weight sorting/annealing questions

[Haywire Haywood]

My casting is getting good enough from a cosmetic standpoint that I am starting to get more particular about what I throw back in the pot. I weight sorted a few tonight for the first time and had what I think is a pretty wide spread. Casting was done from a Lee C358-180-RF 6 banger group buy mold using straight WW. Extreme spread was 182.0-185.0 among 19 boolits.

How much spread is enough to start making a noticable difference in hunting accuracy?

On another subject, I annealed my first batch of boolits a couple of days ago. They were from a Lee 458-405-F of straight ACWW. I cooked them in a toaster oven at 400 for 1 hour and then turned it off and let them cool as the oven cooled. I don't have a hardness tester, but I can't tell the difference by marking them with my fingernail. Should I be able to?

thanks,
Ian

[Wayne Smith]

Well, Ian, 10% of 185 is 18.5, so you are looking at around 2% variance. If you're not using them for serious competitive work I don't think you will see enough of a difference in impact to notice. I doubt I could hold that close, and many rifles won't shoot that close.

Take 'em out and shoot 'em! Then let us know what you conclude.

[Haywire Haywood]

Thanks, I was wondering when "attention-to-detail" made the ugly transformation to "anal" when it came to weight sorting.

Still looking for more input tho from you master casters out there. Wadda Yoo tink? :mrgreen:

Ian

[David R]

I don't know why you are anealing them, most of us harden em.

As fars your ES in weight, try pouring them a little hotter, it might make those #s go down. I usually get about =- 1/2 to 1 grain. I cast em so they look like they are galvanized, not quite crystalised or frosted.

David

[Haywire Haywood]

I was annealing for BP 45-90 loads, I found that I got the best looking boolits at around 600 and they started to get the frosted look as temps approached 650. I'll try that and see what happens. What throws me off is that everything I read says that WW like much hotter temps.. in the 800 range. I get downright grainy results that high.

Ian

[SharpsShooter]

[/QUOTE]On another subject, I annealed my first batch of boolits a couple of days ago. They were from a Lee 458-405-F of straight ACWW. I cooked them in a toaster oven at 400 for 1 hour and then turned it off and let them cool as the oven cooled. I don't have a hardness tester, but I can't tell the difference by marking them with my fingernail. Should I be able to?

thanks,
Ian[/QUOTE]


The Lyman Cast Boolit Handbook says that ACWW are 9 BNH. If you anneal them with the oven method they will be somewhat softer than that number. Given that pure lead is a 5 BNH, it would be relatively safe to say they would be 7-8 BNH if your oven temperature is close. I cast all my BPCR boolits from ACWW and anneal them in this manner and it works rather well.

:coffee:

[wills]

Sort the boolits into groups within a half grain. xgrains .0-4, xgrains.5-9 keep them in groups, load and shoot them that way

[Haywire Haywood]

The Lyman Cast Boolit Handbook says that ACWW are 9 BNH.

Interesting, I've been reading that ACWW were in the 12-13 range and annealing brought them down to 9ish...

Ian

[SharpsShooter]

Interesting, I've been reading that ACWW were in the 12-13 range and annealing brought them down to 9ish...

Ian


Haywire,

I don't have a hardness tester yet, it's on the gotta get list. Old Man Lyman's book (Third Edition) says WW are composed of 95.5% lead, 0.5% tin and 4% antimony that yeilds a BNH of 9. 10:1 alloy, is 91% lead and 9% tin yeilds a BNH of 11.5.

If the above is true and my understanding of the annealing process is correct then annealed, ACWW would fall between 5 BNH (pure lead) and 9 BNH of WW or somewhere around 7-8 BNH.

:coffee:

[David R]

Send me one and I will test it. Sent a hundred and I'll buy a 45-70 to test em.

David

[Haywire Haywood]

Send me one and I will test it.

PM me an addy and I'll send you a before and after sample to test. :-)

thanks,
Ian

[Dye]

Haywire
What is the alloy you using? Is it w/w with tin, w/w clamp on type,w/w glue on type,
or a mix of all. I will run a few and check the hardness of them and post the results in a week or so. The alloy needs at least that much time to stabalize.
Be carefull Dye

[Haywire Haywood]

I'm using clamp on WW with no tin added and then I have a batch with 1% tin added.

Ian

[SharpsShooter]

Send me one and I will test it. Sent a hundred and I'll buy a 45-70 to test em.

David


It would be interesting to me also. Post the results when you have time.

Thanks

[swheeler]

I think it depends on the wheel weights you are getting. The following is from clip on ww of current production(maybe current-who knows how long they stockpile them)
ww- aged up 30 days=11BHN
ww- aged up 15 days= 10.58
ww- aged up 7-10 minutes10.4 BHN
All bhn's are average of five ingots tested. I found this interesting as I had read where someone posted here that freshly cast ww was approx the same as pure lead. Also a year or so ago I had sent a couple bullets to Bass to test for me, he reported a 17 BHN, I tested 5 bullets out of the same alloy and got a 16.72 avg BHN, close enough for me.
ww- water quenched-24 hrs age up=16.6

[swheeler]

something I did find interesting was that water quenching bullets from a 6 cavity mold gave readings seperated by as much as 5 points(11 to 16+) I'm guessing the 11 bhn is the bullet from the first cavity filled, coolest when quenched. The water quenched bullets from a single cavity mold tested 16.6BHN with a max variation in hardness of .6 point. Looks to me you need a near perfect rythum to get bullets of equal hardness.

[Haywire Haywood]

Water quenching WW is a surface hardening, right? I've heard that sizing will undo the hardening to some extent.

If it seems that I'm picking your collective brains, it's only because I am. [smilie=s:

Ian

[swheeler]

It has to be more than suface hardening, because I file a flat into the bullet to test, so if it was only surface hardening I should get a reading the same as ww.

[David R]

The way I understand it, Sizing the lead will work soften it. You can see it if you size an over size boolit. the lead will get softer where you wrork it. Try it.

David

[Ken O]

Here is a referance sight someone posted a while ago, it answers some questions:
cast bullet hardness (http://www.lasc.us/CastBulletNotes.htm)

[Haywire Haywood]

Now that is a site that I will be spending some time reading.. Much useful information that I won't have to pry out of you fellows... :mrgreen:

BTW, they list ACWW at 13 bhn, water quenched WW at 18. I'll be interested in finding out what mine are testing at when I send David my samples. I have been driving them gas checked to 1850 with no leading.


Take 'em out and shoot 'em! Then let us know what you conclude.
Ok, will do that tomorrow. I loaded up 4 groups of 3. In two of the groups, the boolits weigh exactly the same. In the other two, I chose 1 from each end of the spectrum and one from the middle. I'll drag out my chronograph and get the ES from the groups too. I need to know what I'm getting from that load anyway.. I'll probably be hunting with it next month.

Ian

[JohnH]

Water quenching WW is a surface hardening, right? I've heard that sizing will undo the hardening to some extent. Ian

In answer to the first question, no. Water quenching works because it freezes the anitmony/lead lattice where the antimony is most intertwined with the lead. Left to aircool, the antimony rows into a longer crystal, exposing more lead in the lattice, making the bullet softer. As the anitmony is spread evenly through the alloy, the hardening is throughout the bullet, not just on the surface.

Sizing will reduce the hardening a tad, but the area beneath the surface layer that is affected will remain it's original hardness. I doubt seriously that any kind of commonly available tester can distinguish the hardness difference, as we are talking about .002"-.006" of depth at most. While that is probably deep enough it could matter on the rifling, how would one test it for hardness as it is like the reverse of case hardening. Instead of a hard layer over a softer core, we have a softer layer reinforced by a harder core.

Annealing is going to give you a softer bullet, but for your purposes, wheel weight mixed 1 to 1 with lead will give the same hardness without the annealing process.

[Haywire Haywood]

In answer to the first question, no. Water quenching works because it freezes the anitmony/lead lattice where the antimony is most intertwined with the lead. Left to aircool, the antimony rows into a longer crystal, exposing more lead in the lattice, making the bullet softer. As the anitmony is spread evenly through the alloy, the hardening is throughout the bullet, not just on the surface.

Thanks, looks like I'm going to start water dropping my C358-180-RFs and see if it changes the way they shoot.

Ian

[Haywire Haywood]

Well... the results of my shooting are somewhat disappointing. The best group was with the mixed boolits with 5gr of difference in weight, altho I did pull one rather badly in one of the the "exact weight" groups. The trigger is pretty bad on my rifle, need to get that looked at. ES in velocity was 19 and 27 for the mixed groups and 26 and 48 for the exact weight groups. Those are bad any way you look at it. I'd have to say that this exercise was inconclusive. Was pretty random across the board and I think has more to do with the load, the rifle and the operator than bullet weight variations.

Ian

[felix]

Ian, make sure your gun system is worthy of your boolit selection techniques! Lever guns with open sights shooting offhand should be shooting targets like charging cans from 80-120 yards out. If you are getting around 50 percent hits, you are doing well. A hit would be considered anything that makes the can move enough to be enjoyed. Keep in mind that a center hit is about worthless, so aim a mite low to generate excitement. Select only boolits with square bases, and reject the rest. Don't waste time with the scales for this type of fun. ... felix

[waksupi]

Ian, if you want to be really entertained, shoot some factory loads, and check thier ES. Betcha they are further apart than yours are.

[Haywire Haywood]

Ian, make sure your gun system is worthy of your boolit selection techniques!... felix

Point taken.. It's an NEF Handi-Rifle, originally 357 Mag, reamed to Rem. Max. topped with a Burris 2-7x32 EER set up in a scout scope config. My goal is a consistant 2moa load.

Ian

[David R]

To make the can jump the best, hit just where the can meets the ground. This will give the most satisfaction and makes the poeple watching have some fun too. I tend to yell Eeee Hhaaa when the can really flies.

[Dye]

Haywire
This the test of ww& ww+1% tin.
Clip on ww,air cooled 10.7 Bhn
Clip on ww plus 1% tin 13.2 Bhn
Clip on ww heat treated 22.5 Bhn
Clip on ww plus 1% tin 22.5 Bhn
Clip on ww annealed 10.7 Bhn
Clip on + 1% tin annealed 13.2 Bhn
These bullets was cast 82 ambient temp.-650 degrees alloy temp- 325 -350 cavity temperature. Heat treating was 450 for 1 hour.
Hope this helps on throughly confusing you,Welcome to the wonderful world of casting

Be carefull Dye

[David R]

I get 12 BHN and 16BHN

David

I even bought a magnafying glass so I could read the calipers better.

[Dye]

I get 12 BHN and 16BHN

David

I even bought a magnafying glass so I could read the calipers better.
David R
If you are talking about the the air cooled ww & ww+ 1% tin.You are ok. What Hardness Tester?

[Haywire Haywood]

I get 12 BHN and 16BHN

Thanks David. That's a lot higher than I thought it would be and higher than what Dye had. I wish I had water dropped one and sent that with. At least I know that the annealing works.. but maybe not enough if BPers are looking for a BHN of 9ish. I'm thinking I'll go search out some roofing lead and do a 1-1 with WW for the 45-90.

Thanks to everyone for the input,
Ian

[Haywire Haywood]

If you are talking about the the air cooled ww & ww+ 1% tin.You are ok. What Hardness Tester?

That was Straight WW, one air cooled and one annealed at 400 for one hour.

Ian

[David R]

I bought one from buckshot. My numbers may be a little high, but I have no proof. I calabrated it with a pure labe grade sample that came with the tester. I also checked the spring pressure in a drill press on a bathroom scale. Its right on.

I believe it.

I too get in the high teens and low twentys for water dropped WW + some tin.

Aparently your anealing is working. ACWW usually come out in the 11 to 13 range for me. You know what they say, YOUR milage may vary.

David

[drinks]

I have the Cabine Tree tester, uses a dial gage for readings, is very repeatable.
I am getting BHN11-12 with muffins 1 week old, BHN12 with acwws and BHN 22-24 with waterdropped wws with 1% Tin and a tablespoon of chilled shot per 8lbs.
Have never tried annealing bullets as I am usually shooting between 1600 and 2600fps.

[35remington]

Since this is turning into a pretty good accounting of what is possible, I'll throw in too.

I find my ACWW plus a small amount of tin to go around 12 BHN after several weeks of aging.

Oven tempered WW's typically go 27 BHN, and by pushing it to the very limit of my own technique I can get 33 BHN. This is right on the ragged edge of starting to form melted spots on the bullet and is probably unnecessary for most uses.

[Haywire Haywood]

wws with 1% Tin and a tablespoon of chilled shot per 8lbs.

Have any idea what you get with that mixture air cooled?

Ian

[Haywire Haywood]

I thought I'd give an update to this. I got an O-Ring large enough to stretch over the butt of the handles and stiff enough to hold them decently tight. I used that to try to make the tension on the handles consistent. I made the pour, sat the block on the side of the pot and opened my hand so that only the o-ring held the blocks together. Out of 62 boolits, I had 4 culls due to rounded bases and the ES of all of them including the culls was 1.3gr, 1.2gr excluding the culls. This is an LBT 2 cavity 359-180-RF. I'm one happy camper. I just have to attach the o-ring to one of the handles and glue a flap of leather around it to make a tab for pulling it on and off the other handle. That was a lot cheaper than the locking mold holder from Cabine Tree.

Ian