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DougGuy
05-26-2016, 10:49 AM
First flight is imminent..

http://www.b-29doc.com/

After 42 Years as a Bomb Range Target, This World War II Bomber is Taking to the Skies Again (http://tribunist.com/news/after-42-years-as-a-bomb-range-target-this-world-war-ii-bomber-is-taking-to-the-skies-again/)
A World War II bomber that spent more than four decades as a target for the United States Navy is taking to the skies again! The B-29 Superfortress known as “Doc” will join “Fifi” the only other of the mega-bombers still flying today.
http://tribunist.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/0522B2-1024x538.jpg


Low speed taxi video:


http://www.youtu.be/watch?v=bwMG17xhz44

osteodoc08
05-26-2016, 11:54 AM
Awesome. Can't wait to see her fly. Amazing how graceful she still seems

JWT
05-26-2016, 08:02 PM
Beautiful

square butte
05-26-2016, 08:39 PM
Nuthin like a low level pass of FIFI to get your heart thumpin. I hope I get to see DOC fly

Mytmousemalibu
05-26-2016, 09:08 PM
This has been a long time coming! Just had a walk around it on the ramp here a couple months ago, Doc is a beauty! One hurdle they have is the restoration was finalized where it had been, here on former Boeing property which shares the runways & taxiways with McConnell AFB which is a logistical nightmare with a civilian ship on military property. When it leaves the ground on its maiden flight, it can't land back at the base without serious issues & implications. Luckily we are not short of near by places go within a couple miles but it is something for the Doc crew to think about. The fellers that got it where it is today have put in a lot of hard work and it shows! Proud of those guys!

DougGuy
05-26-2016, 09:30 PM
Nuthin like a low level pass of FIFI to get your heart thumpin. I hope I get to see DOC fly

Fifi was in Norfolk, VA for a weekend many years ago, I went for the walk through tour, LOVED IT! Then on Monday morning when she flew out, there I was like a kid again, fingers hooked in the chain link fence at the end of the runway, just waiting for that scarcely heard low harmony of the four Pratt & Whitney radials. She took off under light throttle, but plenty of muscle to pull her into the sky, one engine popping a bit, what a wonderful sound.

Mytmousemalibu
05-27-2016, 12:57 AM
Fifi was in Norfolk, VA for a weekend many years ago, I went for the walk through tour, LOVED IT! Then on Monday morning when she flew out, there I was like a kid again, fingers hooked in the chain link fence at the end of the runway, just waiting for that scarcely heard low harmony of the four Pratt & Whitney radials. She took off under light throttle, but plenty of muscle to pull her into the sky, one engine popping a bit, what a wonderful sound.

Those actually would have been Curtis-Wright R-3350's you heard churning away! They were made by other companies besides Wright but Pratt wasn't one of them. Now the later B-50 and alternates like the KC-97, those were Pratt's. Those were the massive R-4360 "corncob" 4 row radial.

square butte
05-27-2016, 08:19 AM
I saw FIFI at an air show in Kalispell, MT in the 80's. It was certainly an impressive sight and sound to see her do a pass down the runway at only somewhere around 100 feet

DougGuy
05-27-2016, 08:53 AM
Those actually would have been Curtis-Wright R-3350's you heard churning away! They were made by other companies besides Wright but Pratt wasn't one of them. Now the later B-50 and alternates like the KC-97, those were Pratt's. Those were the massive R-4360 "corncob" 4 row radial.

Thank you for the correction..

Question.. The video of DOC says the engines are modern hybrids? What are those?

Blackwater
05-27-2016, 09:11 AM
Wow! How poignant! It spent its initial life in WWII as a target for the Germans, and THEN became one for our own guys .... and STILL it keeps on ticking along!!!! Timex envies those grand ol' planes! And the grand men who flew and maintained them. May God richly bless and keep them all! We all today owe them so very, very much! And the timing today is so poignant as well. Those guys who restored that grand plane are probably the humblest men on the planet too. Isn't it funny how that works? If we put our heads to work, and our shoulders against the resistance, it's amazing what can truly be achieved, is it not?

HABCAN
05-27-2016, 09:41 AM
Gently sorry, Blackwater, but the 29s flew in the Pacific.

Don Purcell
05-27-2016, 09:57 AM
My dad told me when he was in grade school that his teacher came into the room and put up a picture of a B-29 and told the class that this is our new bomber for our boys to bomb the Japs. These folks have done an absolutely fantastic job restoring this aircraft. Another B-29 awaits restoration to flying status but lingers waiting for more funds. Then there's Kermit Weeks B-29 that is in storage down in Florida.

oldred
05-27-2016, 10:50 AM
Gently sorry, Blackwater, but the 29s flew in the Pacific.

Yep, although the other bombers such as the B17, etc were used against the Japs in some areas of the Pacific war the Germans never were subjected to the mighty B29! The other bombers had the range and capability for that area of the war and the much longer range and firepower of the B29 was simply not needed there, besides by the time the B29s came into the war the bombing over Europe was being handily conducted by the B29s' smaller brothers and the 29s were all needed in the Pacific for those ultra long range missions.

Blackwater
05-27-2016, 12:28 PM
HABCAM, I stand corrected, and thanks. I think some were used in Europe for some special long range runs, though, weren't they? My Dad and father in law were both in the Pacific campaign. Had we not dropped the two A-bombs, I might not be here today. Seeing Obama there on Memorial Day makes me just plain LIVID! Whenever I think of WWII, I just naturally think of Germany, because we came awfully close to losing that war, were it not for some of Hitler's more inexplicable decisions and orders. But you're right, so thanks.

oldred
05-27-2016, 12:52 PM
No the B29 never flew in Europe during the war, about the closest they came was pictures in some German newspapers of this fearsome new bomber that those devilish Americans had and they were terrified it was going to show up in the skies over German cities. It never happened however and they were sent to the Pacific where they were desperately needed, in fact they sent them there as fast as they could build them. None were sent to Europe and it would not have been practical to do so unless they had of sent a relatively large fleet, the maintenance and support of just few B29s would have been a nightmare and they could not have operated without such support. It simply never happened anyway.

Ballistics in Scotland
05-27-2016, 02:01 PM
The B29 was a remarkably advanced aircraft for its day, with speed, altitude and a pressurized cockpit which made it almost invulnerable to most fighters and anti-aircraft guns. But by the time it could have become active in Europe the Luftwaffe was in such disarray that it didn't really need that kind of immunity. It was sent where there was most need of aircraft to deliver very large quantities of munitions, which meant the Pacific. One or very few B29s toured British air bases before the Normandy invasion, but that was disinformation intended to distort German defensive plans, and the decision not to use the had already been taken.

Late B29s were delivered without defensive armament except for one tail gun, to divert weight into a greater bomb load. But that gun was radar controlled, a very valuable innovation which smaller bombers, with a need for other radars, couldn't have. It was the first American aircraft to exceed the bomb load of the Avro Lancaster, but it couldn't carry as heavy a bomb, since twin bomb bays and a tunnel between two pressurized crew areas was an integral part of the design.

The Pratt and Whitney engines were indeed introduced post-war. The Wright Cyclones at that stage in their development were prone to overheating unless idling was minmized, and it was necessary to gain speed quickly after takeoff.

oldred
05-27-2016, 03:36 PM
Another very heavy bomber that was used in the campaign against Japan was the almost unheard of B32 Dominator that was ordered into production alongside the B29 as a backup long range bomber if the B29 had not have worked out, the war was coming to end just as it went into operation and it flew only a few missions. It's load capabilities and range was right up there with the 29 but it was not pressurized nor did it have the sophisticated fire control systems, it would however have been a formidable weapon and would have figured prominently in the bombing of Japan had the war continued into 1946. Since the war ended just as production was going into full swing only a few were built and the remaining orders were canceled but those that had arrived in the war zone did see some action and bombing missions then continued in service over Japan during the occupation after the war ended. They also have the dubious distinction of suffering the last air to air combat fatality of WWII, a few days after the surrender a disgruntled Japanese pilot took off in a Mitsubishi Zero and attacked a B32 on patrol resulting in the death of one of the crew members. The next day MacArthur ordered all the propellers to be removed on all Japanese military aircraft, although technically not a combat death that crewman did indeed die in combat as a result of the war!


Just another note about the B32, all were scrapped after the war and not a single example of that aircraft remains today.

Blackwater
05-27-2016, 06:26 PM
Thanks for the lessons and reminders, guys. My Dad was a Marine, but my best life-long friend's dad was the squadron navigator on a B-25 and flew the hump in India (China, India, Burma). I know most of what I've learned about the planes from him. If any of you plane affectionados ever get to Gerogia, there's a very neat museum of planes at Robbins AFB just outside of Macon, and in Savannah, the 8th Air Force Museum is a real must-see. Those old guys managed to finagle around and get real planes from the WWII era, and they are mostly hung from the ceiling. They took very little money and built one awesome and very moving museum, with mock bunkers with big screen TV's where you sit on ammo cans and other stuff, and watch some very good and very moving videos, with pretty good sound systems that make it seem more real than you'll probably find elsewhere unless you've got a good home theater setup. I think you'd all really be moved by it all, especially the 8th Air Force Musuem in Savannah. Those guys did almost all of it with volunteers who actually flew with the "Mighty 8th." I think it'll be a very fitting and lasting tribute to those guys for as long as we still have an America. I'll never cease being moved by those awesome guys and what they did, and so many others in that war. THOSE were REAL men!

MtGun44
05-27-2016, 08:47 PM
The engines being "modern hybrids" likely refers to the very complex, and even dangerous versions of the
venerable R3350 originally used in the B-29. The original WW2 engines use high magnesium alloy
in the crankcases, and if a fire managed to get the case lit, it would likely burn through the wing
spar. Late versions used steel crankcases (a friend has a NOS crankcase!) and there were other
changes to the supercharger sections, and even the DC-7 and Connstellation versions which used
turbo-compounding, where there were three power recovery turbines (like the turbine part of a
turbocharger) which instead of driving a supercharger compressor, were directly feeding power
back to the crankshaft, recovered from the exhaust stream.

The latest ones were the Skyraider versions, and my guess is that they now that what they really need
is engines which have parts still available, and are going to last a long time, so mixing and matching
years, supercharger sections, crankcases and even whether to use the high pressure direct injection
fuel system or carbs, all up for grabs to make a maintainable and sustainable and AFFORDABLE engine
rather than one that is original to these early war-built machines.

Still an "R-3350", but probably WAY different than the ones that were on it originally, and very
possibly unlike any other engines actually assembled at the factory, mixing different years and
versions to get what they need, a durable engine which they can afford to run.

At the light weights which it will operate for the rest of it's years, it needs only a small fraction of
the original HP.

Bill

Bad Water Bill
05-28-2016, 06:45 AM
Just a little off topic but someone mentioned the hump.

Last year on veterans day I walked into a local gun shop.

Sitting there was an old man with a WW2 VETERANs cap on his head.

He is suffering with alzheimers said a relative so pay no attention to anything he says as he never did anything usefull in his life.

My dad died with the same problem so I know that these folks will remember very clearly what they did 50-70 years ago but are confused about the recent past.

I started by asking the old vet just what he did during the war.

"I drove a truck over the Burma hump many times and thank god for our fighter pilots that protected us he said".

To bad none of his family ever sat down and spent some time just talking with that real hero.

When the family member started to drive away with him I yelled HEY and threw my best salute to him.

With a BIG smile on his face he suddenly sat up very straight and returned my salute.

That is a memory I will never forget.

richhodg66
05-28-2016, 06:56 AM
Another very heavy bomber that was used in the campaign against Japan was the almost unheard of B32 Dominator that was ordered into production alongside the B29 as a backup long range bomber if the B29 had not have worked out, the war was coming to end just as it went into operation and it flew only a few missions. It's load capabilities and range was right up there with the 29 but it was not pressurized nor did it have the sophisticated fire control systems, it would however have been a formidable weapon and would have figured prominently in the bombing of Japan had the war continued into 1946. Since the war ended just as production was going into full swing only a few were built and the remaining orders were canceled but those that had arrived in the war zone did see some action and bombing missions then continued in service over Japan during the occupation after the war ended. They also have the dubious distinction of suffering the last air to air combat fatality of WWII, a few days after the surrender a disgruntled Japanese pilot took off in a Mitsubishi Zero and attacked a B32 on patrol resulting in the death of one of the crew members. The next day MacArthur ordered all the propellers to be removed on all Japanese military aircraft, although technically not a combat death that crewman did indeed die in combat as a result of the war!


Just another note about the B32, all were scrapped after the war and not a single example of that aircraft remains today.

I love the old war birds and had never heard of the B-32, thanks for sharing that. I must do a little reading now.

I was so happy when I heard about Doc. I have always been fascinated by the strategic bombing operations over Europe during WWII. I got to fly in a B-17 a few years ago, one of the high points of my life I think. I can't wait to get a chance to see this B-29, I only live a couple of hours away.

Bad Water Bill
05-28-2016, 07:42 AM
An other proud memory.

My son (Hardware) and I had the privilege of meeting the co pilot of the Bockscar,#2 A bomb.

A young lady jumped up screaming "how can you sleep at night knowing YOU killed over 100,000 innocent people"?

lt Olivi calmly responded very well mam because I know more than you do about the war.

It was estimated that if we had to invade Japan we probably would have lost over 2 MILLION American soldiers and Japan would have lost about 20 MILLION folks defending their homeland.

Yes I sleep good knowing that what I did saved millions of lives.

Another true hero that flew a B29.

Ballistics in Scotland
05-28-2016, 09:42 AM
Just a little off topic but someone mentioned the hump.

Last year on veterans day I walked into a local gun shop.

Sitting there was an old man with a WW2 VETERANs cap on his head.

He is suffering with alzheimers said a relative so pay no attention to anything he says as he never did anything usefull in his life.

My dad died with the same problem so I know that these folks will remember very clearly what they did 50-70 years ago but are confused about the recent past.

I started by asking the old vet just what he did during the war.

"I drove a truck over the Burma hump many times and thank god for our fighter pilots that protected us he said".

To bad none of his family ever sat down and spent some time just talking with that real hero.

When the family member started to drive away with him I yelled HEY and threw my best salute to him.

With a BIG smile on his face he suddenly sat up very straight and returned my salute.

That is a memory I will never forget.

General Carton de Wiart suffered the loss of a hand and eye plus various other fairly extreme delapidations in the First World War, which he said he enjoyed vey much. Due to administrative oversight became a British general without ever having had any nationality but Belgian, and became head of the British military mission in Poland by accident, as he was living among the Masurian Lakes at the time. After commanding the invasion of Normandy he was considered too old to be given a combat division, so he ended up on staff and diplomatic missions. He became a prisoner of war in Italy, escaped and was on the run for several days before capture, since an extremely tall old man of Nordic appearance with one hand and an eyepatch was conspicuous. The Italians released him to negotiate a change of sides, and when that temporarily stalled, he insisted he had to go back, as he had promised to do. Later he found himself young enough to fly the Hump many times, as liaison officer to Chiang Kai-Shek. He probably got on better with Chiang and his wife on a personal level that Stilwell, but then he had been among people of other nationalities all his life.

Early in the war Barnes Wallis designed a six-engined bomber with a 172 foot wingspan, to bomb the Ruhr dams from a height of 40,000 feet, with the ten-ton bomb he had calculated as being necessary. The resemblance to the B29 is a classic example of designers being led in the same direction, as it would have been pressurized, with the same relatively short fuselage as the B29 and minimal defensive armament. Of course there was never much prospect of the resources and time being available, and he devised the lighter surface-bouncing cylindrical mine which rolled down the face of the dam. Improved Lancasters later carried a bomb of practically the same weight as Wallis had envisaged, but at much lower heights. I remember seeing Wallis on TV in the late 70s, showing his design for a swing-wing aircraft capable of hypersonic flight in the stratosphere. It wasn't bad for a man who worked on aircraft design in the First World War.

Ballistics in Scotland
05-28-2016, 09:53 AM
An other proud memory.

My son (Hardware) and I had the privilege of meeting the co pilot of the Bockscar,#2 A bomb.

A young lady jumped up screaming "how can you sleep at night knowing YOU killed over 100,000 innocent people"?

lt Olivi calmly responded very well mam because I know more than you do about the war.

It was estimated that if we had to invade Japan we probably would have lost over 2 MILLION American soldiers and Japan would have lost about 20 MILLION folks defending their homeland.

Yes I sleep good knowing that what I did saved millions of lives.

Another true hero that flew a B29.

Those estimates were made by people who knew what they wanted to prove, and they are something we can't really know about. Few people know that while Hirohito was probably guilty as sin when the war seemed winnable, his post-Hiroshima surrender order had to be smuggled past the military junta. It is quite possible that a surrender, obeyed with almost total unanimity, would have happened anyway. The Japanese are smart enough to know that you can't nuke guerillas.

The decision was taken not to bet on that and it is a hard one to argue against. But it was a terrible thing. The young lady picked on the wrong people, even if there were any right people, but her attitude was a very natural one, far superior to the unfortunate minority who get their rocks off thinking about it.

Ole Joe Clarke
05-28-2016, 11:21 AM
Fifi flew over our house a couple of years ago, on the way from Birmingham to Atlanta. I was aware that it was in Birmingham, but was unable to see it up close. I was outside when I heard a unusual noise in the sky, looked up and found the source. It was the B-29, slowly lumbering east at about 1,000 maybe 1,500 feet. I was able to verify the flight later, so I know it was Fifi.

God bless those Heroes that are still living, and God help us never to forget those that have gone on.

Leon

Mytmousemalibu
05-28-2016, 04:32 PM
Thank you for the correction..

Question.. The video of DOC says the engines are modern hybrids? What are those?

Well, not sure to be honest, they built quite a few different versions of the R-3350 so i'm guessing they have inter-mixed parts of different versions. For example, the original engines to the B-29 were direct fuel injected and each engine has 2 injection pumps. Each one costs $15,000 to rebuild and they were all shot from sitting so long on Doc's original engines. They might have just built the engines up with pressure carb's instead to save money, something to that effect might be what was referred to as hybrid. As it is, Doc doesn't need fuel injection for it's role today. The R-3350's were know for running hot and they had a bad habit of torching/breaking exhaust valves. The cooling airflow on the B-29 wasn't very good on the ground and low speed. I recall a crew talking about it regarding a mission, one of the pilots ask the flight engineer on take-off roll how the engine temps were because this was supposed to be kept careful tabs on. The flight engineer replied back, "You don't want to know sir!" They were overheating before they were wheels-off!

richhodg66
05-29-2016, 09:53 AM
Not wanting to get into an argument, but dropping the bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki was absolutely the right thing to do. Interesting piece on it right here;

https://www.facebook.com/prageru/videos/921073237935533/

oldred
05-29-2016, 12:59 PM
Not wanting to get into an argument, but dropping the bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki was absolutely the right thing to do. Interesting piece on it right here;

https://www.facebook.com/prageru/videos/921073237935533/


Absolutely and I can't understand why some people won't accept that! American servicemen, and others, were dying every single day that war dragged on and the Japs were making it plain they were going to do as they had everywhere else and make a last ditch stand! Some in the military, a lot actually, were willing to die fighting and to them if it meant surrender it was better to die with their twisted interpretation of honor and take as many of the enemy with them as possible. They had several last ditch weapons such as the rocket powered Kamikaze plane that would have wreaked destruction on the invading fleet, at least they were convinced it would and it no doubt would have caused considerable damage. They even remained steadfast after the first bomb fell because their scientists were convinced that was the only bomb America could have produced and it would be months before they would have another one, it wasn't until after the second one fell and it became apparent that they were sitting ducks were going to die without even getting a shot at the enemy that they finally relented.

Another thing the bleeding heart apologists seem to want to ignore is the conventional and firebombing of Japanese cities was killing and destroying as many and as much as those single bombs did, well over 100,000 died and nearly a million were injured in just one raid on Tokyo and had the Atomic bombs not brought them to their senses many more such raids would have followed. Yes a lot of Japanese died but they started that war and the American leaders had a responsibility to bring it to an end as quickly as possible and with as few allied causalities being top priority, sacrificing the lives of American servicemen for the Japanese was not something they were willing to do! The apologists completely ignore that dropping the bombs SAVED countless lives of both the allies and Japanese by quickly bringing the war to a close and those who will counter with the assertion that's not true because the Japanese were preparing to surrender anyway are totally ignoring history. The Japs were feverishly preparing for invasion and had NEVER ONCE surrendered without a fight and they were not going to start by giving up their homeland peacefully, that is not until they realized Japan was going to be totally destroyed without them even getting a chance to fight!

The bombs saved hundreds of thousands of people on both sides and the resulting destruction from each of them was no worse than the large bomber raids were already doing, it was the realization of the unimaginable destruction that was about to rain down upon them and the fact they were totally helpless against it that finally brought that terrible war to an end.

Ballistics in Scotland
05-30-2016, 07:29 AM
Japan had asked the Soviet Union, neutral in the Japanese war, to mediate in peace negotiations several weeks earlier. No doubt they meant something easier on them than surrender, but the Soviets appear to have preferred Japan to take what was coming to them. Japan' behavior on all those islands can just as easily be seen as an obsessive willingness to obey authority, and the possibility of an Imperial decree of surrender or armistice isn't to be dismissed. Nor is the possibility of a beaten but violently anti-American Japan's astonishing economic recovery in subsequent decades turning into an economic or even a real war.

People die to win wars, and extra people sometimes die to make the right kind of peace afterwards. Nobody can fairly call the atomic bombings the wrong decision, but it was or should have been a terribly hard one, made on the basis of factors unknown to anyone at the time, and even more unknown to many who now defend it. Much is now being made of Mr. Obama's supposed apology for the bombings. But what he did was express sympathy, which is different and extremely right and proper.

oldred
05-30-2016, 10:36 AM
Japan had asked the Soviet Union, neutral in the Japanese war, to mediate in peace negotiations several weeks earlier. No doubt they meant something easier on them than surrender,

Ah there it is again! Every time the discussion comes up it seems the apologists want to bring up the Japanese offer to *surrender*!

Go back and look at history, that so called *surrender* was hardly a surrender at all but rather it was simply an offer to halt the fighting ON THEIR TERMS!!! It would have called for them to pull back from MOST but not all of the areas they still occupied, it would have left their government intact, it DID NOT surrender their military nor call for disarmament, in short it was an offer to stop fighting with no repercussions for what they had done! The American stand had been from December 7 1941 that we would accept no less than an unconditional surrender of the Japanese Empire and our leaders owed the American people and indeed the entire world just that and no less!

As far as approaching the Soviet Union to act as a mediator, this is what they were discussing,

*It should be clearly made known to Russia that she owes her victory over Germany to Japan, since we remained neutral, and that it would be to the advantage of the Soviets to help Japan maintain her international position, since they have the United States as an enemy in the future*


They were trying to get the Russians to help them maintain a position of at least some power by pointing out to them that Japan could be a useful ally in the coming standoff with the U.S which was hardly a secret even then! They had amassed over 10,000 aircraft of various types for use as Kamikazes and heavily fortified the few beaches suitable for an invasion and every able bodied person in Japan had been armed with whatever weapons they could muster in preparation for the coming invasion. Even the newspapers were inciting patriotic spirit by taunting the allies with the slogan,

*The sooner the Americans come the better, one hundred million will die die proudly!*


No enemy had ever in history set foot upon Japanese soil and they were not about to give up without a fight so don't hand us that tired old *They were trying to surrender* BS because that's exactly what it is! The invasion was only a couple of months away and millions potentially would have died, had that happened because the decision was made NOT to drop the bomb the same apologists that smugly point fingers and accuse today would have been crying the loudest that millions had died needlessly because Trueman had the means to prevent it but didn't!!!!

Petrol & Powder
05-30-2016, 11:15 AM
That's awesome. I got to walk through a B-17 last year and then watch it take off and land. it was super cool and I'd take the opportunity to fly in a B-29 if the chance presented itself.

DougGuy
05-30-2016, 11:16 AM
That's awesome. I got to walk through a B-17 last year and then watch it take off and land. it was super cool and I'd take the opportunity to fly in a B-29 if the chance presented itself.

Better save a LOT of pennies and turn in a LOT of soda bottles!

Ballistics in Scotland
05-30-2016, 11:50 AM
Ah there it is again! Every time the discussion comes up it seems the apologists want to bring up the Japanese offer to *surrender*!

Go back and look at history, that so called *surrender* was hardly a surrender at all but rather it was simply an offer to halt the fighting ON THEIR TERMS!!! It would have called for them to pull back from MOST but not all of the areas they still occupied, it would have left their government intact, it DID NOT surrender their military nor call for disarmament, in short it was an offer to stop fighting with no repercussions for what they had done! The American stand had been from December 7 1941 that we would accept no less than an unconditional surrender of the Japanese Empire and our leaders owed the American people and indeed the entire world just that and no less!

As far as approaching the Soviet Union to act as a mediator, this is what they were discussing,

*It should be clearly made known to Russia that she owes her victory over Germany to Japan, since we remained neutral, and that it would be to the advantage of the Soviets to help Japan maintain her international position, since they have the United States as an enemy in the future*


They were trying to get the Russians to help them maintain a position of at least some power by pointing out to them that Japan could be a useful ally in the coming standoff with the U.S which was hardly a secret even then! They had amassed over 10,000 aircraft of various types for use as Kamikazes and heavily fortified the few beaches suitable for an invasion and every able bodied person in Japan had been armed with whatever weapons they could muster in preparation for the coming invasion. Even the newspapers were inciting patriotic spirit by taunting the allies with the slogan,

*The sooner the Americans come the better, one hundred million will die die proudly!*


No enemy had ever in history set foot upon Japanese soil and they were not about to give up without a fight so don't hand us that tired old *They were trying to surrender* BS because that's exactly what it is! The invasion was only a couple of months away and millions potentially would have died, had that happened because the decision was made NOT to drop the bomb the same apologists that smugly point fingers and accuse today would have been crying the loudest that millions had died needlessly because Trueman had the means to prevent it but didn't!!!!

All that sounds pretty much like the first stages in buying a used car. Of course they didn't call it unconditional surrender, any more than America thought it judicious to do in Iraq in 1991. But there were deep divisions within the Japanese regime. Even after the bombings, which some in the military junta saw as no worse than a couple of fire-bombings, the Imperial surrender order had to be smuggled out for publication, amid fears that it would be stopped by the sort of assassinations that were commonplace in the 30s.

It is now quite hard to find the Japanese wartime government statement on the death of President Roosevelt, expressing regret for the death of such a great man, who had done so much for America. Nobody really knew which way Japan would act. There were just the same orders and preparations for last-ditch civilian mobilization in Germany, but of course Germans and their army didn't, and atomic bombing, which was within three months of being feasible, was just one among many things which didn't happen in Europe.

Nobody knows whether the Japanese would have surrendered with no atomic bombings, or just one, or the bombing of a low-population but readily visible area. Even delaying it until meeting serious resistance on one more set of beaches was a possibility to consider. Any of these might have been considered a worse bet than what was actually done, but that is a lot worse from arguing that they were certain to fail. There is a lot in the argument that the key factor was the impression to be made on the Russians.

Bad Water Bill
05-30-2016, 12:26 PM
If we had not dropped those bombs many of my neighbors would have had to take down the flag in their window with the BLUE star on it and sadly hung up one with a GOLD star on it.

oldred
05-30-2016, 12:51 PM
No one is arguing that anything was certain to fail, what is certain is that delaying the decision of dropping the bomb or not dropping at all would have been trading allied lives for Japanese and that's something the U.S. Government was not willing to do nor should they have! Spin it any way you like but not using those bombs when they did would have resulted in MANY more deaths on both sides, not fewer, because despite what some will argue the Japanese were making no real overtures towards peace, just the opposite in fact. The apologists as always try to spin or outright change history, such as taking Japan's attempt to make a pact with the Russians and spin that into an acceptable surrender offer!

The Japanese strategy had been, since they were forced into retreat, to bring about peace on their terms by making the war so costly in American lives that the public would not have the stomach for it and would pressure the Government to accept Japanese terms and indeed there were movements in this country to do just that and the Japs were well aware of it! After the disaster of Iwo Jima, heroic as it was the losses were disastrous, and the huge number of causalities incurred in the taking of Okinawa there was a LOT of sentiment growing within the American public to come to some sort of quick agreement with the Japanese even if it meant less than a total and unconditional surrender. While there was little chance the peace movement would have brought about acceptance on Japanese terms the Japs were encouraged that their strategy was working, they WERE NOT ABOUT TO SURRENDER!!!!! They knew at that point that they had surely lost the war but remained convinced they still stood a good chance to negotiate at least some concessions from the Americans who, in the Japanese minds, would be unwilling to accept such staggering losses and there is absolutely NO doubt they were going to try. It wasn't until the bombs fell and they finally realized that they were going to suffer total annihilation without even having the chance to apply that strategy that they eventually capitulated and surrendered unconditionally. Had those bombs not been dropped that would NOT have happened, they would have tried just as they had all along to gain concessions through attrition and interrogations of former officials along with captured documents bear this out! Again you can spin it any way you like and twist history until it breaks but those two bombs shortened the war by months and saved lives on both sides, absolutely it was the right thing to do!

fjruple
05-30-2016, 03:09 PM
Just a quick technical question on this B-29, I notice that this B-29 had none of the automated gun turrets that many of the other B-29 block numbers had, except for the B-29s built in the same block as Bock's Car and the Enola Gay. Was this B-29 in that same block or was the removal of the gun turrets a post-war modification?

-fjruple

Ballistics in Scotland
05-30-2016, 04:17 PM
Just a quick technical question on this B-29, I notice that this B-29 had none of the automated gun turrets that many of the other B-29 block numbers had, except for the B-29s built in the same block as Bock's Car and the Enola Gay. Was this B-29 in that same block or was the removal of the gun turrets a post-war modification?

-fjruple

Curtis le May had most of the defensive armament removed in wartime, to permit loading more bombs and fuel. It meant fewer bombing missions for a given weight of bombs, and by that time fighter opposition at high altitude was less than had been expected. Several .50 Browning with ammunition, remote sighting equipment and analog computers must have been a weight worth saving. Some B29s came from the factory with only a radar controlled tail turret, but I don't know if that was in wartime, or if they saw action. The British experience with the unarmed Mosquito contributed to the decision that the twin jet Canberra needn't be armed, and the B29 was both higher and much faster than other heavy bombers. With fighters just like submarines, it takes speed to make sure of a contact.