PDA

View Full Version : Gun safe in garage...cold winters, hot summers



cheese1566
05-29-2016, 09:25 PM
Well, i finally got a real safe.
Its a used Liberty 30 gun and weighs over 700 pounds. Problem is, i dont believe my wood steps and deck will support the load and move into the house. I am still checking with the local locksmith who also sells and moves big gun safes. I will have him look and get an estimate for a move. He told me he has put several in garages and places golden rods in them.

I was contemplating keeping it my detached, but insulated garage. I acquired a 24" golden rod and numerous dessicant products. I am concerned about the low temps in winter and hot temps in summer here in South Dakota.
The area of the black hills where i am has low humidity and the safe is still on the factory pallet.

Any body have their safe in the same?

Yes, the best would be in the basement, but probably may not happen.
No, not worried about thieves as it is bolted down, covered, on video, and its pretty robust.

buckwheatpaul
05-29-2016, 09:57 PM
Got the same setup.....have a golden rod as well as a rechargeable dehumidifier....extremely hot and humid summers and wet cold winters....no problem.......good luck....Paul

Petrol & Powder
05-29-2016, 10:24 PM
I think you'll be OK with the golden rod. A couple of points to make:
1. Don't put the safe directly on the concrete floor. Make a small pedestal with solid treated lumber and bolt it down to the concrete floor through the wooden pedestal. It doesn't need to be super high, just one (1.5") or two boards (3") off the floor. That does two things - it help to protect it from minor flooding like if a pipe breaks and it helps to keep the moisture from the concrete from migrating into the safe. It will cost you a couple of 2 x 6 boards and 15 minutes of work and it can save you thousands later.

2. Disguise the safe. The best defense starts with hiding the safe. Build a false wall, make it look like duct work, etc. Any attack on a safe will be successful given enough time. Delay the starting point for that potential attack by hiding the safe. They can't start breaking into it until they find it.

3. I don't care how much I try to hold humidity at bay, I still use RIG (Universal Rust Inhibiting Grease from Birchwood Casey) on all valuable ferrous metal items placed in long term storage. It might be overkill but I have had bad experiences with rust and I will not go down that road again.

Good Luck

454PB
05-29-2016, 10:29 PM
I've now had my gun safe in a similar (unheated normally, but insulated) building for 12 years with no problems at all. I don't even have any equipment to reduce humidity, which is relatively low here in Montana.

RP
05-29-2016, 10:48 PM
The only problem i have keeping my safes in these type areas is the temp change when you open the door. If its been real cold and the core temp in the safe is lower then the temp outside the safe you will get a sweaty rifle. Best way to explain it is when your glasses fog coming in the house. I do have a rod in the safe but it can only do so much.

cheese1566
05-29-2016, 11:13 PM
I've now had my gun safe in a similar (unheated normally, but insulated) building for 12 years with no problems at all. I don't even have any equipment to reduce humidity, which is relatively low here in Montana.

Good to hear. If you are suceessful in Helena, i should be good where i am at.

Minerat
05-30-2016, 01:39 PM
Don't tie it down and it will get legs and leave. A buddy of mine had that happen. Seems a tow truck mashed in the door they threw the cable around the safe and drug it out and hauled it away. He does not have a humidity problem in it any more. I put both of mine in the basement and then bolted them down. Just be aware that if you can see the safe from the driveway so can a thief.

Remember those that served and serve now.

dualsport
05-30-2016, 02:00 PM
Have someone who knows what they're looking at to check out your stairs. They 'should' hold that weight but who knows? Old? Flimsy to start with? A failure would be real bad. Hire a crane? Not that much for peace of mind.

NavyVet1959
05-30-2016, 02:34 PM
The problem with putting it in a garage is that you've opened up a whole new level of methods for the thieves to use to steal the safe. They now can use another vehicle to pull the safe off of its mountings and then put it in the back up a pickup to be opened elsewhere at their leisure. Around here, the weather is so hot and humid in the summer (all 9+ months of it) that I would never consider putting a safe in a garage even if I wasn't concerned about the theft issue. If you just *have* to put it in a garage, build yourself an extremely small room around it. so that it is not visible from when the garage door is open, plus it limits the ability of thieves to put the safe on its side or back and be able to exert more force on it. Cinder block walls are easy to break through unless you fill the voids with concrete and rebar tied to the slab of the building.

How about posting a photo of the deck / steps in question?

500MAG
05-30-2016, 02:47 PM
Have mine in the garage with a goldenrod. Only issue I ever had was when it got unplugged and wasn't noticed. Did get some mold but was able to get it cleaned out with no problems. I keep a piece of plywood leaning in front of it so that it is not noticed when the garage door is opened.

country gent
05-30-2016, 03:02 PM
The golden rods are good for humidity and reliable as also stated be sure to bolt it in good and solid with as many heavy bolts as possible to floors and or walls. If bolting into concrete there are epoxy kist to secure anchors more solidly into the concrete floors and block walls. WHen using these epoxy kits a very rough surface on the holes sides is a big plus it gives room for epoxy and much more "Bite" for it. In a pinch a 5 0r 10 watt light bulb burning in it will hold a pretty even temp and keep humidity away also. But the constant heat if to high may dry out wood to much would take some experimenting to figure out. We use an old small refridgerator with a 10 watt bulb for storing welding rods it keeps them dry and they are warm to handle.

cheese1566
05-30-2016, 04:29 PM
Well, my last lines says its bolted down and covered....
in the basement is my preference, but ain't gonna happen.

theft wise, I would rather have my big Liberty safe in the garage, then my cheapo $75 Stack-On in the basement.

NavyVet1959
05-30-2016, 05:11 PM
If you stumble across an old Mosler safe on Craigslist, build a form around it, set it in concrete, and leave it visible as a decoy. :)

http://images.craigslist.org/00p0p_5kd73DREjS3_600x450.jpg

Allowing the hole to remain in the top of the above safe would be even better since the concrete could flow down into the safe to secure it even better. The only thing that I could think that would be better would be to put some explosives in it so that it would send out a directional blast straight out the door if they managed to somehow open it.

http://images.spambob.net/navy-vet-1959/evil-grin-64w.jpg

30calflash
05-30-2016, 05:43 PM
Hi, your question early on about getting 700lbs up stairs and into the house.

You could build a temp ramp for that aspect of moving. Same goes for shoring the deck, maybe double 2x6's and a couple bottle jacks for support.

Not sure on the Liberty brand but Browning has theirs built so the door can be removed, making one heavy piece two moderate weight pieces.

Helped a few friends move theirs, thankfully not UP stairs! Temporary ramps, cable winch or binders and some TLC got them in place.

I do not care for the garage idea for protection as already mentioned. HTH, 30cf

Bullwolf
05-30-2016, 08:17 PM
Not sure if this is relevant or not, but when helping a friend move an extremely heavy safe up a series of concrete steps.

We found success using a 4 ton automotive floor jack to lift the safe up onto each of the steps.

The jack used, was a lot like the one in the image below.

http://c.shld.net/rpx/i/s/i/spin/image/spin_prod_206426701?hei=400&wid=400&op_sharpen=1&resMode=sharp&op_usm=0.9,0.5,0,0

We also had to rent a commercial dolly, and uses tie down straps to attach the safe to the dolly. It worked well for us anyways.

Every safe moving project is a unique adventure. Good luck!



- Bullwolf

Bullwolf
05-30-2016, 08:47 PM
Regarding the humidity issue:

I found a few two packs of these Stack-On rechargeable cordless desiccant dehumidifiers for sale quite reasonably at the local Tractor Supply. I'm still using the original units that I purchased a few years ago.

http://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/product/stack-on-wireless-rechargeable-dehumidifier


http://media.midwayusa.com/productimages/320x240/Primary/141/141736.jpg

They are rechargeable (plug in overnight to recharge) silica gel desiccant pack with a color indicator on the front. On the back side they have a folding wall outlet plug for recharging if needed, and they come with a hook as well to hang the item up if you so desire.

What I like most about them is the color indicator, instead of just tossing a bag of silica gel in the safe and not knowing if it is still good, or used up.

Midway carries them as well, and stocks a newer version of the Stack-On dehumidifier.

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/918165/stack-on-wireless-rechargeable-silica-gel-desiccant-dehumidifier-protects-100-cubic-feet-white

I have also seen the Stack-On cordless dehumidifiers with a Remington brand label on the top, in various high end sporting goods stores.

Stack-On's web page:
https://www.stack-on.com/categories/accessories/products/83

Simply place one in a safe, and check on the color indicator when you remember. If the indicator has turned pink showing it has absorbed moisture, just plug it in overnight until the indicator is blue again to "refresh" the unit.

Since I have a few, I can cycle them around if needed. I store the refreshed or unused dehumidifiers in a sealed Zip-Loc bag when not in use so they don't absorb moisture from the air around them.

I've been using them mostly as an humidity indicator, and a bit of back up insurance along with a golden rod. I've recharged them many times, and the ones that I have are still going strong.


No more mold problems in the safe for me.



- Bullwolf

cheese1566
05-30-2016, 09:28 PM
The safe had an identical Stack-On desiccant unit in it when I bought it. I recharged it overnight and good to go.

dragon813gt
05-30-2016, 09:45 PM
One of mine is an unconditioned area. It's semitropical in the summer and winter lows in single digits aren't uncommon. I haven't had any issues. I did put the safe up on washers. You don't need a lot of space underneath. You don't want metal in direct contact w/ the concrete and you want air to be able to move under it. Washers are thick enough to achieve this.

I don't like goldenrods. They take up to much room. I have two of these PEET safe driers in mine: PEET Dryer - SafeKeeping Dryer for Gun Storage https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00486U71E/ref=cm_sw_r_api_IQotxbZWNM1QF
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00486U71E/ref=cm_sw_r_api_IQotxbZWNM1QF

They fit in the two front corners where you can't store anything anyway. One was not enough to keep the humidity low enough in the safe. Two of them are able to keep the safe a few degrees above ambient and the humidity below 50%.

My biggest issue is when it's been cold for many days and then we get a sudden warm day. Nothing in the space has had time to warm up. I do not open the doors into the space when it's like this. The warm air hitting the cold surfaces means instant condensation. I don't take anything out of the safe on these days. Which are more frequent w/ the changing weather patterns. It does suck but I leave the entire space closed up until it's had time to come up to temp.

woodbutcher
05-30-2016, 10:35 PM
:twisted: About 25 years ago,a friend wanted a good gun safe.Bought an old safe out of an old bank that was being torn down.It was an old Mosler.Paid $500.00 for it,plus $50.00 to have it delivered to his property.Had his new house built around it.Never had a problem it.A friend of his that was a retired Mosler tech came and checked it out for him and reset the combination for him.No charge.Might have a bit of over kill,but some of the stuff he had was worth in the 5 figure area at the time.
Good luck.Have fun.Be safe.
Leo

NavyVet1959
05-30-2016, 10:48 PM
On a side note, I read where some of the Mosler bank safes in Hiroshima survived the blast.

Now, *that* is the kind of safe that I want... :)

Also, you can buy a temperature and humidity detector for an Arduino board and create remote sensing / reporting module for your safe if you so desired. The programming for it is pretty simple. I've done it for an Arduino board that I play around with, but haven't decided exactly what I want to use it for yet.

Blackwater
05-30-2016, 11:46 PM
The biggest problem you'll have in a non-climate controlled space is condensation, and that'll rust guns pretty quickly and efficiently. The problem is temperature changes, and the only way to prevent that is insulation. The volume of metal helps slow the rate, but even so, some days there'll be enough temp change (hot to cold causes condensation) that rust is likely going to be a problem. This means you'll either have to:

1. Keep guns well greased and hope for the best, at least in part of the year; or
2. Insulate around the safe so temps change slow enough to not cause condensation; or
3. Get that safe inside a heated and A/C'd environment.

Safes CAN be moved fairly easily all that's necessary is to lay it on its side and put a blanket under it, so it slides across the floor relatively easily. If you have to go over carpet, this is complicated, but a good, heavy tarp that's smooth and plasticized can still work, though with carpet, the force will be greater to slide it than over hardwood floors or the like.

I value my guns WAY beyond leaving them outside. Even the best of them CAN be gotten into, and if it's visible from the street or highway or road, it's almost an engraved invitation. It's amazing how resourceful those lazy thieves can be! It's some work, and with my bad back I'd have to rely on more able-bodied friends. Sure wouldn't hire off the street to help with something like this!

If it were me, I'd definitely move it inside. No question about it. I love some of my guns. Just can't see that kind of a "compromise" with them.

Petrol & Powder
05-31-2016, 06:33 PM
The problem with putting it in a garage is that you've opened up a whole new level of methods for the thieves to use to steal the safe. They now can use another vehicle to pull the safe off of its mountings and then put it in the back up a pickup to be opened elsewhere at their leisure. Around here, the weather is so hot and humid in the summer (all 9+ months of it) that I would never consider putting a safe in a garage even if I wasn't concerned about the theft issue. If you just *have* to put it in a garage, build yourself an extremely small room around it. so that it is not visible from when the garage door is open, plus it limits the ability of thieves to put the safe on its side or back and be able to exert more force on it. Cinder block walls are easy to break through unless you fill the voids with concrete and rebar tied to the slab of the building.

How about posting a photo of the deck / steps in question?

/\ totally agree with this /\

And if you make a small room around the safe, orient the safe and the door to that room so the door to that room isn't visible from the open garage door. It should look like an extension of the garage walls on first glance from outside the garage.

Minerat
06-01-2016, 10:59 PM
You might find out if the door comes off. My Irwin safe weighs about 800 lbs and we took the door off and moved it down in 2 pieces. Might help if you are concerned about the stairs.

cheese1566
06-01-2016, 11:48 PM
I had the local locksmith who deals in gun safes give me a free estimate today. He checked my patio steps and gave some suggestions to beef them up. He gave an estimate of $250 to move it from the garage to basement setting. He looked it up and found it weighs close to 800 pounds.

Problem I realized now is my basement is not yet complete as we still need flooring/carpet in the basement. It would make easy moving, but I don't want to move it again in the future when we carpet. It is on the factory pallet and i am considering leaving it on and trimming up in oak. The carpet layers could then floor it up to it. If I move, it would stay in the house....

Best thing is, wife considers it cheap to move and would have no problem in the cost. We talked about it and it would be cheap enough; especially considering if a friend or family member gets hurt while trying to move it ourselves. She has had enough in helping me move it from the storage unit to the garage. We used her father's truck with a Tommy Lift and a pallet jack as it was all on concrete. Good thing I married her as she has access to a Tommy Lift and knows how to run it!!!!

NavyVet1959
06-02-2016, 07:28 AM
If you only have a couple of steps and enough people and it only weighs 800 lbs, you can move it up to the steps and roll it over so that it bridges the steps and avoids them. That would be easy enough going up the outside steps to the house. Going down into a basement or any long staircase would need a different technique. Putting it on it's side and sliding it via a hand winch / comealong gives you other options though.

Photos of the obstacles that you face would help...

My safe is 1600 lbs and I can move it myself as long as I take my time. If you try to get in a hurry, you can hurt yourself.

lightman
06-02-2016, 07:52 AM
I would pay the $250 and go for the basement. A garage is not a good place for a safe. Temperature swings, easy automobile access for thieves, usually close to your tools, garage doors are easy to break into, ect ect. I understand if its your only choice.

ole 5 hole group
06-02-2016, 10:34 AM
To keep the safe off the cement floor - I used a hockey puck under each corner.

fg-machine
06-02-2016, 11:57 AM
my oldest brother had a similar issue with where to put a safe and decided to put his in the garage as well , with a bit of concern of it being stolen
he got the bright idea of using some 2 part epoxy along with some bolts to keep it secure .

after slathering the back side of the safe and the concrete block wall it was going against with about a quart of the stuff along with a few anchors threw the feet it indeed felt very secure from the common thief .

fast forward about 15 years and a day comes when its time for him to move to a new house .. we took out the floor anchors and he attempted to break the epoxy's bond with a crow bar ... nothing happening three grown men couldnt get a wiggle out of .
then came the bright idea of a chain and pickup truck .. a couple cautious tugs with the truck and still no movement . two not so cautious tugs later and we had a broken chain for our troubles . at that point it was decided to leave the safe for the houses new owner before we pulled the wall down .

Elkins45
06-02-2016, 11:25 PM
My 1050 pound safe is in the garage. I rolled it into place on a layer of steel BBs and just left them there when I bolted it down. Every so often I stick the hose of a can of WD 40 under it and give it a squirt.

NavyVet1959
06-03-2016, 02:08 AM
To keep the safe off the cement floor - I used a hockey puck under each corner.

If you leave space under our safe, you are giving the thieves a leverage point and making it easier for them.

Petrol & Powder
06-03-2016, 08:22 AM
If you leave space under our safe, you are giving the thieves a leverage point and making it easier for them.
True, A simple pedestal made of 1.5" dimensional lumber, cut to match the footprint of the safe will get it off the floor without providing a gap for a pry bar/chain/etc. Two layers will give you 3". A simple trim piece of stained oak or whatever could be screwed onto the pedestal to dress it up a bit if desired.

In a previous house with a crawl space, I used threaded rods through the safe floor down into the crawl space. The two rods were joined by a section of channel iron that spanned across a couple of floor joists.

cheese1566
06-03-2016, 08:42 AM
Everybody!!! We have been storing our guns wrong!!

we can only insure they won't be stolen by burying them in the ground at least 30 feet in an unmarked, undisclosed location in the dark of night while the backhoe is out of sight under a fake building so no passerby can see and undetected by satellites overhead.
Foiled, I guess the thieves can access a shovel too.

If they want in, they will. Nothing will stop them given the time. Locks, safes, lights, cameras are just deterrent and minor obstacles. Locks only keep the honest out and stop temptation. I've seen entire ATM mchines get swiped off the bolted floor.

Everyone says a safe in the garage is a bad thing since others can potentially see it. Do you not think neighbors or others don't see you hauling in and out your hunting and shooting gear, gun cases, targets?

A meth head tweaker usually has no job and can wait around watching your place. Sometimes I think I would choose having them burglarize the garage rather my home.

Best thing we can do is minimize our theft potential. If I get to the point of having to build a fortress around my safe, then what's the point?

NavyVet1959
06-03-2016, 10:20 AM
Best thing we can do is minimize our theft potential. If I get to the point of having to build a fortress around my safe, then what's the point?

Redneck claymores and 55g open top drums for disposal of bio-waste.

Petrol & Powder
06-03-2016, 01:13 PM
While it's true that you cannot stop a determined thief, all fortifications have the same goal and that is to buy you time.
Any fixed defensive position can be taken with enough time, man-power and supplies. Most thieves don't have those resources available so I can trade a little fortification for a little time and win that battle.

Elkins45
06-05-2016, 08:39 AM
If you leave space under our safe, you are giving the thieves a leverage point and making it easier for them.

That's why I was OK with leaving the BBs under mine: 0.177 isn't much of a leverage point.

How thick is a hockey puck? I'd imagine you could fit a big prybar into the space left by one of those.


In a previous house with a crawl space, I used threaded rods through the safe floor down into the crawl space. The two rods were joined by a section of channel iron that spanned across a couple of floor joists.

That's very clever.

dk17hmr
06-05-2016, 09:02 AM
I've now had my gun safe in a similar (unheated normally, but insulated) building for 12 years with no problems at all. I don't even have any equipment to reduce humidity, which is relatively low here in Montana.

Change 12 years to 5 years and Montana to Wyoming and that is my situation as well.

NavyVet1959
06-06-2016, 02:26 AM
That's why I was OK with leaving the BBs under mine: 0.177 isn't much of a leverage point.

At that size, I would be more concerned with it allowing space for a metal cutting blade to slide underneath it and allowing someone to more easily cut the bolts. Maybe a large stainless steel fender washer on each bolt between the bottom of the safe and concrete would slow down that sort of cutting though.

Since many of us have a lot of our tools in our garages, we would be giving them a lot more options on tools to use than what they brought themselves.

In the end, it's just a matter of how much time they are willing to spend, how much noise they're willing to make, and how much destruction to the safe and building they're willing to do.

leadman
06-07-2016, 04:52 AM
I put most of my guns in Sack-Ups. They are silicone treated fabric sleeves that form to the gun. This is mostly to prevent scratches and dings but they also protect the guns from rust and smoke damage from a fire. The guns look better than when I put them in the Sack-ups when I pulled some out to go shooting. Some of the similar looking sleeves do not have the silicone treatment and are made overseas. Sack-Ups are made in the USA. Condensation should not be able to form on the gun in a Sack-UP.

TXGunNut
06-07-2016, 11:23 PM
$250 is cheap if you don't have the equipment and know how to use it safely.

NavyVet1959
06-08-2016, 12:35 AM
$250 is cheap if you don't have the equipment and know how to use it safely.

Yeah, he mentioned putting it in a basement and negotiating more than one or two steps gets tricky. It's a lot easier for the guys who have the equipment to do it. They have a device that looks like a battery operated hand truck. It tilts the safe backward slightly and then actually *climbs* the stairs. The guy is able to take it up the stairs with *no* effort. Something like this:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RO6FJQoi0H8

If *I* was having to move my safe up that many steps, I would bring it up the the edge of the stairs and lay it on it's side going up the stairs. If the stairs were carpeted, I would probably just let it slide on the carpet. Many safes have a thread in the top into which a large eye bolt can be threaded. You could attach a cable to the eye bolt and then winch it up the stair incline with a comealong. Of course, that's assuming you have something at the top of the stairs that you can attach the comealong to and that there is enough room at the top of the stairs to have a safe on it's side.

Moving it along a flat surface is easy. Just put some golf balls or pipe underneath it as rollers. As they come out one side, put them in front of the safe. If your stairway landings are a bit crowded for space, it's probably best to hire someone with one of the motorized stair climbers.