Physical healing in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ.

[johnson1942]

share with us any experiences in physical healings in the name of the Lord jesus Christ or your thoughts on it. thanks before hand.

[GhostHawk]

Ever hear of Reiki? Essentially discovered by a Japanese Monk.

Would love to have a conversation with you, but I would prefer not to have it quite this out in the open.

As to what you are asking, I have 2 I can relate. One with proof, one without.

10 years ago wife came home from her yearly checkup, severely subdued.
Big spot on mamogram in her left breast. Was pretty quiet until the night before her appointment to have a biopsy done.
She was panicking. Now I did not use the Lords name out loud, but I reached up and made a connection, told him the facts, asked for help. Told him I wanted it gone. Now they had marked the spot on her breast with indelible ink to mark the spot. But they kept her there for an hour and a half looking for a lump that did not exist. Even reran the mamogram. No lump, no where.

My wife comes home, shouting "WHAT DID YOU DO? DO YOU KNOW WHAT THEY DID TO ME FOR NEAR 2 HOURS?

Sorry dear, those are my toys, no one takes them away from me.


The other was about 3 years ago, my wife being overweight bought yet another piece of exercise gear, she goes down and gets on it, suddenly is falling off it. I was afraid that I knew what it was. Cholesterol plugged up artery's. I helped her into a chair, while doing so made the connection to my creator, blew the plug, and then was horrified when I figured out what would happen when that plug hit her brain.

All of a sudden it was like I could see it, a big jam of fatty yellow white. In a moment of inspiration I clapped my hands together and commanded "snowstorm" and the plug broke up into a zillion little tiny flakes to small to hurt anything.

For this one I have no proof, but my wife gained health, stamina, and managed to get dedicated enough to lose 50 lbs.

Both of her brothers have had multiple bypass or stints. 5 and 5 I believe. My wife just turned 60 and is still doing fine.
So, no proof, but do I believe? LOL man wouldn't you?

I do think there are sometimes limits, and some things that just are not supposed to be healed.

Last, when I am asking for healing, as with most of my prayers I add, " Not my will, but thine be done Lord"

[Teddy (punchie)]

Interesting thanks for sharing.

[6bg6ga]

I would attribute that to a faulty X-ray. This happens all the time.

[johnson1942]

Ghost Hawk, thank you for your input. it was brave of you to post it all as it is a subject that is going to get pros and cons. i believe you and have no doubt at what you say. you have displayed what is called active faith, you dont sit on your faith, you use it. remember Nepoleon said, mankind will believe anything except if you say its from the bible.

[Blackwater]

I hear claims often and just have to take them at face value. I'm hooked on believing reason and rationality, even though I know the supernatural does NOT have to follow that all the time. I never affirm what I can't nor deny what I hear just because I don't understand it. Some things, I think we just have to take under advisement, and those brave enough to speak of these things have my thanks. If nothing else, it's another reminder that the supernatural CAN work in whatever way it wishes to. What makes it credible is the fact that God may have required him to DO something himself in order for a miracle to have been performed. I think He often does this to us, and wants US to have some sort of part in achieving what we ask for, rather than always handing everything to us on a silver platter. Why not a simple clap of the hands, as an act of faith?

The whole truth about miracles are that they're things that rationally just can't happen, but nevertheless DO. Those of us who had no part in it may have rational doubt, but we need to understand the infinite ability of the immortal as well, if we're to keep a balanced and valid perspective. That's my view, anyway.

[Blackwater]

In answer to the OP, my kidneys failed, and I nearly died. Caught me totally by surprise. A very good local kidney doc saved my life, but I was on dialysis for a few months, and had resigned myself to live off the machines for the rest of my life. But after a few weeks of dialysis, my head dialysis nurse said she was going to get my kidneys working again! I'd been asking the Lord to release me from those machines, so this hit me like a 2x4 between the eyes. And sure enough, they did in fact get my kidneys working again. I did exactly what they told me to, and had at least 5 churches praying for me and a crowd of individuals, and I've been off dialysis for several years now. Prayer works. I've seen it too often.

One other incident that fits here well is when my wife's grandpa was in the hospital, a smaller county hospital with little life-saving machinery. "Doc" as her grandad was called, was in his 80's, and weak, and was bleeding internally, and the doctors couldn't get it stopped, so they called the family in and told us all there didn't appear to be any chance Doc was going to survive, and he might go at any time. The preacher at the relatively tiny little country church was an old man who didn't have quite a full high school education, but was a man of as great a Faith as I have ever known. He took Auby, Doc's son and my FIL aside, and told him that he could stop the bleeding, but he'd have to be in the room with Doc alone for a few minutes. Auby agreed, and arranged it. The preacher went in, and when he came out, he declared with all the off the cuff surety of saying Doc was still in the room, he said, "He'll be OK now."

And sure enough, only a bare few minutes after that, the nurses called the docs to the room and found the bleeding HAD stopped! Was it something the doctors did? Or was it the prayer? Rationalists will say it was natural. I saw the preacher tell Auby that it was going to be OK, and there was something not quite natural about the way he said it that I noted at the time, and just dismissed until I was told about the conversation Auby and the preacher had had some time later. That's when the feeling I got when the preacher came out and said "He'll be OK now," made sense. I believe we can FEEL the Holy Spirit when it's in our presence. I've seen other instances of this nature. If we're open to feeling it, I think it simply can't be missed. It's something other than what we normally experience in this realm, I know THAT for SURE.

Miracles do indeed still happen. Whether we are open to recognizing them is the only thing that varies. Even the most obvious of miracles, like Christ raising the dead, and arising himself, are denied quite regularly. And at the same time, some seem to think everything that happens is a miracle. I think miracles are exceptions to the general rules of our universe, but they DO indeed happen. I've seen them too many times to have missed them all. That a man like me can have seen as many as I have is very humbling, but I've always tried to notice everything I could, whether I understood it right then or not. Sometimes things have to take a while to seep into my brain, so I've long come to just notice things that most take for granted, and let them sink in as they may.

But mostly, it's that eerie feeling that you get, like when the preacher came out and stated affirmatively and confidently, "He'll be OK now," that makes me believe in many of the miracles I've seen. It's as though we sense what's really happening without fully understanding it. It's scary the first few times one experiences it, or allows ourselves to, but it becomes much more poignant as things progress. If there's a supernatural, how could it NOT cause effects within and upon us that we can't explain, and can only sense?

[johnson1942]

thanks

[GhostHawk]

6bg6ga Ok, we each have the choice, the free will to believe as we choose.

But let me ask you this question.

If it was your wifes breast, and you could feel the lump. (small grape sized)
And you felt something out of the ordinary, and the lump which you plainly felt one day was not there the next. Do you still think you would blame the x-ray?

I am a big believer in the power of prayer, I have seen it work both on me and on others.

If you want to think I'm tetched, crazy, moonstruck, or however you choose to put it that is fine. Your life, your choice. You won't hear me put you down for it.

It is indeed a sensitive subject, and I would like to thank Johnson1942 for posting it.
My lord has been after me to "tell the story" and this is one way of doing so.

To God be the glory!

[6bg6ga]

I'm sorry but I am a doubter. I worked along side a lady years ago that had the belief that her car started one time without a battery just because she prayed. Logic would dictate that the starter isn't going to turn without a battery. You simply are not going to pull 12 volts and 300CCA out of thin air. She firmly believed the car started on its own and upon arriving at her location her husband opened the hood only to find no battery there. The logical answer is that her battery was there and simply fell out. If it gives you comfort then believe with all your heart but I will continue to believe in simple logic and that would tell me if there was a lump it isn't going to go away in an instant.

[johnson1942]

6b6g6ga, i respect your train of thought, however i and others have seen and witnessed things that cant be explained by logic. we are not forcing these things we have seen and witnessed on anyone. we are just reporting them. i have had countless experiences in things like this, too many to put down here. when one accepts christ as their savior that is truly blind faith and trust. after that it is all living faith. if it wasnt living active faith it would hard to stay a christian as blind faith goes just so far. ever since i was 16 years old i have seen and witnessed things that are beyond logic and reason of this world. im not a wierd cultist, im a christian who practices his faith but not in a intrusive way. im 73 years old and had two different careers in my life. also a lot of college. the one constant thing in my life has been God and his Son. with out them i wouldnt be here now. ive had bullets go by my ears, between my legs, hit the vehicle i was in. if it wasnt for God and his Son i wouldnt be here. all seven of my children respect God and His son and have active faiths, not blind faiths. you do not have to be sorry for being a doubter, if you saw what ive seen and others you wouldnt be. you never know. seeking is one of the answers to all this. as for the story of the no battery, i could tell ones that were real more unbeliveable than that one. we are not out to hurt anyone here, just shareing.

[Hickok]

Jesus is the same, yesterday, today and tomorrow. He changes not. All things are possible with God.

[nagantguy]

When God directly intervenes in a situation it is called a miracle, do they happen, yes, do I believe in them , yes, did Jesus preform them routinely at will, yes, no reason to think they can't happen as they do all the time. We are going to listen to a youth pastor tomorrow that was rendered sterile by chemo years ago, the sperm they froze was not properly handled and was unviable , while he and his wife were looking into adoption she became pregnant, the child is his, they had twins last year also his, I know this man's uncle, he is a long time family friend, my grandmother was his Sunday school teacher my grandfather his choir teacher, I've been on the inside of this story for a long time, 100%true.
I have also seen my grandmother, a women of Job like faith pray a storm away, in an instant, not blow over not a just a quick storm, but the clouds literally burst, the wind died the rain stopped, right now, .
As for skeptics and frauds, I never bash the skeptical mind, unfortunately frauds, fakes, charlatans, and liars abound, we have a cousin, scam artist extordinare whom claims to heal with laying of his hand and hearing the voice of God and being a very very holy man.....we call him the leper messiah, I won't be around nor have anything to do with him....it's funny another man we know whom lies cheats and steals, he'd done all three to us and others we know, thinks our cousin is a walking talking John the Baptist, funny that, people seem to find their own level don't they?

[6bg6ga]

I can respect what your saying. You believe you have either been a part of a miracle or witnessed one. Maybe I would believe also its just that I requre a little more proof scientific proof before I'm ready to clap my hands together and shout Hallelujah.

[Blackwater]

I also respect your view 6bg, but if you want proof that the universe we live in is not strictly deterministic, check into quantum physics. In that study, there are many unexplainable and contradictory things observed literally thousands of times. Check out Gerald Schroeder's book, "The Science of God." I just got through reading it, and it presents a lot of reasons to believe in God, and if there's a God, then why couldn't or shouldn't He intervene in His creation at times? Toward the back, he gets into just what you have questions about - whether our universe is strictly deterministic (based on cause and effect) or whether there's more to it than just strictly that. He at least opens the door, if you care to enter it, to the very real and objective possibility that things CAN transcend anything we can identify as reasonable and logical, and in fact, gives rise to great and legitimate question as to whether our universe is strictly deterministic or not. It simply isn't, at least at all levels. Sure, most of our world is based on cause and effect, but not ALL of it, and it's demonstrable. Get the book and give it a good read. I read it slowly so it'd sink in, and went back often and re-read many parts until I felt I understood it, and occasionally just to fix it in my mind because it was so poignant and illustrative. It's an easy, pleasant read, too. He keeps things on a level that most laymen with a decent understanding of the basic sciences can understand all the points he makes. Even the ones we may not quite "get" fully, he makes pretty clear at least at the level of principle. I think it might open the door for you.

Science has, over the last 30-40 years, been making discoveries and conducting proofs of many things that tend VERY strongly to indicate that there MUST be a real and legitimate and loving God that had a very strong hand in Creation from the Big Bang onward. And it KEEPS progressing toward that. I sometimes wonder, given the unrest and disbelief and abandonment of good and genuinely Christian and moral principles that seems to pervade our world today, whether all this is being given to us so that even the most devout disbeliever might come to the light, before it is all closed down. It's worth a look for you, I think, at the very least. If our world is indeed based on cause and effect, at the very least, we all need to know what portions of it is NOT so based, and where these anomalies are, and if possible, what they seem to mean or where they indicate the ultimate causes really lie. It's VERY interesting once you get into it.

One other thing I've noticed is that most folks come to belief more or less by intuition, or that simple sense we seem to have to "feel" God's presence, even though we can't understand it. But give those same people some real and concrete and concretely demonstrable REASONS to believe, and their Faith grows exponentially. It quickly becomes a real and valid conviction rather than a mere sense or belief. Once we KNOW that there really ARE good and valid REASONS to believe, it simply solidifies all that we've previously sensed and felt. But in the end, it's always got to be simple Faith that carries us across the threshold into real belief. But science can take us, if we but investigate it sincerely, right up to the threshold of the door of belief. All we have to do is simply let it in. It's not something we can reach out and grab just because we want to, nor a simple willful self-delusion, but Faith HAS to be based on a very real, if not always explainable, EXPERIENCE. And knowledge is, in a way, experience. It's like a snowplow making a path to us for belief in a very snowy world, stacked deep with the snow of all sorts of rationales for dis-belief.

We're not separated by believers and dis-believers so much as we are by those who accept and those who turn away. We live in a world that is MUCH more complex and astonishing than the deniers will allow us to accept, but it's a very real world that's literally full of reasons to believe, if we're but simply open to seeing what's really there, and not toward denying everything we can. That's my take on it all, anyway. Hope you get and enjoy the book. It's one of those that pretty well has to change one's view of science and belief, and that's a powerful and significant thing for all of us, believers and non-believers alike. The only caution I'd give is you have to be open to what he'll give you. Folks who read it like it was a target to throw all sorts of questions at will obviously not get much out of it, but that's simply because they never wanted to to start with. The old "self fulfilling prophesy" coming into play. But it's too enjoyable and interesting not to give it an honest read. I believe that at the very least, you'll be glad you read it. Plus, it's pretty cheap as books go these days, too, which is always nice.

[johnson1942]

i have to share one of the many i saw and partisapated in. about 12 years ago as a home health nurse on pine ridge reservation i was going to a very remote part of the rez to visit some patients. when i was going past wounded knee a strange thing happened. a tornado appeared off to the north west and it was big and strong and on the ground and coming down the wounded knee valley toward all of us. no body moved and we all were nervous and wondering what to do. it hailed hard also but fine soft hail so no car damage. well i kept looking at that funnel and finally when it was still coming i said this father, in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ by the finger of your right hand get rid of that thing. the very split second i said that thing the funnel exploded like their was a mega bomb in it and it was instantly gone. seeing was believing. i saw it, prayed and God took care of it. also one more off many. i was working er when a cardiac arrest came in. i and a little female nurse got him out of his pickup and i still dont know how we got him on the gurney as he was 6 foot 6 and weighted about 325 or 350. a very big rich rancher. his wallet was so thick with money it must have hurt to sit on it. we started a code with the best dr. in the hosp. in charge. he got all done to him that needed to bring him back but it wasnt working. the dr. is very stubborn and hates to lose anyone. finally we knew we were all going to have to quit as we zapped him more than required to declare him dead. as the paddles were getting ready for the last time and their was no hope i said under by breath, satan, in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ take your hand off of this man. the paddles when to his chest, bonk they went, and instantly he sat up and said in a loud voice, dont ever do that again, that really hurts. we all about fainted. he went upstairs and was released the next day. he was so big of a man another husky built male nurse had to stand at the end of the gurney and put one leg on each shoulder so the big patient could stay on the gurney. i know God took over and satan left, and the man lived. christians can take over with prayer in the Name of the Lord jesus Christ and it is real and it is true. if this keeps going in a positive way i will share more of these kind of things, ive seen many and experienced many. God is real, and he cares.

[w5pv]

I had an embolism that nearly put me under but by the grace of God and a lot of prayers we made it through the worst of it.

[Blackwater]

I know many will doubt you, Johnson, but I don't. I have no particular insight, but I've seen enough to kind'a at least, suspect that it's often how truly and deeply earnest and completely that we pray that may, at least at times, determine whether God grants us our prayers. That's a question, not a real answer, but it's one worthy of consideration, I think. God isn't limited to responding to only one thing on our parts, I'm sure, but this one seems to, over time, be something that I've noticed through many years of just trying to keep being observant, even if not always understanding what I see.

I've long noticed that there are times when we seem, for whatever reason or combination of reasons, really truly dig deep down inside ourselves when we render what may be a very simple prayer.

Once when I was pretty young, I think it was when I was in elementary school, Dad was having a hard time, and was very concerned and it was weighing heavily on him. We were at some sort of carnival or event, and there was a drawing for some door prizes. One of them was something (I forget what it even was now) that I knew Dad would like to get. I simply and silently prayed that God would let Dad win the thing, and just seconds later, they drew his name. It caught him very much by surprise since he'd said moments before, "Ah, I never win anything." And it did, in fact, brighten his attitude considerably, even though it wasn't a very big deal. I think he took it as a sign from God. And I think it was.

How God goes about electing who he'll do these things for I can't know, but I know we always have the right and opportunity to ask for His blessing and even a miracle. And I do know that miracles really do happen, too, and it's not just because I WANT to believe, it's because I've seen too much too many times to think or believe otherwise. We "moderns" have grown very callous, and don't really pay attention very well, in the hustle and bustle of our everyday "modern" lives, but if and when we do, it's not difficult at all to see many, many things that we've been missing for years, if not lifetimes.

Miracles are real. And the reasons they're not more common is because, I think, God very generally prefers to work within the rules He set up for us at the Creation. But he WILL do things in defiance thereof if and when we can find it in us to be truly devout when we ask, sincere to the marrow of our bones, and righteous in our reasons and motivations for asking. His power will never be limited to or by only what He's created here. That just seems to be obvious, though may WANT to deny it, and do. But it's FAR from irrational to believe in miracles once you've seen a genuine one. Things like the car starting without a battery really challenge and stretch our ability to comprehend things of this nature, but impossible? Not for God. He's proved his power too many times for too many people in too many ways. If He can raise people and himself from the dead, starting an engine without a battery would probably be child's play for Him, even if it DOES strain our little brains to try to accept such things. And there ARE "crazy people" who DO bandy about wild claims. But that doesn't mean real miracles don't occur. We know sleight of hand can produce "magic" for magicians, but real miracles have ZERO trickery in them. They're simply answers to our genuine, devout prayers. And we don't get everything we pray for. That would make God some "big Sugar Daddy in the Sky," and that's never been what He was or ever intended to be. He's our Father. He loves us, and wants us to prosper and be happy, and if we'd just take His advice, and do His will, we'd actually BE happy and prosperous. We just all too often take another path, and THAT is what almost always leads us to UNhappiness, whenever we go our own way instead of following what we know good and well we OUGHT to be the way we SHOULD go.

It's really pretty simple: Follow God and be happy, no matter what comes or goes, or follow our own will and likely as not, Satan's, and we wind up confused, frustrated in all our efforts, and UNhappy no matter what kind of material goods we might acquire. And examples of this are all around us. All we have to do is just pay attention. And if we really pay attention, we WILL, almost certainly, see many miracles - more than we'd ever imagine before seeing the number that happen. It's as though scales were literally lifted from our eyes, and we're ABLE to see things that before, we'd have missed entirely. Yet more evidence, I think, of the True Power of God. But I I don't think there's any direction we COULD look and not see miracles and proofs of God and Christ. It's really just a matter of whether we'll ALLOW ourselves to see it, or whether we lasso it, and rein it in lest we also come to belief. One has to, I think, be genuinely antagonistic toward belief to NOT come to the light. That's just what it looks like from here, with my perspective, anyway. I am so humbled by it all that .... well, it almost scares me sometimes, if I weren't so glad to be granted the simple ability and blessing of seeing these things. When one truly comes to understand, or at least have some concept of just how big and great and powerful and Holy God truly is, it's something one can NEVER forget. NEVER.

[6bg6ga]

Gentlemen I guess I am prayed out. At one time I had faith but have lost it watching my wife battle something that the Dr's don't seem to be able to give us a straight answer on. She woke up one morning with 1/2 her body numb. They did MRI'S to the tune of thousands of dollars out of pocket and we have no answers.

[johnson1942]

let some one else do the praying. find some one or members here can do it.

[GhostHawk]

I'll add one more of a slightly different note.

I grew up on a farm, Dad's place was not big, 540 acres he owned free and clear.

By the time I was old enough to start being a help running combine or driving trucks I would consistently see something that seemed strange to me.

Now Dad he believed the Lord helps those who help themselves, and that means not getting behind in your labors. So year after year we would be in the middle of our harvest, and he would hear of a neighbor laid up through no fault of his own. Sick, in hospital, unable to get his harvest in. Dad would give us a stern talking to, we were going to be on someone elses place, no skylarking, no not paying attention. We were to be on the bounce, paying attention and giving it our best.

Then he would take the combine, we'd drive the trucks over. We would pull in the yard, which field, where to take the grain, and away we would go. Mind you dinner was at 12, we would be harvesting by 1 or shortly after. By 2 we would start seeing help arrive. Dad would be running the show, meeting people as they came, clueing them in. Managing the trucks, and seeing that all went smooth. Normally one day or a day and a half would see all their harvest in the bin or the Elevator. Then we would go back to our work.

There were few years there where someone did not need a hand.

Then I started seeing a pattern. The morning after we would finish harvest. We would wake to the sound of rain, and it would rain for a week or a month.

So I asked dad once, knowing that the rains might come, how can you leave our work and help the neighbor?

Dad Laughed, Do you really think that after doing the Lords bidding, stopping my work and going to help a neighbor, that the Lord is then going to turn around and punish me?

Dad lived in the Lords hip pocket, and we had a couple of years when the rains came early, and we lost some. But even those years we lost less than most. And as long as dad went when called, all smiled upon us. And I believe he was called. Either that or he could judge the dryness of field 3 miles off knowing when it would be ready to harvest. Which is also possible.

I firmly believe that it is not enough to believe, we have to do his work.
We are the Lords hands. We are his mysterious ways. And I believe he rewards those that do that work.

BTW Dad is 92 now, had a stroke and a heart attack last november. But he is still sharp. Is back up walking on his own. Even now, he is watched over. That and the power of prayer.

[nagantguy]

I'll add one more of a slightly different note.

I grew up on a farm, Dad's place was not big, 540 acres he owned free and clear.

By the time I was old enough to start being a help running combine or driving trucks I would consistently see something that seemed strange to me.

Now Dad he believed the Lord helps those who help themselves, and that means not getting behind in your labors. So year after year we would be in the middle of our harvest, and he would hear of a neighbor laid up through no fault of his own. Sick, in hospital, unable to get his harvest in. Dad would give us a stern talking to, we were going to be on someone elses place, no skylarking, no not paying attention. We were to be on the bounce, paying attention and giving it our best.

Then he would take the combine, we'd drive the trucks over. We would pull in the yard, which field, where to take the grain, and away we would go. Mind you dinner was at 12, we would be harvesting by 1 or shortly after. By 2 we would start seeing help arrive. Dad would be running the show, meeting people as they came, clueing them in. Managing the trucks, and seeing that all went smooth. Normally one day or a day and a half would see all their harvest in the bin or the Elevator. Then we would go back to our work.

There were few years there where someone did not need a hand.

Then I started seeing a pattern. The morning after we would finish harvest. We would wake to the sound of rain, and it would rain for a week or a month.

So I asked dad once, knowing that the rains might come, how can you leave our work and help the neighbor?

Dad Laughed, Do you really think that after doing the Lords bidding, stopping my work and going to help a neighbor, that the Lord is then going to turn around and punish me?

Dad lived in the Lords hip pocket, and we had a couple of years when the rains came early, and we lost some. But even those years we lost less than most. And as long as dad went when called, all smiled upon us. And I believe he was called. Either that or he could judge the dryness of field 3 miles off knowing when it would be ready to harvest. Which is also possible.

I firmly believe that it is not enough to believe, we have to do his work.
We are the Lords hands. We are his mysterious ways. And I believe he rewards those that do that work.

BTW Dad is 92 now, had a stroke and a heart attack last november. But he is still sharp. Is back up walking on his own. Even now, he is watched over. That and the power of prayer.

What a great story, thank you for sharing! Your dad sounds like a great man, a great neighbor and a good father! HE was not joking when he said "love thy neighbor" I do not claim to be a good man, I try, I do not claim to be a model Christian but I do try. I will however drop almost anything and go help a friend, neighbor, family can't tell you the amount of times we've been late getting some where cause I stopped to help someone broke down, this is not bragging nor look at me I'm good, it's bow I was raised, it's how mom and dad were. When my grateful grandpa died, he was a farmer, horse rancher, horse whisperer, heavy equipment operator, hunter, leather worker, all around stand up guy. Anyhow at his funeral scores of people showed to pay respect and tell of some thing he'd done to help them, some we didn't even know, a few we knew grandpa didn't like, but he'd help them any how, money time, work plowing jarvesting, witnessing the word of God, breaking horses, whatever, he even took in several folks who didn't have a place to.stay, the only thing bad that happened was one fellow whom grandpa let stay in the camper stole a cat when he moved on.......my great grandparents went to a very small church and I'll tell you this, there was not one child in their flock that ever went without boots, winter coat, or a full belly. I've fallen far from the mark but when I see him in heaven I hope he won't be to disappointed in me!

[johnson1942]

uplifting, thanks. i know what Ghost Hawk is talking about when he talks about water and the problems when their is too much at the wrong time. my sister and her husband farm just a few miles from where Ghost hawks dad did and they always have water problems in the spring and fall. too much of it. this is one of the first years they got their crop in with out too much water. thanks again for the up lifting stories every one.

[spotsboss]

Before Jesus said goodbye and ascended into heaven, He promised His followers that He would send Someone to take His place. Someone who would live in their hearts. He called Him the Comforter. We now know that Jesus was referring to the person of the Holy Spirit.

To need a comforter, it is assumed that you have an affliction or difficulty of some sort. So Jesus didn’t promise to take us out of affliction, but that He would be with us in it.

God did not spare His own son from suffering. He was murdered by an angry mob. At the time, only God knew that His purpose in the cross was the redemption of mankind. Ultimate good would come out of ultimate evil. He often gives us the opportunity to do the same thing in our own lives.

He didn’t spare St. Paul from his illness and the same has been true for millions of godly people throughout history.

Why? Can’t God heal if He wants to? Yes, but not if He can be glorified in a higher way. As someone with cancer myself, I can tell you that illness can bring you closer to God and give you the opportunity to trust Him deeply and thereby grow to be more like Him.

He may heal you, but if He doesn’t, maybe it’s because He wants you, in your illness, to model patience, courage and faith to those around you. Or because your family can learn care giving in a deeper way or develop a spirit of cheer and quiet serenity, all through your adversity.

Sometimes all we know, and this is enough to know, is that because of the cross God understands our suffering and through the Comforter He has promised to be with us always.

[nagantguy]

I'll add one more of a slightly different note.

I grew up on a farm, Dad's place was not big, 540 acres he owned free and clear.

By the time I was old enough to start being a help running combine or driving trucks I would consistently see something that seemed strange to me.

Now Dad he believed the Lord helps those who help themselves, and that means not getting behind in your labors. So year after year we would be in the middle of our harvest, and he would hear of a neighbor laid up through no fault of his own. Sick, in hospital, unable to get his harvest in. Dad would give us a stern talking to, we were going to be on someone elses place, no skylarking, no not paying attention. We were to be on the bounce, paying attention and giving it our best.

Then he would take the combine, we'd drive the trucks over. We would pull in the yard, which field, where to take the grain, and away we would go. Mind you dinner was at 12, we would be harvesting by 1 or shortly after. By 2 we would start seeing help arrive. Dad would be running the show, meeting people as they came, clueing them in. Managing the trucks, and seeing that all went smooth. Normally one day or a day and a half would see all their harvest in the bin or the Elevator. Then we would go back to our work.

There were few years there where someone did not need a hand.

Then I started seeing a pattern. The morning after we would finish harvest. We would wake to the sound of rain, and it would rain for a week or a month.

So I asked dad once, knowing that the rains might come, how can you leave our work and help the neighbor?

Dad Laughed, Do you really think that after doing the Lords bidding, stopping my work and going to help a neighbor, that the Lord is then going to turn around and punish me?

Dad lived in the Lords hip pocket, and we had a couple of years when the rains came early, and we lost some. But even those years we lost less than most. And as long as dad went when called, all smiled upon us. And I believe he was called. Either that or he could judge the dryness of field 3 miles off knowing when it would be ready to harvest. Which is also possible.

I firmly believe that it is not enough to believe, we have to do his work.
We are the Lords hands. We are his mysterious ways. And I believe he rewards those that do that work.

BTW Dad is 92 now, had a stroke and a heart attack last november. But he is still sharp. Is back up walking on his own. Even now, he is watched over. That and the power of prayer.

What a great story, thank you for sharing! Your dad sounds like a great man, a great neighbor and a good father! HE was not joking when he said "love thy neighbor" I do not claim to be a good man, I try, I do not claim to be a model Christian but I do try. I will however drop almost anything and go help a friend, neighbor, family can't tell you the amount of times we've been late getting some where cause I stopped to help someone broke down, this is not bragging nor look at me I'm good, it's bow I was raised, it's how mom and dad were. When my grateful grandpa died, he was a farmer, horse rancher, horse whisperer, heavy equipment operator, hunter, leather worker, all around stand up guy. Anyhow at his funeral scores of people showed to pay respect and tell of some thing he'd done to help them, some we didn't even know, a few we knew grandpa didn't like, but he'd help them any how, money time, work plowing jarvesting, witnessing the word of God, breaking horses, whatever, he even took in several folks who didn't have a place to.stay, the only thing bad that happened was one fellow whom grandpa let stay in the camper stole a cat when he moved on.......my great grandparents went to a very small church and I'll tell you this, there was not one child in their flock that ever went without boots, winter coat, or a full belly. I've fallen far from the mark but when I see him in heaven I hope he won't be to disappointed in me!

[Blackwater]

6bg, I understand your predicament, but I think the problem really lies in your view of what God really is. He said he'd cause it to rain on the just and the unjust alike. He never said he's only reward the righteous, or that the righteous wouldn't suffer sometimes. That would make him like some giant cash cow that we only go to for cash when we need it, and His aim was to be much more than some simple, finite bank to enable us to seek our own wills. He gives the righteous problems in order that they might have an opportunity to demonstrate their faith and its real value in times of troubles. This often touches even the hearts of disbelievers, when they see the real power and value of belief and prayer. He created the world with poisons, but he also provides the antidotes. Apparently, He wants our faith to be REAL and genuine, and not just some seeking for reward. Look at the trials Job faced. And Lucifer was extatic at it, until he saw that Job maintained his faith.

Very simply, there CANNOT be a reward for belief. This prevents belief from becoming a simple "payoff," which would reduce faith to something besides the real thing. God doesn't seem to think very highly of immitations. You're being tested, just like we all are, and therein, you have an opportunity to show others and yourself just how strong and valuable and irreplacable faith really and truly is, or at least can be IF we'll but demonstrate it.

If you come to faith for a payoff, you're looking for the wring thing. There's no payoff but death for us all in this realm. After that, though, there's eternity, and how we perform and the decisions we make with our very free will, determine how that eternity will be spent. It all makes sense if we can just drop our view of God as something more human than truly Godly. God is most emphatically NOT so terribly limited as we humans are. He is so far beyond that that I doubt we can conceive of just how great and all-powerful He really is.

Keep your faith brother. It's in these times of need that we need them most. If you keep your head straight, this could be the most poignant and instructive and elucidating period of your whole life. It sure can't hurt to give it a chance.

Sometimes people get angry with God when they encounter problems in life that really test them severely. That's a very human reaction, but being human makes it less than what we Christians are charged with being. We're supposed to recognize our position in the universe and in eternity, and bear whatever life brings us. He gave us DNA and all sorts of things so that we might exist, but in that existence, things happen that make things hard to bear. But we've had life, and a simple OPPORTUNITY to demonstrate just how deeply our faith extends. Why and how it all works has been debated by all manner of people for millenea now, and I can't pretend to give you the answer to all that here and now. What I CAN offer you is the simple truth that these times you're going through with your wife are the very ones that CAN, if we simply view them rightly, and without haughtiness or hubris, be the most poignant and significant things that ever occur in our lives. They can and sometimes do, transform people from casual believers into REAL believers. And most of it is dependent on our simple attitude toward it all. If we approach it with haughtiness, hubris and a sense of "entitlement," then we err, and things will never be "right" again. If we approach them with humility, knowing that if we all got what we DESERVED, we'd likely never have had even an opportunity at life, and all the good things and pleasures we've known. You'd never have had the chance to love your wife even one minute because you'd never have existed had Christ not died on the cross in your and my and all our steads.

I know that's not how we humans would have done things, but that's why we CAN'T have those powers. We don't have the wisdom God does, and would make a mess of it, just like we've done in this world that we already have. So don't lose your faith, but keep it even tighter. It's all we really have in this life to truly hold onto when the bad times come, and be assured, they come to all of us. But when they do, that's no time to abandon our only real solace. I know a number of folks who've met the same type of thing you're going through, and they've been of all ages, from young to old. Only the ones who kept their faith, and strengthened it through these times of trial came out better. Those who abandoned their faith lived very bitter, joyless lives. I think even a blind man could see that abandoning our faith just isn't the way we need to go when we encounter trials.

On the ball fields, we admire the player who, though tried sorely, maybe by a bigger, stronger opposition, sets himself to the task of winning, and figures out a way to make those "advantages" meaningless. In other fields of life, we forget that simple principle, and often justify and rationalize abandonment of faith, when it's the greatest asset any of us will ever possess, and all we have to do is simply do a little work and searching in the Bible for our reasons to continuing to believe and trust. Who knows what lies ahead for you and your wife? Certainly not me nor you, nor anyone. And in all the possibilities that might come from your situation, who's to say that they might not wind up being positive for both of you?

It's taken me a lot of years to realize this, but death, whenever it comes to any of us, is NOT our enemy. It's just a transition from this world to the next, more unlimited and all-encompassing realm. Many who've died and returned say they are no longer in the least afraid of death, but almost look forward to that transition. And neither you nor I or anyone else, including the docs, really KNOW what's going to happen. I don't know your age or experience, but I've always had a lot of older friends who I loved and talked with often. When these have faced trials, they did so stoically, and their faith saw them through, or helped them across the threshold between this life and the next. I could never cry at these funerals when it was the latter. It just seemed so inappropriate, even though I knew I'd miss them greatly. This included my Mom and Dad, too, BTW.

Faith will see you through ANYTHING, if you just let it, and it CAN, at least sometimes, change things through simple prayer. If you abandon your faith, or pray in your doubts, you lose that option, I think. I think it's pretty obvious. God can't hear prayers offered with doubt and distrust. But pray earnestly and honestly in full belief, even if it's in desperation, and He'll hear you. What He does depends on way too many things than we can know in our limited and very finite realm, but whatever answer you get, it'll be truly righteous. If you can't or don't or won't understand it as such, that's your error, and a mere assumption. It's like a problem child pitching a fit and saying "I'm gonna' hold my breath 'till I turn blue," when he doesn't get what he wants. Life's just not like that, and I think if you simply look around, you'll see that. But you have to be honest, and detached enough from what you WANT, to see what's THERE, and REAL.

I wish you and your wife well, and I think we'll all be praying for both of you. May God bless you at all times in your life, and help you to realize just what blessings can be, when they come in disguise. Keep the faith. You can't truly know joy without it.

[GhostHawk]

I am sure you all have heard the phrase "Pillar of the Community"

That is my dad. He ran for the school board when he heard his neighbor was running, and intended to close our school and move us 8 miles to a bigger town. Dad ran saying lets build an addition, a decent gym, shop, science, and home-econ classrooms and an office. He won, hands down, 2 years later the addition was built and moved into. We kept our school for another 30 years. Dad served until his children were all through school then quietly retired. Tapping a neighbor to pick up the torch.

He was a driving force on the local fire fighters, always pushing for better facility's, equipment, more training. He pushed the building of a town hall/firehouse, he and others spent all winter cutting and nailing rafters.

Dad and I did the leveling of the firehall floor so all would run to a central drain. And he did it with an eyeball and his chin leaning on a shovel. He would use the horizon line for his level, then each stake got my shovel put on top and he would direct my fingers up and down. I count it to my credit that I spent 2 days nailing plywood and shingling that roof. Since then it has been used for weddings, celebrations of all kinds.

The local grocery store was having problems making ends meet. Dad wrote a 100 dollar check. Let me know when it is gone, I'll write another. In the days when a coke was a nickle.

He was a pillar of his church as well. Many times he was urged to join the local luthern church just down the street. No, best we stay seperate, not favoring one side or the other. So we drove 8 miles every sunday to a Methodist Church where he was a trustee for decades.

It is hard to see the Mighty men like him fade and disappear from the small towns and villages.
They leave a mighty big hole.

Dad would probably be upset if he knew I was talking about him. He retired from farming near 30 years ago. He had half a dozen people approach him offering more rent than he was asking. He turned them all down. He offered it to a pair of brothers a bit younger than me. The only explanation he ever made was "I like the way they take care of the land"

John Wesley Jamison the Lord does not make them like you anymore.
Ok Lord, I'm telling the story. Doing it my way. Probably all bassackwards and twitchy.

First be a man, set your feet, honest, level and true.
Then add faith like a rock, unshakable, unbreakable.
Be responsible for the choices you make, OWN them.
Remember why we are here, LOVE!

[jcwit]

I'm 72,when I was 13 I had polio, my mother was told I would not live thru the night. She sat out side my room I was told and prayed all night till my fevor broke and I lived.

A week or so later I was told I'd never walk again, I spent 6 or 8 years in the military with no problems.

Fifteen years ago I came down with cancer, was told I had a 25 to 30% chanch of living, here I am, still here.

Now try to convince me that prayer does't work!

[johnson1942]

thank you jcwit, that was a good post.

[Blackwater]

Thanks, guys, for some excellent and very poignant posts. Your stories are very much appreciated. And Ghosthawk, that's how a lot of men used to be, all over the country. The Great Depression pretty well taught folks that they HAD to be worthy and true to their word. Even then, many vascillated and failed, but pretty much all of them knew they'd failed, and didn't try very hard to deny it. Today, though, most folks seem to be very much into denying they've erred even when it's so clear and plain that it's unmistakable. I guess PC theology dictates that the REAL sin is in admitting when we err? Of course, that's in direct opposition of what Christ bade us do - confess our sins and errors - but PC theology is pretty much the reverse of what Christ advised us to do if we wanted to have joy in our lives. Ain't it funny how that works? And we wonder why things don't go any better than they do!

[6bg6ga]

I'm 72,when I was 13 I had polio, my mother was told I would not live thru the night. She sat out side my room I was told and prayed all night till my fevor broke and I lived.A week or so later I was told I'd never walk again, I spent 6 or 8 years in the military with no problems.Fifteen years ago I came down with cancer, was told I had a 25 to 30% chanch of living, here I am, still here.Now try to convince me that prayer does't work!Let me guess......when you had cancer you were never treated with any drugs. I'm going to pray tonight for a full head of hair. Maybe if I pray all night I'll end up with enough so you don't see my balding head. I too was sick when I was young and had a fever of 104 and it was climbing. I prayed and so did my mother but I give credit for the shot in the butt I got.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

I'm going to participate in this thread to keep a promise. The promise was made to God, that I would always tell this story of how he helped me, and subsequently my wife, if asked. I guess this thread is a request to tell that story, one that I could easily ignore. No one likes to be ridiculed or criticized for their beliefs. But I have to keep my word.

I was an extremely healthy person most of my life. When I arrived at age 67 I awoke one morning with pains in my left shoulder. I thought that it was probably the result of sleeping on it, as I prefer to sleep with my arm out and a pillow between my head and shoulder. Over the next few days it didn't go away and I just slept on the right side. Then the pain progressed to my neck, first at the base and then went upward. Then I developed marble sized lumps on the back of my head and neck which were probably infected lymph nodes. Then the pain progressed over to the right shoulder, so that I wasn't able to sleep on either side or on my back. I started sleeping sitting up. I consulted the local M.D. who took some blood samples and who told me, "You have an unknown internal infection. Something is killing all of your white blood corpuscles as soon as your body produces them, and you're losing." He referred me to an oncologist. I saw the oncologist every few days and he'd have 5 to 7 vials of blood taken. The news was always the same, "I don't know what's wrong with you, but you don't have"...a long list of maladies. They gave me every test they could think of, various scans and trips through tunnels, etc. I asked them for antibiotics, anything that might help. The answer was always the same, "We don't know what's wrong with you, so we can't treat you." They did nothing for me except draw blood time after time. I grew weaker by the day, and the night finally came when I went to bed, about 6:00 p.m. actually, and I knew that I was going to die. Before I got into bed I said, to God, "Sir, I know you're busy, and I know that I prayed about this to you before, but I wanted to remind you how bad off I am, and just say respectfully that if you're going to help me it should be tonight because I don't think I'll be around in the morning." I passed out, went to sleep, became unconscious, knew nothing. Then, at about 1:00 a.m. I felt cold. I woke up and found that I was dripping wet. It was like I had just climbed out of a swimming pool. My underwear was soaked, the sheets were soaked. All I could do was towel off, put on some dry underwear, and go back to bed sleeping on a towel. When I woke up again, about 8:00 a.m., I was soaked again. I still had the lumps on the neck and pains all over, but over the next two months things began to improve. About six months later I was pretty well able to get around and lift and move things, etc. At that point, one morning, July 10, 2010 to be exact, I heard my wife in the bathroom. I called and asked, "Are you getting up?" and she replied, "I think so." Then I heard a "Thump". I called out, "Are you all right?" No answer. I went to the bathroom and found the door closed. I had to push it open carefully, and found that she was lying on the floor with her head against the door. I was able to get one arm in and gently push it to one side so that I could gradually get it fully opened. She was unconscious making little moaning noises and obviously close to death. I phoned for the paramedics. They arrived in good time and went to work on her, and soon the ambulance arrived. They transported her to the regional medical center located about 35 miles away, and when she was wheeled into the emergency room she began to have a massive heart attack. That was because she had suffered a brain aneurysm and her cranial cavity was being flooded with blood and her life functions were beginning to shut down. If you don't know what an aneurysm is, it is when the wall of a blood vessel weakens and begins to swell out like a balloon filled with blood. When it bursts you have what is called a hemorrhagic stroke. When next I saw her she was in intensive care with one nurse doing nothing but care for her. Every opening in her body had a tube coming out of it and there were lots of wires attached to her and various machines. It was just like on TV or in the movies, blip, blip, blip, except for her brain which showed no activity at all. The doctor that was in charge of the Intensive Care Unit for that day was a elderly lady who happened to be a Neurosurgeon. She told me that for all intents and purposes my wife was dead, being kept alive only by the machines, and that if they were unplugged she would die. She wanted me to go home and think about what I wanted to do. I pretty much knew the answer because my wife and I had talked about it several times in the past, that we did not want to be kept alive artificially. Our Minister showed up and he, I, and my daughter prayed beside my wife. The minister prayed aloud and paced about a bit while doing it. He asked that if he was willing that God heal and restore my wife, but of course that His will be done in the matter. I went home to make the hard decision. I knew what it would be, but getting up the resolve to say, "Pull the plugs" is very, very hard when you truly love the person. I went back the next morning and told the Neurosurgeon that I'd made up my mind. She said, "Well, I'd be reluctant to withdraw life support now. During the night we saw her move her foot twice." As a result she was take by helicopter to Portland, OR, Oregon Health and Science University Hospital, a truly amazing place. She was in their Intensive Care Unit for over two weeks, and then in Critical Care for another two weeks. I visited her about every third day and watched her begin to slowly "come back". After she left Intensive Care I walked into her room one day and asked, "Do you remember who I am? Who am I?" She replied, "You're my husband." I sat down in an arm chair. She said, "Who is that sitting on the sofa?" There was no one (visible) there. I asked, "Where is he exactly?" She pointed at the sofa about three steps away. I went over to the sofa and sat on the end and asked, "Do you still see him?" "Yes." I moved over a cushion toward the center. "Do you still see him?" "Yes." I moved to the center. "Do you still see him?" "No, he's gone now." "What did he look like?" "He was shiny. I couldn't see him clearly." After being in OHSU for a month she transferred to a nursing home for another six weeks, then I took her home. Thankfully I had good insurance as her bills totaled about one million dollars, and I paid about six thousand. Thirty days after her stroke the neurosurgeon who had been her doctor in Portland wanted a follow up visit. He said to her, "I'm so glad to see you sitting there across the desk from me. 50% of the people that suffer your kind of stroke die before they get to the hospital. The other 50% die in the hospital." It's been six years now since her stroke and all she takes is an aspirin tablet as a blood thinner in the morning and a small blood pressure tablet before bed. Every time I, or a doctor takes her blood pressure is is in the neighborhood of 117/62. I have no doubt that she will outlive me. Many folks have said, and I believe that God permitted me to live in order to be her caregiver, as he sees and knows all things and knew what was going to happen to her. I know that God hears prayers. I do believe that he can heal those who request healing or have it requested in their behalf. I've lived it and seen it twice.


I guess that's the end of my story, but I wanted to make a comment to all who will read it. This Castboolits Forum of ours is unique in that although it's primary purpose is for the discussion and sharing of knowledge of our great hobby, it also seems to be a vehicle for the advancement and discussion of Christian beliefs. There are those who believe, and those who contend, question, and scoff. It is fascinating to see those of the latter persuasion and viewpoint keep returning to the threads that discuss Christian beliefs to express their doubt and negativity, almost like a moth drawn to the flame. There is something that keeps pulling them back. After all, no one makes them visit these threads and argue or comment--they just can't seem to help it. If there is something I don't like, find distasteful, or don't believe, I don't participate. Whether they want to believe it or not, and recognize it or not, something is pulling them. They're searching, looking, but can't see the forest for the trees. May God bless you all, my friends, and grant you good health.

Once again, I kept my promise. Thank you Father God for what you did for me first, and then my wife.

[Blackwater]

Let me guess......when you had cancer you were never treated with any drugs. I'm going to pray tonight for a full head of hair. Maybe if I pray all night I'll end up with enough so you don't see my balding head. I too was sick when I was young and had a fever of 104 and it was climbing. I prayed and so did my mother but I give credit for the shot in the butt I got.

That's always an option and one explanation for it. But something tells me that when you were going through it, you were grateful for those prayers IN ADDITION to the shot. "There are no atheists in foxholes," comes to mind strongly here.

At the moment just before death, when we know we're dying and about to cross over the threshold into that unknown realm from which no traveller returns, what will your attitude be then? You can claim you'll "stick to your guns" all day long, but I won't believe it. When one sees that door swinging open, and you know you're going to be drawn into it, I suspect your thought will be "Forgive me, Lord! I just wasn't thinking right!"

By not realizing that now, you lock out the very real joy that life can give us, and you limit all your relationships by your existentalist views. You can't REALLY love someone unless you truly believe it really matters. To try to do that is "cherry picking" what you accept and what you deny, and that's just not much of a way to deal with the one life you have to live.

Belief and faith is stronger than ANYTHING this world can confront us with, if we simply let it be. Denial is emptiness, plain and simple, and how anyone regards the wonders of this finite realm God created for us as being "empty" is, very simply, beyond me. It just doesn't make any real sense when it's tested.

I think many very devout Christians come to REAL belief due to challenges like the ones you're facing right now. Faith, untested, can never grow or be set in concrete, like it was intended for us to hold it. It all makes sense, UNLESS we simply get "tired" of dealing with it, and decide to deny it. Ol' Lucifer is strong and smart, and tempts us in whatever ways we're most susceptible to. We have to really THINK to keep ourselves on the right path - the one that brings us happiness, satisfaction, and the simple strength to endure the bad times and come out on the final end of it better, stronger, more lucid and humble and grateful.


I can't remember the verse (maybe someone here can?), but one of the apostles said that we are to be grateful for our trials in this life, because it's those times that we grow the most, and find our "wings" in this life, so that we can soar above all the cares and woes of life that so pock-mark this realm we're living in now. But if we carry our loads well, and finish the run with an acceptable degree of honor and faith, we're then rewarded beyond our ability to fully comprehend. But the faithless and haughty and deniers will not be able to share that, and must be dealt with very differently.

We reward those among us who simply win foot races, or ball games. How could it be different in the afterlife? Again, it all makes sense unless you're determined to deny God and prayer because of your suffering and desires. We all WANT things to be easy in this life, but they never are, and sooner or later, we're all tested, and tested sorely. It may be a different test for each of us, but it's all still a sore and unpleasant test, that goes against our OWN wills. But how else COULD we really be tested, and given a simple opportunity to show what we truly ARE on the inside of us? Tests are necessary, even if we can't find it within us to enjoy it. We've been instructed to be grateful for the tests we face. I know it's hard to ENJOY these times, but there's a REASON for everything that happens to us in this life. While Job may not have understood WHY he was being tested as he faced all the challenges Satan placed before him, he simply kept the faith, and slogged along through all of them, and when Lucifer could not break his faith, God rewarded him more than he'd been rewarded before all this. God IS fair. We sin, and thus earn the bad times in our lives, and even our existence is a blessing. But that sin is forgivable because of the sacrifice of Christ on the cross, who ELECTED to suffer in our stead, so we could have all the things we have today, the bad along with the good. And all we have to do to be granted Heaven after this life, is to remain steadfast, and simply keep our faith. That's all. How can that be viewed as "unfair?"

[Boaz]

I'm going to participate in this thread to keep a promise. The promise was made to God, that I would always tell this story of how he helped me, and subsequently my wife, if asked. I guess this thread is a request to tell that story, one that I could easily ignore. No one likes to be ridiculed or criticized for their beliefs. But I have to keep my word.

I was an extremely healthy person most of my life. When I arrived at age 67 I awoke one morning with pains in my left shoulder. I thought that it was probably the result of sleeping on it, as I prefer to sleep with my arm out and a pillow between my head and shoulder. Over the next few days it didn't go away and I just slept on the right side. Then the pain progressed to my neck, first at the base and then went upward. Then I developed marble sized lumps on the back of my head and neck which were probably infected lymph nodes. Then the pain progressed over to the right shoulder, so that I wasn't able to sleep on either side or on my back. I started sleeping sitting up. I consulted the local M.D. who took some blood samples and who told me, "You have an unknown internal infection. Something is killing all of your white blood corpuscles as soon as your body produces them, and you're losing." He referred me to an oncologist. I saw the oncologist every few days and he'd have 5 to 7 vials of blood taken. The news was always the same, "I don't know what's wrong with you, but you don't have"...a long list of maladies. They gave me every test they could think of, various scans and trips through tunnels, etc. I asked them for antibiotics, anything that might help. The answer was always the same, "We don't know what's wrong with you, so we can't treat you." They did nothing for me except draw blood time after time. I grew weaker by the day, and the night finally came when I went to bed, about 6:00 p.m. actually, and I knew that I was going to die. Before I got into bed I said, to God, "Sir, I know you're busy, and I know that I prayed about this to you before, but I wanted to remind you how bad off I am, and just say respectfully that if you're going to help me it should be tonight because I don't think I'll be around in the morning." I passed out, went to sleep, became unconscious, knew nothing. Then, at about 1:00 a.m. I felt cold. I woke up and found that I was dripping wet. It was like I had just climbed out of a swimming pool. My underwear was soaked, the sheets were soaked. All I could do was towel off, put on some dry underwear, and go back to bed sleeping on a towel. When I woke up again, about 8:00 a.m., I was soaked again. I still had the lumps on the neck and pains all over, but over the next two months things began to improve. About six months later I was pretty well able to get around and lift and move things, etc. At that point, one morning, July 10, 2010 to be exact, I heard my wife in the bathroom. I called and asked, "Are you getting up?" and she replied, "I think so." Then I heard a "Thump". I called out, "Are you all right?" No answer. I went to the bathroom and found the door closed. I had to push it open carefully, and found that she was lying on the floor with her head against the door. I was able to get one arm in and gently push it to one side so that I could gradually get it fully opened. She was unconscious making little moaning noises and obviously close to death. I phoned for the paramedics. They arrived in good time and went to work on her, and soon the ambulance arrived. They transported her to the regional medical center located about 35 miles away, and when she was wheeled into the emergency room she began to have a massive heart attack. That was because she had suffered a brain aneurysm and her cranial cavity was being flooded with blood and her life functions were beginning to shut down. If you don't know what an aneurysm is, it is when the wall of a blood vessel weakens and begins to swell out like a balloon filled with blood. When it bursts you have what is called a hemorrhagic stroke. When next I saw her she was in intensive care with one nurse doing nothing but care for her. Every opening in her body had a tube coming out of it and there were lots of wires attached to her and various machines. It was just like on TV or in the movies, blip, blip, blip, except for her brain which showed no activity at all. The doctor that was in charge of the Intensive Care Unit for that day was a elderly lady who happened to be a Neurosurgeon. She told me that for all intents and purposes my wife was dead, being kept alive only by the machines, and that if they were unplugged she would die. She wanted me to go home and think about what I wanted to do. I pretty much knew the answer because my wife and I had talked about it several times in the past, that we did not want to be kept alive artificially. Our Minister showed up and he, I, and my daughter prayed beside my wife. The minister prayed aloud and paced about a bit while doing it. He asked that if he was willing that God heal and restore my wife, but of course that His will be done in the matter. I went home to make the hard decision. I knew what it would be, but getting up the resolve to say, "Pull the plugs" is very, very hard when you truly love the person. I went back the next morning and told the Neurosurgeon that I'd made up my mind. She said, "Well, I'd be reluctant to withdraw life support now. During the night we saw her move her foot twice." As a result she was take by helicopter to Portland, OR, Oregon Health and Science University Hospital, a truly amazing place. She was in their Intensive Care Unit for over two weeks, and then in Critical Care for another two weeks. I visited her about every third day and watched her begin to slowly "come back". After she left Intensive Care I walked into her room one day and asked, "Do you remember who I am? Who am I?" She replied, "You're my husband." I sat down in an arm chair. She said, "Who is that sitting on the sofa?" There was no one (visible) there. I asked, "Where is he exactly?" She pointed at the sofa about three steps away. I went over to the sofa and sat on the end and asked, "Do you still see him?" "Yes." I moved over a cushion toward the center. "Do you still see him?" "Yes." I moved to the center. "Do you still see him?" "No, he's gone now." "What did he look like?" "He was shiny. I couldn't see him clearly." After being in OHSU for a month she transferred to a nursing home for another six weeks, then I took her home. Thankfully I had good insurance as her bills totaled about one million dollars, and I paid about six thousand. Thirty days after her stroke the neurosurgeon who had been her doctor in Portland wanted a follow up visit. He said to her, "I'm so glad to see you sitting there across the desk from me. 50% of the people that suffer your kind of stroke die before they get to the hospital. The other 50% die in the hospital." It's been six years now since her stroke and all she takes is an aspirin tablet as a blood thinner in the morning and a small blood pressure tablet before bed. Every time I, or a doctor takes her blood pressure is is in the neighborhood of 117/62. I have no doubt that she will outlive me. Many folks have said, and I believe that God permitted me to live in order to be her caregiver, as he sees and knows all things and knew what was going to happen to her. I know that God hears prayers. I do believe that he can heal those who request healing or have it requested in their behalf. I've lived it and seen it twice.


I guess that's the end of my story, but I wanted to make a comment to all who will read it. This Castboolits Forum of ours is unique in that although it's primary purpose is for the discussion and sharing of knowledge of our great hobby, it also seems to be a vehicle for the advancement and discussion of Christian beliefs. There are those who believe, and those who contend, question, and scoff. It is fascinating to see those of the latter persuasion and viewpoint keep returning to the threads that discuss Christian beliefs to express their doubt and negativity, almost like a moth drawn to the flame. There is something that keeps pulling them back. After all, no one makes them visit these threads and argue or comment--they just can't seem to help it. If there is something I don't like, find distasteful, or don't believe, I don't participate. Whether they want to believe it or not, and recognize it or not, something is pulling them. They're searching, looking, but can't see the forest for the trees. May God bless you all, my friends, and grant you good health.

Once again, I kept my promise. Thank you Father God for what you did for me first, and then my wife.


Thank you .

[Der Gebirgsjager]

Por nada!

[Pine Baron]

Der Gebirgsjager, Thank you. All Glory to God.

[Blackwater]

Cer G, please accept my thanks as well for your poignant and uplifting story. There are SO many like this about, but people, for whatever inexplicable reason, just don't seem to relate them very often. That's a shame, since stories like this show so clearly how God truly DOES work in our world, and how prayer can and does make such crucial differences.

We all tend to serve OUR wants and will, so easily and fluidly and typically. I think God made us like that so we'd just simply survive. But He ALSO gave us the soul within us, that we might, if we'll but do it, be guided by MUCH more than mere survival. We were never intended to be a bunch of uncontrolled wants and desires. We were made, originally, to be FAR more than just that.

Stories like yours really illustrate that so poignantly! And they're so easy to understand if we simply don't carry a shield of denial around in front of us, batting away all the evidences of what truly IS in this world. Thank you, and FWIW, it is FAR from being "nothing!" Stories like yours reaffirm and validate and strengthen the faith of believers, and just makes the deniers look like a doe caught in your headlights at night. They have nothing with which to deal with stories like yours. They can mock and deny 'till earth passes away, but it's still there, right in front of them, if they'll but put down their shield and simply accept the reality of it. That's what makes it far from being "nothing." Thanks. We all need to reaffirm and strengthen our belief. After all, we're only human.

[GhostHawk]

Great story!

[TXGunNut]

Never, never, never underestimate the power of prayer. We are, after all, praying to an all-powerful God. His will be done but our prayers are heard< no doubt about it.

[6bg6ga]

Religion is nothing more than a psychological need to believe in a higher being than ourselves. A lot of nice stories that have some of you with a feel good feeling in your gut but in reality is probably nothing more than a coincidence. I've seen no medical evidence to support any such claim. Nothing has been brought forward to support the so called cancer or acute problems. The only thing that has been stated was "I was sick and I prayed" its not enough for me. I've had one incidence in my life where I experienced an individual make a miracle recovery. The cancer was documented by a whole department. The individual had a whole convent of nuns praying for her for about a month and the cancer went away. The incident was also investigated by the catholic church and was found to have merit. So, what I have read so far isn't backed up with any proof as far as the Cancer or the acute medical condition therefore is nothing more than coincidence that you happened to pray and your problem was gone.
I'm amazed that none of you claim to play with poisonous snakes and the power of prayer would not only keep you from getting bit but if you did get bit you wouldn't die as a result. Someone recently within the last year or so got bit by an eastern diamond back rattlesnake and died so I guess the power of prayer didn't happen to work in this instance. I frequent a lot of churches and what I see would amaze you. I had one Baptist preacher tell me the devil made him fall and after getting up from his fall he promptly prayed and his shoulder that he hurt was instantly better. Give me a brake....... I have no love for the devil as its all of the good vers evil thing. If there is a devil I doubt that he/she/it would target a Baptist preacher so that an injury would result. The reality of this whole thing is some of you people lead such a screwed up life that you need to believe there is something out there and that something is a god and that god is going to waste his time watching insignificant people like yourselves so that he can work a miracle or two. I believe in a God simply because we didn't just happen into existence but I also believe we are nothing more than a simple amusement and when God tires of us we will be gone in a split second. So, please no moronic comments like "I will pray for you" from any of you. You all are free to believe in whatever you wish to the extent that you wish and keep it to yourselves please.

[Pine Baron]

I will pray for whomever I want. That's the point. If you wish to not believe something, that sir is your problem. However, please don't A,S.S.U.M.E. that anybody's life is "screwed up" just because it doesn't meet your limited and close minded viewpoint. One break, coming up!

[6bg6ga]

Sir, I believe in reality. If you cannot prove there is an injury or sickness then its in your head. Most if not all of what I have read is nothing more than coincidence. Some of you people eat, sleep, and dream religion. Wake up! There is more to life than what you have been brain washed to believe. I grew up as a child in a catholic home. I can still remember the religion that was taught in the catholic grade school. What we learned what was repeated over and over and over again. We learned question and answers and all was drummed into our heads. This is nothing more than simple brain washing.

[Boaz]

They are here to distract us and prevent prayer or praise of GOD by starting arguments and breaking up the different threads . There is no other practical reason for their posts in a chapel .

[Pine Baron]

6bg,
You have proved my point. IMHO, your experience has closed your mind to God and his wondrous Creation. Try opening your heart and mind to acceptance of "things unseen". You may actually find that life is more than bitterness and cynicism.

[6bg6ga]

Some of you don't seem to realize I still have the right to post. Some of you don't like what I have said simply because its the truth. Show me the way. Show me the proof and I too will believe. I believe in prayer and I also believe in reality. I do not however believe in wishful thinking. I have seen nothing here to prove anything happened. Show me the proof of an acute problem or cancer or something along this line and then show this acute problem went away. Its really simple otherwise you have absolutely nothing to back up these wonderful stories and they become nothing but stories without any proof. Might as well talk about snow white and the seven dwarfs.

[Pine Baron]

6bg,
Of course you have every right to post anything you want, so do I. As far as truth is concerned, your truth may be different than my truth, that's a given. Consider this. All medical studies of cures contain a certain percentage, as high as 15 %, of people being cured by the "placebo" affect. Coincidence? Faith? Your call.
The WAY is before you, nobody can show you, you have to find it yourself. I'm just trying to help.
"Sword of truth fly straight and true, that evil perish and good endure." I love "Snow White and the seven dwarfs".

[Boaz]

Some of you don't seem to realize I still have the right to post. Some of you don't like what I have said simply because its the truth. Show me the way. Show me the proof and I too will believe. I believe in prayer and I also believe in reality. I do not however believe in wishful thinking. I have seen nothing here to prove anything happened. Show me the proof of an acute problem or cancer or something along this line and then show this acute problem went away. Its really simple otherwise you have absolutely nothing to back up these wonderful stories and they become nothing but stories without any proof. Might as well talk about snow white and the seven dwarfs.

Only distraction . Arguing to keep you from honoring GOD .

[Blackwater]

Religion is nothing more than a psychological need to believe in a higher being than ourselves. A lot of nice stories that have some of you with a feel good feeling in your gut but in reality is probably nothing more than a coincidence. I've seen no medical evidence to support any such claim. Nothing has been brought forward to support the so called cancer or acute problems. The only thing that has been stated was "I was sick and I prayed" its not enough for me. I've had one incidence in my life where I experienced an individual make a miracle recovery. The cancer was documented by a whole department. The individual had a whole convent of nuns praying for her for about a month and the cancer went away. The incident was also investigated by the catholic church and was found to have merit. So, what I have read so far isn't backed up with any proof as far as the Cancer or the acute medical condition therefore is nothing more than coincidence that you happened to pray and your problem was gone.
I'm amazed that none of you claim to play with poisonous snakes and the power of prayer would not only keep you from getting bit but if you did get bit you wouldn't die as a result. Someone recently within the last year or so got bit by an eastern diamond back rattlesnake and died so I guess the power of prayer didn't happen to work in this instance. I frequent a lot of churches and what I see would amaze you. I had one Baptist preacher tell me the devil made him fall and after getting up from his fall he promptly prayed and his shoulder that he hurt was instantly better. Give me a brake....... I have no love for the devil as its all of the good vers evil thing. If there is a devil I doubt that he/she/it would target a Baptist preacher so that an injury would result. The reality of this whole thing is some of you people lead such a screwed up life that you need to believe there is something out there and that something is a god and that god is going to waste his time watching insignificant people like yourselves so that he can work a miracle or two. I believe in a God simply because we didn't just happen into existence but I also believe we are nothing more than a simple amusement and when God tires of us we will be gone in a split second. So, please no moronic comments like "I will pray for you" from any of you. You all are free to believe in whatever you wish to the extent that you wish and keep it to yourselves please.

6bg, you just came here to "show off" your denial, didn't you? To disrupt people of faith discussing what people of faith discuss, didn't you? OK. You're FAR from the first and won't be the last. But what you're doing just shows how much evil and ill will you've let within you.

That's YOUR problem, sir. We've been putting up with people like you and thoughts like yours for 2,000 years now. Do you seriously think that you're suddenly going to be the one who steps up and unravels the whole thing? HAR! You're a real legend in your own mind, aren't you?

There's nothing you can say, do, think or feel that hasn't been said, done, thought or felt in the past 2,000 years, but your inner grandiosity and worship of your own self, has led you to the inane concept that what you're doing is rational. It's not, but I don't expect you to see that. You're just another convert to another power other than God, and are doing that entity's bidding, succumbing to evil temptations, and poisoning your thoughts and words and deeds.

And in all probability, you're doing it to "get even with God" for allowing something bad to happen to you, that you didn't WANT to happen.

You've been told why things like this happen, but you choose to not accept it, so you can carry on your denial and vendetta against God. So be it. God gives you that privilege, and nobody here can override that, nor do they seek to.

But you look awfully foolish among a bunch of believers who KNOW things that you have just simply chosen to hide your face from and pretend don't exist. That's your decision and your consequences to pay for when the bill finally comes due.

God lets us all run a tab, and only presents us with the bill at the final hour. Just before you die, I suspect you'll have one last, final revelation about how foolish and willful and dependent on evil you've been. That's a very poor moment to choose to see what's been apparent all along, but that's YOUR business, and YOUR quandry to deal with as YOU determine fit for you.

I'll just never understand how people can be so totally unfair and willful to their own SELVES.

[Blackwater]

C'mon, guys. I KNOW some of you have more stories. Don't let the idjit disbelievers have the Chapel here, or intimidate you, or make you afraid of what they might say! I KNOW many of you have stories you can relate. PLEASE don't hold them under a bushel. If one of you starts this thread back again, I think many would be blessed by it.

I for one have seen prayer do things that I was personally SURE meant the difference in the end, though many were receiving medical attention as well. It's one of those things that YOU know was God's hand at work, but most of us know agnostics and disbelievers of every other type will mock us for telling such stories.

It's when we do this that we LET the non-believers control US! That ain't right, men! So let's show 'em what REAL Christians are, and that we're not afraid of their inane and quarrelsome aspersions.

Let's hear from you what YOU have seen and felt. It matters, so don't let the idjits take that from us. We simply CANNOT let them do this, without diminishing our own selves in the process.

No, it's not always pleasant to deal with these aggressive non-believers, but it's what God demands we should do whenever our lives and our whole religion isn't on the line. We either use what we have or we lose it.

So, I challenge each of you to post some example where you felt prayer was at least a vital part of someone's being healed. I doubt there's a single one among us who hasn't had that experience, so let's give those non-believers enough targets to play with that maybe they'll get tired of it and just go away.

And it's NEVER too late or unwanted to tell the truth, even if it means telling someone intruding what a boor they actually are. So let's see who worships PC theology, and who's willing to stand up for his beliefs. After all, if you can't or won't stand up for your beliefs and faith, who else will ..... or should?

It's up to each of us, really, to do battle against evil. We're the strong right arm of God, if we'll just allow ourselves to be. God and Christ were never timid when challenged. They may have remained silent, but were NEVER timid, nor afraid. How can WE, who call ourselves by His name, be that way? If we are, we let Satan rule, not Christ.

Have we so little faith as to let these disbelievers run rampant here in the Chapel, even, and run US off? Heavenly Father I HOPE NOT!!!! If we have no more spine than that in our beliefs, what are they then worth, really? A powerful question, and one we NEED to answer. It's not about our being "ready" for it.

It's just about our DEALING with it, whenever and wherever it occurs! And here is NO place to let it run rampant nor let it be without countering it, and doing so effectively! Don't we all realize that? Or have we become more PC than we are Christian?

[Boaz]

Ahh I don't think anyone is afraid of them . They just know they can put a damper on things so they do . I normally don't even read their posts and if you read the latest ones it's not hard to figure out why . They will say anything to get an argument started or do some trolling to get you to trying to convince them of GOD . All just to torment and make people mad . They are drawn to places like this like a moth to a flame to cause believers problems . Any prayer , good work , praise or form of worship irritates them. No ones conviction needs defense and GOD certainly does not need defense. As long as you give them ANY attention at all they just get worse . As the sticky says at the top of the Chapel ;

Your church affiliation is not important , we care about you not the name on the building your church meets in . We are here to simply help each other , give praise to our GOD , pray for one another and provide encouragement .

It's pretty self explanatory . They could start a topic in the pit but thats not enough 'fun' . Nothing but trolls .

[6bg6ga]

I guess there are a few of you that seem to be afraid now that a posed a simple question or two. I simply wish to know if any of you that profess to have been healed have any proof. If not then I guess I will continue to wonder. Many pasters and ministers I have spoken to have commented that investigations have been carried out in such cases. The catholic church for example investigates these miracles. So, anything on paper to back any of these miracles up?

[Blackwater]

You haven't "posed a simple question," sir, you've intruded where you are unsuitable to be. That's something different than what you claim it is. You're doing EXACTLY what Boaz says, and the funny and tragic part of it is, YOU think it's funny. It's not. It's an aggression, and while Boaz has a point, and a very good one, you're just serving quite another entity than God. And you know it. And you find glee in that. So be it. You idjit deniers have been doing what you do for many centuries, and you've not made one speck of difference. But you continue anyway. You continue because you're compelled by your inner knowledge that we're right and your contentions are wrong, but you don't care about that, you're gonna' do it anyway because of your compulsion to intrude where you honestly have no right to be.

You do these things not just knowingly and willfully, but with glee, as though you ENJOY it - disrupting righteous purposes. You can't resist it, so .... you don't. You're not ever in control of your own selves, nor anything you say. You consistently revert to age-old lies that have been disproven and discredited for many, many years. I'd think you could come up with SOMETHING different every now and then, but your type has NO respect for reality or logic or reason or belief. So you do what you do, apparently in the belief that by intruding here, you're agrandizing your own selves.

You have no place here because you don't believe, and thus, are unfit to do what we do here. But YOU say "I have a right ...." No sir. You don't. You may have a privilege, but you do NOT, emphatically, have any right to intrude upon righteous prayer and discussion. That's supposed to be allowed in the pit.

If you insist on intruding, we'll deal with it. You obviously can't. You can only intrude, and that's not "dealing with" anything. It's just showing just how wretchedly twisted and desperate you really are.

Whores and other sinners are welcome in any real church. Those who are determined to disbelieve, no matter what, and are here to disrupt are NOT welcome. You're more out of place than a "***** in church." The one you're whored out to, though, will eventually consume you and all that you've ever been. But you don't care about that ..... yet. But you will one day. But it'll be too late then. I actually still feel sorry for one so lame and forlorn as you obviously are.

[Boaz]

I guess there are a few of you that seem to be afraid now that a posed a simple question or two. I simply wish to know if any of you that profess to have been healed have any proof. If not then I guess I will continue to wonder. Many pasters and ministers I have spoken to have commented that investigations have been carried out in such cases. The catholic church for example investigates these miracles. So, anything on paper to back any of these miracles up?

LOL , classic example .

[cbashooter]

Sir, I believe in reality. If you cannot prove there is an injury or sickness then its in your head. Most if not all of what I have read is nothing more than coincidence. Some of you people eat, sleep, and dream religion. Wake up! There is more to life than what you have been brain washed to believe. I grew up as a child in a catholic home. I can still remember the religion that was taught in the catholic grade school. What we learned what was repeated over and over and over again. We learned question and answers and all was drummed into our heads. This is nothing more than simple brain washing.

Have to agree with that. Truth and reality are very hard to grasp sometimes. faith is rather easy. I will put my so-called "faith" in educated doctors an empirical tested scientific evidence whenever me or my family is sick.


Well doesn't the Bible say somewhere "ask and you shall receive" So stop going to the doctors and just ask to be healed to see how your life goes....

If it wasn't for advanced science and very good doctors I would have been dead ten years ago but they found damage to my aorta from an auto accident in an MRI were able to save me.I don't think prayer would have done so well.

[6bg6ga]

Mr. Blackwater, I happen to have the same right that you do to post here. I asked a simple question and that is show me the proof. So far no proof has been given to prove anyone was actually sick and or cured of this sickness. You all profess to be God fearing people and you done nothing but attack me for asking for some simple proof. Some have gone as far as to suggest that I am with the devil. Unless I am badly mistaken this particular thread this section is no different than any other section in this forum. ANY person has the right to come in and to post. If you feel I am in error than do your best to get be banned from this forum. Until this happens I will continue to ask the same question and that is show me the proof.

[jcwit]

Let me guess......when you had cancer you were never treated with any drugs. I'm going to pray tonight for a full head of hair. Maybe if I pray all night I'll end up with enough so you don't see my balding head. I too was sick when I was young and had a fever of 104 and it was climbing. I prayed and so did my mother but I give credit for the shot in the butt I got.

Just for the record my temp ran 108 degrees for most of the night my mother sat outside my room praying. Tell us how many 13 year olds live thru that with no brain damage?

How many with twisted legs and back's go on to walk and serve their Country in active duty with no hardship.

What's the average of folks with cancer that take chemo with no ill effects and recover from cancer after being told they have a 30% chance of living more than a month or two. Then try to convince me there is no power in Prayer.

[jcwit]

BTW, I did not go bald till years later in my old age, just as my father did.

[6bg6ga]

Well, if this did indeed happen your probably in the medical journals. Any idea of what month and year I can start looking? JAMA would have some good records and articles on such an impressive event as yours.

[cbashooter]

The Great Randy (de bunker of Uri Gellar)offers a million-dollar prize for proof of Supernatural in a controlled setting (prayer being one of them) I am sure if it worked somebody would be a million dollars richer right now.

[shoot-n-lead]

You haven't "posed a simple question," sir, you've intruded where you are unsuitable to be. That's something different than what you claim it is. You're doing EXACTLY what Boaz says, and the funny and tragic part of it is, YOU think it's funny. It's not. It's an aggression, and while Boaz has a point, and a very good one, you're just serving quite another entity than God. And you know it. And you find glee in that. So be it. You idjit deniers have been doing what you do for many centuries, and you've not made one speck of difference. But you continue anyway. You continue because you're compelled by your inner knowledge that we're right and your contentions are wrong, but you don't care about that, you're gonna' do it anyway because of your compulsion to intrude where you honestly have no right to be.

You do these things not just knowingly and willfully, but with glee, as though you ENJOY it - disrupting righteous purposes. You can't resist it, so .... you don't. You're not ever in control of your own selves, nor anything you say. You consistently revert to age-old lies that have been disproven and discredited for many, many years. I'd think you could come up with SOMETHING different every now and then, but your type has NO respect for reality or logic or reason or belief. So you do what you do, apparently in the belief that by intruding here, you're agrandizing your own selves.

You have no place here because you don't believe, and thus, are unfit to do what we do here. But YOU say "I have a right ...." No sir. You don't. You may have a privilege, but you do NOT, emphatically, have any right to intrude upon righteous prayer and discussion. That's supposed to be allowed in the pit.

If you insist on intruding, we'll deal with it. You obviously can't. You can only intrude, and that's not "dealing with" anything. It's just showing just how wretchedly twisted and desperate you really are.

Whores and other sinners are welcome in any real church. Those who are determined to disbelieve, no matter what, and are here to disrupt are NOT welcome. You're more out of place than a "***** in church." The one you're whored out to, though, will eventually consume you and all that you've ever been. But you don't care about that ..... yet. But you will one day. But it'll be too late then. I actually still feel sorry for one so lame and forlorn as you obviously are.

Blackwater...now, you talk as if you may be able to understand my habit of "shaking the dust from my shoes" and leaving these serpents to GOD, to be dealt with. It is a waste of your time and you may well be squandering a chance to witness to an open mind, while engaging these reprobates.

[6bg6ga]

Like I said its a simple. Some of you claim to have had cancer and other major illnesses. If this is true it is easily documented with nothing more than a piece of paper from your local clinic stating their diagnosis. Yet, you cannot, will not provide this. Yet, you now claim to have been healed by a miracle from God. If you have nothing to hide you have nothing to fear. I will gladly accept the truth. Its pretty simple....your diagnosis sheet has numbers and subsections on it that they check and they generally write something next to it. Simply cover up your name so no one can see it and post a picture of it.

[Boaz]

Back to the topic .
GOD does indeed create and perform miracles . GOD does give us the power of healing one another through him but it is rare . To attain the level of relationship with him and to be the connivance of his power has never been for everyone because of our own failings or simply because it is not his plan . The power or ability of prophesy is also given to some but not all . There is a plan , there is a reason . Our ability's given are part of it , he chooses those ability's accordingly............there is a reason . Through GOD all things are possible .

[Boaz]

3 Now Peter and John went up together into the temple at the hour of prayer, being the ninth hour.
2 And a certain man lame from his mother's womb was carried, whom they laid daily at the gate of the temple which is called Beautiful, to ask alms of them that entered into the temple;
3 Who seeing Peter and John about to go into the temple asked an alms.
4 And Peter, fastening his eyes upon him with John, said, Look on us.
5 And he gave heed unto them, expecting to receive something of them.
6 Then Peter said, Silver and gold have I none; but such as I have give I thee: In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth rise up and walk.
7 And he took him by the right hand, and lifted him up: and immediately his feet and ankle bones received strength.
8 And he leaping up stood, and walked, and entered with them into the temple, walking, and leaping, and praising God.
9 And all the people saw him walking and praising God:
10 And they knew that it was he which sat for alms at the Beautiful gate of the temple: and they were filled with wonder and amazement at that which had happened unto him.
11 And as the lame man which was healed held Peter and John, all the people ran together unto them in the porch that is called Solomon's, greatly wondering.
12 And when Peter saw it, he answered unto the people, Ye men of Israel, why marvel ye at this? or why look ye so earnestly on us, as though by our own power or holiness we had made this man to walk?

[6bg6ga]

I don't doubt that GOD does indeed create and perform miracles. I'm only asking for poof that there have been illnesses in the storys above. Sometimes the mind has a habit of putting more into the situation then there actually is. You have to admit there is a possibility in some of these storys that someone thought they had an illness when in fact it was a product of their mind. Still an easy solution here. Prove there was actually an illness and I will believe there was a miracle.

[Boaz]

Although we all may not be able to heal directly all of us still are endowed with the power of prayer. A bridge to talk to him . Ask his help, praise him , get answers, seek all he provides . Although there are many references to prayer in your bible I like this one because it is simple and self explainatory.

James 5;16

Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.

We do have the power to heal through prayer and praying together the power compounds itself .

[jcwit]

Well, if this did indeed happen your probably in the medical journals. Any idea of what month and year I can start looking? JAMA would have some good records and articles on such an impressive event as yours.

Have fun, Sept 1955 or 1956.

Good luck.

Was at the Childrens Hospital in South Bend, In. looking out my window in my room The Golden Dome was visiable.

Have fun in your quest, may very well take up enough of your time to not post as you have been doing.

I lived it, you didn't!

[WRideout]

When I volunteered at the VA hospital a few years ago, I sat in on the classes that the chaplain gave at the Domiciliary, where recovering addicts were treated. I remember the eyes of the men in the room, some of them quite young. They had what we used to call the "thousand yard stare." We were having a group discussion when I asked, without really knowing what I was asking, "Is anyone grateful for their addiction?" A few hands went up, and the answers were all about finding that moment when they were completely dependent on God. Many years later, I find that I have also had times when there was nothing left but to depend on God, who was in fact in control of my life.

I am not afraid of people who express doubt. It can be difficult to acknowledge that there is something bigger than one's self. Almost anything can be proven or disproven by rational thought and logic, but faith is not like that. Science will only get you so far, then one has to admit that there are simply things in this universe that have no rational explanation.

Healing is not always about the physical body. Sometimes the spirit is healed when the body is not. Those who cry out in anger against a God they don't trust, may be saying that there is a God, whom they should trust.

Wayne

[Boaz]

I agree . Spiritual healing would be more critical and beneficial than physical healing in the short and long run .

[cbashooter]

David Hume wrote in 1748: "A wise man ... proportions his belief to the evidence", and "No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such a kind, that its falsehood would be more miraculous than the fact which it endeavors to establish"

Marcello Truzzi said it simplest'"An extraordinary claim requires extraordinary proof"

[Blackwater]

Mr. Blackwater, I happen to have the same right that you do to post here. I asked a simple question and that is show me the proof. So far no proof has been given to prove anyone was actually sick and or cured of this sickness. You all profess to be God fearing people and you done nothing but attack me for asking for some simple proof. Some have gone as far as to suggest that I am with the devil. Unless I am badly mistaken this particular thread this section is no different than any other section in this forum. ANY person has the right to come in and to post. If you feel I am in error than do your best to get be banned from this forum. Until this happens I will continue to ask the same question and that is show me the proof.

And just what kind of "proof" would be sufficient for you? You do NOT have any right to disrupt righteous prayer and congregation. You just DO it anyway. You can assert any kind of lies that suit your purposes, but you can't make them valid or true or honorable. You're a misfit here, and only here for the purpose of creating trouble and dissent. You're not even looking for real "answers," except as they might be used to continue your attempted assault on Godly proceedings. You think you disrupt us, but you can't. God and his service will NEVER be overcome, least of all by the likes of one so obviously and tranparently of ill will as you.

But as I said, that doesn't stop you, because you simply don't CARE about what's right or true or good. You just have nothing but trouble making on your mind, and hatred of righteousness in your heart. And you think we Christians are afraid of and shrink from THAT???? When it's BEEN being what's been thrust at us for millenea now???? HAR! The tip of your spear is awfully blunt, sir! If you're planning to wage war on Christianity and belief, you're really going about it in an awfully pitiful and stupid way!

So take your "rights" and don't let the door hit you in the backside. We're going to do what we do, whether you like it or not, and no matter what you attempt to do to stop us.

We're onto your vicious and silly ways, and we're no longer going to just disperse any time you wannabe bullies show up.

And every jot and tittle of what you say and do and intend here is being recorded somewhere, and one day, you'll have to answer for every tiny bit of it. Load your wagon as heavy as you like. Won't affect any of us here in the least. But in your grandiose image of your own self, and your actions, I don't expect that reality to stop you. You've shown rather clearly that reality is NOT your strong suit! So be it.

You and BinS came from the "pit" just to be disruptive, didn't you? You've never shown up before here, have you? And you think we're too dumb to see your purpose and intent???? HAR! Rule No. 1 of engaging any "enemy" - Do NOT underestimate them! You have done exactly that, sir. Badly.

[Blackwater]

Just for the record my temp ran 108 degrees for most of the night my mother sat outside my room praying. Tell us how many 13 year olds live thru that with no brain damage?

How many with twisted legs and back's go on to walk and serve their Country in active duty with no hardship.

What's the average of folks with cancer that take chemo with no ill effects and recover from cancer after being told they have a 30% chance of living more than a month or two. Then try to convince me there is no power in Prayer.

Amen, JC. For those who understand, no explanation is necessary. For those who don't, no explanation is sufficient. But then, they're not here to argue or debate, but to disrupt. They have no idea how much true strength there really is within Christianity. After all, weak things COULD not last for 2,000 years, could they? I have no doubt whatsoever that prayer was a real and vital element of your being here today. Thank you for pulling through and telling your story so more can, if they but will, might see the Truth of God and His healing hands, and the real value and power of simple prayer. It matters. Thank you!

[Blackwater]

Well, if this did indeed happen your probably in the medical journals. Any idea of what month and year I can start looking? JAMA would have some good records and articles on such an impressive event as yours.

JAMA doesn't record things like this, 6ga. But you already knew that, didn't you? You're just trying to think of SOME sort of "comeback," aren't you? You're doing exactly what I and others have said, and you're ONLY here to argue and disrupt righteous goings on that occur here. As such, you're serving only Evil, and it's all being recorded each time you try to slip your haughty disbelief in here. Like I said, you're more out of place than a ***** in church. At least whores sometimes have a heart with which to feel the simple Truth with, if they just let it be so. You don't even have THAT any more - nothing but your haughty, pretentious, empty disbelief. You're more transparent than cellophane! So be it. Your choice, your consequences.

[Blackwater]

The Great Randy (de bunker of Uri Gellar)offers a million-dollar prize for proof of Supernatural in a controlled setting (prayer being one of them) I am sure if it worked somebody would be a million dollars richer right now.

God grants prayers that are rendered up in sincerity and need. He does NOT appreciate "being tested." If you had any knowledge of what you're spouting off about, you'd know that. But you don't, and yet you continue! What an absolutely STUPID thing for a grown man to do! You're a real legend in your own mind, aren't you?

[Blackwater]

Yes, I do, Lead. Always have, actually. It was part of my personality for decades, and now, I'm truly sorry for it. It's not the haughty, self-congratulatory idjit disbelievers I'm concerned with, though. It's those on the periphery who read but don't post, who MIGHT be persuaded by their lies and pretensions that are the real issue here. I've noted for decades how that "shake the dust" verse has been used, and all too often, I fear, it's been used simply to avoid unpleasantness, than it is to really justify our behavior in reality. It's understandable, of course. Nobody likes arguing with idjits who have no real intent to promote wisdom and understanding, but exactly the opposite.

They truly serve a quite different Master than our Lord, and think, for NOW at least, that they're "having a great time." But they're not. Nothing EVER satisfies them. They have needs that NOTHING can satisfy, because they don't really INTEND to satisfy anything within them. They're just full of spite and hate for righteousness, in whatever forms they encounter it, because it's a constant and ever present reminder of just how empty and unhappy they really are. This compels them to act aggressively toward people of faith or any expressions thereof they encounter. That's why they've come here. It's definitely NOT to learn or grow or understand or contribute to the righteous activities here, but to disrupt, and TRY to deny us what we know is real and everlasting. It's a fool's errand on their part, but you can't keep a fool from his chosen devices and idiocy. All we can do is simply deal with it, and "shaking the dust" just hasn't served us very well.

In support of that, I'd offer the simple fact that this has clearly become the operative mode of most Christians today. It was NOT always like that. Once, people could and would argue these things, and still remain friends. The conditions at the time were conducive, and kind'a supportive of that. Today, we've got it so easy that people can be as willful and neglectful as we want, and we'll STILL survive! This is a significant change from the way things have been in this country since its inception. Where we CAN survive and be as willful as we wish, we obviously have chosen to become as willful and pretentious as we can possibly be, at least very typically. No need to believe in God and the Afterlife and Christ if we can't see our own demise one day. "Eat, drink and be merry, for tomorrow we shall die" doesn't even ring with any truth to many "moderns," today.

As a result, even we Christians have taken to not even defending oursleves, on the basis of that verse alone. But there are many other verses, including that age-old question, "Am I my brother's keeper?" that ALSO have to be taken into consideration. We've allowed ourselves to become willful, too, just in a different way than the disbelievers, and because of that, evil has grown. When good men sit and do nothing, evil tends to reign among us. And I think we've sat and done nothing, using that verse as our excuse, for FAR too long. Even many within our own families have fallen to disbelief because we've continued to sit silently and "respectfully" while even our own family members have been lost. How can THAT be "God's will for us?" I simply don't think it can. I'm grateful for a great son and two fine grandsons who believe, but I don't kid myself that they can't be lost at some point.

Thus, I've simply resolved to take the less pleasant route, and engage those who try to spread their poison. It's really just that simple. If I'm wrong, Christ knows I have given it a lot of thought. I certainly didn't WANT to devote my time and whatever knowledge and talents I may have accumulated through the years to doing this. I just can't NOT do it when I believe as I do. Many will retain their belief in that verse, of course, and may will devoutly believe they're doing God's will. It's one of those things that we Christians can legitimately debate. I frankly, wish someone could convince me otherwise. It would allow me to spend some time doing other, more satisfying things for me, personally. Maybe I'm kind'a like ol' Don Quixote, tilting at wind mills, but I honestly don't believe that's so.

I guess I DO get a little thrill out of engaging evil with righteousness, or what elements of it I can muster up in my dusty old way. But I know that's wrong of me, and it's waning. Nothing brings out the best in a man than a good fight of some kind, whether it be in armed warfare or a simple debate. It also brings out the worst in us sometimes, too, and it's hard for us to see that at times. Mostly, though, I'm FAR more calm and stating things very matter-of-factly than the idjit disbelievers seem to think I am when they read my responses to them. They see what they WANT to see. And what they "see" seems to, in almost every case, be simple illusions within their own minds. But reality and truth have never been their strong suit, and when that's true, there's never going to be a very good end to it all. They're merely "loading thier wagon" as many say here - piling up the offenses that they're sooner or later going to have to pay for, and pay for dearly.

I think if we Christians had been seriously engaging and countering the "secular progressives" for the past 40 years, and hadn't ever read that "shake the dust" verse, we'd be in a very different place than we are now. I think fewer people would have fallen into the throes and belief in evil and fantasy, and that makes US responsible, at least as to acts of omission on our part, for their loss. I am truly sorry for every soul that is lost, and most especially those that were lost because of what we Christians failed to do, because we absorbed too much escapism by being more PC than Biblical based in our actions.

We're told that if we but truly seek, we WILL find, and I can't think of a single instance where that hasn't proven true. But what it doesn't say is that if we go reading the Bible, looking for excuses to do OUR will rather than the Lord's, we'll find what we seek there, as well. That's the "Cathch-22" in reading the Bible. One with their own wills in mind CAN, very often, perceive (by perversion) many verses in accord with their will, instead of according to the Lord's. This is the built in "trap" in it all, that has caused me to seek advice and counself of other, obviously more knowledgeable and understanding of it all than I was. My own will prevented me from truly understanding the Bible raw, in its pure form. Only reading the thoughts and ideas and insights of others has enabled me to see just how truly willful and self-deluded I've been in the past, even as a believer for well over 50 years now! When things truly become clear, and we KNOW we've seen "the light," it's a wonderful and very humbling thing to realize we'd been reading the same things over and over for 50+ years, and STILL not been able to crack the surface on them! Truly, our Bible is a wondrous book, but it's a tough nut to crack if we're really seeking to understand the divine. I've got at least a little of it, FINALLY! And for the life of me, I can't stand even the thought of letting it waste away unused. I feel like I've already done that for WAY too long! And if I did, I think it'd be a shameful waste of all the things I've learned from the many who've led me to such light as I've been able to discern thus far.

The funny thing about Light is, the more of it you see, the more of it you CAN see, and not all of it is really pleasant - like realizing how responsible for so many acts of omission in the past decades. But reality is what it is, and it's not exactly a new concept to me that I've erred in the past. So, I just accept what I find, and go forth, looking for more and better. I know it's out there. I'm far too dull for there not to be!

[Blackwater]

Like I said its a simple. Some of you claim to have had cancer and other major illnesses. If this is true it is easily documented with nothing more than a piece of paper from your local clinic stating their diagnosis. Yet, you cannot, will not provide this. Yet, you now claim to have been healed by a miracle from God. If you have nothing to hide you have nothing to fear. I will gladly accept the truth. Its pretty simple....your diagnosis sheet has numbers and subsections on it that they check and they generally write something next to it. Simply cover up your name so no one can see it and post a picture of it.

Go get your documentation for the Master YOU serve. You don't apparently like ours.

[Blackwater]

I don't doubt that GOD does indeed create and perform miracles. I'm only asking for poof that there have been illnesses in the storys above. Sometimes the mind has a habit of putting more into the situation then there actually is. You have to admit there is a possibility in some of these storys that someone thought they had an illness when in fact it was a product of their mind. Still an easy solution here. Prove there was actually an illness and I will believe there was a miracle.

OK. First you say you don't doubt miracles, and THEN you want "proof?" How is that to be believed? It's self-contradictory. You and BinS and more came here just to "play," and try to spread your disbelief, didn't you? And then, you expect us not to notice? HAR! Maybe we're not as dumb as you had to convince yourself we are if you thought we were THAT easy!

[Blackwater]

David Hume wrote in 1748: "A wise man ... proportions his belief to the evidence", and "No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such a kind, that its falsehood would be more miraculous than the fact which it endeavors to establish"

Marcello Truzzi said it simplest'"An extraordinary claim requires extraordinary proof"

Exactly, Shooter. But the problem is, what do these deniers consider "evidence?" Every time they are given real evidence, they simply deny THAT, and say they want "REAL" evidence. To them, everything is just "a claim," unless THEY can see and duplicate it at will. Of course, faith has never been that way. It's given ONLY to believers, and then not always. St. Paul had what he called a "thorn in his side," that God refused to remove from him, and heal. So here was Paul, a literal Saint, being refused a healing! Why was this? Paul had a bit of pridefulness within him. Mabye it was that "thorn of the flesh" (epilepsy maybe?) that kept him humble, and on the path that God had chosen for him? That's just one explanation and there are others. But we do not understand as God and Christ do, simply because we are not the same SUBSTANCE as they are. Thus, the necessity of faith for our more complete understanding of just what and who gets healed and who doesn't. I suspect that many prayers don't get much higher than the ceiling they're said under, but real, earnest, heartfelt and desperate prayers, really DO get heard, and often heeded by our Master. We've all here seen the evidence of it. Some just deny that evidence, and are SO intent and determined to continue denying, that they have come to not even WANT real evidence, and will deny all of it we might ever present. They simply don't WANT to believe so .... miraculously (yeah, that's a joke and a stab at their feigned "sincerity") they just don't. And they likely never will, because they're simply not open to it.

Being open to believing in miracles doesn't mean the same thing as merely SAYING it. It's very much real, despite what the deniers and mockers will ever say. And WE know it, even if they keep on denying it 'till time passes away. No skin off of our nose. Only thiers. I wish they understood what it is they're really doing. But wishin' ain't gittin', is it?

[6bg6ga]

Relax JAck... Let me try to clarify. I do not consider what you folks believe as a miracle an actual miracle. Like I pointed out the ministers, and such that I have talked to say they do conduct investigations of these instances just like the catholic church does. I believe that in order to be a miracle there has to be a sickness or such that is documented. You kind folks do not have any documentation and or proof to back up your claims. If you did happen to come across with such documentation I would have no problem believing. You profess to be christians and yet you continue to throw mud at me taunting me asking which master I serve. Unlike what would appear to be some of you I act upon logic, proof and common sense. I have the right to doubt what has been stated here because there is no absolute proof that there was what I would call an instance of severe sickness. If there was in fact bonified proof of this illness and this ilness was cured I absolutely would believe it.

[jcwit]

What form of documentation do you wish me to present? Children's hospital in South Bend, IN was torn down years ago, I'm fairly certain most if not all of the Dr.s & Nurses that attended me are long gone. As are my mother & father & both of my brothers. I was 12 at the time and my 13 birthday was in Oct., I'm now 72. After all it was in 1956, bact before they shut down the Studebaker plant.

As I've said before, I'm the one who lived it, don't like my personnel experience?

Stuff your discontent where the sun don't shine!

Quit bringing discontent to the Chapel section, I would think you would have better things to do than cut down what others believe.




Ya know, there's an old saying, If you can't say something good, keep your mouth shut!

[jcwit]

BTW, another miracle happens to me every time I go to confession, I am absolved of all my sins, that in itself is a miracle.

I also receive a Miracle every Mass when I receive the Eucharist.

You want to get real picky about it, the mere fact I was conceived, grew and was born is in itself a miracle is it not, can anyone but God do that?

[Der Gebirgsjager]

Ponder this: Look at how tiny an ant is compared to you and me. Yet, they still have a social network with duties to fulfill. Hard to say exactly what an ant thinks about. You and I, we know what we think about, and are able to think and express ourselves in the abstract, which is kind of what this thread is all about. Faith--nothing you can see or put your finger on exactly. But how tiny are we compared to the planet on which we live, and how big does our planet look from, say, Jupiter? From Pluto? Then you can go on out into space so far that our sun is just a twinkling star, and farther yet you won't be able to see it at all. But here were are, in the totality of things, much, much smaller than an ant. And yet, we exist, are conscious, communicate, and can think abstract thoughts. So where did the thought/concept of God come from, and why do some of us believe in him? That, Sir, is in itself a great miracle and to me proof of Creation. You look for proof, but I and others have given you first hand accounts of what we experienced and witnessed. In a court of law that is called "direct evidence" and is considered the best kind of evidence. You choose to demand documentation of these events. Personally, I find that insulting and your insinuation that it is not so is calling me a liar. The Holy Bible is of itself documentation. I find it odd that someone who entered the thread not to participate but to scoff and question, and to denigrate those contributing, continues to visit. You claim that you believe in God, but doubt his works or his ability to do miraculous healings. Therefore, it is evident that you do not know God, and you are the one who does not tell the truth and is misrepresenting yourself. You are not what or who you say you are. I think what is needed here is the "cold shoulder." You should neither be acknowledged nor answered. Get thee hence. It's so easy and cowardly to hide behind the anonymity of the internet. If you have nothing constructive to contribute---depart.

[DCP]

I find it interesting that some would be insulted to show proof or documentation.
The Roman Catholic church does before the make someone a Saint, they just dont take someone word for it.

Please see my new thread
(Are there Angels among us)

[Blackwater]

Relax JAck... Let me try to clarify. I do not consider what you folks believe as a miracle an actual miracle. Like I pointed out the ministers, and such that I have talked to say they do conduct investigations of these instances just like the catholic church does. I believe that in order to be a miracle there has to be a sickness or such that is documented. You kind folks do not have any documentation and or proof to back up your claims. If you did happen to come across with such documentation I would have no problem believing. You profess to be christians and yet you continue to throw mud at me taunting me asking which master I serve. Unlike what would appear to be some of you I act upon logic, proof and common sense.

I have the right to doubt what has been stated here because there is no absolute proof that there was what I would call an instance of severe sickness. If there was in fact bonified proof of this illness and this ilness was cured I absolutely would believe it.

6bg, nobody denies that you have the right to doubt anything. But when you suddenly appear here, along with some other notorious personalities from the pit, and start demanding "evidence" and "documentation," as so many have there, how is it that you can not understand our reaction and doubts about what you say? And then there's the obvious contradiction of your own words above that you haven't and likely won't deal with.

You're just here to try to disrupt righteous discussion and service. If you weren't, you'd have shown SOME sign of it long before now.

We are under NO obligation to believe your words, when they don't jive with other "evidence" as you put it, of what your real intent truly is. We may be Christian, but we are NOT dumb, sir.

Nobody here has the time to waste pointing out evidence just so you can then deny it at will. So I guess that makes it YOUR problem to find the evidence, just like all of US did, doesn't it? How is THAT not FAIR?

[cbashooter]

God grants prayers that are rendered up in sincerity and need. He does NOT appreciate "being tested." If you had any knowledge of what you're spouting off about, you'd know that. But you don't, and yet you continue! What an absolutely STUPID thing for a grown man to do! You're a real legend in your own mind, aren't you?

No, I use sense and reason.I can't disprove divine intervention but that's not my job to prove it.it's yours.and James Randi has a million bucks waiting for you when you do.

[6bg6ga]

BTW, another miracle happens to me every time I go to confession, I am absolved of all my sins, that in itself is a miracle.I also receive a Miracle every Mass when I receive the Eucharist.You want to get real picky about it, the mere fact I was conceived, grew and was born is in itself a miracle is it not, can anyone but God do that?No, confession is a sacrament not a miracle and so is receiving communion. No, birth i not a miracle either.

[jcwit]

No, confession is a sacrament not a miracle and so is receiving communion. No, birth i not a miracle either.

Who says a sacrament cannot also be a miracle, you? I say they can be both.
So you're telling me that a piece of bread & a sip of wine, being turned into the body/flesh and blood of Christ is not a miracle? I'm sorry for your lack of faith.

Who says a birth can not be a miracle, you? I say they can be both.
Can anyone here on earth make me? Again I'm sorry for your lack of faith.

Again, quit spreading discontent!

[Boaz]

I started a similar thread in the pit . If ya'll want to argue why not go there ???

You can 'settle it ' (?) down there .
LINK TO THREAD :

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?307490-Does-our-Lord-provide-healing&p=3655304#post3655304

[Boaz]

I have seen many what I would call a miraculous healing . My mother in law had been in the hospital 4 days getting worse quickly . She was in a coma , oxygen , IV's the whole heroic effort thing . Her lead surgeon gathered the family in the lobby and told all she would not make it through the night .

6 or 7 days later she and her best friend were sitting in their favorite Mexican restaurant for their usual margarita special night . Yea , there are miracles .

[Pine Baron]

Thanks, Boaz, for bringing this back on topic.

[Blackwater]

No, I use sense and reason.I can't disprove divine intervention but that's not my job to prove it.it's yours.and James Randi has a million bucks waiting for you when you do.

You say you use "sense and reason." That's a laugh. If you did, you'd realize that observation and analysis matters. You just deny because you WANT to.

And the "Amazing Randy" thing has already been explained, but that too you deny. Or maybe you just conveniently "forgot?"

[Blackwater]

No, confession is a sacrament not a miracle and so is receiving communion. No, birth i not a miracle either.

6bg, if you can't or won't or don't accept that all life is a miracle, then you obviously haven't looked into the circumstances of creation. Science alone can give you many, many reasons why ANY life is a legitimate miracle - an improbability so many billions and billions of times against the odds, that it cannot be considered anything else BUT a miracle. Your mindset, before you even came here, was to deny and "make" us prove something you'd just deny anyway, 'till the cows come home, wasn't it?

You've contributed NOTHING here but dissent and confusion and you intended for it to be so. Once again, your comments belong in the pit, and NOT here. But you knew that before you came here, didnt' you?

[Blackwater]

6bg and cba, did either of you read the post I made about my wife's Grandad's experience in the hospital, with the old preacher who said he could stop bleeding? If you didn't, you might wanna' go back and deal with THAT one. See, if you can, if you can rationalize THAT one away, OK? This is MY challenge to YOU!

[Pine Baron]

I started a similar thread in the pit . If ya'll want to argue why not go there ???

You can 'settle it ' (?) down there .
LINK TO THREAD :

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?307490-Does-our-Lord-provide-healing&p=3655304#post3655304


Please, really, this^^^

[oldcanadice]

It is mostly ignored to the point of being hidden and forbidden knowledge, that, at the end of his life, St Thomas Aquinas repudiated the idea that logic was the foundation of faith. Similarly; there is a paper by a famous mathematician titled "The Unreasonable Effectiveness of Mathematics in the Natural Sciences" that points out that there is no reasonable explanation why mathematics -- the very embodiment of logic at its most strictly applied level -- should work out like it does. The point: If you chase the study of logic to the extreme, as for example in an extreme case of logic in theology (St. T. A.) or in a course of study of the foundations of logic at a graduate-school level of mathematics (my case), you become acutely aware that logic is not the rock-solid basis for all thought that you (and apparently some of the people here) originally were led to believe.

Get the last word: it always comes down to belief. When it's all said and done, it's experience that counts, and after that it is the question of what is to be accepted as evidence to support an experience. Most people that use them every day (including "experts") claim that statistics is the tool that does it to PREDICT outcomes of events -- which is fundamentally speaking just the OPPOSITE of what the actual mathematics of probability says. Others want "documentation" -- but again; what is that?

Biblically and in the Koran: "evidence" is sufficient when three witnesses will give the same story about the occurrence of an event. Current prosecutors consider a SINGLE witness sufficient to go to trial. Logic doesn't even enter into the picture. It has NOTHING to do with being "logical". So here is an event witnessed by my wife and about 20 people, including my eldest son.

My wife was (reluctantly) at a 'pentecostal' gathering back in the 60's due to an invitation she could not, on echumenical grounds, socially refuse. The event was held at a home and was a bit boisterous by our standards, but it proceeded along without major embarrassment. Until -- the preacher in charge looked up and said something to the effect: "There is someone here who has a back problem -- who is it?" Very spooky. No one volunteered. The preacher kept looking around, and then looked directly at my wife. She'd been had and fessed up and was told to come forward and sit in front of the preacher (and of course, in front of every one else). There is no way in the world she would have volunteered to do that, but social pressure prevailed and she did.

Long story short: From a medically corrected birth defect she had -- emphasis 'had' -- one leg somewhat shorter than the other. It was in fact a medical marvel that things were repaired to the point that she could straightly walk like everyone else. No one ever knew unless we told them, but she did suffer from back pain from it -- especially when she was pregnant.

So: said preacher sat her down, immediately placed her legs in position to show the difference in length (he could have had no clue -- there had been NO discussion between them), he held the short leg and prayed in the name of Jesus Christ, and my wife and son watched in half alarm as the short leg grew to match the longer one. yeah.

Illogical? Mass hysteria? Hypnosis? You think? Well maybe -- except she hasn't been bothered by her back since 1968. This is with a now near 80 year old woman that messes with horses on a regular basis.

So you want evidence guys: how's that?

[Blackwater]

What a great and VERY complete and apt post. Both the first and 2nd parts! Thank you. I knew there were more stories out there, and I have a distinct sense there are a lot more that people are holding back, lest someone cast an aspersion toward them. But if we have no more strength in our faith than that, what kind of Christian are we, really?

So c'mon, guys, give us your own experiences. Miracles aren't common, but they're not really all that rare, either. They're exceptions, but far from unknown to all of us. That along makes them a very large number, even though they're still exceptions to the everyday rule. Nobody here will scoff, I can assure you, except maybe the usual suspects, who aren't here for any sort of edification anyway, but simply to argue and scoff. With what Christ bore for us - the Cross and death - can we let a little cynical scoffing deter us from what we're supposed to be about? I think not.

[Pine Baron]

Suffice it to say. I'm alive and I shouldn't be. No "proof" offered no "evidence" given. Thank you Jesus for my Salvation. All glory to God. Amen.

[Boaz]

Suffice it to say. I'm alive and I shouldn't be. No "proof" offered no "evidence" given. Thank you Jesus for my Salvation. All glory to God. Amen.

I agree . The telling of miracles is inspiring to me but I need no proof . We are all miracles .

[cbashooter]

You say you use "sense and reason." That's a laugh. If you did, you'd realize that observation and analysis matters. You just deny because you WANT to.

And the "Amazing Randy" thing has already been explained, but that too you deny. Or maybe you just conveniently "forgot?"

I didn't realize this original topic was under "our Chapel"
I apologize I should have never entered the thread I just thought it was under "our town". I have opened up a can of worms.


There's no such thing as a miracle, never has been never will be proved and all of you guys know it. if The wishful thinking makes your day go better enjoy........

If you use the reasoning for your miracles for your casting hobby you could reason that demons made the voids in the bullets and there's no way I could prove to you that the demons didn't because I can't see them and you know for sure they did them. And when you prayed they went away.

Just saying....

Don't get me wrong most of my best my friends are conservative religious people. The values we both share are very similar the only argument is why we have them.
I should have stuck with the deal I have with my Christian friends I stay out of their prayer conversations and they stay out of the science .

[jcwit]

I didn't realize this original topic was under "our Chapel"
I apologize I should have never entered the thread I just thought it was under "our town". I have opened up a can of worms.


There's no such thing as a miracle, never has been never will be proved and all of you guys know it. if The wishful thinking makes your day go better enjoy........

If you use the reasoning for your miracles for your casting hobby you could reason that demons made the voids in the bullets and there's no way I could prove to you that the demons didn't because I can't see them and you know for sure they did them. And when you prayed they went away.

Just saying....

Don't get me wrong most of my best my friends are conservative religious people. The values we both share are very similar the only argument is why we have them.
I should have stuck with the deal I have with my Christian friends I stay out of their prayer conversations and they stay out of the science .

Believe as you wish, but I feel sorry for your soul.

May God have mercy on you and your soul!

[jcwit]

This is one reason I pray for

God, lead all souls to Heaven, especially those most in need of your mercy!

[6bg6ga]

Praise Be! I have finally seen the light. I woke up this morning...must be a miracle. Everything is a miracle! Thank you people for finally making me see that I like you folks can call anything a miracle.

[DCP]

Praise Be! I have finally seen the light. I woke up this morning...must be a miracle. Everything is a miracle! Thank you people for finally making me see that I like you folks can call anything a miracle.

What does this help? Everything is a miracle (really)and no one ever said that here. Why do you want to antagonize everyone?

[Blackwater]

I didn't realize this original topic was under "our Chapel"
I apologize I should have never entered the thread I just thought it was under "our town". I have opened up a can of worms.


There's no such thing as a miracle, never has been never will be proved and all of you guys know it. if The wishful thinking makes your day go better enjoy........

If you use the reasoning for your miracles for your casting hobby you could reason that demons made the voids in the bullets and there's no way I could prove to you that the demons didn't because I can't see them and you know for sure they did them. And when you prayed they went away.

Just saying....

Don't get me wrong most of my best my friends are conservative religious people. The values we both share are very similar the only argument is why we have them.
I should have stuck with the deal I have with my Christian friends I stay out of their prayer conversations and they stay out of the science .

Well, I respect your apology, but your leaving insults and declarations really don't have any sting, because we know wherefrom they come.

Thank you for the simple respect sufficient to not disrupt the Chapel here. I DO appreciate that, sincerely.

[Blackwater]

Praise Be! I have finally seen the light. I woke up this morning...must be a miracle. Everything is a miracle! Thank you people for finally making me see that I like you folks can call anything a miracle.

Mocking may be your stock in trade, but it's VERY out of place here in The Chapel. But apparently, you came here TO be out of place. So be it. We Christians have been through FAR worse, beyond compare to simple atheists intruding where they have no business and no reason to be, other than their own grandiose and peculiar inward motivations and hubris. We will outlast you by millenea. But nothing matters to you but you show your haughtiness "right now." No self control, no dignity, no morals, no ethics .... only your hubris and haughtiness. Sure hope you are kept warm at night with blankets. Your attitude is as cold as the depths of space.

[jcwit]

And many will fall short of the Glory of God.

[GhostHawk]

Walks up, pounds sign into the dirt that reads "DANG IT, QUIT FEEDING THE TROLLS"

Sigh.

The very fact that I am here is a Miracle, the fact that I am 5 foot 8 instead of 4 foot 2 is a miracle.

As to the way this thread has deteriorated into troll baiting and faith slamming.

Well all I can say is I am ashamed of all of you who took part in it.

[johnson1942]

we are in mixed company here, not in church with like minded people who love and with their own eyes and minds and hearts seen the reality of God and His Son. here any one with ability to punch keys and insert anything even if it is rude and out of place. their is no punishment or anything so give the donkeys a podium and they will bay all day. we just have to put up with it when we are trying to have a serious conversation and share things to encourage others in between the noise. we are not better than them we are just trying to have a mature serious conversation with a bunch of baying *******es cutting loose.

[Boaz]

It is amazing . I seem to be able to pay no attention to them at all , they don't bother me with the unbelievable stupid garbage they spew forth . I understand them but I don't understand the ones here that support and encourage them by arguing ., It's what they beg for .

[Pine Baron]

Praise Be! I have finally seen the light. I woke up this morning...must be a miracle. Everything is a miracle! Thank you people for finally making me see that I like you folks can call anything a miracle.
I'm so sorry for you. It must be hard going through this life as a cynic, unable to see the blessings you have received and the reasons for them. Please try opening your heart just a little.
And, yes, everyday we wake up, both feet hit the ground, we are granted a clean slate. it's a miracle and a blessing.

[Clay M]

To give you a perspective, on where I am coming from. My daughter has been deathly ill throughout most of her adult life.
Also during the seventeen years I spent in ministry.



I don't subscribe to any health and wealth gospel.
I know it sells well on main street and is a huge money maker.

I also notice when people are diagnosed with cancer , most go see a doctor.

For me to believe any other way would make me angry with God.

I am not angry with God, Just don't believe He works that way in most cases.

[jcwit]

To give you a perspective, on where I am coming from. My daughter has been deathly ill throughout most of her adult life.
Also during the seventeen years I spent in ministry.



I don't subscribe to any health and wealth gospel.
I know it sells well on main street and is a huge money maker.

I also notice when people are diagnosed with cancer , most go see a doctor.

For me to believe any other way would make me angry with God.

I am not angry with God, Just don't believe He works that way in most cases.

Then in my opinion you have a twisted idea of Christ and his teaching, and his and disciples ability to perform miracles of healing. Do you think God just shut it off when the disciples died?

But you do have the right to believe as you wish, this is America after all!

[Blackwater]

Walks up, pounds sign into the dirt that reads "DANG IT, QUIT FEEDING THE TROLLS"

Sigh.

The very fact that I am here is a Miracle, the fact that I am 5 foot 8 instead of 4 foot 2 is a miracle.

As to the way this thread has deteriorated into troll baiting and faith slamming.

Well all I can say is I am ashamed of all of you who took part in it.

Well, Ghost, you have my honest apology for my part in it, but all I'd ask is that you understand my reasons for it. I've posted another thread on this, so won't go into it here. This is one of those things that has been debated both pro and con for millenea now, and to date, there's been no clear resolution of which way is best. To me, that usually indicates that it's a judgment issue, and we all know those can be hit and miss.

So please accept my apology, and in the thread I started on my apology, I think you'll see my reasons and motivations. It's not pleasant, but Christ never promised us things would ever be pleasant here. But thanks for your honest opinion, even if it differs from mine. At least I think you'll find some satisfaction in my suggestion that we forthwith cease all responses to these tolls. So I guess I finally agree with you, actually. Thanks.

[jcwit]

Meanwhile quit hating poor people and people who don't have the money to dress like you.
Yes I remember that.



Who says I hate anyone, I just feel folks should dress their best when entering a Godly & Holy sanctuary.

You seem to have a problem with that.

I realize it makes little difference to God "I Guess", but then I RESPECT my lord to try my best in all things including dress.

[Clay M]

I have said before I am a Calvinist.
God is sovereign.

Yes I believe in predestination..

So believe as you will.

But you are not going to manipulate God.

[jcwit]

But you are not going to manipulate God.

Well that is the truth!

Neither is anyone else!

[Clay M]

I see that know one here cares anything about the plight of my daughter.
I don't know from one week to the next if she will live or die.
I don't believe in Sooth Sayers,snake oil salesman, or any other Bogus religious person.



I doubt my daughter will fare well in the future.

The so called Christians are so worried about how bad the world has become,
Well no worse than under the Roman empire..

Trust the God you say you believe in for once.

Remember , just because something is a religious system, doesn't mean it has anything at all with the teachings of Christ.

Politics and religion..It is obviously some think Jesus would be a republican.

Hahahahahhaha...

We are all about that Jesus , but God forbid that we have a health care system for poor people. After all that is a privilege and not a right..

Do you really think that is what Jesus would say.????

But .. it might hurt that pocketbook so let em die.

[johnson1942]

WOW, manipulate God. again WOW, how is praying in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ manipulating God. im glad i accepted the Bible as the complete truth and followed the red outlined words of Christ in it. nepoleon said it right even a a secular dictator of france. man will believe anything except if its in the Bible.

[Clay M]

I am done. I wish I had never wasted my time on this place.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

To Clay M: I'm really sorry to hear about your daughter's plight, and I will pray for her. Here, on this forum, we have Christians of may different stripes. Somehow, for the most part, we all seem to get along, putting aside the less important differences of doctrine and concentrating on the larger principle of realizing that Christ reigns supreme and that His will be done. I am one who believes that God may chose to answer a request for healing by using the medical profession. Although there exist naysayers here, there are many in the medical profession including doctors who believe in God, recognizing that often severe illnesses and injuries have been cured or healed by something beyond their ability. It's easy to tell that, despite you having been a minister for a number of years, you are hurting and grieving for your daughter. Having that experience in your background you know that God is capable of anything including healing her if he so desires. We must keep bringing her case before him.

[Boaz]

To Clay M: I'm really sorry to hear about your daughter's plight, and I will pray for her. Here, on this forum, we have Christians of may different stripes. Somehow, for the most part, we all seem to get along, putting aside the less important differences of doctrine and concentrating on the larger principle of realizing that Christ reigns supreme and that His will be done. I am one who believes that God may chose to answer a request for healing by using the medical profession. Although there exist naysayers here, there are many in the medical profession including doctors who believe in God, recognizing that often severe illnesses and injuries have been cured or healed by something beyond their ability. It's easy to tell that, despite you having been a minister for a number of years, you are hurting and grieving for your daughter. Having that experience in your background you know that God is capable of anything including healing her if he so desires. We must keep bringing her case before him.

Thank you Der Gebirgsjager . I agree .

[jcwit]

I seldom post that I pray for anyone, does not mean that I do not.

Also remember, always pray that not my/our will be done, but that thy will be done.

We seldom know what God's total picture is.

[Clay M]

The only prayer I ever pray anymore is the Lords Pray.
That is it.

[GhostHawk]

As I said in that other thread, I'll say it again here. Blackwater sir, you owe me nothing.

I was just trying to remind a few of us that most at least are adults and should act like it.
Poking and feeding trolls just encourages them and gets more trolls to show up. But I also know it is hard to let them have the field without at least an attempt to rout them.

No apology necessary, but I give you credit for it sir.


Well, Ghost, you have my honest apology for my part in it, but all I'd ask is that you understand my reasons for it. I've posted another thread on this, so won't go into it here. This is one of those things that has been debated both pro and con for millenea now, and to date, there's been no clear resolution of which way is best. To me, that usually indicates that it's a judgment issue, and we all know those can be hit and miss.

So please accept my apology, and in the thread I started on my apology, I think you'll see my reasons and motivations. It's not pleasant, but Christ never promised us things would ever be pleasant here. But thanks for your honest opinion, even if it differs from mine. At least I think you'll find some satisfaction in my suggestion that we forthwith cease all responses to these tolls. So I guess I finally agree with you, actually. Thanks.

[Blackwater]

Thanks, Ghost. Without tonal inflection and facial expressions, it's sometimes hard to discern exactly what is meant by our words. Add in the fact that when many of us log on, we're tired, and "resting," and not quite at our sharpest because of that, and it's a wonder we can communicate at all here, at least in a way. I have a notion that if we could all meet face to face, we'd have a much clearer appreciation for each other. I know it's taken me a long time to figure I had some semblance of a handle on most here. Welcome to the "new millenium" I guess? Yeah, I DO feel like an anachronism these days, but one day, we'll all enter the realm where time and times no longer matter. At least in some ways, I kind'a look forward to that day. I doubt we can appreciate all the revelations we'll receive then. Until then, I guess we'll all hobble along, seeking much and finding a little. Seems to be the only real game in town?

[Pine Baron]

The only prayer I ever pray anymore is the Lords Pray.
That is it.
Matthew 6:9–13, for sure. However I personally can't stop there, no matter how hard I try. :)

[Blackwater]

JC, your point is one we so often need to remember, and just simply don't. God sees SO much more and further, and understands so much more and completely than we do, that when we ask for what we want, it's always from OUR perspective. But God's love extends over all, and he has to take so many, many things into consideration than what we do, that it's a wonder we get so many answered prayers, just as we request them, at all. Truly, this is yet another demonstration of His extreme Love, that we probably don't even have the simple ABILITY to understand! And yet, we so often forget that.

Who among us, IF we knew our loved one who, say, dies in an auto accident, would be so much more comfortable with it IF we knew they had something in their DNA that would later have given them a very painful and antagonistic form of cancer or something else equally as bad? Maybe it might have been more than they could have borne, and thus, God let them die in another, less pitiful way, even if it was more of a shock to their loved ones.

All sorts of scenarios could be presented to illustrate how narrow and personal our prayers usually are, and how broad and deep God's love truly is. Deniers call this "rationalization," but we who KNOW Christianity realize it's just the simple facts, facts those deniers simply refuse to accept. So how could they see things differently from THEIR perspective? They can't. They've just chosen to limit themselves, and all the while pretending to be "open to anything." But they're not. They're not open to accepting faith or the reality and rationality of it.

In the same way, though, we Christians can be just as closed to accepting our position, and just want what we want, and even among ourselves, rail at the outrage of what we call "misfortune," as though we thought God had turned His face from us at that time. Nothing could be further from the truth, though, and it's always we who are wrong. Usually it's by just refusing to realize that God has MUCH more to take into consideration than we do, and that sometimes, it's better in the long run to accept sorrow now rather than even more later.

This is something that's taken me an awfully long time and a lot of years to "get" finally. And I may forget it 10 minutes from now, but at least I know I'll return to it not too terribly long after that. One of the great gifts of faith is reassurance that whatever happens, it IS for the best, even when we just can't see it.

So thanks. These things have a way of escaping us, and have sometimes been the "reason" some leave Christianity. But when they do that, they never could have had much of a grasp on it to start with, I think. Only REAL understanding CAN keep us fairly straight, at least, given our tendency toward willfulness that seems to pervade our species. Truly, humility is the key to real Faith, because it lets things fall into their natural and inevitable positions within us. The humble can see SO much more and farther than the haughty! And we can profit ONLY from what we see. Can there be more evidence of God's true love of and for us? It just takes some deep thinking to realize things like this, which are so critical to developing and holding real Faith. Truly, our God really IS an AWESOME God!

[Clay M]

It is necessary for us all to believe in free will. We have to believe that as humans, but it is a myth.
God is in control of the this world.
Predestination is a reality.
From your genetics to your environment.
The sovereignty of God prevails.

Believe whatever makes you happy.

But believe this .God made you and God is in control of the game.

Destiny is in the hand of God.

Is this world corrupt? of course.

Is it worse than the Roman empire?Not by a long shot.

If you get a chance, study Systematic Theology in a real accredited school.

who knows, you might even learn something new.

I have no fear of anything that takes place in this world, because I am certain who is in control..

[jcwit]

Predestination is a reality.

If in fact this is true as you believe there is no reason for me to do anything good.

I could go out and rob & kill as it's all predestinded anyway.



Why to you bring this to our chapel?

Satin is alive and doing very well.


I see your lurking just getting ready to pounce!

[jcwit]

I am done. I wish I had never wasted my time on this place.

Wonder what the meaning of this post you madewas!

Your last 6 posts on this forum has been nothing more than trying to create havo within Our Chapel.

[Clay M]

I see how much you love the poor and those who are unlike you.


Do you really call yourself a Christian?

Do you also hate the blacks and the gays too?

I believe you are just another bogus person who wants to call themselves a Christian.

God know the truth though.

[jcwit]

I see how much you love the poor and those who are unlike you.

You base that on what?????????????????

[jcwit]

Do you really call yourself a Christian?


Yes I do!

Do You? And what do you base that on!

[jcwit]

Do you also hate the gays too?

Hate is a very strong word and you really seem to like to use it.

Gays, Read your bible and draw your own conclusion!

[jcwit]

Do you also hate the blacks too?

Again your use of the word hate is over the top, but it shows where you yourself comes from.

Reharding Blacks, I have some very close friends who who are black. That should answer that issue.

[jcwit]

I see you are still lurking getting ready to pounce. Why not go to the pit to sow discourse!

[Boaz]

I would be glad to start ya'll a thread in the pit ?

[jcwit]

Wonder what the meaning of this post you made was?

Your last 6 posts on this forum has been nothing more than trying to create havo within Our Chapel.

Never answered my question.

[jcwit]

I would be glad to start ya'll a thread in the pit ?

Drag him down there!

If you can, it would be a Blessing.

[dtknowles]

I am sorry for any discord I might have caused in the Chapel. I hope you can forgive me as it was not my intent. I made a mistake and have done what I can to correct it. I want to thank the Mod who helped delete my posts to this sub forum. Sorry, I respect the Chapel and did not mean to bring noise to this fine place. I come here and listen but rarely post. Keep up Gods work, thank you. Again Mea Culpa forgive me. Thanks

Tim

[Clay M]

Keep in mind that Calvinism is a main doctrine of the Baptist and the Presbyterians.

Not something I just made up.


I apologize for any insulting remarks , but you insulted my faith.


You don't have to agree with me, but saying Calvinism is false is a bit over the top, as it is indeed a main theme within scripture.


Read Ephesians..

[jcwit]

Another branch out started by a man by the name of John Calvin. He was a successor to Martin Luther.

I'm guessing in his mind Luther didn't go far enough.

[jcwit]

Now is it possible for this thread to get back on track as to what the OP ment it to be?

[Blackwater]

Good suggestion, JC. And anyone who is so blind as to not see healing when it's right there in front of them, is clearly being willful and NOT using their powers of observation and analysis. It doesn't happen every day in our lives, but it DOES happen somewhere to someone every day. How could a truly loving God NOT behave in this manner? On the 7th day, it's said He rested, but it does NOT say he fell asleep! He still works, just not quite as hard as He did in the first 6. Mostly, I think He was right to leave this world mostly up to us. After all, He gave us all we really NEED to make things "right." We simply choose wrong, often in the full knowledge of what we're doing. Sort of an "I don't care, I'm gonna' do it anyway" sort of thing. And we've all done this. Some just try to base their whole lives and attitudes on it. Most simply don't take it quite that far.

So to those who'd deny that miracles DO indeed occur, all I can really do, in the end, is turn that question around and ask THEM, "How could they NOT?" Not many of them expect this, and not one I've ever met can answer this one. Kind'a puts their attitude and perspective in better focus, doesn't it?

[Clay M]

I don't normally do this , but felt impressed by God's Spirit .
I am doing this as an encouragement for many who have lost loved ones or are struggling with a Spiritual problem.

We live in both a physical and a spiritual world.
Remember Jesus said, " My kingdom is not of this realm"

I believe it is clear the physical healings Jesus did throughout his ministry here on earth were to point the way to God.

Do I believe miracles can occur today? I believe they can but is i not the norm.

I do however believe that spiritual healings occur all the time.
People can definitely be healed for drug addiction, alcoholism, pornography addiction, gluttony and
hatred of other people, just to name a few.

I don't believe an any special incantations, but I do believe in a genuine faith in Christ, and the desire to change ones life.

The Kingdom of God is here around us as well as in the eschatological future.

Most all of us have a sickness of one form or another,and Christ can bring about healing and change.

I love the Sermon on the Mount. I would have to say that is my favorite scripture.

My wife and I have a dear friend who is a devoted Christian.
She was recently diagnosed with Breast cancer, and had a double mastectomy .
They she learned the cancer had already spread and has to take Chemo therapy.

He sprit is still strong. The cancer was unable to affect that.
Will she live, who knows.

We all live and we all die, it is a fact of life.
If Jesus healed all physical ailment, we would all live forever here on earth,
the medical profession would be out of business, and all the churches would always be full.

Keep the faith, and be strong in spirit. If your spirit is sick,then work hard with Jesus help to
to make it well again.

Remember Jesus said, " My Kingdom is not of this Realm",and neither is yours..

All the best with love,
Clay M

I believe I feel Christ calling me back to do my work, but I need more time to heal first.

[jcwit]

By Golly Clay I like and agree with all that you posted, How Bout That!!!!!

One thing we all forget "usually" is to ask for God's will be done, not necessarily ours.

As they would say in England "I guess" Good show chap!

[Blackwater]

I absolutely respect your view, Clay, but my own experience just simply differs from yours, and I DO believe in them. Sometimes I suspect that it's just our attitudes and beliefs that sometimes keeps us from seeing things that do occur around us. Many agnostics and atheists, for instance, think belief in miracles of healing here and now is just a "mind game" some of us believers play with ourselves. But it's honestly not.

What we see, and how we interpret it, are two separate issues. It's certainly true that two honest and well meaning and faithful people can see the same circumstance, and interpret it differently. Who is right? We'll probably never know until this life is behind us, at least for sure. But in my own time, I've seen some things that absolutely defy all reason and logic, and they've stumped and actually kind'a startled the doctors, too.

So I have no problem with your not believing in miracles. I think God gave us our mental abilities and propensity for observation and analysis after finding questions for us to ask, to advance our sciences and understanding of the world around us, and to help us use what He gave us for our health and maintenance and sustenance, and also to provide a measure of happiness and satisfaction for ourselves. And I think He expects us to USE these things to our benefit to the full extent of their capabilities.

I also, however, reserve the right to do as He obviously instructed us to do, and simply ASK for a miracle when we really truly want and need one. Whether He answers it as we ask Him is up to Him, and sometimes he simply says "No" to us, and we have to accept that. Acceptance shouldn't be all that terribly difficult, though, when we realize that He sees and knows far further and more than we can, and knows much more what is truly best for us in the long run. He made us as He did for reasons, and I suspect He did so for many reasons we can't possibly understand here in this finite and tangible world. He exists on planes we can't know and don't even have much of a real clue about, far above the plane we live on.

I believe His words when he told us to pray and He would hear in Heaven, and would answer our prayers. He did NOT say he'd grant us every request. Parents get asked all sorts of things by their children, but they have to deny many of those requests. I think it's very much the same with God and us, his children in this realm. I agree with you that when He says "No," and lets things proceed without a miracle, that we simply just have to accept those things in good and reasonable faith that He really does know best. But sometimes, I believe to the bottom of my heart and the center of the marrow in my bones, that miracles really DO occur today, in our world, and that they are really not terribly uncommon. I do NOT believe they are granted willy nilly every time we ask. We have our wants and desires, and God has his reasons for granting or rejecting our pleas.

I think all we have here is an honest and earnest difference in opinion and experience, and maybe a little bit of difference in attitude. What else could be more common and expected among believers that these? We'll never all sing off the exact same sheet of music until we all agree to the same song, and that just isn't in the cards, it seems, even among us Christians. We're STILL human, after all, and each one's experience differs from all others. How cold we NOT come to disagree on some things, and yet agree on others???

But it doesn't have to be a disagreeable disagreement, and your post seems to be honest and earnest enough for me to take it seriously and honestly. Thanks. We can never learn anything from those who agree with us on everything, and don't HAVE to disagree disagreeably, either. Personally, I thank you for your honesty and input. As long as a person has real faith, I have no problem with their expressing their dissent here at all, and I doubt anyone else here does either. You've paid me a high honor by disagreeing with me and stating your case honestly and without any sort of hedging. I really respect that. It's only those interloper who have no faith who I believe have no place here, and I know from many of your posts over time that you're a man of real faith.

In my book, you're one of the "good guys," and I'm grateful for you. That we disagree on a point in contention is no big surprise, or shouldn't be, and it's certainly no reason for us to quarrel over it. Those who come looking for a quarrel, I'm willing to do battle with on any field they choose. But among us Christians, there is no reason to quarrel over simple disagreements in interpretation. And I think we were cautioned to not do that, weren't we? But admonished to seek answers and "study to show thyself approved." So I'm perfectly ambivalent that you'd disagree with me and others here. No biggie here on my part. It's just something that's naturally going to occur when we discuss among ourselves. And I'm good with that.

[jcwit]

Blackwater, wondering what it is you do not agree with Clay on? Just wondering, I thought it was an excellent post.

Mayhap I'm missing something.

[Clay M]

A lot of what I believe in has to do with eschatology and the Sovereignty of God.
probably my training in the years at at New Orleans Baptist Theological Seminary.

I had some very excellent teachers, but most were indeed Calvinists.

Believe me I use to be very Armenian , it took me many years of study to become a full blown Calvanist.

No matter to me,as I have said I don't have a corner on knowledge.
I am only drawing from many years of training and experience.

What works for you suits me fine.

I only hope God will grant me the time and physical ability to sever once again.
Ministry can be very taxing and draining..

I feel people drawing off of my spiritual energy.
I am usually spent after a sermon.

[Pine Baron]

Oh great now I have to look up "eschatology".
It's tough being a simple man with a simple faith. Took me a long time to get here and I'm not done yet.

[jcwit]

Oh great now I have to look up "eschatology".
It's tough being a simple man with a simple faith. Took me a long time to get here and I'm not done yet.


Hehehe, did that last night.

[Blackwater]

Only thing I'd disagree with you on, Clay, is the prevalence of miracles. I think they happen more often than you seem to. No problem here with someone seeing it diffferently than I have, though. This is one of those areas where we might all learn something form other devout believers, I think? With faith so tested and tentative in so many today, it's probably be no big mystery why miracles might be scarce, and might vary from area to area in our world. I've been very much blessed to be raised among pretty simple but productive and inquisitive people, of real faith, and devout convictions. Mine wasn't always so strong as it has become, but I paid attention along the way and got to be part of and see some really mysterious things that nobody can really explain, like the old preacher who stopped the blood leakage in my wife's grandad. And at the time, I could feel "something," and didn't realize fully just what it was. Was it the Holy Spirit at work, doing a miracle? I can't certify that, but I believe it was. Could I be wrong? Sure, but I don't think so. It could be argued from now to doomsday, and no resolution would be sure to come of it. We just see what we see and notice what we notice and explain it as best we can. Have I been privy to more than my share of these "miracles?" Could be. Why? I don't have the foggiest! All I know is what I've seen and experienced, and I'll relate at least some of that when asked, or asked to support my views. That's really all I CAN do. But have a problem with others in the matter? Not unless they're just trying to promote un-belief. Among believers, this is the kind of subject that'll probably always vary from person to person based on the differences in our experience, and I have no real problem with that. Why does God allow such discrepancies? I don't know. All I know is, like I said, what I've seen, and how I felt, and how I think I've reasonably interpreted all of it. That others may see differently is, I think, a given.

For that matter, I don't think any 2 Christians really think exactly alike in all issues of our faith. We're all on a different point on the learning curve we all have to walk through to get to where we want to be one day. If I lived to be 150 I STILL wouldn't have it all figured out, I think. Probably not by a long shot.

This is why it's so good and necessary for us all to discuss the serious issues amongst ourselves. How could it NOT be edifying, in the long run if not always in the short?

[ga41]

as someone who has known Clay for over 40 years, I will say that I know a bit about Clay's family and the health struggles and the spiritual journey. I've been on the Calvinist ( read God is in control ) side for my entire life. No one I would rather have " in the foxhole" with me than Clay M.

My nephew suffered a battle with Ewing's sarcoma for over 4 years. It's a rare form of bone cancer that usually attacks younger children and is usually fatal. Sam was first diagnosed at age 20 and it was first felt it couldn't be Ewing's due to his age. Sam was an awesome happy young man, a good man...as good as we can be on this earth. He and Mom and Dad had a great relationship. He was a triathlete and a winning smile who was loved and loved everyone. And then ....cancer... The week he was diagnosed, he had planned to ask his girlfriend to marry him that weekend.... He decided not to quit and they got engaged as planned ( I found out later the doctor felt he had a 15% chance to make 12 months). Over the years he made many trips to MD Anderson and Emory Hospital. He and Abby got married on a beautiful summer evening in Atlanta. They were fighters, we were prayer warriors. His grandfather on his Mom's side a God fearing Baptist minister and a wonderful mentor in the wood working world to me...Alas time went by and Sam began to slip and we knew it was going to end mercifully for Sam, Sam missed Thanksgiving in 2010, then Christmas we were told he was much worse. Sam was an Auburn graduate and Auburn was fighting for the national Championship, furthermore, his Dad, my brother's birthday was 1/12. Sam lived to see both one more time. The night he passed, his Mom and he sang hymns of praise... I can't imagine... At the funeral, when I walked up and hugged my brother and told him how sorry I was. His reflection and wisdom spoke loudly, his words as best I can remember( he is a lawyer) " I had a gift many rarely get, many times I get calls from friends who have had their children ripped from their lives in an instant without a chance to say goodby...... I had over 4 years to show my son love and say goodby" Friends , don't ever miss a chance to make a memory.
My wife and I lost a grandson at 9 months suddenly from SIDS....sometimes the answers elude,.My only thought , God knows the very dark future and some don't need to have go through it
Sometimes God's ways are not our ways
John chap 17 says it all

[Blackwater]

What a poignant story, Ga41. Thanks.