Define 'Honour'.

[UKShootist]

One of the hardest tasks I've ever researched, I think. What is honourable? Why is a thing dishonourable?

What I'm looking for is a strict, universal, definition that will apply across the board. Some of the confusion? The SS motto was "My Honour is my loyalty." In Britain we are hearing of an increasing number of 'honour killings' among South Asian families, where parents will kill a child (usually a female) for refusing to marry who they are told to, or for consorting with someone of a different faith or caste, because it brings 'dishonour' on the family. While not so extreme in their reaction, it's not uncommon for many Christian based sects to 'shun' someone who acts in a way that is looked down upon

It is clear that what is honourable for some is dishonourable for others, yet it seems to me that there ought to be a workable definition. My attempt, still a work in progress, involves honesty, holding to one's word, and speaking the truth. I have yet to put it into a definition but I think that is all that is needed.

If you are of the school of thought that "if you have to ask you'll never understand" then try me with your definition and I'll see if I can dismantle it. (I'm not looking for an argument, just a discussion leading to a useful definition.)

[Hickory]

Before one can understand honour, you first need to understand shame.

[Dryball]

Honor can take all kinds of forms and it's dependent on culture, time period, ethics and a myriad of other qualities. What was honorable for the SS isn't/wasn't the same for some. What was honorable for the British and Indians during the American Revolution was not the same for the US...you could go on and on. I suppose you could devise a list of traits but they would have to be subject to several mitigators

[Lloyd Smale]

yup its hard to define because every culture has a different ideal of what it means. To me its pretty simple. A honorable man treats people better then he would expect them to treat him.
Honor can take all kinds of forms and it's dependent on culture, time period, ethics and a myriad of other qualities. What was honorable for the SS isn't/wasn't the same for some. What was honorable for the British and Indians during the American Revolution was not the same for the US...you could go on and on. I suppose you could devise a list of traits but they would have to be subject to several mitigators

[OS OK]

Different meanings depending on context in which it is used? Several definitions?

In the Marine Core, it's 'God, Country, Core and your sworn oath to defend'.
In my early childhood, born 1950, It was being 'good for your word', a handshake seals a deal so to speak. What you say could be taken to the Bank…regardless of circumstance.

[UKShootist]

I think we are still a mile out. The story of the 47 Ronin strikes me as fairly honourable. The ronin remained loyal to their murdered master, took their revenge, which may not have been too honourable but that's debateable, and surrendered to face their inevitable punishment. It is the last that makes them honourable in my opinion. You can debate the act but they were true to their word and didn't lie, at least once it was over. The things that people do may be classed as honourable or dishonourable by another society's standards, but there has to be an over-riding definition that will cover them all. Even with the Asian 'honour killings', if the would be killer has been open and honest about his intentions should the situation arise, and then admits fully his part in the killing then there is honour, albeit of a most distasteful thing. Honour does not require one to be 'nice'.

I believe that many military academies have an honour code that basically amounts to not telling a lie, and very little else. That seems like a very good start.

[leftiye]

Synonymous with righteousness. Doesn't exist without it. Definitions that involve less than civilized actions being honorable are flawed. Personal honor is being established in one's righteousness.

[buckwheatpaul]

When I was going through assessment centers programs for promotion, within the L. E. circles, I was often told that we, the department, can teach ethics and honor and I told them that you can not teach it. You can build on it but if the recruits come to the department without ethics and honor then they will routinely find a way around it....I told them that if you have ethic and honorable candidates then you can mold them and build upon their foundation. As a result of allowing virtually anyone to be a L. E. officer the agency that I retired from is routinely having to fire and discipline more and more officers because of their failure to raise the bar......on the bigger picture just look at the Federal Govt right now....are we better off now than 8 years ago....8 years of lying and cheating and the utter lack of honor has brought this country to its knees and now virtually anything goes.....

I went the long way around to say this. Honor is something that is taught to people from an early age. It cant be taught to people who only think of themselves and have the attitude that anything goes. It is always doing the right thing even when it is the hardest route. Honor is always keeping your word....the old idea of your word is your bond. Thus ends my rant and thank you for your patience.

[jcwit]

yup its hard to define because every culture has a different ideal of what it means. To me its pretty simple. A honorable man treats people better then he would expect them to treat him.

I think Lloyd's idea fits it as well an any, and better than most!

[OS OK]

When I was going through assessment centers programs for promotion, within the L. E. circles, I was often told that we, the department, can teach ethics and honor and I told them that you can not teach it. You can build on it but if the recruits come to the department without ethics and honor then they will routinely find a way around it....I told them that if you have ethic and honorable candidates then you can mold them and build upon their foundation. As a result of allowing virtually anyone to be a L. E. officer the agency that I retired from is routinely having to fire and discipline more and more officers because of their failure to raise the bar......on the bigger picture just look at the Federal Govt right now....are we better off now than 8 years ago....8 years of lying and cheating and the utter lack of honor has brought this country to its knees and now virtually anything goes.....

I went the long way around to say this. Honor is something that is taught to people from an early age. It cant be taught to people who only think of themselves and have the attitude that anything goes. It is always doing the right thing even when it is the hardest route. Honor is always keeping your word....the old idea of your word is your bond. Thus ends my rant and thank you for your patience.

Excellent!…I hate seeing all this bad commentary on the Cops today. They, honorable ones, should not have to wear egg on their faces, bear the responsibility or have their integrity questioned over the acts of those who are brought into service under these loose standards.
I was brought up in a family where Cops and Patrol cars were always in the front drive, Dads friends stoping by after work before heading on further out to where they lived or just stopping in for some particular reason. Dad was a celebrated and decorated Criminal Investigator for Harris Co. Houston, worked for Sheriff C.V. Buster Kerns, honor and integrity followed him all of his terms. All the Cops I ever knew were in my estimation fine gentlemen with emphasis on the latter especially since being in the South.
I raised my kids with the saying…"if you ever get lost or in trouble, first thing to do is find a Cop!'' I would hesitate to include that in todays circumstances though.

I wish all could recognize these circumstances and have/keep the respect due those who daily risk it all…charlie

[Pine Baron]

Honesty, sincerity and responsibility. Keeping you "word", as a few have already said.
I agree with Leftiye.

[WILCO]

Simple Definition of honor

: respect that is given to someone who is admired

: good reputation : good quality or character as judged by other people

: high moral standards of behavior


Source: Merriam-Webster's Learner's Dictionary

[WILCO]

http://funny-pictures-blog.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/LOLPics-Honour.jpg

[MrWolf]

^Bingo. Good post WILCO.

[blackthorn]

I was thinking "Golden Rule"! But I think Lloyd (post #4) likely said it better.

[Blackwater]

In the most technical of senses, which is rare when we're talking about words an their meanings, I'd opine that it's simply living up to one's beliefs, however right or wrong any of them can be. The 47 ronin are certainly a great and amazing example of that. What they did was truly humbling. And every one of them paid with their lives for their honor.

As someone above noted, to the Marines, it's simply always being faithful to their mission, no matter what, and fighting well and smart and helping a buddy who's down, and just generally living up to the body of principles they establish and hold.

An old mountain boy buddy of mine once said something that kind'a at least, addresses the issue. He said, "You can break anyone's rules but your own." And that's about as close as I can come, verbally. Like a justice said of pornography, "I know it when I see it, but I'm not sure I can define it." Lot of truth there, but my mountain boy buddy did as well as anyone I know in defining it, at least generally.

I think "faithful" would be a synonym? Just my 2 cents' worth, anyway.

[TheDoctor]

Honor is what you have when you do the right thing. And what the other guy doesn't have when he hoses you over BECAUSE you did the right thing!

In the end, honor is a debt that you owe yourself. A good man knows what it is, even if he can't put it into words, and lives by it. A scumsucker might know what it is, but doesn't care.

It's a composite, an amalgam of things like integrity, honesty, loyalty, and respect. Something that most people these days are sadly lacking.

In other words, a man who has it, doesn't need it defined. A man who lacks it, wouldn't understand, no matter how it was explained to him.

[robg]

Being true to your word.hand shake seals the deal,being honest.

[Rick Hodges]

Honor has to do with keeping principles. Which principles? There is the rub.

[dtknowles]

Honor has to do with keeping principles. Which principles? There is the rub.

Like honor among thieves, or KKK or Gangs. All depends on your group or code.

Tim

[Lloyd Smale]

your right paul. You either have it or you don't. If your parents didn't raise you that way and you didn't come preprogramed to it, it takes a lot more then an classroom instructor to instill it in your brain. There is no honor in prejudice. Most of the prejudices came from our parents and environment when we were young. How many of us can claim to be totally without prejudice??? I'm betting the percentage is single digit and I'm not one on that list. Honor is like Christianity. Lots of people try to be good Christians but few actually are. I like to think though that even if your trying to be honorable and are trying to be a better man your at least a giant foot up on 75 percent of the population of earth.
When I was going through assessment centers programs for promotion, within the L. E. circles, I was often told that we, the department, can teach ethics and honor and I told them that you can not teach it. You can build on it but if the recruits come to the department without ethics and honor then they will routinely find a way around it....I told them that if you have ethic and honorable candidates then you can mold them and build upon their foundation. As a result of allowing virtually anyone to be a L. E. officer the agency that I retired from is routinely having to fire and discipline more and more officers because of their failure to raise the bar......on the bigger picture just look at the Federal Govt right now....are we better off now than 8 years ago....8 years of lying and cheating and the utter lack of honor has brought this country to its knees and now virtually anything goes.....

I went the long way around to say this. Honor is something that is taught to people from an early age. It cant be taught to people who only think of themselves and have the attitude that anything goes. It is always doing the right thing even when it is the hardest route. Honor is always keeping your word....the old idea of your word is your bond. Thus ends my rant and thank you for your patience.

[Echo]

Don't Lie, Don't Cheat, Don't Steal. (But, of course, each need to be closely defined)

[JWT]

Do the right thing, even if no one else ever knows.

[country gent]

Honor is standing up for ones neliefs and what is "right" in ones eyes. despite it being politically correct or popular. Honor is the way of living your life

[rl69]

Doing what's right no matter the cost

[Blackwater]

Thought some more, and came up with, "Honor is upholding our beliefs, especially when they're sorely tested and countered." Great question in the OP. It really is one of those things that are, in the ultimate sense, really defiant of good definition in words.

[10x]

The ability to make someone's life easier or better even though you don't have to, and even if you don't particularly like them. Doing the right thing for the benifit of others rather than doing what gives personal short term gain.

[UKShootist]

Being true to your word.hand shake seals the deal,being honest.

About the closest so far, I think.

[UKShootist]

Honor is standing up for ones neliefs and what is "right" in ones eyes. despite it being politically correct or popular. Honor is the way of living your life

Using your post as an example of many that are similar, if you met a man that cut his 14 year old daughter's throat because he felt she dishonoured her family by refusing to marry a 50 year old cousin of hers, you would treat him as an honourable man? I, for one, would not, and yet his version of honour is so ingrained he would do such a thing to protect it.

My opinion of him might be moderated if he announced in advance to the world that he would do such a thing (before she was offered the marriage) and then freely admitted it afterwards, because then he would at least be true to his word both before and after the event.

I nearly always seen to revert to defining honour by it's absence, which is not really a satisfactory way of doing so. With an honourable man you at least know who you are dealing with. With a liar or a breaker of oaths you never will. So, honour for me is a fairly simple condition where an honourable person tells the truth at all times (carefully with the 'does my bum look big in this' scenario) and keeps his word, once given, unequivocally. (As a corollary, he will make sure of what he is promising before he promises, but then that makes lawyers of us all.)

[NavyVet1959]

When we talk about honor, it's different than the form of the word that the people in question are using. They're talking about family honor -- how others in their group will view them because of actions by their offspring or whatever. For them, an offspring that brings shame upon the family has to be dealt with in such a manner. Although we use the same word, we are not talking about the same thing.

[leftiye]

Weasel and honor aren't synonyms. Only some few barbarians have honor. Not to be confused with public pride. Honor you still have regardless of who knows it. The only killers who might possess honor would be those who protect self or others (not to include from the neighbors disapproval).

[Yellow Fang]

"Doing that which is right and commendable in the eyes of another."

As already noted, the "another" is the conundrum.

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