Can I get low enough pressure in a .357 to use 90/10 lead/tin?

[njc110381]

Hey guys.

Having researched the whole wheel weight thing, it turns out that they were banned here in 2010. I did ask my local scrap man about the various type metals for me to mix in, but he didn't seem to have much idea what I was talking about!

I've made a batch of 90% lead and 10% pewter. I can't dent it with my thumb nail and from reading various articles, I think I should have a BHN of about 11? That gives me about 16,000psi to play with I think?

My Lee reloading book tells me all about some clever maths that I can do using his carefully worked out numbers to figure out what pressure reduced loads will produce, but then I get to the .357 loads and his maths isn't there - he obviously hasn't worked it out for that calibre!

So... Is there a load out there that I can use that will develop about that pressure? It looks like it should be easy in the .38spl so could that data be transferred to the .357? As you can tell, I'm still quite new to this!

[Fernando]

I'd buy some ww's or alloy on line to use with it.
10% tin is $$$$$$
Use a gas check mold to go little softer in alloy or adjust the load.
Bullet, powder intending to use and velocity wanted would help a lot.

[dubber123]

You'd be surprised how soft you can shoot fast if fit is correct, and you use a quality lube. My most extreme example for .357 mag is a 220 grain, 9 Bhn boolit shot at over 1,400 fps. from my F/A mod 353. Pressure is likely in the 45,000+ Psi range. It doesn't lead at all, and my last 2, 50 yard groups were 1.00" and 1.05"

[MT Chambers]

Bought swaged lead wadcutters are usually pure lead and are used at 800+ fps as per many manuals, can you use 38 spl. cases? Either way it is doable and you could raise vel. quite a bit with the addition of tin. A better solution for the .357 Mag. would be to get ahold of some linotype and mix with the tin and pure lead and load as high vel. as you want.

[fecmech]

Don't get hung up on Lee and his pressure charts. Elmer Keith did his load development for the .357 mag and .44 mag with a 16/1 lead tin mix and that is slightly softer than what you are using. Cast your bullets, use appropriate powders for the speeds desired,2400,296,AA9 for max mag loads. For intermediate (900-1100 fps) Unique,Herco,AA5 etc and target level loads use 231,Bullseye,Tightgroup etc. If you do that sizing appropriately, and with a good lube you will be just fine. Jump in the pool and start swimming, you'll do great!

[JSnover]

There is usually some lead and other metals for sale in the Swappin and Sellin area. If not you can buy bullet casting alloy already mixed from RotoMetals.
As far as low pressure loads go, start at or near the bottom of your .357 charts for the cast boolit weights and powders that you have. As long as your boolit is sized right for your gun you won't have any trouble.

[C. Latch]

90% lead and 10% pewter is a pretty expensive mixture unless you have a lot of cheap pewter laying around. I'd buy some wheelweights if I were you.

Having said that, if you ripped those pages about BHN vs. Pressure out of your manual and threw them away, you wouldn't miss much. I've shot alloys softer than what you are asking about, at full .357 pressures, without leading, when fit was correct.

[Outpost75]

Take what you gave and cut it with an equal weight of plumber's lead.

[GhostHawk]

My .357 mag is a Handi rifle, single shot. I use range lead with 1.8 to 2% tin with no problems. But the real key is fit. If it is big enough, and on the slower side it will work.

My load is 4.6 grains of Red Dot under a .358 158 grain round nose boolit, no gas check.

My throat is long so I prefer to load mine in longer .360DW brass being in between mag and max in length.

Accuracy is quite good, better than I can hold most days.

[mdi]

If your alloy is truly 11 BHN, of course you can shoot it. Make sure the bullets fit the gun and not so much concern about "The Formula" and/or BHN. For a revolver start with bullets the same diameter as the cylinder throats. Measure, don't depend on "drop through" loose" or "tight push through", etc.. You can slug the cylinder the same as slugging the barrel (which is recommended too).

[HangFireW8]

There is a pressure deformation rule, but there's no real way to make it work with cast bullets. Some have found success doing so, and many others have found success by violating the rule, including me... so I don't use it any more.

Read this thread: http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?306943-quot-optimum-quot-Brinell-hardness-amp-Missouri-Bullets-WARNING-MATH-!&p=3651434&viewfull=1#post3651434

[runfiverun]

20-1 is the same bhn as ww alloy.
10-1 is rcbs's rifle alloy.

rip that 1422 number out of your book and throw it away.

[njc110381]

Wow, thanks guys. This is great info!

WW, as I said before, aren't an option unfortunately. I'm in the UK and lead was banned some time ago. It's all zinc now. I pick up my pewter from car boot sales, which are kind of like your yard sales except a load of people all meet in a field with a car load of stuff to sell. I usually pay 50p-£1 for a tankard depending on the size. A £1 tankard makes around 7lb of alloy, so it's not too bad money wise.

I will keep trying to find linotype, but the stuff I've seen available commercially here would cost me more than the pewter. People don't make boolits here like they do in the US. I'm probably the only guy out of a thousand buyers who has that intention. Nobody wants these old tankards any more.

[Walter Laich]

another thought: move to the colonies and your finding lead problems will be greatly reduced.

When you decide to come pick your destination carefully. Some of our states are worse than the UK.

[Doc Highwall]

I am mixing 22lr indoor range lead to make a 30:1 alloy and shooting it at almost 1900 fps.

[44man]

Hard to comment on since I have used a lot of soft lead with no problems. Tin works fine in the mix.
My reason to go harder is I get fliers with soft. Working the scale in my .44 with Keith boolits I had a lot of fliers and groups tightened with each rise in hardness but never came in until I reached 28 to 30 BHN. I shot smaller groups at fifty then I could do at 25.
Leading was never a problem as long as tin was in the mix.
Getting away from a Keith to the WLN, WFN, and RNFP, WD WW metal at about 20 BHN works for every revolver I have. Even PB.
Tried pure once and it was not pretty. 50-50 shot just OK but still had fliers, no leading but had to be oven hardened.
Yes, you can shoot softer but what does a target say?169718 This is a 50 yard group with WW's WD from a .500 JRH, PB. 169719 This is the RCBS Keith at 22 BHN at 25 and 50. 169720 Same boolit and load at 30 BHN.

[44man]

I never found a solution for the best groups with soft but they will shoot without a problem as far as leading until you try pure with smokeless. Need a Roto Rooter!
What do you want in the end? Fit counts only so far, then you get slump or the edge of a Keith ruined at the cone. I have seen slump so bad all GG's were gone before the boolit is out of the cylinder. Forget a GC to stop skid at that point. Your boolit is a Transformer before it comes in to do the job.
Charts for lead are something I don't understand. Your gun has the answer. You have only one course, shoot what you have.
All the years I have been here, nobody has shown soft lead groups but I have no fear.
I don't have a .357 anymore but when I did a 1" target at 100 yards was DEAD.
Much depends on your gun and how you load for it. Back in the day of the S&W 27 and the 358156 HP with a max load of 2400, it was amazing. Never found better.

[njc110381]

I'm planning to load Lee 158gr to shoot through a 20" .357 rifle. Only for close range gongs and playing around. It doesn't have to fly fast at all because I could shoot the same targets with a .22lr and get satisfactory results. There's no requirement for power. It won't ever be used for hunting or longer ranges.

[44man]

I'm planning to load Lee 158gr to shoot through a 20" .357 rifle. Only for close range gongs and playing around. It doesn't have to fly fast at all because I could shoot the same targets with a .22lr and get satisfactory results. There's no requirement for power. It won't ever be used for hunting or longer ranges.
You will be OK, rifles are different. Revolvers will twist you inside out.

[runfiverun]

there is another way around the soft lead too.
Roto metals [site sponsor] sells 'super hard' you can alloy it with your soft lead to make a ww type alloy.
it's gotta be a lot more economical than tin.

[MtGun44]

That tin is way too high, just a waste of a very expensive alloying metal.

Add pure lead until you get it down to 2-3% and it will cast great.

I shoot full power .357 Mag loads with several different NO GC bullets, Lee 38 158 RF,
357429, 357477 and have zero leading ever, even with 16.3 gr of H110. This works
fine with as soft as 8 BHN with no leading and good accy.

Alloy hardness is overrated as having anything to do with leading.

Load down to .38 Spl velocities for nice plinking loads.

[njc110381]

So is there really no advantage to using this much tin? So far I've made around 10lb of 10% alloy. It's cost me less than £2. The lead is free. I pick up odd offcuts at work and never have to pay for it.

I've got enough alloy to make 450 boolits for around $2.90 and enough pewter still to make ten times that. I suppose 900 for the same cost would be better, but that's not bad! Hardly worth the effort of melting it all again, especially if the high tin content may offer an improvement over a leaner mix?

[robg]

I'm in the UK use lead pipe with a bit of lead free solder .plain base boolits work well with 7gr of true blue ,same lead gas checked can be driven as hard as you want with no leading in my trapper with 2400.there is still lead ww out there ,but harder to find.

[njc110381]

Cheers Rob. I have to be honest, once I found a load of zinc ones I kind of gave up looking!

Do you ever shoot at Severnside?

[runfiverun]

those zinc ones could be used to harden up your lead.
oh and did you know that tin initially hardens lead but it's BHN softens back up over time.
not a horrible thing since you can re-cast it and get your BHN back.

[njc110381]

those zinc ones could be used to harden up your lead.

Does that not mess up the casting though? I thought zinc in the mix was a terrible thing? Interesting about the BHN dropping over time with tin in the mix. Any idea why that is?

[runfiverun]

I don't remember how the tin alone works.
but zinc/lead alloys work quite well.
some of the old Africa hunters using black powder would mix 3% zinc in with their pure lead so they would get better penetration on the bigger animals.
now Tin in lead is an anomaly it's whole purpose really is to make the lead flow better to fill out the crevices of a mold.
if you mix zinc in with the two, the tin will leave the lead and form a bond with the zinc.
this makes a matrix chain similar to the SbSn chain antimony forms with tin.
only the ZnSn chain is stronger because the little n's are able to bond with the bigger S and Z molecules easier than the big S's are able to hold the b and n in the other chain.
unfortunately the ZnSn chain can only be so long before it affects the castability of the alloy.
and the Zn affects a SbSn alloy much more, it can only handle about 1.5% solubility.

[Shiloh]

You are wasting your tin.
10% is a LOT of tin!!

SHiloh

[HangFireW8]

I've said this before, if tin is abundant and cheap, lead and antimony is not, use what you got.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

I'm in the UK use lead pipe with a bit of lead free solder .plain base boolits work well with 7gr of true blue ,same lead gas checked can be driven as hard as you want with no leading in my trapper with 2400.there is still lead ww out there ,but harder to find.

njc110381,
If you can find some Lead pipe as robg mentions, that can be good, as some Lead Pipe has antimony in it...as much as 3%. I guess it's put in there to help improve the extruding process...but the extruding process work softens it, so you can't measure the hardness it pipe form, it must be melted and cast into a boolit. Meaning, the pipe may seem soft and scratch easily, but when melted and cast, the hardness can be measured.

[robg]

I ve shot at the seven tunnel range ,is that the same one near the bridge tolls?.usual shoot at the Barry tunnel .lead gas pipe is the best very clean nearly pure. I just put a couple of yards of lead free solder (green coloured roll) and I'm good to go.

[njc110381]

The one I shoot at is the 200 yard open range by the bridge. It's accessed via the train station road.

On another note, I just found some printers type. I bought 120lbs of it. Hopefully that will last me a while because it wasn't cheap!

[Kevin Rohrer]

There is no way to look at Pewter and determine its BHN w/o using an element gun due to its changing composition over the years, so any estimation of BHN using pewter in bullet lead is a guess at best unless you have a hardness tester.

[Kevin Rohrer]

I've said this before, if tin is abundant and cheap, lead and antimony is not, use what you got.

What do you call "cheap"? Around here, Tin is $10 a pound.

[robg]

Ncj printers lead is very hard soften it a bit with roof flashing etc its got plenty of tin and antomney in it .a good plumber is a friend they are still taking out lead pipes .

[ProfGAB101]

Might try hitting up a boat yard and see if there are any old derelict sail boats rotting away which have raw lead ballast - They might even pay you to haul it (lead) away. Sometimes the ballast is bags of shot, other times they are blocks which were precast to fit.

[njc110381]

We rebuilt our house last year, so I kept all the lead from our old roof. It's what made me join the forum in fact! I knew I could use it but didn't know where to start.

I'm a gardener by trade. Quite often when we're asked to clear out an overgrown place there are odd bits of pipe and flashing lead piled up. The older generation wouldn't throw stuff like that away but these days folk just chuck it in the skip. I've picked up quite a lot of it since I found a use for it.

My thoughts are that I should stack it up somewhere while I can still find it. Lead is being banned for all sorts of uses now so I don't suppose the supply will last for ever.

[GWM]

There's nothing wrong with your alloy of 10% pewter and 90% lead. I have been using it in my .357 and for accuracy it has done very well. I do use a gas check. If you're only interested in 'no leading' it may be wasteful but if it's about accuracy it may be just right.

[njc110381]

It would be nice to hit the things that I'm aiming at! Not that it happens very often!:lol:

[gundownunder]

there is another way around the soft lead too.
Roto metals [site sponsor] sells 'super hard' you can alloy it with your soft lead to make a ww type alloy.
it's gotta be a lot more economical than tin.

Yeh, until he tries to get it shipped to Gloucestershire in England.
The only way this would be economically viable would be if he can find somebody in the south of England that can make the alloy.

I just noticed Runfiverun suggests using zinc. I recall doing some reading a while ago about using zinc in the mix and then using the zinc to draw copper into the mix. It all got a bit complicated for me, or I was over complicating it for myself, but it sounds as if it would really harden the alloy considerably.

I don't know which powders you can get over there or which mold you have, but I've just had a look in Lee's second edition, and there are 357 loads that will do what you want.
158gr bullet with 7gr HS6 15500cup
125gr bullet with 5.5gr HP38 18800cup, you can go down to 4.6gr powder on this one.
148gr wadcutter with 2.8gr Bullseye only goes 10000psi. Other powders in this loading include, Amer-select, Greendot, Reddot, Unique,IMR 700X. All these are under 16000cup
There are also a number of loads in the Lyman cast bullet handbook. This book also shows that you need to keep a close eye on your loads, because the 158gr load with HS6 goes up real quick after 7gr, 9.2gr is 35700cup, and 10.2 is 42700cup.
If you already have your mold and it is a plainbase you could add a PB gascheck which you make yourself out of recycled beercans. I've used these and they work well at reducing both leading and group size.

[njc110381]

I don't have a mold yet, but have ordered a plainbase 158gr 6 cavity from Lee.

Powder wise we have most things. I've got Unique here that I load in my .45-70, and my local shop has everything you listed apart from Amer-select. I've not heard of that one. As I'm loading for a rifle I was thinking of getting a slower one, but I'm not sure what yet.

I'm off to try to find more info on the PB gas check that I can make from beer cans! That sounds interesting

[bangerjim]

I shoot ~2% Sn in a mix of ~9-10 hardness in 357 MAGs all the time. Powder coating is the key for my needs! No grease allowed.


10% Sn is just plain wasteful. Sb is cheap.


bangerjim

[robg]

Njc I use that Lee mold 2cavity version tumble lubed with 7 grains of true blue powder good groups no leading in my trapper .rcbs gas check mold works well with 8.5grains tumble lubed as well.you'll get addicted in no time ,I don't need to size my Lee boolits just shoot as cast.

[BAGTIC]

"Can I get low enough pressure in a .357 to use 90/10 lead/tin? "

You can get pressure so low the bullet will stick in the barrel without ever coming out the muzzle.

[gundownunder]

You can find your PB checkmaker here http://www.patmarlins.com/
I can cut about 200 38 cal checks from a standard 375ml can.

As for your powder selection, I would think that any powder listed for the 38 spl could be used in the 357 with a powder increase of about 8% - 10% to give you the same load density in the bigger case, and you should get similar pressure.
BUT PLEASE, DON'T TAKE MY WORD FOR THIS.

Hope you have better luck with that mold than I did. My Marlin rifle hates the 158gr bullet weight, but shines with a 180gr.
I've read many reports by Rossi shooters and they all seem to like the 158gr.

[runfiverun]

except the new Taurus ones they want a 125 for the most part.