Pennies From Heaven

[reed714]

To help offset the high price of swaging .45 ACP, .44 Magnum and .357 cups I am toying with the idea of making a hydraulically operated punch and die to form copper or zinc swaging cups out of pennies. Have you ever heard of this being done? I have never designed a forming punch and die but I think that if I took an old 7/8 X 14 die and machined the correct diameter hole through it and made a conical opening at the bottom of the die a little less than the diameter of a penny it ought to work. The punch would have slightly rounded edges and be the diameter of the desired bullet minus twice the thickness of a penny. I would leave the top of the die open so the finished cups would exit the top. Any ideas that would help will be appreciated.

Reed Dickinson

[rbt50]

i believe it is illegal ,

[RANGER RICK]

I have thought about it all the time since I am tired of paying about $50.00 plus for a box of .500 Dia gas checks .
I thought Aabout a penny machine that flattens pennies and puts a design on them but get one that just flattens them out and then press them one at a time to get the desired form but all that is way out of my league !!!!

Go for it and if it works just do not broadcast it !!!!

RR

[LeadThrower]

Isn't it ironic that the Fed can print money on a whim, destroying the value of the cash you have in your wallet, and yet you can't use a penny to create something worth more than a cent?

In other news: "modern" pennies have a super-thin copper shell over a zinc core. Etch a penny with a scribe and drop it into muriatic acid (HCl) and you'll dissolve the zinc and leave behind the shell. It's amazing how little Cu is actually in a penny these days.

[rockrat]

It might be legal, as I do not believe that a penny is considered "legal tender". I heard, long ago , that it starts with the dime. Some lawyer here might know for sure, but IIRC, that is what I have heard.

[MT Gianni]

It is illegal AFAIK to deface US currency in the USA. It is also Illegal to deface Canadian Currency in Canada. I do not think the US or Canada cares about what we do to each others money. Get a couple of rolls of Canadian pennies and go for it. Swap with another board member from Canada and let us know if it works. Gianni

[chrisx1]

If it is illegal, what about those machines at the zoo and at the carnival that my kids put a penny and 2 quarters in and the penny comes out with a design of a lion or something on it??? How do those machines get away with it?

[Red River Rick]

I do not think the US or Canada cares about what we do to each others money. Get a couple of rolls of Canadian pennies and go for it. Swap with another board member from Canada and let us know if it works. Gianni

That idea would work great, only problem is our governments are so cheap that the pennies aren't even made out of pure copper anymore. Costs would certainly be cheap, $10 per M. Nowadays, they are blanked from some el-cheapo material and then plated. No wonder nobody even bothers to stop and pick them up.

And if someone was to make gaschecks out of pennies, whose going to know, you'll never see the pennies traveling at twice the speed of sound.

RRR

[Hackleback]

And there is talk of US pennies being made of copper washed steel in the near future

[bohica2xo]

It is not illegal to smash pennies, but it is illegal to attempt to spend defaced currency. Plenty of artists cut up & use coins without being prosecuted.

But why? Onther members here have proven an annealed 40S&W case makes a good .429 jacket. It has all of the attributes of a good jacket - tapered walls, solid base, etc.

I have been drawing down 9mm & 380 brass into .357 jackets with good results too. In a half hour I picked up 23 pounds of 380/9mm/40 brass at my local range to convert to jackets...

B.

[Rustyleee]

I heard the other day on the news that they're going to start making nickles out of steel. I drill holes in pennies all the time to make my own washers. It's cheaper than going to the store and buying the washer.

[only1asterisk]

http://assembler.law.cornell.edu/uscode/search/display.html?terms=defaces&url=/uscode/html/uscode18/usc_sec_18_00000331----000-.html

United States Code
TITLE 18
PART I
CHAPTER 17
§ 331. Mutilation, diminution, and falsification of coins

“Whoever fraudulently alters, defaces, mutilates, impairs, diminishes,
falsifies, scales, or lightens any of the coins coined at the mints of
the United States, or any foreign coins which are by law made current
or are in actual use or circulation as money within the United States;
or whoever fraudulently possesses, passes, utters, publishes, or
sells, or attempts to pass, utter, publish, or sell, or brings into
the United States, any such coin, knowing the same to be altered,
defaced, mutilated, impaired, diminished, falsified, scaled, or
lightened— Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than
five years, or both.”

[bohica2xo]

http://assembler.law.cornell.edu/uscode/search/display.html?terms=defaces&url=/uscode/html/uscode18/usc_sec_18_00000331----000-.html

United States Code
TITLE 18
PART I
CHAPTER 17
§ 331. Mutilation, diminution, and falsification of coins

“Whoever fraudulently alters,”


Exactly. There is no fraud in using coins for art or washers. Trying to SPEND a coin with a hole in it constuites FRAUD. You have devalued the coin based on it's weight - which at the time that law was written was tied to it's value.

I know someone that got jacked up a couple of decades ago when the peso tanked. He was buying mexican coins for scrap metal at face value, and smelting them. He never lied or defrauded the people he purchased the coins from, and the US govt asked him to quit. They sure as hell would have prosecuted him for it if they could. I saw a truckload of centavos turned into ingots...

B.

[only1asterisk]

bohica2xo,

I agree with you. I think most people would. I will caution folks that just because you have observed the meaning and intent of a law doesn't mean you are safe from prosecution.

I know American pennies are zinc. Any numismatist out there that knows of a more suitable coin?

David

[Scrounger]

I don't know anything about them but how about a foreign coin, Mexican or Canadian, or even Chinese for that matter? There must be something we can buy for less than 1¢. No legal issues that way either.

[pjh421]

I've begun using Krugerands since my Dubloons are all in the berm. Heck, you can't take it with you.

Paul

[Caveape]

Hey bohica2xo!
Tell me about your jackets-from-brass adventures. I've only done it with 22 hulls. Or, where would I go to get detailed info on doing that. I have a set of .357 swage dies and am running out of my supply of commercial jackets. I'm not wanting to buy jackets at retail anymore.

Why buy anything at retail for that matter?

[sav300]

Ha,I have a supply of Aussie 1 and 2 cents coins and are all cupro nickel.Any good?
Cannot use them to buy BUT are legal tender????

[RP]

can you tell it was a penny after you are done with it ???

[Salmon-boy]

The folks who are over at the Castinghobby anyhoo group went up and down and all around this issue a while ago.

In a nutshell, smashing or defacing a penny is legal because it's not considered legal tender - Anyone can refuse payment in pennies. Hence the souvenir rolling machines. One law has been added recently though - if you intend to make profit by scrapping any tender (i.e. sell pre-1982 pennies for scrap copper value) that will land you in a boatload of trouble with the fed. Of course there's always the above mentioned fraud which was primarily intended to dissuade bill-bleaching.

Swaging pennies should not be a legal issue, although I would think the zinc content would make them less malleable and prone to cracking. Give it a shot, you might be on to something!

[Maximilian225]

As to the pennies with copper in them, this is straight from the US Mint website.


Following is a brief chronology of the metal composition of the cent coin (penny):

* The composition was pure copper from 1793 to 1837.
* From 1837 to 1857, the cent was made of bronze (95 percent copper, and five percent tin and zinc).
* From 1857, the cent was 88 percent copper and 12 percent nickel, giving the coin a whitish appearance.
* The cent was again bronze (95 percent copper, and five percent tin and zinc) from 1864 to 1962.
(Note: In 1943, the coin's composition was changed to zinc-coated steel. This change was only for the year 1943 and was due to the critical use of copper for the war effort. However, a limited number of copper pennies were minted that year. You can read more about the rare, collectible 1943 copper penny in "What's So Special about the 1943 Copper Penny.")
* In 1962, the cent's tin content, which was quite small, was removed. That made the metal composition of the cent 95 percent copper and 5 percent zinc.
* The alloy remained 95 percent copper and 5 percent zinc until 1982, when the composition was changed to 97.5 percent zinc and 2.5 percent copper (copper-plated zinc). Cents of both compositions appeared in that year.



I have quite a hoard of the pre-82 pennies.

[Tom W.]

You can do what you want to with a coin, as long as you don't try to defraud anyone with the finished product. People have been known to take a quarter and put it on a lathe to hollow out one side, and glue another quarter inside of the first and sell them as novelties as two headed coins.

[Reloader06]

To add to Maximilian225's info, pennies from 1944 thru I believe 1947 were made with recycled cartridge brass.

Matt

[testhop]

i dont know about the fasabibtyof this what about copper water pipethe 1/2 inch i know it would be a bear to open uo and flated out but it should be less costly than pennys
and a lot more legal get the thin wall pipe for this also yoiu might check out 3/4 or 1 inch
this may be a dumb idea i dont know it may be ,more trouble than it is worth

[Bill*]

Tom W. has it exactly right. I collected/bought/sold rare coins for years. You can do what you like as long as there is no intent to defraud. In fact, you can also buy sheets of 32 uncut notes fron the bureau of engraving and printing and cut them incorrectly and sell as novelties....Yet it WOULD be illegal to claim them as BEP produced errors...thus defrauding. Here's one.......Bill :mrgreen:
BTW...yeah, you want the pre 1982 pennies if you want copper

And, as I Know SOMEONE'S gonna ask....in the mid 80's it was about 42 bucks for 32 singles,near twice that for the 2 dollar bills, and they dont sell any larger notes.the extra covers the mailing tube,postage, handling,etc.

[trickg]

To add to Maximilian225's info, pennies from 1944 thru I believe 1947 were made with recycled cartridge brass.

Matt
So are you saying that those pennies are brass rather than copper, or were they made from a combination of the two?

Regarding the debate that seems to be raging whether it's legal to deface a penny due to it's status as currency, if it was illegal, then there wouldn't be so many of those souvenier penny smashing machines at every tourist trap across the nation.

But back to the original subject, isn't it possible to buy inexpenive copper in various forms? Wouldn't that be preferable to trying to figure out a way to make gas checks from mashed pennies?

[Reloader06]

Trickg
My coin collecting books are packed away now, but IIRC the were all brass. Maybe someone else who's in to coin collecting could find the full skinny

Matt

[trickg]

Trickg
My coin collecting books are packed away now, but IIRC the were all brass. Maybe someone else who's in to coin collecting could find the full skinny

Matt
A quote from the website of the US Mint:

"On January 1, 1944, the Mint was able to adopt a modified alloy, the supply being derived from expended shell casing which when melted furnished a composition similar to the original, but with a faint trace of tin. The original weight of 48 grains was also restored."

The original composition was 95/5 copper/zinc, so I'm not sure how to interpret that because to my knowledge, shell casings were not made of copper, but rather brass, although there are countless alloys of brass and all include copper.

[mike in co]

It is illegal AFAIK to deface US currency in the USA. It is also Illegal to deface Canadian Currency in Canada. I do not think the US or Canada cares about what we do to each others money. Get a couple of rolls of Canadian pennies and go for it. Swap with another board member from Canada and let us know if it works. Gianni


some of you guys otta go read the code of fed regulations......
there is, on the books, wording to the effect, that it is illegal to deface us currency WITH THE INTENT OF TAKING IT OUT OF CIRCULATION.
so , if the penny is considered us currency,( it is not, it is a coin of convience, as mentioned earlier, us currency starts with the dime.....note the serated edges on the dime and up, smooth on the nickle and penny), then the plan would be not legal, but as it is not us currency, then maybe legal......

political groups often ink stamp thier cause on US paper money....IT IS NOT ILLEGAL, because thier intend is to circulate( thier message) on the currency, not remove it from circulation.

mike in co

[Spector]

I have been saving all the pennies I find in my change from 1962 through 1981 for awhile now. 95% copper/5% zinc. I just weighed them and I have 3.5 pounds so far. May be a waste of time, but I think I'll continue doing it just in case............Mike

[Reloader06]

Spector
I doubt you're wasting your time. I've heard that the mint is going to change the penny in 2009.

Matt

[Linstrum]

As was already mentioned a few times above, the United States 1962 to pre-1982 cent is a brass alloy composed of 95% copper and 5% zinc. The 1982 and onward cents are zinc with a copper wash on them with a few 1982 cents being of either brass or copper washed zinc. They can be easily told apart by weighing them since copper is much heavier than zinc.

Zinc by itself is a poor metal for cold working and drawing into anything, including bullet jackets. If zinc was any good we would already have it as bullet jackets since it is cheap. Where zinc really shines is for die casting and as an alloying agent to harden and toughen copper and many other non-ferrous metals. Brass is copper with a small percentage of zinc. Bronze is copper with a small percentage of tin and often other metals as well. Brass alloys are often incorrectly referred to as bronze.

Right after the United States cent coin alloy was changed in 1982 I started collecting pre-1982 cents with the intent of using them as jacket and primer cup material. At the time I thought that the gun grabbers were going to finally get us by denying us ammo by taxing it out of existence, and I was storing up the raw materials to make my own ammo components myself. I had already designed the punch dies for making my own primer cups the same way that some of us are also making our own gas checks. One of the many ways of guaranteeing firearms freedom is through private and secret ownership of the means for making ammunition components and assembling them plus owning lathes and milling machines since with that equipment the private individual is in control of making the components and machinery needed for manufacturing essential components. I am surprised at the number of us shooters who are not familiar with the way the separate components are made that when assembled together become ammunition. We have the boolit making part of ammo perfected to a "T" but when it comes to gas checks, cartridge cases, and primer cups most of us just don't have any of that know-how. I know there is no apparent reason right now to know how to make that stuff since we can still buy it, but twice in the last 17 years we have not been able to get primers! Cars can't run without spark plugs and guns don't work without primers! During World War 2 my father was also not able to get primers, yet he reloaded his ammo anyway by taking the used primers apart and flattening the firing pin dent out and straightening up the anvil to repair them. Then he took the white tip off of strike anywhere matches and carefully filled up the primer cup and re-inserted the anvil. Sure, he had misfires but he and his uncle still put a lot of Wasatch Mountain (Utah) venison on the table.

I was a Boy Scout fifty years ago and our motto was "Be Prepared". So save your pre-1982 cents because they are getting REAL scarce. Even if you don't know how or can't make your own gas check and primer cup die sets, jacket drawing dies, cartridges, etc, you might know somebody who can and since a few thousand cents is ten or twenty bucks and takes up very little room, start saving them up! You've got nothing to lose and they will always be worth more than what you got them for.


rl357

[Bill*]

Mike in Co.-- Actually, the reeding was intended to prevent "shaving" of the rim way back in the good old days when our coins were made of precious metal- i.e. silver and gold, and were worth their weight in that metal. Doesn't have any bearing on legal tender status, just wasn't needed for nickel or copper as it didn't pay to shave some off of those coins. It simply remained as tradition. As far as the wartime composition, Yeoman's handbook of U.S. coins says- 1909-1942 bronze,1943 zinc coated steel,1944 to 1981 bronze resumed. maybe the different look to some 1944-46 war/post war coins is I expect they were using whatever they could get their hands on (including cartridge cases). Bill