MS had a local church near his own have someone walk into the church with a backpack, and one of the members saw a gun in it, and jumped him, with other members jumping in after him, and together, they subdued the man without anyone's being injured, except as might be expected in any physical struggle. They averted what surely appeared to be an attempt at a mass murder setup!

The would-be assailant had a short barreled, folding stock "assault rifle" of some sort in the backpack, along with a pistol, and extra clips for each. Looks like he was planning to mow the whole congregation down, but was simply foiled by alert members and instant reactions. My friend's preacher often carries in a shoulder holster in the pulpit! He and some others have come up with a plan to deal with any possible repeats of such things, and several carry in church, and sit in pre-arranged spots that would offer the best tactical positions to deal with any such efforts in their own church. Beats the heck out of creating masses of defenseless victims, I think! And it may offend some's delicate sensibilities, but in our world today, with its weak to non-existent response to terrorism, it makes sense, and I don' think God expects us to sacrifice ourselves, or risk same, at ANY point in our lives ..... even in church. Others will disagree, naturally, and that's their prerogative, but even in their church, they don't spread the word who or how many are carrying, just to avoid the inevitable dissension. Such is the environment of today, that the protected don't even WANT to know they're being protected!

We truly live in very strange times, when everything seems to be turned on its head. If there's any "sign of the times," this has to be one of, if not the greatest.

[Geezer in NH]

Ban Mudslime terrorists born here or not will work not unless they are deported or in jail.

Remember the Boston Bombings

[jmort]

"The hatred being spoken in this thread by "good Christian folk" is no less vile than the act that has by perpetrated in Florida."

Seriously??? Posting whatever is morally equlivant to murdering 50 plus people. One of the most idiotic statements I have ever seen.

[garym1a2]

I think shooting started at 2am and SWAT went in at 5AM. I wonder why 3 hours? From Police station to club is only 1 mile, the main Shieff station is only 4 miles away.
​
Did I understand this right? Almost 4 hours after the shooting started, the SWAT team entered the building? Did they wait for the gunman to run out of ammo?

[Polecat]

You'al need to tahe this thread to the pit

[richhodg66]

It's interesting to note the guy had been being watched by the FBI for associations with a terrorist suicide bomber, I read. Then it goes on to say he purchased the guns legally. Kinda blows that "universal back ground checks work" BS out of the water, huh?

Much as the mainstream media likes to vilify the NRA, I keep waiting for someone to say he was a member. Oh wait, NRA members don't do stuff like that.

If the FBI had been keeping an eye on him, he should have been locked up or at least no allowed to pass a background check.

[condorjohn]

Was this bar a "gun free zone"?

[jmort]

"You'al need to tahe this thread to the pit"


​Correct, I assumed it was until I read this post. Definite Pit stuff.

[fatnhappy]

Was this bar a "run free zone"?


Might have been. Who's to say the purveyor of peace didn't chain the other exits before going in the front door.

[DCP]

"You'al need to tahe this thread to the pit"


​Correct, I assumed it was until I read this post. Definite Pit stuff.

Yes this belongs in the pit. I really dont understand why it is not

[sparky45]

"The hatred being spoken in this thread by "good Christian folk" is no less vile than the act that has by perpetrated in Florida."

Seriously??? Posting whatever is morally equlivant to murdering 50 plus people. One of the most idiotic statements I have ever seen.
I couldn't agree more; AND it's from a "moderator emeritus" no less.

[500MAG]

Today a ***** bar, maybe next Sunday A big church full of worshippers. Nothing would make sons of mohammad happier. Coming to a venue near you!
I believe that the choice of a gay establishment had nothing to do with his hatred of gays but more to do with his desire to cause more of a wedge between Americans. I also believe that's why he used firearms rather then pulling a Mcveigh. Besides, if they showed up at the church I attend they wouldn't get far past the front door before they would be dropped, several of the members carry.

[Ithaca Gunner]

All I know is, there are 50 or more dead in what the media is calling the worst mass shooting ever in the U.S. We have an American/gun hating socialist globalist mooslime president. You do the math and guess who's gonna suffer for this.

[Outpost75]

MUST READ!!!

http://observer.com/2016/06/jihad-denial-kills-again/

Jihad Denial Kills…Again

By John R. Schindler (http://observer.com/author/john-r-schindler/) • 06/12/16 5:11pm

America just suffered our worst terrorist attack since 9/11. We need to start talking honestly about the enemy that keeps butchering Americans.
Tonight we burn illusions. A terrorist attack on a popular gay club in Orlando, Florida in the middle of the night ended before the dawn with the violent deaths of at least 50 innocents and the maiming of 53 more. This was the bloodiest terrorist attack on America since 9/11. The Pulse nightclub, something of an icon in Florida LGBT circles, was transformed into a charnel house.
The United States had been lucky, having avoided truly mass casualty terrorist incidents since that awful day 15 years ago, through a combination of luck, inept enemies, and excellent intelligence work. But the Orlando horror demonstrates that attacks on soft targets in public places can cause huge numbers of casualties, here as well as in Europe, like last November’s assaults on Paris that killed 130 people, 89 of them at the Bataclan theater, where a hostage situation resulted in a bloodbath. Something similar has just happened in Florida.

His statement (http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-orlando-nightclub-shooting-live-omar-mateen-got-very-angry-seeing-two-1465749495-htmlstory.html) that his son was triggered by seeing two men kissing in public seems unlikely to endear the family to the American public.

While the Paris attacks (http://observer.com/2015/11/jihadists-attack-paris-again-the-world-is-horrified/) were the work of nine terrorists, plus several others providing logistical support, so far only one killer has been identified in the Orlando atrocity. While there are reports of other shooters, these remain unconfirmed, and the sole terrorist definitely involved was Omar Mateen, born in this country in 1986 to immigrant parents from Afghanistan. He was killed by police at the end of the nightmare he inflicted on Orlando.

So far, his story is shaping up as the now-customary list of jihadist clichés. The 29-year-old went from a relatively normal American life towards extremism, winding up on the radar of the FBI more than once (http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2016/06/12/omar-mateen-id-d-as-orlando-killer.html) for his aggressive beliefs. A brief marriage failed, in part because he frequently beat his wife, she claims, asserting (https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/ex-wife-of-suspected-orlando-shooter-he-beat-me/2016/06/12/8a1963b4-30b8-11e6-8ff7-7b6c1998b7a0_story.html) that Mateen “was not a stable person.” A trauma like divorce leading to an embrace of jihadism is as common as can be in extremist circles.

The killer’s family has claimed (http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2016/06/12/omar-mateen-dad/85789320/) that their son’s terrible act had “nothing to do with religion” – again, following the script we have come to expect whenever a young person, usually male, brutally murders strangers in the name of Islam. While Omar Mateen’s father claims to be utterly mystified by his son’s actions, that assertion should be examined closely, since Seddique Mateen has publicly praised the Taliban in his home country – the very people the American military has been fighting since late 2001. In a truly bizarre twist, Mateen Senior claims to be the real president of Afghanistan. His statement (http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-orlando-nightclub-shooting-live-omar-mateen-got-very-angry-seeing-two-1465749495-htmlstory.html) that his son was triggered by seeing two men kissing in public seems unlikely to endear the family to the American public.

Wasting no time, the Islamic State has claimed responsibility (http://time.com/4365507/orlando-shooting-isis-claims-responsibility-terror/) for the attack on the Pulse nightclub. This should not surprise, since Mr. Mateen is reported to have declared allegiance to ISIS just before starting his rampage, and that group boasts of its pathological hatred of homosexuals. While all Islamists view gays and lesbians with a distaste that veers easily into violence, ISIS kills them so routinely – pushing them off buildings before the cameras, for instance – that it scarcely attracts attention any longer. Nobody should be shocked that a murderer swearing allegiance to ISIS makes gays his target – particularly during Ramadan, when the group has exhorted its followers to make war on infidels with enhanced intensity.
Whether Mr. Mateen had any bona fide contacts with the Islamic State is another question, one that investigators will want to answer properly. Since he was known to the FBI, it seems likely that U.S. intelligence had questions about that too. Regardless, since the Islamic State has commanded jihadist wannabes worldwide to take action by themselves, without any direct orders from the group, it’s quite possible that this killer was simply doing what he thought ISIS would want him to do in their name.

There’s also a disturbing question about how Mr. Mateen managed to keep working as a security guard despite having been twice investigated by the FBI. He had been employed since mid-2007 by G4S (http://m.palmbeachpost.com/news/news/local/fort-pierce-apartment-building-evacuated-has-ties-/nrfFf/), a private security firm that does work for the U.S. Government, including transporting illegal immigrants around the country for theDepartment of Homeland Security (http://www.judicialwatch.org/blog/2016/06/dhs-quietly-moving-releasing-vanloads-illegal-aliens-away-border/). How he kept this job even though he was known to Federal authorities for suspected ties to jihadism is something that has to be asked – and answered.

Within hours of the massacre, progressives and jihad apologists were insisting that the Orlando attack was “really” about guns – and certainly not about Islamism or jihadism. The Pulse massacre was about guns the way that the 9/11 attacks were “really” about box cutters and the 2013 Boston bombing was “really” about pressure cookers. There are millions of guns in Florida (the state has issued 1.3 million concealed carry permits alone) plus plenty of people who are not overly fond of gays. Why, then, was Omar Mateen the one who assaulted a gay club and shot dozens of innocent people?

How he kept this job even though he was known to Federal authorities for suspected ties to jihadism is something that has to be asked – and answered.

Based on his statement (http://www.cnn.com/2016/06/12/politics/orlando-shooting-obama-political-reaction/) on the atrocity, President Obama won’t be asking that question anytime soon. Although Mr. Obama demurred from some of his customary evasions, actually calling the attack an “act of terrorism,” he quickly defaulted to his usual talking points whenever radical Muslims butcher Americans: “hate” and “guns” were cited frequently by the president, while words such as “Islamism” and “jihad” were notable by their absence. Mr. Obama’s denial of the obvious, perfected during his two terms in the White House, appears unshakeable.
These evasions are met with derision by counterterrorism professionals, who deduced Mr. Obama’s agenda back in 2009 when he dismissed the Fort Hood massacre as “workplace violence.” Spies and cops have gotten used to this president’s persistent inability to call the enemy what he actually is, even though that enemy constantly calls himself such things. “What was he gonna call Orlando,” asked an old FBI friend just hours after the Pulse attack: “gayplace violence?”

It’s not difficult to determine what’s really going on here. Just two months before this attack, an Orlando mosque hosted an Islamic theologian known for pronouncing homosexuals as deserving of death. “Death is the sentence” they merit as an act of “compassion,” the imam stated. While his invitation got some coverage (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qBlwxqqAprQ)in Orlando media, one wonders what the mainstream media would have to say if a white preacher in Charleston had pronounced blacks as deserving the death sentence only two months before Dylann Roof murdered nine African Americans in a church.

For years, too many Americans – including the lion’s share of our elite media and most of our politicians — have been content to deny the obvious, namely that quite a few Muslims espouse beliefs that are deeply at odds with what the vast majority of Americans believe. Some of those Muslims openly advocate violence and, if they are otherwise maladjusted, the odds they may murder in the name of Islam increase commensurately. We need to have a robust national debate on this important issue. Donald Trump has opened the door to that discussion, in his customary brusque, ham-handed way. More tact is required, but we cannot put off talking about radical Islam and jihadism any longer.

After the Bataclan massacre last autumn, the French government in effect went to war with radical Islam, pledging a “merciless” (http://www.smh.com.au/world/paris-attacks-france-vows-merciless-response-to-unprecedented-atrocity-20151114-gkz28z.html) response to terrorism. This wasn’t just talk. Mass arrests of suspected radicals followed, dealing a serious blow to ISIS networks in the country. Paris meant business, finally.

In the aftermath of our own Bataclan, President Obama has offered his usual platitudes about “hate” and “guns.” This is escapism-as-counterterrorism-policy. Americans must demand better, including a reality-based assessment of our terrorism threat, from our next commander-in-chief. If we cannot name our enemy, we are already halfway to losing the war.

[JeffinNZ]

"The hatred being spoken in this thread by "good Christian folk" is no less vile than the act that has by perpetrated in Florida."

Seriously??? Posting whatever is morally equlivant to murdering 50 plus people. One of the most idiotic statements I have ever seen.

What I mean is there is a lot of feeling here that because the victims had a lifestyle that many do not agree with their lives don't matter. So when someone walks into a church and shoots dead 50 you won't be upset when I say "oh well, it's just a bunch of bitter clingers"? When we start valuing some lives over others we are into slavery territory and Hitler's domain.

[Gaseous Maximus]

Does anyone know if clubs that serve liquor in Florida are gun free zones? Also B.O.s reaction was about what I expected. Must of been hard on him, two of his protected classes of people.

[M-Tecs]

Does anyone know if clubs that serve liquor in Florida are gun free zones? Also B.O.s reaction was about what I expected. Must of been hard on him, two of his protected classes of people.

Yes they are gun free zones.

B.O's reaction was way less than he wanted but he knew (based on the facts) he could not push this one any further.

[jmort]

"So when someone walks into a church and shoots dead 50 you won't be upset when I say "oh well, it's just a bunch of bitter clingers"?"

Say what you will. I will not morally equate your statement, on an internet forum, with the actual murders or the muslim scum that did the killing.

[Finster101]

Does anyone know if clubs that serve liquor in Florida are gun free zones? Also B.O.s reaction was about what I expected. Must of been hard on him, two of his protected classes of people.

In Florida you can not legally carry in a "bar".

[JWFilips]

Just Obama's "brothers in arms" & he will spin it into a "Gun Issue" when it really is a "Muslim issue"

[montana_charlie]

In case somebody is keeping count, how many successful terrorist attacks have there been on American soil since Barack Hussein Obama took over maintaining our security?

Fort Hood, Texas; Boston, Massachusetts; Moore, Oklahoma; Chatanooga, Tennessee; San Bernadino, California; Orlando, Florida

Did I miss any?



Regarding the man responsible for our security:

Omar Mateen called the cops to pledge his fealty to ISIS as he was carrying out his mass murderer in Orlando early Sunday morning. Twelve hours later, the president of the United States declared that “we have no definitive assessment on the motivation” of Omar Mateen but that “we know he was a person filled with hate.”


Well, in spite of whatever spin Obama wants to put on Mateen's hate, it did have a particular direction ... which prompts a question about whether we should butt in on somebody else's business.

https://scontent-atl3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/13435587_1190866570932781_2760572930155031510_n.jp g?oh=e807393aa9a4159e858959fe79f18f65&oe=580A4297

[Artful]

too many
https://thesocietypages.org/feminist/files/2015/07/Mass-Shootings-Frequency.png

[white eagle]

Just Obama's "brothers in arms" & he will spin it into a "Gun Issue" when it really is a "Muslim issue"

so true
I had a feeling he would push his anti gun agenda
at this moment

[Artful]

Ronald Reagan (1981-1989) – saw 11 mass shootings with 101 fatalities
George H. W. Bush (1989-1993) – saw 12 mass shootings with 94 fatalities
Bill Clinton (1993-2001) – saw 23 mass shootings with 141 fatalities
George W. Bush (2001-2009) – saw 20 mass shootings with 158 fatalities
Barack H. Obama (2009-2015 – 7th Year) – saw 162 mass shootings with 864 fatalities - guess we can add another 50 souls to this total

[montana_charlie]

too many
https://thesocietypages.org/feminist/files/2015/07/Mass-Shootings-Frequency.png
I only see one Islamic terrorist represented in your graph ... and that is the guy at Chatanooga.
Between 2008 and today, is that the best you (and the feminists at the society pages) can do?

[Artful]

I only see one Islamic terrorist represented in your graph ... and that is the guy at Chatanooga.
Between 2008 and today, is that the best you (and the feminists at the society pages) can do?

NOT MY GRAPH, just one downloaded off the WWW
- and evidently you don't know how to read a graph.
The highlighted events are just singular events that were included on the graph. But feel free to do your own research.

[TXGunNut]

Dozens of Americans killed by an enemy jihadist and we waste keystrokes discussing the victims' sexual preference? Take a page from the rape victims' counselling handbook and don't blame the victim. No, I don't agree with their lifestyle but I certainly don't agree with them being executed by a jihadist....or anyone else.
Take care, my friends. Last thing we want is martial law at this point.

[JeffinNZ]

Ronald Reagan (1981-1989) – saw 11 mass shootings with 101 fatalities
George H. W. Bush (1989-1993) – saw 12 mass shootings with 94 fatalities
Bill Clinton (1993-2001) – saw 23 mass shootings with 141 fatalities
George W. Bush (2001-2009) – saw 20 mass shootings with 158 fatalities
Barack H. Obama (2009-2015 – 7th Year) – saw 162 mass shootings with 864 fatalities - guess we can add another 50 souls to this total



Now this is really interesting. I like to see it go back even further. For years I have been saying we a breeding an increasingly violent youth. Violent video games that detach kids from reality. It's nothing to with Presidents. It's everything to do with how society is operating.

[merlin101]

Dozens of Americans killed by an enemy jihadist and we waste keystrokes discussing the victims' sexual preference? Take a page from the rape victims' counselling handbook and don't blame the victim. No, I don't agree with their lifestyle but I certainly don't agree with them being executed by a jihadist....or anyone else.
Take care, my friends. Last thing we want is martial law at this point.

I can't agree more! I can't understand that lifestyle and don't condone it but that doesn't stop my friendship with Mike who just happens to be 'gay'.

[Pee Wee]

And again our grand wizerd president blames guns and not the extreme Islamic Terrorist.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

You make a good point...that being the case...I don't expect them to care about my rights as I certainly don't care about theirs...as far as recognizing their "gay rights"...I will leave that to those of you in liberal Europe, to promote. And, I will also leave it to y'all to promote the love and acceptance of Islamic terrorist...as you have been doing, at the expense of your society.

When you want to blast what goes on in this country, be sure that you can give a successful example of how it was handled differently in your country. I will put what goes on in this country up against your country or any in Europe...as to which has the tenants for building the strongest society. Our problem, now, is that we have a lot of liberal minded folks such as has destroyed Europe...trying to destroy those tenants...and if allowed to accomplish this, we will turn into the sewer that Europe has become.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incarceration_in_the_United_States

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Ronald Reagan (1981-1989) – saw 11 mass shootings with 101 fatalities
George H. W. Bush (1989-1993) – saw 12 mass shootings with 94 fatalities
Bill Clinton (1993-2001) – saw 23 mass shootings with 141 fatalities
George W. Bush (2001-2009) – saw 20 mass shootings with 158 fatalities
Barack H. Obama (2009-2015 – 7th Year) – saw 162 mass shootings with 864 fatalities - guess we can add another 50 souls to this total



The United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime makes it 12,253 intentional homicides in the USA in 2013 alone, which if it was an average through Mr. Obama's seven years would make mass shootings about four days' worth per annum, and equals a 9/11 every three months. It strikes me that anybody who doesn't see non-mass shootings by Americans as the main priority isn't grieving or outraged at those deaths, so much as trying to turn them to political advantage.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate

[Lonegun1894]

Interesting times and all that. I vote we all stay armed and alert, and keep our loved ones safe as best we can. This WILL get worse until we put a stop to it.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

BiS, I have to wonder just what you did in the locker room, that was explained away as just a youthful phase?? I do recall peering into the girls locker room a few times, I reckon that could be called a youthful phase, but sure wasn't anything ***** about it.

I do not come from any country in which athletes wear unusual underwear in an effort to avoid a visible panty line. Of course I don't want to imply anything about Americans or American athletes as a whole. I just mean to imply something about those with an exceptional desire to condemn homosexuals. Millions feel no desire to promote the practice, but just to leave them alone as long as they don't create any public nuisance.

[ArrowJ]

Dozens of Americans killed by an enemy jihadist and we waste keystrokes discussing the victims' sexual preference? Take a page from the rape victims' counselling handbook and don't blame the victim. No, I don't agree with their lifestyle but I certainly don't agree with them being executed by a jihadist....or anyone else.
Take care, my friends. Last thing we want is martial law at this point.

Yes! Two things that are not germane to this situation and yet will ironically be the primary focus: sexual preference and gun control.

[cbashooter]

I don't subscribe to the notion that the TWO above mentions of homosexual night clubs to be a slur, just an accurate description of the establishment.

if the club had African Americans in it and they called it the n-word Club it will be completely fine correct?
The statements never needed to be said and to me those members should be reprimanded by the moderators in my opinion because if they get out of the internet shows how narrow-minded a small portion of us conservatives are.

[cbashooter]

The United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime makes it 12,253 intentional homicides in the USA in 2013 alone, which if it was an average through Mr. Obama's seven years would make mass shootings about four days' worth per annum, and equals a 9/11 every three months. It strikes me that anybody who doesn't see non-mass shootings by Americans as the main priority isn't grieving or outraged at those deaths, so much as trying to turn them to political advantage.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate

It makes you wonder why eight years of the Obama Administration is causing the nation to be more violent?

[Ballistics in Scotland]

It makes you wonder why eight years of the Obama Administration is causing the nation to be more violent?

It isn't. Violent crime soared between 1960 and the 1990s, even faster than property crime, but both have declined steadily through the Obama years

[mold maker]

Declined --------Yes, along with morality, property values, wages, and respect for authority.

[Battis]

Violent crime soared between 1960 and the 1990s, even faster than property crime, but both have declined steadily through the Obama years
I'd like to see the details of those stats.

[UKShootist]

I think I am obliged to express my shock at the way this thread has run. This is a shooting activity forum heavily influenced by Christian values. 50 people murdered, more than that wounded by a religious maniac and yet (some) members seem more concerned about defending the use of words to describe the victims and their proclivities or other minority groups, and whether these words are offensive or not (when they know damned well they are), than the potential for further restrictions on freedom, firearms, and speaking the truth. Oh, nearly forgot, and pity and sorrow, for the victims and their relatives.

[sparky45]

It isn't. Violent crime soared between 1960 and the 1990s, even faster than property crime, but both have declined steadily through the Obama years

I would equate your facts to a set of statistics released by the Bureaucrats in DC that show the unemployment rate as 4.7% when over 90 million don't have jobs. So I wouldn't put a lot of trust in Bureaucrat statistics. Ask the good folks that live in Chicago, Detroit, ect about violent crime.

[sparky45]

if the club had African Americans in it and they called it the n-word Club it will be completely fine correct?
The statements never needed to be said and to me those members should be reprimanded by the moderators in my opinion because if they get out of the internet shows how narrow-minded a small portion of us conservatives are.
I don't see any contradiction of terms, what's your point?

[sparky45]

Interesting times and all that. I vote we all stay armed and alert, and keep our loved ones safe as best we can. This WILL get worse until we put a stop to it.

I agree but would add: this will not get better until AFTER the next revolution.

[BeeMan]

Dozens of Americans killed by an enemy jihadist and we waste keystrokes discussing the victims' sexual preference? Take a page from the rape victims' counselling handbook and don't blame the victim. No, I don't agree with their lifestyle but I certainly don't agree with them being executed by a jihadist....or anyone else.
Take care, my friends. Last thing we want is martial law at this point.

This.

[claude]

When these many innocent people are killed by a Jihadi

Innocent of what?

We are all guilty, all worthy of death. Whether they deserved to be shot in a bar is questionable but innocent they were not. Play Sodom and Gomorrah, get your dues.

[dtknowles]

I would equate your facts to a set of statistics released by the Bureaucrats in DC that show the unemployment rate as 4.7% when over 90 million don't have jobs. So I wouldn't put a lot of trust in Bureaucrat statistics. Ask the good folks that live in Chicago, Detroit, ect about violent crime.

There appears to be a lot you don't know about employment statistics.

Tim

[dtknowles]

I would equate your facts to a set of statistics released by the Bureaucrats in DC that show the unemployment rate as 4.7% when over 90 million don't have jobs. So I wouldn't put a lot of trust in Bureaucrat statistics. Ask the good folks that live in Chicago, Detroit, ect about violent crime.

There are over 100 million people who are under 18 or over 65 years of age but some of them work. Your 90 million number is not relevant.

Tim

[dtknowles]

Innocent of what?

We are all guilty, all worthy of death. Whether they deserved to be shot in a bar is questionable but innocent they were not. Play Sodom and Gomorrah, get your dues.

"Whether they deserved to be shot in a bar is questionable" questionable, questionable, you are saying that they might have deserved what they got????????? Ignorant.

Tim

[sparky45]

There appears to be a lot you don't know about employment statistics.

Tim
Right back at ya bro.

[FergusonTO35]

Dozens of Americans killed by an enemy jihadist and we waste keystrokes discussing the victims' sexual preference? Take a page from the rape victims' counselling handbook and don't blame the victim. No, I don't agree with their lifestyle but I certainly don't agree with them being executed by a jihadist....or anyone else.
Take care, my friends. Last thing we want is martial law at this point.


I think I am obliged to express my shock at the way this thread has run. This is a shooting activity forum heavily influenced by Christian values. 50 people murdered, more than that wounded by a religious maniac and yet (some) members seem more concerned about defending the use of words to describe the victims and their proclivities or other minority groups, and whether these words are offensive or not (when they know damned well they are), than the potential for further restrictions on freedom, firearms, and speaking the truth. Oh, nearly forgot, and pity and sorrow, for the victims and their relatives.

This^^

I understand and respect the fact that people have differing opinions on homosexuality, it has certainly been a hot topic in the USA for awhile now. I don't begrudge anyone for their feelings or beliefs even if I disagree with them. But, 50+ people just died a violent death. Can we not use some discretion given what just happened? Also, Cast Boolits is viewable by the general public. Unfortunately, many of them are going to form their opinions about gun people and RKBA in general by what they read on the 'net. Given what some people have posted in this thread I think many people who read it would conclude that the membership largely approves of the massacre.

We really need to remember that each of us is an ambassador and spokesman/woman for RKBA at all times, whether we like it or not.

[sparky45]

"Whether they deserved to be shot in a bar is questionable" questionable, questionable, you are saying that they might have deserved what they got????????? Ignorant.

Tim

You are definitely off your meds. Seek assistance.

[DCP]

Innocent of what?

We are all guilty, all worthy of death. Whether they deserved to be shot in a bar is questionable but innocent they were not. Play Sodom and Gomorrah, get your dues.

Oh wow now the punishment came from God. Did well tell your last sentence

[dverna]

Innocent of what?

We are all guilty, all worthy of death. Whether they deserved to be shot in a bar is questionable but innocent they were not. Play Sodom and Gomorrah, get your dues.

What a pathetic view....all of us guilty of sins so heinous we should die.

And are are you saying God used used this Muslim psychopath to do His work?

BTW, I do not approve of homosexuality, but if there is a God, He will be the ultimate judge.

Murder is murder. It is not acceptable even if one believes God has directed His children to kill others. Too many have died in God's name because men wanted to justify their immoral actions.

[ArrowJ]

You are definitely off your meds. Seek assistance.

I must be not taking the same meds because you are coming across ignorant to me too. Maybe I am missing something (which does happen).

If you are saying everyone is culpable before God, I agree. If you are saying these people are more culpable than heterosexuals that is a problem.

At the end of the day these are human beings killed by a terrorist. If you are a Christian they are fallen human beings killed by a terrorist. Their sexual proclivities are no more of an issue than my own sin, meaning we all deserve punishment from God.

If I am reading you wrong I apologize.

[dtknowles]

Right back at ya bro.

So you say that 90 million Americans don't have a job but 100 million people are under 18 or over 65. The unemployment rate is reported to be 4.7 percent for people who are actively looking for a job. Broader gauges of unemployment put the mark at between 9 and 12 percent. The indications are that while unemployment is not yet back to historical lows it is down markedly and at a reasonable level. Lower levels of unemployment will mean employers will be forced to fill vacancies with unqualified applicants. You remember when the Drive Thru Teller could not take you order properly and spoke so poorly you could not understand what they were saying.

You still think I am uninformed on employment statistics.

Tim

[dtknowles]

You are definitely off your meds. Seek assistance.

Claude said this "Whether they deserved to be shot in a bar is questionable" and you think I am the one who is off my meds. So you think the deserved to be shot as well? In my mind there is no question, they did not deserve to be shot.

Tim

[sparky45]

I must be not taking the same meds because you are coming across ignorant to me too. Maybe I am missing something (which does happen).

If you are saying everyone is culpable before God, I agree. If you are saying these people are more culpable than heterosexuals that is a problem.

At the end of the day these are human beings killed by a terrorist. If you are a Christian they are fallen human beings killed by a terrorist. Their sexual proclivities are no more of an issue than my own sin, meaning we all deserve punishment from God.

If I am reading you wrong I apologize.

What I've underlined is correct.

[sparky45]

Claude said this "Whether they deserved to be shot in a bar is questionable" and you think I am the one who is off my meds. So you think the deserved to be shot as well? In my mind there is no question, they did not deserve to be shot.

Tim
Worst case of parsing I've witnessed so far. So where I said that statement. I'll make it perfectly clear, There are those who DESERVE to be shot! I have no knowledge, nor do you, as to whom those might be. Consult God if you need to know. What a Maroon.

[sparky45]

So you say that 90 million Americans don't have a job but 100 million people are under 18 or over 65. The unemployment rate is reported to be 4.7 percent for people who are actively looking for a job. Broader gauges of unemployment put the mark at between 9 and 12 percent. The indications are that while unemployment is not yet back to historical lows it is down markedly and at a reasonable level. Lower levels of unemployment will mean employers will be forced to fill vacancies with unqualified applicants. You remember when the Drive Thru Teller could not take you order properly and spoke so poorly you could not understand what they were saying.

You still think I am uninformed on employment statistics.

Tim
Obama loves ya bro.

[victorfox]

all I gather from my local news is that: we need more tolerance and gay rights (not a word against those crazy hamanamanahs), we need stronger gun control, and the mighty powerful 223 might have transfixed its targets and killed more people, so it must be banned. Thankfully we have gun control here and criminals only have those stunky fals and aks. Oh yes talks and talks about how the ugly 2nd Amendment give the right to people to carry and bear arms. Thankfully again we have a strong gun control here. And hillary is barking with obama about banning those bad black rifles.... Great!!! Just what everyone needs....

[dtknowles]

Obama loves ya bro.

You tried to hire someone lately? It is hard to find qualified applicants. I am not Obama fan and he does not get credit for the natural business cycle where recovery follows recession. We hired a lot of good people three years ago, can't find them now. We did not get a penny of stimulus funding.

Tim

[claude]

Ignorant

Not so, read Romans 3:23, Romans 5:12, Eze 18:4, and don't put words in my mouth. Furthermore if you understand the word, all that died is the flesh, they, the persons, are with God, hopefully getting an education. Ecc 12:6. Refute this at your peril, God's words are true, they have not been taken out of context.

Enjoy your day.

[blackthorn]

Quote "So you say that 90 million Americans don't have a job but 100 million people are under 18 or over 65. The unemployment rate is reported to be 4.7 percent for people who are actively looking for a job. Broader gauges of unemployment put the mark at between 9 and 12 percent."

This would be compatible with what I learned in the 1980's. Governments have spin doctors that espouse formulas for deciding what the "rate (%) of unemployment is. The spin doctors job is to baffle-gab the public into believing things "aint as bad as they seem man". When I was working with the unemployed, our folks determined that if you wanted to know the true rate of unemployment you took the government's published number, doubled it and added 2. That was by no means a hard and fast rule but it got you close.

As far as the most recent shootings in the US, my opinion is that the terrorist sought to accomplish two things; kill as many Americans as possible, (the fact they were "gay" was in his eyes a bonus), and at the same time ensure there would be discussion trying to lead to disarming more Americans. If successful in this last, --- more helpless targets for the next scum!

[sparky45]

You tried to hire someone lately? It is hard to find qualified applicants. I am not Obama fan and he does not get credit for the natural business cycle where recovery follows recession. We hired a lot of good people three years ago, can't find them now. We did not get a penny of stimulus funding.

Tim
You still using your Obamma phone though, right bro.

[sparky45]

Quote "So you say that 90 million Americans don't have a job but 100 million people are under 18 or over 65. The unemployment rate is reported to be 4.7 percent for people who are actively looking for a job. Broader gauges of unemployment put the mark at between 9 and 12 percent."

This would be compatible with what I learned in the 1980's. Governments have spin doctors that espouse formulas for deciding what the "rate (%) of unemployment is. The spin doctors job is to baffle-gab the public into believing things "aint as bad as they seem man". When I was working with the unemployed, our folks determined that if you wanted to know the true rate of unemployment you took the government's published number, doubled it and added 2. That was by no means a hard and fast rule but it got you close.

As far as the most recent shootings in the US, my opinion is that the terrorist sought to accomplish two things; kill as many Americans as possible, (the fact they were "gay" was in his eyes a bonus), and at the same time ensure there would be discussion trying to lead to disarming more Americans. If successful in this last, --- more helpless targets for the next scum!

Above comments right on target, especially the part about employment stats.

[Ithaca Gunner]

Gentlemen, this was every bit an attack on the U.S. as the WTC was on 9-11-01 by a radical enemy. The same enemy the traitor in the White House belongs to and promotes by bringing them here.

I DO NOT condone the lifestyle that those murdered adhered to, how-ever they were American citizens MURDERED by an enemy we are not allowed to fight thanks to political correctness and the current leadership of this nation. It also shows the failure of disarmed citizens and gun free zones...again.

Remember, God hates the sin, but loves the sinner no-less.

[Smoke4320]

Gentlemen, this was every bit an attack on the U.S. as the WTC was on 9-11-01 by a radical enemy. The same enemy the traitor in the White House belongs to and promotes by bringing them here.

I DO NOT condone the lifestyle that those murdered adhered to, how-ever they were American citizens MURDERED by an enemy we are not allowed to fight thanks to political correctness and the current leadership of this nation. It also shows the failure of disarmed citizens and gun free zones...again.

Remember, God hates the sin, but loves the sinner no-less.

Probably the most dead on post of this whole thread

Also shows how our government failed in several ways.
we released a radical cleric who was known to preach hate . Should have been deported and never allowed to return .
FBI interviewed the shooter 3 times . some connections were known . yet no watchlist entry .
he passed a background check to purchase the weapons legally . So out goes the EXPANDED background nonsense
He was still allowed to work as security for a GOVERMENT contractor even though co workers reported him spewing hate messages
Father claims to be the real president of Afghanistan (looney tunes )

[sparky45]

So you say that 90 million Americans don't have a job but 100 million people are under 18 or over 65. The unemployment rate is reported to be 4.7 percent for people who are actively looking for a job. Broader gauges of unemployment put the mark at between 9 and 12 percent. The indications are that while unemployment is not yet back to historical lows it is down markedly and at a reasonable level. Lower levels of unemployment will mean employers will be forced to fill vacancies with unqualified applicants. You remember when the Drive Thru Teller could not take you order properly and spoke so poorly you could not understand what they were saying.

You still think I am uninformed on employment statistics.

Tim
Yes I do.

[ArrowJ]

What I've underlined is correct.

In that case I stand corrected and apologize.

[toallmy]

Don't think for a second , that muslim boy would not have done the same thing in a church full of us infidels . I don't approve of the lifestyle of those poor soles , but that was between them and God .

[jmort]

http://www.shadowstats.com/

Alternate Data (http://www.shadowstats.com/alternate_data/)View: EMP (http://www.shadowstats.com/alternate_data/unemployment-charts/) CPI (http://www.shadowstats.com/alternate_data/inflation-charts/) M3 (http://www.shadowstats.com/alternate_data/money-supply-charts/)


http://shadowstats.com/imgs/charts/alt-unemployment-mini.gif (http://www.shadowstats.com/alternate_data/unemployment-charts/)

[M-Tecs]

Don't think for a second , that muslim boy would not have done the same thing in a church full of us infidels . I don't approve of the lifestyle of those poor soles , but that was between them and God .

He also scouted Disney World. The club was most likely the softest target he could find. http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/breakingnews/orlando-nightclub-gunman-scouted-walt-disney-world-as-potential-target-source/ar-AAgZ999?li=BBnbcA1&ocid=edgsp

[sparky45]

In that case I stand corrected and apologize.

Apology isn't necessary, but thank you.

[sparky45]

Not so, read Romans 3:23, Romans 5:12, Eze 18:4, and don't put words in my mouth. Furthermore if you understand the word, all that died is the flesh, they, the persons, are with God, hopefully getting an education. Ecc 12:6. Refute this at your peril, God's words are true, they have not been taken out of context.

Enjoy your day.

Amen!! Thank you for the scriptures Claude. Did me good to read some Bible today.

[dtknowles]

You still using your Obamma phone though, right bro.

Not sue why you would call me bro????

I never had an Obama phone.

Work and pay taxes like most hard working Americans and actually try to create jobs for people by helping grow the new aerospace startup company I work for.

Tim

[dtknowles]

Not so, read Romans 3:23, Romans 5:12, Eze 18:4, and don't put words in my mouth. Furthermore if you understand the word, all that died is the flesh, they, the persons, are with God, hopefully getting an education. Ecc 12:6. Refute this at your peril, God's words are true, they have not been taken out of context.

Enjoy your day.

Your beliefs does not make them facts. The Bible is just a book.

Tim

[sparky45]

Not sue why you would call me bro????

I never had an Obama phone.

Work and pay taxes like most hard working Americans and actually try to create jobs for people by helping grow the new aerospace startup company I work for.

Tim
Now you're stereotyping, bro. Again I find issue with your figures. I don't believe that MOST Americans (dem's primarily) are hard working. Remember the 47% that Mr. Romney cited, bet those ranks have swollen under your POTUS.

[sparky45]

Your beliefs does not make them facts. The Bible is just a book.

Tim

That opinion, while wildly WRONG, is one you're entitled to. Prayers up for your soul, bro.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

I'd like to see the details of those stats.

I doubt it. You have to click on "Show" for the 1960-2012 table.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_the_United_States

[Ballistics in Scotland]

I do no think this shoot was gods will. I think AIDS was but not shooting

Wouldn't that make him pretty ruthless with the people who just got blood transfusions?

[Ballistics in Scotland]

I would equate your facts to a set of statistics released by the Bureaucrats in DC that show the unemployment rate as 4.7% when over 90 million don't have jobs. So I wouldn't put a lot of trust in Bureaucrat statistics. Ask the good folks that live in Chicago, Detroit, ect about violent crime.

Personally I wouldn't put a lot of faith in the theory that the ghosts of the Witches of Salem talked Oman Mateen into it. But it has as much factual backup as your unemployment figures.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Worst case of parsing I've witnessed so far. So where I said that statement. I'll make it perfectly clear, There are those who DESERVE to be shot! I have no knowledge, nor do you, as to whom those might be. Consult God if you need to know. What a Maroon.

There are those, a great many of them professing to be Christians, who deserve to be struck by lightning or something. Most of us don't want homosexuals intertwining in our back yards, but these victims weren't. It is a basic tenet of the law that all people have the same rights under criminal law. Even murdering Harvey Lee Oswald was murder, when he wasn't leaning out of an unstairs window, and the people in that club were simply exercising rights society chose to allow them. Not give them, because society can take away alienable rights, but everything not forbidden is permitted. Nothing in somebody else's book on religion (where homosexuality gets a lot less attention than hatred and hurting people) changes that.

[dtknowles]

Now you're stereotyping, bro. Again I find issue with your figures. I don't believe that MOST Americans (dem's primarily) are hard working. Remember the 47% that Mr. Romney cited, bet those ranks have swollen under your POTUS.

Read the words, I did not say that most Americans are hard working I said I was like most hard working Americans. Do you have a problem with reading comprehension. "Work and pay taxes like most hard working Americans" Just so you don't have to go back and find what is said.

Tim

[dtknowles]

Now you're stereotyping, bro. Again I find issue with your figures. I don't believe that MOST Americans (dem's primarily) are hard working. Remember the 47% that Mr. Romney cited, bet those ranks have swollen under your POTUS.

He is as much your POTUS as he is mine. He comes from close to your home than from mine.

Tim

[w5pv]

God said they were wicked and destroyed two cities of them with fire and brimstone and who is crying over 50 or so getting smoked by an Issis member

[sparky45]

Read the words, I did not say that most Americans are hard working I said I was like most hard working Americans. Do you have a problem with reading comprehension. "Work and pay taxes like most hard working Americans" Just so you don't have to go back and find what is said.

Tim
Once again bro, you have my sympathy and I'll keep praying for your soul. I understand perfectly what you were trying to imply, I just don't buy it at all. You are trying to intertwine multiple issues into a simple thought (that part you got right). I'm talking about the majority of Americans, and you're talking about a subset or minority of Americans.

[sparky45]

He is as much your POTUS as he is mine. He comes from close to your home than from mine.

Tim
You got part of that one right, kudos.

[sparky45]

There are those, a great many of them professing to be Christians, who deserve to be struck by lightning or something. Most of us don't want homosexuals intertwining in our back yards, but these victims weren't. It is a basic tenet of the law that all people have the same rights under criminal law. Even murdering Harvey Lee Oswald was murder, when he wasn't leaning out of an unstairs window, and the people in that club were simply exercising rights society chose to allow them. Not give them, because society can take away alienable rights, but everything not forbidden is permitted. Nothing in somebody else's book on religion (where homosexuality gets a lot less attention than hatred and hurting people) changes that.

Bloviate somewhere else BIS.

[shoot-n-lead]

bloviate somewhere else bis.

x 2

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Bloviate somewhere else BIS.

I can just see your grade school reports. "Reacts badly to criticism."

[Ballistics in Scotland]

God said they were wicked and destroyed two cities of them with fire and brimstone and who is crying over 50 or so getting smoked by an Issis member

Nobody but people who think everyone's death deserves pity. Some pages must be missing from your Bible. Maybe you have a special edition.

I seem to remember that God tolerated Sodom and Gomorrah while they minded their own business, and destroyed them because they developed designs on angels against their will. Still, if God could destroy cities with fire and brimstone for it, you must think he is either over the hill or has changed his ideas on the subject.

[white eagle]

God said they were wicked and destroyed two cities of them with fire and brimstone and who is crying over 50 or so getting smoked by an Issis member

wow !

[oldred]

Well I have got to put in my two cents, I have nothing but disdain for those people's perverted life style BUT this was murder! My attitude is to let them be to do as they wish but I draw the line at trying to force the public in general to accept their perversion as normal but that is an entirely different thing to wanting to see them come to harm, they were in their own *environment* and deserved to be left alone and safe just as anyone else should be at any kind of gathering place regardless of what it is as long as it's a legal gathering. My point is that while I may despise these people for the life they lead that is a different subject and should have no bearing on the discussion of what befell them! These people did not deserve what happened to them and if we want to talk about their life style it would be better to leave that to a different discussion, this was a mass murder and that's what the discussion should be about.

BTW, I have been hearing conflicting information on the weapons used, was the rifle a full auto?

[Don Purcell]

Bottom line is the Feds dropped the ball as usual. How many honest Joe's out there were denied on backround checks because of inaccurate information? Yet, this scum bag is investigated three times and skates by. I hate to sound conspiracy theory but this terrorist slips through the cracks and ends up doing this? How many others have "slipped" through the cracks and have never done anything wrong and will never do anything bad but, this one guy just happens to slide though and goes total Jihad? The Feds bear ALL the blame on this, not honest law abiding citizens. At the very least it is the result of political correctness run amok or deliberate mass murder with the Feds help.

[dragon813gt]

i can just see your grade school reports. "reacts badly to criticism."

lol :)

[M-Tecs]

BTW, I have been hearing conflicting information on the weapons used, was the rifle a full auto?

No. Over the counter AR15.

[sparky45]

I can just see your grade school reports. "Reacts badly to criticism."
Your's likely says "never shuts his mouth".

[JeffinNZ]

Innocent of what?

We are all guilty, all worthy of death. Whether they deserved to be shot in a bar is questionable but innocent they were not. Play Sodom and Gomorrah, get your dues.

Further proof there is nothing quite as vile as a religious fanatic.

[claude]

Your beliefs does not make them facts.

Which could well be said for you as well Tim.


The Bible is just a book.

Very true Tim, but what a book, full of wisdom, and authored by the Living God. Your unbelief is apparent, and because you disbelieve, it can't be so?

In closing, these are questions that I already know the answers to, they are called rhetorical questions, meant for you to reflect on. Your answers are inconsequential to me, but could be enlightening to yourself, I sincerely hope you will not pass them off as ignorant drivel.

claude.

[dragon813gt]

Further proof there is nothing quite as vile as a religious fanatic.

Couldn't agree more.

[richhodg66]

This was a rather interesting outcome f all this, never knew there were such groups, but it makes sense. More power to them, self defense is an inherent right for any living being.

http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2016/06/12/pink-pistols-2/?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social

[tdoyka]

https://scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/13407114_1175468255839392_6750425845124734273_n.jp g?oh=43ab753633e75edf370c940d7351ba25&oe=57FB806C

[jcwit]

Further proof there is nothing quite as vile as a religious fanatic.

So in your mind God looks with favor on gays?

And in mind it also gives you the right to judge claude?

Quite a stretch to say the least.

[montana_charlie]

Further proof there is nothing quite as vile as a religious fanatic.
I suspect that an atheist fanatic could be equally vile.

Are you not religious ... or just not a fanatic?

[sparky45]

I think he's made his position quite clear. He needs lots of prayers, we all do.

[dtknowles]

Which could well be said for you as well Tim.



Very true Tim, but what a book, full of wisdom, and authored by the Living God. Your unbelief is apparent, and because you disbelieve, it can't be so?

In closing, these are questions that I already know the answers to, they are called rhetorical questions, meant for you to reflect on. Your answers are inconsequential to me, but could be enlightening to yourself, I sincerely hope you will not pass them off as ignorant drivel.

claude.

Old ground, I have discussed this until the rest of the members are bored of the subject. Asked and answered many times. I can settle for we are just going to disagree and leave it at that.

Tim

[runfiverun]

as much as I'd like to see y'all keep picking and poking at each other this ain't goin anywhere.
and some ones feelings are gonna get hurt.