Flux

[docone31]

I stumbled upon an easy flux for the pot.
I took muriatic acid, mixed 10% acid, 90% water.
No smell, smoke, and the zinc I had in my "blend" rose directly to the top. I suspect I also took some out of solution metals also.
I got a nice clean mix. Typical oxides on the top, nice purple colour, no yellow. The blend also is easier to stir under heat.
I got the idea from going to ACE Hardware and getting some liquid flux. It is merely diluted HCL.
I tried it and it seems to work well. Supposedly non corrosive.
Much less smoke than beeswax.
Actually, no smoke at all. Wife is not whining.

[Morgan Astorbilt]

Docone, Soldering flux and lead tin antimony alloy flux are two different creatures with the same name. Soldering flux is designed to remove the oxides off metals to prepare them for soldering, which is an alloying of the surface molecules with the solder. Bullet metal flux is designed to loosen the surface tension, put the different lighter metals back into solution, and bring impurities to the surface for removal. If the fluxes worked the same, I'd be able to solder with my favorite bullet metal flux, good old Armour Lard. I'm glad it works for you, but I don't know why it does. I wonder what Marvelux is. I never tried it for soldering, and good old borax is excelent for brazing, so maybe you've got something there.:drinks:
Morgan

[GabbyM]

I tried that Lard flux in my smelting pot OUTSIDE the other day. Works great.

[Bill*]

How did you pour a water based solution into molten lead?

[docone31]

Ah ha! How did I pour a water based solution on liquid metal?
When I first started using it, I poured it on while the metal was still cool. It spread, got absorbed, and gave a wet look to some extent. I was sparing.
It all got heated up. No smoke, looked like shiney metal under the oxides.
Later, after I forked out as much zinc as I could find, I experimented.
I put some drops on the top of the metal. It was liquid, so, the flux made nice dancing balls. As the flux approached boiling and stopped dancing, the drops got immediately smaller and smaller. As soon as the balls disappeared, fluxing occured. Opposite where the ball disappeared, oxide lumps surfaced! Small, but lumps none the less. They had been held by the surface tension surrounding the lump. These were the ones I had missed by stirring.
When I work with gold, and silver, I use a flux I make from boric acid, borax, and Propylene Glycol. It makes a self pickling flux similiar to Batterns. Lead is nowhere near the heat of soldering gold. I use acetylene and oxygen. Tip temperature is 6800*.
I have used sodium bisulphate in lieu of borax when I laminate metals. I have also used it as an high heat flux. Sodium bisulphate is an acid that removes boric acid, or borax flux after heating.
Oxides, oxygen rusting, prevent ionic diffusion when alloying, melting, or soldering/brazing.
It was with that theory in mind that I ran this experiment. If it hadn't worked, I had to dump the pot anyway. I had massive zinc in the pot.
It worked! Yay.

[Ricochet]

I learned the hard way that simply having a bottle of muriatic acid open for a few seconds in my basement caused ALL my steel tools, dies, etc. that were uncovered to rust. And the hydrogen chloride gas released by its evaporation is really hard on the lungs.

[Bill*]

Excellent info....THANX- Bill

[RustyFN]

I learned the hard way that simply having a bottle of muriatic acid open for a few seconds in my basement caused ALL my steel tools, dies, etc. that were uncovered to rust. And the hydrogen chloride gas released by its evaporation is really hard on the lungs.
I'll second that. When I lived in California we did a job at a place that makes muriatic and sulphuric acids. I used to go through a lot of cloths and the tools looked like crap.
Rusty

[docone31]

Not when you flux with one of these.
http://www.fdjtool.com/store/showitem.asp?Cat=122&item=SO4414&store=5
The only way to go with liquid flux.
I shoulda mentioned I used that.

[montana_charlie]

As soon as the balls disappeared, fluxing occured. Opposite where the ball disappeared, oxide lumps surfaced! Small, but lumps none the less. They had been held by the surface tension surrounding the lump. These were the ones I had missed by stirring.
Excuse me if I mumble a bit while I munch a chunk of humble pie.
When I read your opening post I decided this is a guy with more imagination than common sense. After reading your second, I realized you are much further along the learning curve than I am.

But, before I give all my possessions to the poor and follow you to Jerusalem, I'd like to know if we are aiming for the same kind of salvation.

If your experiment was primarily to remove zinc from an otherwise useless alloy, I don't really need it. But if you are promoting the idea as an all around 'fluxing' method for our alloys, I might be induced to try it.

I need to know that the 'oxide lumps' you were able to find are the same substance I try to 'reduce' back into useable metal by introducing carbon to replace the oxygen molecules.

It seems you prefer to remove the oxides, while I try (as GW might say) to de-cum-oxi-did-i-fy those oxides.

So, what do those 'oxides' look like...flakey grey scummy stuff...or fine dark powder?
CM

[docone31]

CM,
I am referring to the flux as a general fluxing. The oxide lumps I got out of the mix were black slag lumps that had stayed in suspension below the immediate surface.
With the zinc I put in there, like duh!!!!!, I reduced the heat in the pot untill the zinc was easy to flip out. The fluxing was more to really just stir the pot and get an homogeneous mix.
I then cast about 200 185gn .312 bullets. They came out great.
My experiment with zinc proves to me it is not worth it. Perhaps a little does harden the batch, but I will go back to tin additives.
I sure felt real good at getting my lead mix to that shiney silvery floating sheen. The oxide scale that formed looked natural to the previous loads. A webbing of antimony, plates of excess tin. All that good stuff.
No need to wear sackcloth and ashes, any pilgrimages can be postponed till another time. I found a flux the wife does not morph into an head spinning, bared teeth, blowing lunch all over the place alien life form. It works and we are all happy today.
Of course, she will shoot an incredible amount next time we go to the range, I will spend the next month reloading her sighting in.
It all is better than the other ex-wives. She at least knows ammunition is not found on trees in the backyard.
She is also a silversmith and goldsmith, perhaps some day I can make her a bulletsmith. Who knows, the day is young.

[montana_charlie]

CM,
I am referring to the flux as a general fluxing. The oxide lumps I got out of the mix were black slag lumps that had stayed in suspension below the immediate surface.
I see. Since I have no problems with my alloy being possessed by devils such as those, I don't see a need to resort to your style of exorcism.

The oxide scale that formed looked natural to the previous loads. A webbing of antimony, plates of excess tin. All that good stuff.
And what method, pray, do you prefer for handling that?
CM

[docone31]

That is normal patterns of a melt. In the Lyman's Lead Casters Handbook, it shows pictures of lead melt.
My main purpose of the thread initiation was my excitement at being able to go into my little world, flux the lead, and cast my heart out.
My fair bride is pretty tolerant over some of my "hobbies". I do not blame her, when she expresses concern when I am melting wheel weights. That can stink pretty heavily. It passes though.
I also use charcoal to deoxidize. It seems impurities seem to cling to the charcoal as well as act as a deoxidant during use.
When I get lead solder on a customer's ring, I use wood to draw the lead out of the gold. Same with silver. Cuperals are hard to come by, and they are not reuseable.
I also sprinkle borax on the melt. It does not go liquid and draws oxides, those lumps with scale in them.

[JohnClark7886]

Ok y'all, color me stupid. I am rounding up wheel weights to pour my own buckshot with. And all this fluxing talk is fluxing me up. Can y'all give an absolute neophite a step by step of what I need to do to melt the wheel weights to cast buckshot. I am taking it that I will have to do a little more than melt and pour...give me some specifics, like use 1 pound of flux to 5 pounds of weights etc...or a guideline to go by....thanks for helping an idiot out...now how do I light the burner again ??

[wmitty]

John; don't get fluxed. Take a small handful of last fall's dried leaves and crumble them over the wheel weights once they're melted. Then stir them into the melt. Cheapest flux I know of. (DRIED LEAVES)

[Ricochet]

She is also a silversmith and goldsmith, perhaps some day I can make her a bulletsmith.
So's my daughter. I've gotten her to cast some boolits that she used in making jewelry, and I've given her a bunch of boolits of every sort that I've cast for artistic use. She likes to shoot too, but isn't into handloading yet.

[docone31]

It is great you get to share that with your daughter. That is really wonderful.
All my other wives, were die hard liberals. Gun grabbers right out of the gate. It was miserable. Of course, that is why they are exes.
My wife currently, came with a Smith 686. She just did not know how to shoot it. Her previous firearms instructor taught her..... I am not sure what, but she at least knew something.
Basically, the single opening on the other side of the rubber things was where the bullet comes out of.
Today, she is not quite ready for racing, or IPSC, but she is considering it. I got her a nice race gun for Christmas, she got me a turret loader in her caliber.
Once I have her mold broken in, I believe I am going to show her how much fun it really is. Even if she only makes a few.
She blew out her knee so I am slowly getting her ready to increase her endurance. Racing takes some stamina!
She does not do our shop casting yet, the heat has her intimidated. She can do prong repairs, set stones, and do ring sizing. Lapidary comes later. She can work turquoise fairly well.
Good for you and your daughter! I really wish you both well.

[Bill*]

Ricochet--- Have you thought about having your daughter cast some silver bullets?? Between werewolves and vampires there's no doubt SOMEbody on ebay will snap them up. HeHeHe