Bullets casting light!

[Chris C]

I recently had a custom mold made. The bullet was intended to weigh 270 gr to fit the 1-14 twist in my .38-55, 1885 Highwall. Instead of 270 gr, my bullets are coming out of the mold at around 266 gr. I didn't mix my lead, but have had the BHN read at 15.........which, from what I've learned, is probably a Lyman #2. And the 250 gr bullets from another mold (same mold maker) drop at about 244 gr. Is the problem with me, or the mold maker? First off, I'm wondering why the bullets are so much lighter and second, I'm wondering how to get them to increase in weight a little bit. They are only 1 1/2% light, but I was hoping for the full 270 gr for stabilization in that twist.

[JSnover]

Are they on size but light, or are they also casting small?

[jcren]

The problem is your alloy. Mold manufactures spec molds to a specific alloy and different alloys, say one with more tin, will weigh differently. Find out what your mold manufacture recomends and get that if you need exact weight. If hardness is not a problem, adding pure lead to your alloy will increase the weight.

[Walter Laich]

on same lines are they all uniform in weight? light but still weigh the same?

My concern is always diameter and not grains give or take

[runfiverun]

6 grs makes ZERO difference in stabilization.
it's length, that's why you can get a RN bullet to shoot and not a long ogive one in a jacketed round.
the post above talking about mold specification for the alloy is on the right track.
if you want heavier add more lead and less other light stuff to your alloy.

[mdi]

Agree with runfiverun, but another thought; ask the mold mfg. what alloy they used to determine/design the bullet for the target weight...

[dragon813gt]

Did you tell the mold maker what alloy you were using? Not "about this alloy". Did you tell them exactly what alloy you are using? None of the molds I have cast at the weight in the specs. I don't use wheel weights so the bullets weight differently.

[swheeler]

4 grains is not that far off the quoted 270, the bullet should hold that much lube making them 270 grs ready to load. If you want them to cast heavier add more pure lead to your alloy, but I see no problem with what they are now, uniform weight is more important IMHO

[dragon813gt]

Cast inside in a climate controlled room. If you wanted to go all out you could design a room to maintain a consistent pressure in it as well. But that's overkill IMO.

[Mk42gunner]

Alloy BHN is a pretty poor way to try to spec weight of a boolit. There are several ways to make 15 BHN, all of which will weigh differently.

Stabilization is by length of the projectile, not the weight. Your 4 and 6 grain light boolits will be fine, as long as they are large enough in diameter.

Robert

[Chris C]

Just now getting back to my computer. It has been brought to my attention, as MK42gunner mentioned, just because I have a BHN of 15 doesn't necessarily mean I've got a Lyman #2 alloy. I told the mold maker #2 was what I was using...........in the case of both molds. I'm casting inside my shop, which is temp controlled to about 70 degrees. The bullets are casting in a very tight range in weights and consistent in diameter. The bullet I designed is Accurate #38-270C...........1" long and measures 1.003"-1.005". It's been recommended I have my alloy analyzed so I'll know what it is actually.

[dondiego]

Why don't you just shoot a bunch of them and see how they do? Do you really need them to be exactly 270 grains?

[JSnover]

Why don't you just shoot a bunch of them and see how they do? Do you really need them to be exactly 270 grains?
^That!
If you like your alloy, you can keep your alloy.
If they're consistent in weight and size, 4 grains isn't enough to keep you awake at night.

[Spector]

If you look at all of the Accurate Molds drawings they specify ''approximate weight'' in a given alloy.

I ordered a custom mold as well. 45 230 Z. It casts a few grains heavy, but no big deal. I knew he would try to hit the weight I gave him, but I also knew from the drawing he asked me to review that the weight was only an estimate.

I would not do it, but if that few grains under weight bothers you enough I suppose you could lap out the mold and then size the boolit back down. That should increase the weight.

I plan to order more molds from "Accurate.

Mike

[243winxb]

Bullet Sizes & Weights – How to Vary Them
The bullet diameters and weights presented in this list are based on the use of Taracorp’s Lawrence Magnum bullet alloy (2% tin, 6% antimony, 1/4% arsenic, 91.75% lead).

Bullet diameters and weights will vary considerably depending on the lead casting alloy used. This variation can be as much as 1/2% on the diameter, and 8% on the weight among the most commonly used casting alloys. For example, a .358-158 grain bullet might show a diameter variation of .002", and a 13 grain difference in weight.

Of the most commonly used alloys, wheel weights (.5% tin, 4% antimony, 95% lead) will produce bullets having the smallest diameter and heaviest weight, with such bullets running approximately 1/3% smaller in diameter and 3% heavier than bullets cast with Taracorp's metal. Linotype will produce bullets with the largest diameter and lightest weights. This alloy will produce bullets approximately 1/10% larger and 3% lighter than Taracorp. Other alloys of tin and antimony, with antimony content above 5%, will produce bullets with diameters and weights falling between those cast f rom wheel weights and linotype.

Alloys containing little or no antimony will cast considerably smaller than wheel weights and in some cases will produce bullets too small for adequate sizing.

Within the limitations given above, the weight and diameter of a cast bullet can be adjusted by varying the
alloy’s antimony content.

The size and weight of bullets of a given alloy will also vary according to casting temperature. Higher temperatures will result in greater shrinkage as the bullet cools, thereby producing a slightly smaller and lighter bullet than one cast of the same alloy at a lower temperature.
http://www.redding-reloading.com/online-catalog/88-bullet-moulds-charts I just cast some 200 gr BB 45acp with Rotometal linotype. Normal with misc scrap weight is 204 gr. The lino came in at 194 grs. Lyman 4 cavity mold.

[Chris C]

I also might add that one of my problems is a 50% reject rate caused by mold not filling out. I've got a sample packaged up and am going to send it to BNE and see what the heck kind of alloy I've got in my pot. (and all my inventory!)

[John Boy]

I also might add that one of my problems is a 50% reject rate caused by mold not filling out.Now the truth comes out ... not the mold, the caster - so:
* Bring the mold & the pot temperature up so with a 5 second pour, the sprue puddle frosts in 5 - 8 seconds. You can even go up to a 10 second sprue puddle frost time
Believe your issues will disappear
And keep the nose of the ladle stuffed in the sprue hole when pouring with CONSTANT CASTING RHYTHM

[Chris C]

Whoa.............hold up before you blame the the "newbie" caster. :D I brought the mold temp up to 400 today and the PID up to 750. My sprue puddle frosts in a hair less than 10 seconds and my dwell time is 20 seconds and I'm back pouring within 3 seconds. I'm absolutely constant in my cycling, which can be confirmed from my constant weights being within + or - .6 gr, even though they are about 4 gr lighter than the mold maker projected. Today I cast 94 bullets and had 48 rejects..........yesterday with a 350 degree mold and 655 degree PID my reject rate was also 50%. Not sure how you can call that the caster's fault. I'm still convinced I've got something wrong in my lead. Oh, and I don't use a ladle, but a bottom pour.

[Toymaker]

Top of the day to you Chris. Your issue interests me. My first question is: Are you sure your 1885 High Wall twist is 1:14? You didn't say who made the rifle, but Pedersoli has a very popular 1885 High Wall in 38-55 and I believe the twist is 1:12. Second question is: What are your bore and groove diameters? Last: What is your bullet diameter?
As others have noted, if you are getting consistent weights, even though they are light, you don't have a problem. The length of the bullet and the nice crisp trailing edge is what's important. I suggest you mic a sample of your bullets 24 hours after casting and write the diameter on the bullet or number the bullet and log the diameter. Then every day or two mic them again and log the result. Antimony (from wheel weights) will cause your bullet diameter to change over a weeks time.
Your alloy is way too hard at BHN 15. A mix of 20:1, BHN 9-10, is about as hard as you want for the 38-55. 25:1, 30:1 and even pure have been used very successfully. Pure is a bit difficult to cast and a bit of tin for 30:1 is easier. You'll find your bullets will be a little heavier.
Compliments on your casting technique. I've always found casting bullets from a bottom pour to be difficult. Round ball, no problem, but bullet casting is done with a ladle. May I suggest an experiment since you're using a PID (isn't it great!!??!!). Try increasing your temperature 10° and do a casting session. Do several sessions going up 10° each time. Don't be afraid of going as high as 800°. See if you rejects decrease at a higher temperature. If so you can then play on either side of that temperature to find the sweet spot. If you get frosting IT IS NOT BAD, just a bit too hot. If they weights are good just wipe them with a flannel cloth and the frosting will buff out. Pitting is bad.
FYI - I'd like to keep up on your progress. Seems I'm working on a 1885 High Wall in 38-55 also. But this one is 1:12 twist, uses Starline 2.125 inch cases, 0.379 x 0.371 bore/groove, BACO "Money" bullet, 0.380" diameter, 1.465" long. 369.0 - 369.5 grains with 20:1 from RotoMetals, cast at 775°. I've never taken the temperature of my mold, just heat it up good on a hot plate.

[Chris C]

Hi, Toymaker. I'm casting for a C. Sharps 1885 Highwall in .38-55 and the barrel is a 30" Green Mountain with a 1:14 twist.....verified.

168116

Bore slugs at .3762" and I'm casting a .380" bullet sized to .377". Crisp edges on the casting is the only thing I accept as a "keeper"...........all others are rejects. Hence the 50% reject rate. The bullets I cast today went straight into water from the mold and tested at a 21 BHN. You state that even 15 is too high. That surprises me. I'm shooting smokeless powder and pushing about 1300 fps. If you are shooting a money bullet, I'm assuming you are using black powder. I use Starline brass trimmed to 2.075" with an OAL length of 2.510", which fits my chamber perfectly. As far as mold temp goes, I preheat my mold in a toaster oven set at 400 degrees while the pot is heating up.............I'm clueless as to what it "actually" measures. I lubed and sized 150 of the "keepers" today. Planning on loading 50 of them tomorrow, so I could measure the others at various intervals to observe any changes. I knew the BHN changed, but didn't know the diameter also changed! Lots to learn on this end...........but give me credit for trying. Next time I sit down to cast, I'll raise the temp by 10 degrees and see what happens. I was under the impression 750 was about the upper limit.

[runfiverun]

750 is about where Tin starts to oxidize out of the alloy quickly.
you just have to either protect the top of the alloy or reduce the oxides back in more often.

[Mk42gunner]

As per runfiverun's signature line:
it's all an educated guess,,,, till the trigger is pulled.


Chris,

See how the ones you already cast shoot. If they shoot all right, things are good. If not, change one thing at a time until you get acceptable results.

After reading of your desired ballistics, 270 @ 1300fps, I really don't think your bullets need to be that hard, but if they work, they work. To me that weight and speed sound awful close to a Magnum revolver, and air cooled wheel weights have been doing a good job there for years.

On your reject rate, sometimes a new mold needs to be heat cycled a few times before it really starts casting well. My most memorable one was a Lee 312-185, I had cast with it several times with so-so results until suddenly it started acting like a Hensley & Gibbs mold, with the boolits positively jumping out when the handles were opened and very few rejects. Same pot of lead, same setting on the dial (I know because I turned it on and off by unplugging it), same everything, it just started working right. Maybe the planets aligned that day or something.

You might try a ladle, but it is hard for me to see how one could be more consistent than what you are doing. It might improve your keeper rate though.

Bottom line: Go back and read the quote at the top of this post.

Robert

[Chris C]

On your reject rate, sometimes a new mold needs to be heat cycled a few times before it really starts casting well.

Let's see, when I first received the mold, I put it in the toaster oven at 450 degrees for a half hour...........let it air cool to ambient temp of room. Repeated that cycle 4 times before ever putting lead in the cavities. I've had 4 sessions with the mold. Have cast somewhere in the neighborhood of 750 bullets..........mostly rejects. When might I see it start producing primarily "keepers"? :wink:


What galls my ego the most is I've two other molds, a 240 gr .38-55 bullet and a 170 gr .38/.357 bullet and I pour bullets from both those that are in the 99% keeper range. In fact, the .38/.357 usually drops about 4 to 6 bad bullets at the beginning of the run and then perfect bullets until I get tired of pouring or am interrupted by the phone, the wife, or "nature's call". :D

I've going to load up 50 rounds today, with various powders and as soon as the weather gives me a day to shoot I'll see what they do. The test is in the shootin'.

[44man]

So true weight does not affect stability and I never, ever seen any mold cast the right weight as listed.
I pre heat my molds to 500° in a little oven and keep my lead at 750°. 800 when pure or close to pure.
Afraid your mold is too cold. 400° will freeze lead right now.

[wmitty]

Chris C

Didn't see the word density mentioned in the comments made by others. The density of lead is greater than that of the other two primary metals in your alloy; tin and antimony. Increase the quantity of lead in relation to the other two and the weight of your boolits will increase. If you have a known near pure lead alloy, you might want to cast a quantity of boolits from this and check their weight to see if the density you are looking for has been met or even exceeded.

density in gm/cc

lead - 11.34

tin - 7.29

antimony - 6.69

[Toymaker]

Chris, BEAUTIFUL rifle!!! hmmmm.... familiar scope too. I've developing loads for both black and smokeless. Don't know if it'll work, but it doesn't hurt to try. I managed to do it with my 45-70 Rolling Block, with two smokeless powders and two bullets no less!! From 100 yards, off the bench; note the velocities. I can reduce the velocity to around 1250 fps and be equally accurate.
168144 168146So far with the 38-55 I found that 46 grains Goex FFg, with barely no compression, gives an excellent group with 53 grains second best. I'm going to start working on FFFg next.
I scared myself using TrailBoss just for laughs.168148Problem is, I have a pellet rifle that's faster. The initial pressure spike is really sharp so I'm looking for another powder that comes close.
Oh, the joys of load development.............

[Chris C]

I'm not shooting at 100 yds yet. But here's a 50 yd target with 240 gr bullets out of my 1885. It's 10 shots off sticks.

168151

[Toymaker]

"Mold not filling out" but you've heat cycled it, you preheat, lead temperature is in range. Why don't you boil that mold? That's right, boil it. Put a wash cloth in a pot of water, put the mole halves on top of the wash cloth and turn on the heat. When it starts a slow boil time it for 30 minutes. When done and still warm rinse the halves with alcohol or acetone.

I had a mold that would not cast good bullets. I did the above at the suggestion of another caster except I rinsed with alcohol AND then acetone too. It worked like a charm. Later my friend told me that the mold probably had machinist oil or preservative oil that soaked into the pores of the metal and didn't come out when I cleaned the mold.

Just another thought. ----- nice shooting by the way

[Chris C]

"Boil it"????? Never heard of that one. I can imagine steel absorbing oil, but not aluminum............though I guess it's possible. I just might give that a try.

[country gent]

Chris, welcome and keep working on this mould. All materials have pores nd grain structures. Throw in machining marks and chatter, along with todays some what tenacious cutting fluids preservatives. A very thouroh cleanning is needed I clean with acetone and a tooth brush first then boil with dish soap and water mix. Then a good scubing with dish soap water and a tooth brush realliy working up a suds several times completely rinsing between. Lightly lubricate hinge points on blocks and handles. I also run a awl or sharp scribe point thru the vent lines lightly to make sure they are open and not plugged. Some times a light bevel on the tops of each block helps with venting very light 45* angle and .003-.005 on a side. SInce your getting consistant wieghts What are the reason dor the rejects wrinkles, poor fill out bad bases air pockets? Know what and where would help.

[Chris C]

Very seldom have wrinkles. Maybe 1% have a rounded base corner. The rest are rounded edges on lube grooves. Then there are the sink spots showing up in the lube grooves themselves. I'm not worrying about it right now, though. I'll get this break-in cycle done and get the mold casting again and see what happens. No sense in second guessing the whole thing until I can verify this boiling thing has worked............or not. Now if I can just get my wife to quit complaining that the oven smells unlike when it's cooking a meal. ;-)

[HangFireW8]

One possible cause of poor fillout is poor mold venting. Check all the mold vent lines under magnification, and make sure they are clean, connected to the cavities without a burr in the way, and go all the way out.

I agree with the others, the weight difference is nothing to worry about. A 50% reject rate, even for a picky caster, is a problem, especially as your are doing so much correct- PID, rhythm, etc.

[TomAM]

Everyone has different methods of clearing out that occasional residue (probably machine coolant) that stubbornly adheres to mold cavities.

When it happens to me, I do this:
I set the mold aside and increase the alloy temp to 850 deg (the maximum on my Pro-Melt). When max alloy temperature is reached, a cast at a brisk pace, paying no heed to bullet quality. Keep casting till the sprue takes 10 seconds to solidify. You'll likely see a bit of smoke coming from the cavities. That was the contaminant. Reduce alloy temp and make some boolits. This method has never failed me.
Subjecting the cavity surface to 850 degrees for a few minutes is much more effective than cooking the whole mold, and eliminates the risk of warping a brass mold by cooking.

As to the issue of bullet weight, I use a customer's alloy information to compensate for diameter contraction only.
A boolit's dimensions are much more important than a few grains of weight, even for stability calculation.
I'm not sure why people sometimes assume that I tweak the lengths to adjust for alloy weight, but if I did I would get far more complaints and justifiably so. I don't deviate from the cataloged drawing's length dimensions unless it's requested. And even then, I don't guarantee an exact weight. I don't use bullet design software, and my CAD software's 3D rendering is all but useless, so design weights are approximate.

[TXGunNut]

One possible cause of poor fillout is poor mold venting. Check all the mold vent lines under magnification, and make sure they are clean, connected to the cavities without a burr in the way, and go all the way out.

I agree with the others, the weight difference is nothing to worry about. A 50% reject rate, even for a picky caster, is a problem, especially as your are doing so much correct- PID, rhythm, etc.


I agree. I would also start over once again on the soapy scrub and heat cycle regimen. Some moulds just take a while to break in, can't explain it. Just happens. May want to loosen the sprue plate just a touch as well.
As for the variance from nominal weight try weighing 4-6grs of lead. It isn't much more than a spatter. Dimensions are more important. Question is; how does it shoot? I'd try a few air-cooled as well.

[Chris C]

I managed to get one heat cycle done last night before the little wife banned me from the house. Said the mold stunk up the whole place. I'll try the next cycles in my little toaster oven in the shop.......though I don't have any way to verify the temperature in it.

I loaded up 50 test rounds yesterday with five different powder combinations, so I'll see how the bullets shoot. These were all in the "keeper" batch. Beautiful bullets. I have two of your Accurate molds now, Tom, and really like the bullets that come from them...............this one is just giving me some fits right now. I feel sure when I get it clean and running, I'll be casting loadable bullets. I'll give your 850 degree method a try when I get back to casting.

[C. Latch]

A bit of pressure might help fillout. Place a length of wooden 2x4 next to your casting area, and every time you fill the mold, tap is lightly on the 2x4 in a downward motion, while the lead is still molten. Doing this has allowed me to get very good fillout, with very sharp details, on certain molds.

This isn't a fix, though, it's just a workaround for real problems, such as poorly vented molds, or, more likely in your case, a too-tight sprue plate. Loosening the sprue plate might help you a lot here.

[Rattlesnake Charlie]

One of two things. Either there is some contamination in the mold, or you aren't filling the cavity fast enough.

Contamination
There are a couple of suggestions already, boiling or casting with real hot lead. I lean towards using carburetor cleaner. Some use brake cleaner as it is more user and environmentally friendly. Then, there is a recent thread on this website about using Kroil in the cavities. I've not tried this, but intend to soon as it is working for so many casters.

Fill Rate
There are some molds that like to be filled fast. I don't know why if the mold is already up to temperature, but I have a couple that like to be filled faster than I can accomplish with a Lee bottom pour pot. A large ladle might be worth a try. Also, enlarging the holes in the sprue plate will increase the fill rate.

Just a couple of ideas ....

[HangFireW8]

I mentioned mold venting and others too-tight sprue plate. Keep in mind venting at the sprue plate works fine except when pressure casting or with a very hot melt.

[BK7saum]

As far as having rounded bases, I find that I need to overflow the sprue pour a bit or the bases end up rounded. I would imagine that if your pouring just until the sprue countersink is filled, that is part of your problem. I also use Lee pots. Other than slightly rounded bases my boolits are perfect. Give it a try. I pour four cavities at a moderate pour and try to end up with a big puddle on top of the sprue plate at each cavity. At the end of pouring 4 cavities, I have one big sprue puddle, and likely additional lead has ran off the end of the sprue plate. That and slightly loosening the sprue plate are what has solved my rounded base problems.

Brad

[44man]

Making my own molds out of aluminum, I flush chips with water soluble oil but if the bottle goes empty I grab the can of WD-40, really hate the stuff for anything else but in a pinch it will lube the cherry.
I use hot tap water and dish soap with an old tooth brush just one time and first casts are perfect.
New Lee dies have never been any problem. Or any other make, metal.
I don't understand all the strange procedures!
Proper heat and how you cast will make boolits.

[Nose Dive]

Gee Chris...If your getting 266 grn boolit from a 270 grn mold.... gee... You dun gud!

Fill out... rounded edges.... mmmmm.. As the fellas say... clean the mold..many methodologies offered here....
Temp of mold... again... try some... move around with the temp of the mold.... A new mold may not have found its sweet spot yet as it too is new, machined metal... I cut many pieces of metal to do many different jobs... some just need some 'happy time' to settle in and be happy.

Alloy...this is big issue. Tin helps fill out... Linotype ...pewter...(pewter is my 'go to solution' for bad boolits...and I have alot!). geee... alot of adivce here too. 21 BHN is a tall order...why so hard? But,,,it is your boolit..your gun...your application and I say GO FOR IT...

I smelt alot of trash..nasties and corruption. Range scrap... road kill... scrap yard rejects... So... in my smelt... I cannot ever know what I am ending up with for alloy or BHN. Never KNOW my starting point. So.. I didn't see where you start with your alloy mix... your 'starting' point on BHN. And.. I did see you water drop, yes? ME TOO! All my boolits are water dropped into a ICE BATH and sit for an hour or so...in icy water... then out to the 'storage shed' for a month or so to...well...get happy... I target a 12 to 14 hardness for my 45 and 44 pistol/rifle boolits. Gas Checked...and 'home lubed'... (my homeboy recipe for lube)... I too...miss the mark about 50% of the time for fill out and hardness, but my ingots are NOT STANDARD...NO STORE bought stuff to help alloy to what I like. GARAGE SALE pewter is all I have to alloy with...and yes I do treat heavy with sawdust and sulfur when smelting. (Don't do this in the "CITY")... When I see my boolits are not coming out 'good'... I heat up...say 780 or so and try some more...no good...OK..batch is bad and I resmelt ignots with more sawdust and sulfur. again...I start out with bad news stuff...

Mold temp is important...I start out low with the mold..in oven to say 450 or so...heat up ingots...cast some as new rejects and hope with heat up, that may help fill out. I once had 800 lbs of lead from an old 'oil skimmer'... I think it had some aluminum in it... Added some pewter...kept casting and once things got hot...things got better...

I don't shoot what you shoot. I shoot old rugers...45... old S&Ws... 44 mag.... heavy loads...gas checks...my home lube... heavy powder charges...BIG BANG THEORY... Shot some deer..few elk... scared off some bears....blown up ice jugs and melons by the 1,000s... all fun...No competition and only a few deer from the 30/30 but not to the 21 BHN you are shopping for. I am now loading a 32H&R mag I 'made' from a NAGANT revolver and a Korean cyclinder bored to 32 HR Mag. 100 GRN mold...pound it out to a Hollow Point and 'LOAD HER UP"! HOT.. for H&R specs.... 12 to 14BHN...I hope... But todate...good accuracy from a 1949 pistol made in Russia and an old man with bad eyes and shaky hands. This is NOTHING LIKE WHAT you have and are attempting to accomplish. I acknowledge that now,,,,hands down.

I read on another thread on this site some good advice..or I think it is.

1. Take notes on your alloy. What is in the smelt...the ingot...MARK THE INGOT thus.
2. Note your temps on the cast pot...and what you see and do to the mold.
3. Let some of the boolits 'sit' and age. Note that. Sounds stupid, but the metal changes with time
4. Note if you water drop...mark boolits thus.

Or..simply...record what you do and what you have done and mark on it what you have.

I 'ice water drop' all my boolits. Ice in bucket...cotton towel on top of ice..weights on towel so only ICE WATER and
soft cotton towel is what my boolits see when dropped into the bucket. (Pretty silly yes? Wife thinks so too!)
But I get a good boolit and can drop about 300 or so 45s in one session and can drain and sane all boolits in 5
minutes...put in boolit case...tag case..date, alloy, caliber..weight..and put in shed for a month or so... the BNH
does change with time. And, will change when sized and lubed! Test them.. you will see. So,,after sizing...yes..
Unless I am in need of some urgently needed 'range fodder'...i put them back in the shed for a month or so....

OK..gee...I really didn't mean this to be such a huge bit of prose. But...had the time and your effort is of dire
interest to me...and..as I can read above...to about 30 other guys!!

Good luck with the loads!!

Nose Dive

Cheap, Fast, Good. Kindly pick two.

PS: have on occasion immediately sized boolits out of the water bath. let sit a month and tested BHN..these versus
'wait a month and size boolits' show real no delta after two month each resting. Am still 'testing' ice bath and aging
scenarios.

[243winxb]

Casting bulllet here sounds like witchcraft. Need to get the spirits involved. Plus shake and bake. [smilie=l:

[44man]

Casting bulllet here sounds like witchcraft. Need to get the spirits involved. Plus shake and bake. [smilie=l:
Yeah, the easiest thing ever needs a million posts and a million pages to record. Pure crazy! This mold needs THIS and on and on.
A new guy will never decipher all when it it so simple you confuse the poor guy. If he was here, he would make perfect in 5 minutes. I care less the mold or alloy.
All of you need to stop over thinking casting.
.

[Chris C]

Okay, I just got the results from BNE on my sample. Barry says my Pb =94.1% and my Sb=5.9%. Is that good or bad? If it's bad, is it why I'm having trouble casting these bullets?

[BK7saum]

For good fill out most recommend balancing the antimony and tin. With 5% antimony and no tin to speak of I imagine you would be having rounded bases and poor fill out. You should balance the tin or at least add enough that you are getting better fill out.

[Tailhunter]

Can you try getting your mold a little hotter.
I cant get **** to cast at 350.



ps ... when did krap become a **** word?

[44man]

Have to say poo or doo-doo! Electronic catch. We can't swear. Dog droppings are OK. Came about from calling others names and I agree to NEVER do that but a product still needs called out.
Anyway back to alloys. Too much tin is not good. Just need it to make a blend on the molecular scale. I don't believe more heat will boil out tin if it is an alloy. Our pots can't do that.
Antimony NEEDS some tin.
Heat balance with the mold and melt will get it together.

[Chris C]

popper, I don't understand all of your "shortcuts". i.e. 25K "what"? Cut 50/50 "what"?...........right on down the line. Your talking in a foreign language and I'm a newbie to casting. Speak in simple terms I can understand, please.

[jcren]

Popper is referring to 25,000 psi pressure for the cartridge. This is a low pressure round that doesn't benefit from that much antimony in the alloy. If you blend your alloy with an equal amount of pure lead (50/50) and add around 2% tin or pewter by weight you will have a nice all purpose alloy that will fill out easily. Antimony doesn't melt at our temps, but forms a crystaline chain that works as a latice to support the lead. Tin reduces the surface tension of lead and helps fill this latice and the books and crannies of the mold.

[243winxb]

Tin melts at 450 degrees F. Thats why adding it to the alloy, fills out the mold better. Same as using a higher temperature.
Antimony/Melting point- 1,167°F. Lead/Melting point-621.5°F Mix it all together, and who knows what temperature its going to melts at ??

[Chris C]

Popper is referring to 25,000 psi pressure for the cartridge. This is a low pressure round that doesn't benefit from that much antimony in the alloy. If you blend your alloy with an equal amount of pure lead (50/50) and add around 2% tin or pewter by weight you will have a nice all purpose alloy that will fill out easily. Antimony doesn't melt at our temps, but forms a crystaline chain that works as a latice to support the lead. Tin reduces the surface tension of lead and helps fill this latice and the books and crannies of the mold.

Thanks, that helps. I'm new to this and speaking in "code" from experience isn't understood by the inexperienced. :D I don't have a large volume smelter..........just my 20# bottom pour pot. Doesn't make too much sense to try and blend a 20# batch, does it? Or is there an inexpensive way to get into smelting say 50 pounds or 100 pounds at a time?

[Dusty Bannister]

Tin melts at 450 degrees F. Thats why adding it to the alloy, fills out the mold better. Same as using a higher temperature.
Antimony/Melting point- 1,167°F.
Lead/Melting point-621.5°F
Mix it all together, and who knows what temperature its going to melts at ??[/QUOTE]

Linotype melts at 465 F so it might depend upon your blended ratios.

[jcren]

Thanks, that helps. I'm new to this and speaking in "code" from experience isn't understood by the inexperienced. :D I don't have a large volume smelter..........just my 20# bottom pour pot. Doesn't make too much sense to try and blend a 20# batch, does it? Or is there an inexpensive way to get into smelting say 50 pounds or 100 pounds at a time?

Turkey fryers are the cheapest way to get into smelting, but in the mean time, just throw equal number/amounts of invite from your alloy and a known soft alloy into the pot at a time.

[Chris C]

No problem. It was explained. I'm a total newbie and don't understand all the acronyms and shortcuts. My daughter laughs at me when I have to get her to explain her texts to me sometimes. I'm old-fashioned and not up to speed with all this "new" technology and language.

[blackthorn]

It would not be a good idea to melt scrap lead in your casting furnace. Only put clean metal in there. A pot to melt scrap can be made from an old 20 pound propane cylinder. Screw out the valve, fill the tank with water,and use a zip-cut tool to cut a larger hole in the top of the tank. Next, dump out the water, lay the tank on itsside and cut around the circumference close to the "shoulder" on thetank. A makeshift burner for running thepot can be made using a Tiger torch, a 45 degree steel, galvanized or castpluming elbow and 4 cement building blocks. Place the elbow on the ground, held in placeby the 4 blocks. Set the tank over thehole in the middle of the blocks and place the tiger torch in the lower end ofthe elbow. Fill (or whatever) the potwith scrap, light the torch and away you go. Be prepared to dip the melted metal out of thetank---you for sure will not lift it to pour! Have fun!

[Chris C]

Thanks. Have found a fella here on the forum who will make one of those and ship it for $65. Think it might be worth it to not mess with all the hassle of doing it myself. Still have to buy a burner and a ladle, but it seems worth it to me.

[JSnover]

Still have to buy a burner and a ladle, but it seems worth it to me.
It's worth it for sure. I think I bought my Rowell ladle from RotoMetals (one of our sponsors).

[Chris C]

Well I have to admit I'm disappointed and totally disillusioned. Have done what everyone suggested........down to my last post about getting the mix "right". 50/50 my inventory/pure lead and then 2% tin. Got that all done yesterday and was looking forward to casting good bullets today. Went out to the bench this morning and fired up the PID at 700 degrees. Put my mold in the toaster oven at 350 degrees for an hour. Cast bullets for a little over an hour and never got a single keeper. I'm frustrated, to say the least. Getting the mix right was supposed to make today's casting session a success..............and it was far from it. After about 15 minutes of casting I raised the temp to 715 and then to 730 about 20 minutes later. Nothing seems to be working. I've got wrinkles, sink areas as well as obvious voids inside the bullet. I'm going to go clean the mold again...........as if that might make a difference.[smilie=b:

[243winxb]

Okay, I just got the results from BNE on my sample. Barry says my Pb =94.1% and my Sb=5.9%. Is that good or bad? If it's bad, is it why I'm having trouble casting these bullets? You should have just added the tin. http://i338.photobucket.com/albums/n420/joe1944usa/Firearms%20%20and%20%20Reloading/AlloyBlending1.jpg

[243winxb]

I put my Lee 10 lb pot at maximum, flux, start casting to heat iron molds. When i get frosted bullets, i lower the pot temperature. Pure lead is the hardest to cast for me, requiring high heat. The slug mold had to be pressure cast to get fill out with pure lead. http://i338.photobucket.com/albums/n420/joe1944usa/CastBullets_20090207_004.jpg

[Chris C]

I've been told so many things by so many people about how to adjust my alloy I don't know which way to turn. Tim Malcolm (Goodsteel) told me to do it the way I did. Others said the same............and others suggested other combinations. Confusing for a newbie, to say the least.

[C. Latch]

Well I have to admit I'm disappointed and totally disillusioned. Have done what everyone suggested........down to my last post about getting the mix "right". 50/50 my inventory/pure lead and then 2% tin. Got that all done yesterday and was looking forward to casting good bullets today. Went out to the bench this morning and fired up the PID at 700 degrees. Put my mold in the toaster oven at 350 degrees for an hour. Cast bullets for a little over an hour and never got a single keeper. I'm frustrated, to say the least. Getting the mix right was supposed to make today's casting session a success..............and it was far from it. After about 15 minutes of casting I raised the temp to 715 and then to 730 about 20 minutes later. Nothing seems to be working. I've got wrinkles, sink areas as well as obvious voids inside the bullet. I'm going to go clean the mold again...........as if that might make a difference.[smilie=b:


You do not have a heat problem.

You have either a mold problem, or an alloy problem.

(This assumes your stated temps are accurate, or reasonably so).

How long does it take for your sprues to freeze over when you cast?

If you take your hot lead, pout it into the mold, filling all cavities and leaving a puddle on top of each one that makes a long bridge of lead across the top of the cavities.....how many seconds does it take for this pool of lead on top to harden after you stop pouring? One second? Five?

If the former, your alloy isn't what you think. If the latter, your alloy is fine, your mold is poorly vented.

(I'm trying to distill a thousand words.....leaving out details, but I think I'm telling you correctly).

How tight is your sprue plate? It should swing freely on its own, and maybe even 'rattle' very slightly if you shake the mold while it's empty and the sprue plate is shut.

[44man]

I've been told so many things by so many people about how to adjust my alloy I don't know which way to turn. Tim Malcolm (Goodsteel) told me to do it the way I did. Others said the same............and others suggested other combinations. Confusing for a newbie, to say the least.
DO NOTHING with the alloy, take lead to 750° and mold to 500°. You need to stop fooling with cold stuff!
Then work out the cadence needed to keep good boolits coming.
Your mold is so far below lead melt, it is freezing at first touch. Sorry but a mold must keep lead liquid longer.
Stop by, I have a softer mallet that won't dent you so bad! :bigsmyl2::bigsmyl2::bigsmyl2:
HEAT my friend--HEAT. I heat soak molds at 500° but that is at the top of the little furnace so the mold itself is hotter. I can't measure but bet my molds are at 600°, maybe more. Don't count seconds either for sprue set. Gain the FORCE or I will send Walkers for you.
If you want the princess you must make boolit one to a full 20# without a light saber.
I don't know how anyone can cast lead at such low temps as recommended.
Wish you were close so I can devote 10 minutes to you. All it takes, not years and a billion posts.

[Chris C]

Temp is controlled by PID...........so it's accurate. Sprues freeze over in 5 to 8 sec. Two cavity mold, big puddle over both cavities. I've chased the vent lines with sharpened awl and they are clean. Sprue plate swings on it's own when there's no lead in/on it. Don't know that it rattles.............I'll check that and loosen if necessary. Have filed a slight 45 degree angle on top of mold mating surfaces. Went back later and heated mold to 450 and PID to 800 and started getting better bullets............some actually usable, though not perfect yet. The higher the temp the better the fill at this point. Just hate to cast my bullets at that high a temp.

[44man]

Temp is controlled by PID...........so it's accurate. Sprues freeze over in 5 to 8 sec. Two cavity mold, big puddle over both cavities. I've chased the vent lines with sharpened awl and they are clean. Sprue plate swings on it's own when there's no lead in/on it. Don't know that it rattles.............I'll check that and loosen if necessary. Have filed a slight 45 degree angle on top of mold mating surfaces. Went back later and heated mold to 450 and PID to 800 and started getting better bullets............some actually usable, though not perfect yet. The higher the temp the better the fill at this point. Just hate to cast my bullets at that high a temp.
Does no harm. it is still your mold. Hotter lead is still not home in a cold mold. You will get there so hang on.
Worst thing is to give up to lose a lifetime of the best. Once things fall into place you will never make a bad boolit again. For me to say lead at 650 and a mold at 350-NOT!

[Toymaker]

Chris, what's your aversion to higher temperatures? Someone said tin oxidizes at higher temps, which is true. BUT it needs to be exposed to air to get the oxygen to turn into stannous oxide. Even with ladle casting you don't get that much oxidation, and you're using a bottom pour pot.
I cast 200 bullets yesterday, in lots of 100, 50 and 50. The 100 lot was cast at 800°F controlled by a PID. The alloy was 30:1. All bullets, including the extra one cast for hardness testing, were within 0.6 grains (367.3 - 367.9). There were no (0) rejects after the first 5 to heat up the mold. The two lots of 50 were cast at 750°. As normal I reject the first 5 to heat up the mold. The first lot had 2 rejects on weight. The second lot had 5 rejects 2 on weight and 3 on rounded bottoms. The remaining bullets were 366.9 - 367.5 grains.
When I used a bottom pour pot I would get a lot of wrinkles and rounded edges on bullets. It worked well for round ball. I modified the spout by drilling it larger to get a faster pour. That worked. However, I wanted to pressure cast large bullets (405 and 500 grain 0.459's) and holding the mold tight against the spout would cool the stream and the mold would stick, or I'd get a geyser of hot lead spurting toward my hand. So I changed to ladle casting and never looked back.

You said that at 800° your results improve. Take a hint. And get a ladle.

[243winxb]

I modified the spout by drilling it larger to get a faster pour Same on my pot. Plus, on one mould, i opened the sprue hole.

[44man]

I can't bottom pour, tried for years and years. The pot bottom has no heating elements. I do open the holes in my ladles a little, keep them clean of dross, etc.
I make my own molds and none of my sprue plates swing "free."
I cast by holding the ladle TIGHT in the hole without a leak and hold long enough so the boolit shrinking will take molten lead from the ladle, NOT a sprue. My sprue will have no indent from shrinking lead in the mold, just a tiny one from the sprue itself. I never depend on a mold to suck from a sprue that hardens faster then the boolit. You need to FEED the boolit and do not need to pour lead all over.
Put a cake pan under the pot to catch all the slop will NOT make a boolit. The huge sprue is hardened at boolit junction.

[Chris C]

I finally had success with the casting session. Cast about 18 1/2# of what look like good bullets. Closer inspection will tell. I could tell you all the details I went through and changed........and how many times I changed them to get to this point, but suffice it to say I asked the Medicine Man and he said "Silly injun holding tongue wrong". Simple as that! Who said Voo-doo isn't involved? :wink:

[HangFireW8]

Congratulations!

I'm thinking a combination of break-in, venting, and technique. Not saying you had bad technique. Just had to adapt to the new mold, that's all.

[BK7saum]

Sometimes it just works.

[Chris C]

I just did a count and inspection. Had 426 bullets and 44 visible rejects. (pinholes, rounded edges, etc.) I'm sure there will be a whole lot more when I weigh for the bell curve because I noticed I had minor tears on a bunch of bases. Is that caused by cutting the sprue too quickly?

[Geezer in NH]

Hi, Toymaker. I'm casting for a C. Sharps 1885 Highwall in .38-55 and the barrel is a 30" Green Mountain with a 1:14 twist.....verified.

168116

Bore slugs at .3762" .Bore or groove??

[Chris C]

Hmmmmm.................I guess it would be the groove. Don't know how I'd measure the other with a micrometer.

[44man]

Little, little taps to the sprue, not glove cuts on molten lead. Some alloys will jump out to leave a divot, no harm at all.

[Chris C]

Don't know what a "glove cut" is.

[44man]

Don't know what a "glove cut" is.
Guys don't let the sprue get hard and swing the plate with a glove.

[Chris C]

Oh, I get it. Thanks. So wait for the sprue to get hard, right?

[BK7saum]

Not necessarily. It needs to be solid, but I cut the sprue just after it frosts with a gloved hand. Sometimes I wait a few seconds longer to open the mold if I'm getting torn bases. If you're getting torn bases, just wait a little longer to open the mold. Sprue cutting is an independent action.

[Chris C]

????? The sprue cuts the base before the mold is opened..........and opening the mold has nothing to do with a torn base. How can waiting longer to open the mold keep me from getting torn bases?????

[blackthorn]

Quote---"How can waiting longer to open the mold keep me from getting torn bases?????"

Fill--watch--cut--open. All part of a quickly performed action(s). "waiting longer to [open] the mould"--phraseology.

[BK7saum]

????? The sprue cuts the base before the mold is opened..........and opening the mold has nothing to do with a torn base. How can waiting longer to open the mold keep me from getting torn bases?????

I misinterpreted what you had typed. You are talking about the sprue tearing out of the base. I thought you were referring to the rear drive band cracking and trying to pull away. That occurs from opening the mold too early.

You are correct in what you are saying. You should wait longer to cut the sprue, but depending on your alloy, it will either be much harder to cut as it cools or it may still tear out.

My pace in casting is fast and sometimes the rear drive band will crack and pull away/fall off the base of the boolit. That is when I wait longer to open the mold. I still push the sprue plate open with my gloved thumb, just have to wait an extra few seconds to actually open the mold.

Brad

[Chris C]

Whew! Thought I was missing something. Thanks for the clarification. Torn bands is not a problem for me. My bullets come out of the mold whole........if I fill the cavity.