Warning not to use E15 in your car

[trapper9260]

https://www.youtube.com/embed/ceW9Nc1hVHU?feature=player_detailpage

[duckey]

Not good for any/most engines.

[Freightman]

That is the Government for you and "GREEN" they don't care

[reddog81]

I won't use E15 because the energy content difference of ethanol.
However that video has some misleading statements. Phase separation isn't going to happen unless you leave the vehicle sit out in the freezing elements all winter and even then it probably won't be a problem.
All fuel is delivered in the same stainless steel tank wagons.
The EPA has certified cars 2002 and newer for E15. Some manufacturers are saying 2012 but I'm guessing that is nothing more than a CYA.
EPA has been testing E15 for least half a decade not a month.
I find it amusing they claim to be debunking myths when in actuality they are just spouting off myths. if you're going to critize a product do it based on facts.

[243winxb]

The test fluids selected for this investigation were Fuel C, CE10a, CE17a, and CE25a. Fuel C was selected as the control since it is representative of premium gasoline and is a standard test fluid widely used for studying material compatibility to gasoline. CE10a represents an aggressive formulation of E10, and as such, it can be viewed as a baseline test fuel since E10 is currently available in many, if not most, fuel dispensers. Dawn dish detergent contains as much as 5% Ethanol. Ethanol may cause stress crossion cracking. http://i338.photobucket.com/albums/n420/joe1944usa/FirearmsReloading102/ethanolampcartridgebrass.jpg http://s338.photobucket.com/user/joe1944usa/media/FirearmsReloading102/ethanolampcartridgebrass.jpg.html

[Handloader109]

I don't even like 10%... Corn should be eaten not made into a crappy fuel

[dkf]

I won't use E15 because the energy content difference of ethanol.
However that video has some misleading statements. Phase separation isn't going to happen unless you leave the vehicle sit out in the freezing elements all winter and even then it probably won't be a problem.
All fuel is delivered in the same stainless steel tank wagons.
The EPA has certified cars 2002 and newer for E15. Some manufacturers are saying 2012 but I'm guessing that is nothing more than a CYA.
EPA has been testing E15 for least half a decade not a month.
I find it amusing they claim to be debunking myths when in actuality they are just spouting off myths. if you're going to critize a product do it based on facts.

The EPA knows nothing about the cars they are saying can use E15. Fact is most cars that old are not programmed to run a rich enough A/F ratio for E15. Most are running the ragged edge of stoich for E10, putting in E15 only leans them out worse. If the MANUFACTURER is saying 2012+ for E15 then it would be a good idea to listen to them as they know what A/F ratio they are programming their vehicles for. Not all 2012+ vehicles are Flex Fuel either. But what does the EPA care, they don't have to pay the repair bills, deal with the detonation, worse mpg, etc. The EPA don't know their **** from a hole in the ground and their recommendations prove it.

All you need for some phase seperation with an ethanol blend gas is some water. Condensation from temperature changes can even be enough. Of course that water ethanol mix settles right to bottom of the tank to be picked up by your fuel pump.

[jonp]

E15 works fine in my 2004 F150. Runs fine with no pinging, hard starting, loss of mileage or power etc. It sets off the engine light in my wives 2012 fiat 500. I use Lucas Ethanol Additive just in case and the price differential saves me money. E15 is running almost $.50/gal cheaper than regular unleaded.

[HangFireW8]

The EPA knows nothing about the cars they are saying can use E15. Fact is most cars that old are not programmed to run a rich enough A/F ratio for E15. Most are running the ragged edge of stoich for E10, putting in E15 only leans them out worse. If the MANUFACTURER is saying 2012+ for E15 then it would be a good idea to listen to them as they know what A/F ratio they are programming their vehicles for. Not all 2012+ vehicles are Flex Fuel either. But what does the EPA care, they don't have to pay the repair bills, deal with the detonation, worse mpg, etc. The EPA don't know their **** from a hole in the ground and their recommendations prove it.

All you need for some phase seperation with an ethanol blend gas is some water. Condensation from temperature changes can even be enough. Of course that water ethanol mix settles right to bottom of the tank to be picked up by your fuel pump.

I'm no fan of E15, but you should acquaint yourself with the episode of mythbusters where they run a new Camaro on 100% Ethanol, as well as an old carb Camaro.

When I was using my pickup once or twice a month, I had terrible hard starting, low power, bucking, and stalling during the first couple minutes of running. Switching to e-free fixed it immediately. Switching back brought the problem back. Now I use it more often, and I can use E10 again without problems, because it gets refilled more often.

[dkf]

Mythbusters also ran a carbed vehicle off hydrogen they made, doesn't mean squat. Just because an engine runs on something doesn't mean it will run for long, A/F ratio is right, it is making adequate power, etc. A wideband O2 in the tailpipe underload throughout the rpm range will tell the tale. A lot of the Flex Fuel vehicles have sensors that monitor ethanol content in the tank and can make changes on the fly within a certain range. Most other vehicles can't do that. Fact is ethanol stoich is 9:1, pure gas is 14.7:1, so you need approx 61% more ethanol than gasoline just to run stoich. That is not factoring in any fuel enrichment like at WOT or under heavy loads. Most newer non flex fuel vehicles run 14.2:1 to help compensate for 10% ethanol.

Also keep in mind just because the pump says "E10" doesn't mean you are getting 10% ethanol, it varies. Part of the reason why I need to do tune revisions every now and then for my truck. It is more critical when towing.(increased engine load)

[runfiverun]

forget to take it off economy and tow with it and you get to pick a new engine package..
I go out of my way to run E-nothing in most of my stuff.
I get much better results from my vehicles especially the Mustang that sits all winter in storage,
it absolutely hates ethanol in any form.

[HangFireW8]

Mythbusters also ran a carbed vehicle off hydrogen they made, doesn't mean squat. Just because an engine runs on something doesn't mean it will run for long, A/F ratio is right, it is making adequate power, etc. A wideband O2 in the tailpipe underload throughout the rpm range will tell the tale. A lot of the Flex Fuel vehicles have sensors that monitor ethanol content in the tank and can make changes on the fly within a certain range. Most other vehicles can't do that. Fact is ethanol stoich is 9:1, pure gas is 14.7:1, so you need approx 61% more ethanol than gasoline just to run stoich. That is not factoring in any fuel enrichment like at WOT or under heavy loads. Most newer non flex fuel vehicles run 14.2:1 to help compensate for 10% ethanol.

Also keep in mind just because the pump says "E10" doesn't mean you are getting 10% ethanol, it varies. Part of the reason why I need to do tune revisions every now and then for my truck. It is more critical when towing.(increased engine load)

So I see you didn't look into the episode. The Camaro had better race track lap times with the Ethanol, but they attributed that to better driver familiarity. The fact is, many modern cars do have the ability to run on E15 or even E100.

The rest of the stuff you said, I already know, and have been saying on other forums.

[6bg6ga]

Simple fact....if your car is rated for E85 you can use E10,E15, or E30 without a problem. Personally, I have used anything in the E10, or E15 field available in my corn state of Iowa. My results were I have had no problems. No problems experienced period in my company provided 2008 Ford E250. For you back yard mechanics.... your computer should and in most cases will adjust AF ratios to compensate for the alcohol in the fuel. Mine particular van states it will burn E10 or E15 but not E85. Have not seen any E30 in my state yet in my travels. I take this poorly investigated report as such. Little actual facts to back up their claims. I will continue to use E10 and E15 without any fear in the 2008 Ford van I drive. I will not however use any E15 in the 2004 Envoy or SRX we own.

[6bg6ga]

Another note.... had used E10 in my company provide vehicle I had before the 2008 and it was a 2000 Ford E250. Being in Iowa its hard not to get E10 because its more readily available and the boss doesn't want to spend around .20 more a gallon for non alcohol gas. Anyway it got E10 all its life with no problems and it went 286K before being retired because I was loosing tools thru the holes in the floor. No fuel line problems, no injector problems and to be factual the only work ever done to the engine was a thermostat and two ignition coils. The ignition coils were fried because of the moisture dripping off the AC lines onto the coil packs.

[Ken in Iowa]

Another Iowan here. We've been dealing with ethanol since the 1970s. Fortunately, we can easily get a variety of fuels here in my town including BP Ultimate 93? Octane, E10 in 87 and 89 octane, 87 octane regular and E85.

We've had good success over the years with E10 in most cars. The notable exception was a '78 440 ci Dodge Polara which hated ethanol, tolerated regular and loved Ultimate.

I think the answer here is quite simple. Read the owners manual and use the minimum recommended fuel or better .

[Storydude]

My 1980 302 seems to run just fine on E10. It's called Jetting. 9.75-1 compression, edelbrock intake and carb, stage 2 RV edelbrock cam.

Oh and if you lived in the Midwest in the 70's, your car has been eating Ethanol since then.

Remember Gasahol?

Ethanol is nothing new to be added to fuel.

[AK Caster]

As far as running ethanol. Most don't know but the octane is about 99 where as "high test" gas usually maxes out at 93.
I know some guys who drive Corvettes who run nothing but ethanol and they picked up between 25 and 30 HP according to the dyno runs. One of the guys has been using it for 2 years. The negative is they loose miles per tank.
BUT, this also required a custom tune on their cars which now means they can not run anything but ethanol unless they retune the car back.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

I've never been a fan of ethanol blends (especially mandated and subsidized)....So this is no sales pitch.

About a decade ago, during one of the periods when OIL(and gas) was at record high prices. Minnesota had manditory E07 at the time, and many gas stations offered E85 at a great discount, due to State subsidies. I was driving a 1988 Honda Civic CRX coupe (2 seater), which had about 250K miles on it. So, I took a gamble at started using a half E07 and half E85 at every tank full. With normal driving I noticed no disadvantages (same MPG). So I continued... and no problems or part failures. I probably did that for about 5000 miles, til I sold the car...I still see it around town.

[Walkingwolf]

I drove a patrol car(Dodge) on pure ethanol in the early 80's. It was part of a university research project. The Carburetor had been replaced, as well as many hoses. The car outright absolutely screamed, easily burying the needle on the speedometer which was 140mph.

But the car was modified for ethanol only, no gasoline.

[jmort]

^^^ Yes

One advantage shared by the four major alcohol fuels is their high octane rating (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Octane_rating). This tends to increase their fuel efficiency and largely offsets the lower energy density of vehicular alcohol fuels (as compared to petrol/gasoline and diesel fuels), thus resulting in comparable "fuel economy" in terms of distance per volume metrics, such as kilometers per liter, or miles per gallon...
As a fuel, methanol and ethanol both have advantages and disadvantages over fuels such as petrol (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petrol) (gasoline) and diesel fuel (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diesel_fuel). In spark ignition engines, both alcohols can run at a much higher exhaust gas recirculation (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exhaust_gas_recirculation) rates and with higher compression ratios (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compression_ratio). Both alcohols have a high octane rating (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Octane_rating), with ethanol at 109 RON (Research Octane Number (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Research_Octane_Number)), 90 MON (Motor Octane Number (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motor_Octane_Number)), (which equates to 99.5AKI (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Knock_Index)) and methanol at 109 RON, 89 MON (which equates to 99 AKI).[2] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcohol_fuel#cite_note-2) Note that AKI refers to 'Anti-Knock Index (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Knock_Index)' which averages the RON and MON ratings (RON+MON)/2, and is used on U.S. gas station pumps. Ordinary European petrol is typically 95 RON, 85 MON, equal to 90 AKI. As a compression ignition engine fuel, both alcohols create very little particulates, but their low cetane number means that an ignition improver like glycol must be mixed into the fuel with approx. 5%.

[MarkP]

Living in Nebraska it is hard to find fuel without ethanol, I have been using E10 for 30+ yrs with no issues. Many vehicles were driven until they had over 200k. My 51 Pontiac was difficult to start when the engine was hot as it would vapor lock. That is the only issue I had that I am aware of.

We had a 95 Olds Aurora that had a recall due to fuel rail leakage; it was replaced with a newer SS design. IIRC it had synthetic tubes that could leak over time. At the time of the recall the car had well over 100k was 7-8 yrs old with no issues. Up until a few years ago I would still see that car driving around, sold it to a family in the neighborhood it had to have 250k and 17 to 18 years old.

[victorfox]

we don't have pure gas in my country since the 1970s (blue gas what they callee it). now it's E30 (28%) only and all vehicles come rated flex fuel. Petrobras sells the worst and most expensive fuel in planet to subdize the communist corruption that you may or not be aware of....

[2wheelDuke]

Ethanol should be in my glass, not my fuel tank. At least with the current setup of my things.

I've dealt with far too much damage on small engines like lawn equipment and small motorcycles as a result of ethanol in fuel. E15 would be a disaster for most motorcycles and boat engines. They just weren't designed for it. Some even have fiberglass fuel tanks, which get dissolved by ethanol.

I'm working marine patrol now, so I'm stationed at the city marina. They do pretty good business selling ethanol free 90 octane marine fuel. People are stuck paying nearly $1.50 a gallon extra to not have a fuel that'll destroy tanks, lines, floats, etc.

[6bg6ga]

Ethanol should be in my glass, not my fuel tank. At least with the current setup of my things.I've dealt with far too much damage on small engines like lawn equipment and small motorcycles as a result of ethanol in fuel. E15 would be a disaster for most motorcycles and boat engines. They just weren't designed for it. Some even have fiberglass fuel tanks, which get dissolved by ethanol. I'm working marine patrol now, so I'm stationed at the city marina. They do pretty good business selling ethanol free 90 octane marine fuel. People are stuck paying nearly $1.50 a gallon extra to not have a fuel that'll destroy tanks, lines, floats, etc.I don't see where small engines and motorcycles come into play here as the tread says in your car. Note... my Toro lawn mower manual states not to use ethanol based fuels and for that matter so did my 235Hp Johnson V6 outboard back when gasohol first came out. Common sense needs to come into play here somewhere.

[starmac]

Common sense tells me that gasoline is for autos, boats, and small engines, corn is for food, human or livestock. That is if we actually want to talk common sense.

[victorfox]

it's this green dictatorship... fossil fuel booboo... lead free ammo booboo. no hunting booboo... we had an alcohol program here in the 1970/80s during the oil crisis but now everything here is flex or alcohol compatible. even small honda/yamaha motorcycles. my car is rated flex see if it runs decently with alcohol?

[Minerat]

It's hard to find anything but E gas in Colorado. I have to chase all over town just to find boat gas that has no ethnol. I'd never buy the st... if I had a choice.

[reddog81]

The renewable fuel standard was enacted in 2005... Who was president then?

[bdicki]

I use this in my boat and bike.
https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/shopping?q=tbn:ANd9GcRmqCkTkZgbZdptImW47vRcLPdS5BJ brotPQ7yt32A0NGI0SWrAkj1Z-ZvAAZgOqAY1VZKZnihj&usqp=CAE

[6bg6ga]

Simple fact is that it will certainly work in the newer engines and I'll just throw a date of 2000 for grins. It is not designed for small engines, lawn mower engines, chain saws, or boat engines. Simple rule of thumb is if it has a carb don't use it. Any engine with a carb needs to be fed a diet of straight gas. Anything with injectors will work fine with E10, E15. The NEWER engines slated for E85 will not have problems with it.

[firefly1957]

In the late 70's they made gasohol available at the pump it was 15% ethanol with leaded gas My 1978 Ramcharger (Carb) would run on it but hesitation would increase noticeably and mileage dropped. The only run in I personally have had recently with 15% alcohol in fuel was in my 2000 E-350 chassis motor home (fuel injected V-10)i put some in by accident mileage dropped from 10.5 MPG on 10% ethanol to 7.5 MPG . A gas station got here in Michigan got a bad delivery of fuel some years ago and it was 15% ethanol a number of late 1990 model cars had the fuel pump impellers break as the plastic softened. Any carburetor engine can use Alcohol buy the jets must be changed to adjust the fuel air mixture and possible the fuel pump and fuel lines if alcohol softens them.

[Paper Puncher]

The problem with alcohol is usually not the engine itself but the ancillary components the alcohol attacks. I have seen carburetor floats and gaskets partially dissolved, hoses destroyed. Diaphragms on fuel pumps especially older lawn equipment ruined. Lots of carb kits being sold for lawn equipment and boats now. Not a fan of it by any means, unless it's in a Indy car.

[Mk42gunner]

There is one convenience store here in town that sells ethanol free gas. I started buying it for my new lawnmower and then tried a tank in my 2006 F150. So far the mileage in the truck picked up enough to more than offset the increased cost of the fuel. I will run a few more tanks through it to make sure, but the results agree with the mileage loss I saw in the 95 F150 I was driving when E10 was mandated here in Missouri.

On a side note, about ten years ago when I was going to college, one station in the town my classes were had E85. I tried it in my 77 F250. One tank would run very well, the next tank would run like caca. This continued for a while and I came to the conclusion it depended on how much moisture was absorbed by the alcohol. Less water in the fuel, the truck ran good. More water in the fuel and the truck ran bad.

Unfortunately, there was no way to tell what version you were getting from the pump.

Robert

[RogerDat]

Without getting into the "moral" arguments about corn as fuel since there are plenty of non-food plant material that can be used for ethanol production, or the equally irrelevant discussion of evil government agendas. The question is can cars run on it, and do so safely and effectively. Short answer is yes. Longer answer is the generally the same given cars built in the last several years.

Reason is simple, cars built by US car companies are intended to be sold around the world, and given the use of alcohol in fuel in much of the world is ubiquitous the vehicles are built to use alcohol because it is easier to build one version than have twice the number of engine models to inventory or provide parts for.

My 66 Triumph motorcycle has a notch to set the fuel jet to for different amounts of alcohol in the fuel. Just sayin this alcohol in fuel ain't new stuff. Some vehicles may get less miles per gallon from different blends but then simple math will show the cost per mile for each blend. Not stupid then you buy the one that has the lowest cost per mile. Sometimes the discount in price may not be enough to offset the loss of MPG, sometimes the lower price for alcohol blends will yield a lower cost per mile for fuel. Those that are fearful types will probably discount any information that does not feed or support their fearfulness.

[TXGunNut]

My 2010 Merc is a flex fuel vehicle and will run on E85 but have been advised to avoid it. My 97 F150 seems to run on most anything but many fuel system parts tolerate a limited amount of ethanol and parts are getting more expensive and hard to find every day.

[6bg6ga]

It is hard on gaskets, fuel lines, floats, and it attacks the metal in carbs in addition to what has been said. It was the cause of vapor lock and hard starting in carb vehicles.

[jonp]

Anybody use the Lucas Ethonal Additive?

[firefly1957]

On a side note i once read a report at work (GM) that under federal Corporate Average Fleet Economy (C.A.F.E.) a E-85 vehicle is counted as getting 66 MPG so even offering E-85 allowed companies to "cheat" the standard i am not sure this is still true today.