Solder

[chaos]

What kind and how much solder is recommended to add to my wheel weights?

I've got a big mold that I am having trouble getting to cast up to size. I've lowered my temp a good bit. have to cast about 25 rejects before I get a good fill out. Its just needs to cast a hair bigger to suit me.

After about 10 bullets the centers look frosted and a re smaller than the top and bottom driving bands by about .0005

[HeavyMetal]

use 50/50 bar solder from a good hardware store. I'm real sure you won't find it at home depot or Lowes.

Suggest you make a batch of Lyman #2 Good formula: 5 1/2 Lbs wheel weights (clip on type)
1 Lb 50/50 bar solder
3 1/2 Lbs Lead ( the stick on WW)

This will make you a 10 Lb batch of Lyman number 2 and should give you the incease in Diameter you need plus make it a bit easier to fill out. Temp should be right around 720 degrees.

If this does not cure you problem go to straight Linotype! This should cast 3 % larger than WW metal. If the problem still exists it ain't in the metal!

[randyrat]

Or go to a yard sale where there are selling tools and ask them if they have any solder. I bought a lb of 95/5 yesterday for $3 Just add a little at a time and keep track of how much you added for next time. 5 to 8 ozs in a 10 lb batch should do it. Depending on your alloy also depending on the solder-95/5,,,50/50,,,,60/40.

[wiljen]

5 1/2 Lbs wheel weights (clip on type)
1 Lb 50/50 bar solder
3 1/2 Lbs Lead ( the stick on WW)

This will make you a 10 Lb batch of Lyman number 2 and should give you the increase in Diameter you need plus make it a bit easier to fill out. Temp should be right around 720 degrees.

If this does not cure you problem go to straight Linotype! This should cast 3 % larger than WW metal.

Not to offend, but the formula for Lyman #2 is 90/5/5 and your concoction is way short on antimony to duplicate that. Since only roughly half of your starting material has antimony (the clip on WW at 4% Max) and you are diluting that, you cannot possibly arrive at 5% in the final product. I agree that adding tin will help mold fill-out and may slightly change the boolit diameter, but have to think "beagling" the mold would be more likely to produce the desired results.

Wiljen

[HeavyMetal]

Wiljen:
No offence taken! The pupose of an open discussion forum is to do just that: discuss!

Now that 90-5-5 formula has been thrown about for years and a lot of people use it!

I also know that clip on wheel weights vary a little in composition and not much we can do about that.

So now we come to the formula I qouted. This was directly from a Lyman original bullet making guide packed in an original 4 cavity bullet mold box, with the mold, and is marked Form L-105 the Leisure Group, Inc. I have no idea as to it's age.

So my reference for the alloy formula was Lyman.

This little guide list's two formulas to arrive at Lyman number 2.

The other formula: 4 Lbs Line-o-type
1 Lb. 50/50 bar solder
5 Lbs Lead

Now I will admit that the notes in defining the type of wheel weights were mine. I'm also pretty sure that everyone will agree with me that the stick on type wheel weights can be used as sure lead.

Now any of these formulas, Lyman's A or B fomula or the suggested 90-5-5, will help Choas get what he wants out of his mold.

These were and are just suggestions. If these do not cure the problem and it's a new mold, I will suggest he speak to the manufacturer before he does anything else.

But we've all had the "deaf ear" experience from mold makers so he may wind up beagling the mold if he can't juggle his alloy enough.

Hope all this is helping him out!

[carpetman]

If someone can explain how you take an unknown---(wheelweights) and add exacts and come up with an exact I'll start making Lyman #2. Until then I'll continue using wheelweights as is.

[sundog]

The very boobaciously avatared Carpetman is correct. No one really knows what the mix is in WWs anymore, especially since they come from more than one source and from a widely varying period of time.

I think RandyRat is closer to getting a good boolit. Whatever you add to the WWs, keep track, and when you get a good alloy you can reproduce it with that set of ingredients.

Unless you have a specific need, who cares what the percentages are if you get good boolits.

[felix]

Yep, shooting would be mighty dull around here if we had only one alloy to shoot. 90 percent of the fun is going out to see what some unknown, sometimes wild on purpose, combo actually does. ... felix

[HeavyMetal]

Carpetman:
Wheel weights are an unknown I agree. Most of us don't have a way to analzie the alloy for an exact mix so we use the "educated guess" mixed with a bit of suggested possible alloy's for wheel weights.

For years I have used the formula 95.5% lead, 5% antimony and .5% tin as a "rule of thumb" for WW alloy. It has served me well and, as the only way the average guy can test his alloy, a good lead hardness tester has put me right in the ball park on a number of times I've checked wheel weights.

Clip on WW are also a different blend than stick on types and I have always treated stick on's as pure lead. This has also held up on a tester.

Whenever I blend an alloy this is my starting point with WW metal. I do test any metals I plan to blend in as a sweetner because you never know what you got until you test it. Again I lean hard on my hardness tester and make guess's based on what it says.

I once bought 200 lbs Linotype. After testing it I realized I'd bought 200lbs of Foundry type!

I'm still using that batch to sweeten WW, the tin and antimony content are huge!

So if you want to try a batch of Lyman # 2 follow either of the formulas listed and it will be darn close! I don't think any of us can tell the difference if the tin content is 4% or 5% when were shooting.

[James C. Snodgrass]

:castmine:I've been using about 2 oz of (lead free ) solder to a 10 lb pot of WW. The make up of the solder is 95 % tin 5% antimony and it makes a very big difference in my quality of bullets. I know it might not be scientific but they fill out and shoot M.O.A and I didn't pay much attention to the science teacher in school either. So if it works don't fix it. James

[carpetman]

Heavymetal---What have you really gained knowing the hardness of your alloy? Does it kill em deader? Did you gain measuable accuracy? We hear about the millions of buffalo killed with cast bullets and I'd bet in the timeframe we are talking about, none were killed with a bullet of known hardness. On jet engines for example there is an EGT guage---exhaust gas temperature. This is important on jet engines. I bet if someone installed one on an automobile people would be instantly concerned about exhaust gas temperature and would be adding everything under the sun to their fuel to control it. I'm not shooting matches,but if I were and my group was larger than I wanted,be tough to say that 2 BHN would have been the magic---could be other things and heaven forbid could even be me. NAh---that's impossible strike that out. So my formula which shoots MOJ---minute of jackrabbit and MOBC---minute of beer can is an exact mixture of 50% free wheelweights and 50% wheelweights I didnt have to pay for. If I run out of alloy I might be in trouble from what I have read here about people having to pay for wheelweights---but so far I never have. I was told so many times that to cast good .22 cal bullets,I needed tin for fill out. Bought some tin and I couldn't tell a speck of difference. Guess I'm just not precision enough. I'm sure as often as I was told it is making a HUGE difference,but ol dumb me just can't see it.

[carpetman]

Hey Sundog---Corky I told you boobacious was a good word. Have you used it other than here? If not yet, I bet you do find occasion where it is the proper word.

[Bob Krack]

So my formula which shoots MOJ---minute of jackrabbit and MOBC---minute of beer can is an exact mixture of 50% free wheelweights and 50% wheelweights I didnt have to pay for.

I also have heard that the exact proportions are not extremely critical. Most shooters are unable to tell (by the boolits performance) if it were 50% free or even up to 99+%. Same for din't hafta pay for content.

Vic

[leftiye]

I would guess that if you have a hardness tester, that if you mix the correct amount of tin from solder by weight, and the other metals (lead, WWs, and Linotype) as directed, then you could add linotype to the correct hardness if your mix came out soft. And you'd be very close to #2 alloy, way closer than would matter. I like the 50/50? WW/lead alloy, it is useful in more scenarios. Straight wheelweights is cheaper and harder, add a little tin (2% or less) for fill out if you want to).

[wiljen]

What is interesting is the first formula and the 2nd you quoted from that booklet don't come close to forming the same alloy and neither of them match the 90/5/5 formulation that the lyman Cast bullet manual calls lyman #2.

The first makes 93.5% Lead /4.5% Tin /2% Antimony.

The 2nd (Lino,lead,50/50) makes 88.5% lead /6.5% Tin /5% Antimony.

(Assuming 4% Antimony in the Clip-on and .5% in the stick ons).

[HeavyMetal]

Carpetman:

You asked a question concerning WW alloy, I gave you the best answer I could.

You don't have to use anything but WW for good bullets.

The information was provided because you asked for it: If someone can explain how take an unkown (wheel wieghts) and add exacts to come up with an exact I'll start making Lyman Number 2. I believe that is a fairly accurate qoute of your question?

The information was as accurate as I can be with a simple hardness tester and a calculator and will be as close as one could want or need.

Please be aware this information was originally provided in the interest of helping a guy with a problem mold try something that might work. I hope it has.

However I was not saying everyone should do it my way! Suggestions are just that: Suggestions!

[HeavyMetal]

Wiljen:

I have the little booklet right here and I don't know if I can post a copy but can try if you like or I can send you a photo copy. PM me and let me know if your interested.

I can only quote the information I have on hand and figured that if anyone knew how to make Lyman number 2 it would be lyman.

However in the third edition of the Lyman cast bullet handbook, page 57, they do show two formulas for making Number 2 alloy.

Interrestingly the second formula I listed, using Linotype, is also listed here where as the first has been changed to only show two components: the 50/50 bar solder and wheel weights.

so apprently even Lyman doesn't known how to make Number 2 alloy anymore!

This certainly adds to the "mystery" of casting your own boolits.

However it is wierd that I would have two sources, supposedly by the same company, showing what are now three seperate formulas for the same alloy.

On the same page it show a break down for seveal types of lead alloy. The WW alloy is just a hair off what I qouted earlier as my "rule of thumb".

I will continue using this as my go to number for WW alloy and blend as best I can when I feel the need for something harder or larger in Diameter.

Again the information is posted from a known source! I have no control over how they arrived at these numbers, I am simply providing what I've been using.

[carpetman]

Heavymetal----I hope you didnt take it as a flame--none intended. My point really is it doesnt have to be as exacting as some make it to be. Help Chaos???? He's way beyond help.

[randyrat]

Or go to a yard sale where there are selling tools and ask them if they have any solder. I bought a lb of 95/5 yesterday for $3 Just add a little at a time and keep track of how much you added for next time. 5 to 8 ozs in a 10 lb batch should do it. Depending on your alloy also depending on the solder-95/5,,,50/50,,,,60/40. Always one more thing to add......When you find your optimum alloy,killin,accurate,perfect fillout bullet, weigh it and write it down. Weight will tell you next time if you got it right. ie..... Too much soft lead= it will be heavier, Too much tin= it will be lighter....ect....

[chaos]

Heavymetal----I hope you didnt take it as a flame--none intended. My point really is it doesnt have to be as exacting as some make it to be. Help Chaos???? He's way beyond help.


hey now, I resemble that remark :-D

I realize this sure isn't an exact science. One sure as hell cant mix unknowns with knowns to get a KNOWN result. I am just playing around with my alloy a bit trying to get a cast that's a hair larger. My Lyamn manual lists adding 50/50 soldier which is a bit pricey compared to the 95/5.

If changing up my alloy doesn't fix things, I will either send the Mold back to RCBS, or use it as a Trotline weight. I refuse to add tape to the sides of a BRAND NEW product to get it to perform.

Yes, I am that damned hard headed.

[leftiye]

Good for you! Hard headed is good. Don't ask me.

[Calamity Jake]

Chaos, I have 60/40 tin/lead for sale on swapen and sellen, be glad to send you some it your interested.

[jswaff]

I just picked up some pure lead (35 pounds), wheel weights (6 pounds) and 6 pounds of 95/5 solder. What would I get if I mix this all together? I know not to use all of the solder, but how much should I use. I will be casting pistol boolits for a 38 special.

I really have learned alot on this forum and do appreciate everyones knowledge.

Thanks!!!!!!!

[wiljen]

I can only quote the information I have on hand and figured that if anyone knew how to make Lyman number 2 it would be lyman. I have no control over how they arrived at these numbers, I am simply providing what I've been using.



I agree, it does seem that Lyman has changed the formula over the years, or depending on which technician was actually writing the materials. I wonder if any of that was done due to changing contributions of antimony and Tin in WW, or if it was just haphazard. I'd like to think there was method to their madness, but that may be giving more credit than is deserved.

Wiljen

[wiljen]

I just picked up some pure lead (35 pounds), wheel weights (6 pounds) and 6 pounds of 95/5 solder. What would I get if I mix this all together? I know not to use all of the solder, but how much should I use. I will be casting pistol boolits for a 38 special.

I really have learned alot on this forum and do appreciate everyones knowledge.

Thanks!!!!!!!

If you mixed it all together you'd get an alloy with better than 10% tin. That is a huge waste as anything over 1-2% doesn't help. By my calculation, your alloy would be roughly 87% Lead, 12% Tin and 1% Antimony. A good mix for pistol boolits would be 50/50 lead/WW with enough tin to bring it up to 1% of the total weight. For rifle, straight WW with enough tin for 1% and save the pure lead for Muzzleloaders.

[Bob Krack]

hey now, I resemble that remark :-D

I realize this sure isn't an exact science. One sure as hell cant mix unknowns with knowns to get a KNOWN result. I am just playing around with my alloy a bit trying to get a cast that's a hair larger. My Lyamn manual lists adding 50/50 soldier which is a bit pricey compared to the 95/5.

If changing up my alloy doesn't fix things, I will either send the Mold back to RCBS, or use it as a Trotline weight. I refuse to add tape to the sides of a BRAND NEW product to get it to perform.

Hey, you're doin fine. Some just get frustrated because the question has been asked and answered (apparently) so many times. Use the cheapest source of tin you can find. For 10 pounds of wheelweights, you will need around 2 ounces of tin. That's 4 ounces of 50/50 or right at 2 ounces of 95/5.

You won't get a significant increase if size, just a little better fillout.

It DOES sound like you are running the alloy a little on the warm side for the temp of the mould, though. A little warmer on the mold and a little cooler on the alloy can give a slight increase in size. If'n that don't do it, then RCBS is the answer.

I am certain I will be corrected if'n I'm wrong.

Vic

[chaos]

I mixed 1 full pound of 50/50 solder with 10 pounds of wheel weights.

My Lyman "Cast bullet Handbook" recommends:


Recipes for Mixing your own #2 alloy

9 pounds wheel weights +1 pound 50/50 bar solder = 10 pounds of #2

or

4 pounds Linotype + 1 pound 50/50 + 5 pounds pure lead = 10 pounds of #2


I am in full agreement that following this will absolute NOT give an exact Lyman #2 alloy, but in some reguards it will get one close.


1. I can't tell that adding tin to my mixture has done a damn thing with my bare eyes. Bullets still fill out nicely, tin or no tin added

2. Bullets will now size to .459, but only if I run my mixture VERY cool, as in cool enough that I have to keep unplugging the spout on my Lee #20 bottom pour or my Old SAECO. I can only cast about 3 to 4 bullets in a row before I start getting .4575 to .458 ( measured with my handy dandy Mitutoyo mics). I must then Open up the mold and let it cool down for a good bit. Then I can cast another 3 to 4 bullets. Bullets start to shrink in size on the driving bands near the nose or Ogive first. This is a bottom pour RCBS mold. keeper bullets are casting @ 414 grs with the approximated #2 alloy. They cast around 425 with straiught wheel weights.
3. I am using Hornady Gas checks. They are still loose on this bullet. Either I've got some bad Gas checks, or my mold is truly *****
4. I did try half of a pound of bar solder first, but noticed no difference in cast size. I added the other half pound as is stated in my manual.

Sometime today after lunch I'm going to load up these projos, loose gas checks and all and run them down the pipe. .458's unsized and sized .459's and see what they will do.

[wiljen]

Try beagling the mold. It should give you about .003 additional size.

[chaos]

The rounds shot pretty well, minute of beer can at 45 yards or so which is plenty good for my needs.

[Echo]

Regarding alloys - I met a guy 30 years ago who knew CB's, and alloy. He told me that any tin over 3% was wasted, that the tin lowered the surface tension of the melt, and also helped the antimony do it's thing. He also said that 2-3 times as much antimony was best. I gave him all the plumbus material I had, He added some of his own stuff, and generated about 300+ pounds of alloy that is about 3% tin and 7% antimony. I still have some of that stuff, saving it for my best efforts. I obviously don't cast an awful lot. But I guess the main thing is to have a well-filled out boolit, which a smattering of tin will provide.