Issues with gas checks dislodging due to seating depth

[mkj4him]

I was told not to use cast bullets with gas checks when using a suppressor. But then again, I've heard of folks doing just that with no problems.

I'm using a 458 Socom with 10.5" barrel and suppressor. With big, heavy 405 and 500 grain gas checked bullets, the seating depth necessary to allow magazine fit puts the gas checks below the bottom of the case neck, down into the main powder chamber, where the gas check is unsupported. Are there any big concerns seating a bullet deep enough the gas check falls below the bottom of the case neck, so as to cause the gas check to become dislodged upon firing? Has anyone used gas checked bullets through suppressors successfully? Were the gas checks still seated in the neck or below?

[runfiverun]

mmmm.
hornady gas checks crimp into the shank.
'falling off' won't happen.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

This was discussed a while back. If you are making your own gas checks, I suppose it is a possibility. But with the right caliber of modern commercial gas-check, sized onto a bullet designed for it, that won't happen. If you just guess at a brand of gas-check to use on a mould you have, it is worth checking whether it gets securely fixed, but that is about it.

[mkj4him]

My first consideration is to purchase various style and weight cast lead gas checked bullets to try and determine which one I like best. Then I would get a similar bullet mould. I currently mould various calibers but don't have 458(459) yet. I also don't have any equipment to install the gas checks. Suggestions? I do use Lee sizer dies, and have heard they will work to install gas checks, but am wondering if that would be the best option considering my situation and concern about the gas checks coming off during firing, especially through a suppressor.

So would I be correct in assuming that commercially available cast bullets with gas checks should be considered safe (gas checks will be secure and not come off)? I'm looking hard at some Beartooth Bullets 525 grain Pile Drivers. They get very good reviews both subsonic and supersonic. Other suggestions are welcome.

[blackthorn]

IF the gas check is seated loosely, there may be some danger of it falling off the end of the bullet during handling if it is seated below the neck. I seriously doubt that if it stays attached until the round is fired that it would come off at that point. Once the powder ignites the bullet is in motion and almost instantly into the case neck and how would it then fall off? Once into the barrel, the only way it could stop is if it plugged the bore, in which case you would have a big problem. Common sense dictates that if there is enough force to get the (heavy) bullet out of the barrel, there has to be more than enough pressure to clear the check as well. That said, if the check is rattling around inside the case at the moment of firing, there could be a problem. In my opinion, this is unlikely if the check is firmly seated to start with.

[dragon813gt]

I routinely seat gas checks below the neck for 300 Savage. It's almost impossible to do otherwise. I haven't had one come off and I make my own. But I also use the proper material thickness to insure they crimp on.

I still wouldn't put them through a suppressor unless it's one I made w/ freeze plugs and can repair myself. Things do happen and a loose check will damage the can. It's not worth the risk to me. Now if suppressors are removed from the NFA and prices comes down to where they should be I would not hesitate to shoot them.

[Geezer in NH]

Don't need any gas checks for suppressor use. Sub sonic don't need them. When you want faster and get the sonic crack why bother with a can IMHO I own 4 of them myself.

Baffle strikes can be expensive.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

I don't want a suppressor, but there can be quite a lot of point to one with a supersonic bullet. The sonic crack is roughly proportional to the size of the bullet, and it is less likely to scare an animal too quickly for a second shot, or let it locate the source. It is also lowered in pitch by the Doppler effect as it comes back to the shooter, and is a lot less likely to cause hearing loss.

[mkj4him]

I appreciate all the comments. I understand that subsonic is slow enough that leading shouldn't be an issue, so no gas checks needed. But, as mentioned above, using a can with supersonic still has it's advantages, especially when shooting for fun around my neighborhood. It doesn't draw as much attention as without the can.

So lets say I purchase Hornady gas checks. And say I have a mould that includes a gas check base. What is the best method to apply said gas check? Do I need a special piece of equipment, or will a Lee sizing die do the job? I want to make sure it is done right, for the above mentioned reasons.

[Shiloh]

You're not getting them crmped. I have found distorted boolits in the range berm with the gascheck still on.

SHiloh

[quilbilly]

Over the last couple years I have picked up a few thousand old gas checks of various sizes very, very cheap at gun shows. The old Lyman checks (some even were rounded brass, not copper) fall off easily even after being sized and seated. Despite the early frustration and extra work, they were so cheap I got into the habit of super-glueing them on before sizing. This is not required of Hornady checks which crimp on, of course. Once the old checks have been glued on then sized, they shoot fine.

[mkj4him]

OK. I think I get the picture that I should just use plain base bullets with the suppressor. Gas checks can be for the higher velocity bullets. Now, any reason I can't just use one mould that uses a gas check, and shoot the bullet subsonic through the suppressor without a gas check in place? Then install the gas check when shooting supersonic without the suppressor? What would the affect be shooting a gas checked bullet without the gas check?

[GWM]

There are no effects that I know of. Works fine.

[sharps4590]

Yes you can shoot bullets with the gas check shank with no ill effects and good results. I have for years. For speedier loads I add the gas check, just as you surmised.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

I appreciate all the comments. I understand that subsonic is slow enough that leading shouldn't be an issue, so no gas checks needed. But, as mentioned above, using a can with supersonic still has it's advantages, especially when shooting for fun around my neighborhood. It doesn't draw as much attention as without the can.

So lets say I purchase Hornady gas checks. And say I have a mould that includes a gas check base. What is the best method to apply said gas check? Do I need a special piece of equipment, or will a Lee sizing die do the job? I want to make sure it is done right, for the above mentioned reasons.

The mould should be one the makers say is suitable for Hornady gas checks. If made for others, it might be different.

If you want to use G H and I dies, you need the lubricating and sizing machine several manufacturers make for them. This is quite expensive, but it does have the advantage of injecting lube neatly into the grooves of the bullet. There are electrical heating pads to warm the device and thus the lube. With hard lubes you may need them, but with the soft lubes commonly used with pistol bullets or black powder, probably not.

The Lee push-through dies, permitting the use of your reloading press, are fine if the diameter is right. When I did this, I had a nose punch for the G H and I dies which I grafted into the top of the punch, to push the bullets through base first. But I don't believe the gas-check would take any harm from being pushed through last, with a flat punch.

[Tatume]

But I don't believe the gas-check would take any harm from being pushed through last, with a flat punch.

The Magma Star sizer pushes bullets through nose first with a flat punch. In the short time I've owned one I've sized and applied gas checks to several thousand bullets and the gas checks are seated and crimped perfectly. The same should be true of the Lee sizers.

[Forrest r]

I'd be taking a hard look @ coated (pc'd) bullets to use with your suppressor. They are a heck of allot cleaner to use/shoot, no gc needed. Traditional bullet lubes leave a lot of fouling in the suppressors and muzzle breaks. Not a suppressed bbl but this is what a 9mm bbl looked like after 700-rounds of 30,000+ psi (5.5gr longshot/125gr coated bullet) coated bullets went down the tube.

http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t242/forrestr-photo/crown_zpsbapei3xm.jpg (http://s162.photobucket.com/user/forrestr-photo/media/crown_zpsbapei3xm.jpg.html)

What the bore looked like

http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t242/forrestr-photo/bblpowderfouling_zpsaistqpxi.jpg (http://s162.photobucket.com/user/forrestr-photo/media/bblpowderfouling_zpsaistqpxi.jpg.html)

1 wet patch (hoppe's #9) and 1 dry patch later

http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t242/forrestr-photo/clean9mmbbl_zpsr0hl0elp.jpg (http://s162.photobucket.com/user/forrestr-photo/media/clean9mmbbl_zpsr0hl0elp.jpg.html)

Shoot 700 rounds of traditional lubed bullets in a firearm and see if it cleans up with 1 patch.

Your concerns are well founded, gc's do come off. Typically with heavier/higher pressured loads, but it only takes 1 to come off for things to go south real quick. Myself, I believe in the never say never thing and saying gc's never come off is hard to do. A bad gc, bad bullet shank, not installed correctly these things do happen.

Why put yourself in that situation to begin with when there's better/easier/cheaper solutions???

[birdadly]

I've only started loading rifle rounds but my first 120 rounds I had to pull the bullets from 30 of them, and I think it was, 5 of them the gas check came off and stayed in the brass! (figure I'm not getting those out?)

These were 22-250, cast bullet with the check put on by hand and then ran thru a 225 Lee sizer. Gator checks, or whatever they're called by the main guy that sells them here. Pulled with a collet puller.

So yeah, I worry about this too! I figure I did it correct, and maybe the Lee sizer didn't crimp them on good enough? They are PC'D so maybe that makes them slippery?

...I know this post didn't answer your questions, but thought I'd express my experience to help. -Brad

[blackthorn]

----"I've only started loading rifle rounds but my first 120 rounds I had to pull the bullets from 30 of them, and I think it was, 5 of them the gas check came off and stayed in the brass! (figure I'm not getting those out?)"

birdadly---there have been several discussions over time on this board on how to remove checks that were left behind as you describe. If you run a search you may find the answer to your problem.

[dragon813gt]

And checks coming off while pulling bullets is fairly common. When there is thousand of pounds of pressure pushing the check into the base upon firing they won't be coming off.

[Screwbolts]

In your socom, use a bulky powder that when boolit is seated it is compressing the powder, then you hypothetical problem is also fixed.

Ken

[Ballistics in Scotland]

And checks coming off while pulling bullets is fairly common. When there is thousand of pounds of pressure pushing the check into the base upon firing they won't be coming off.


Yes exactly. Unless it is an extremely odd gas-check, there is no way pressure can force the bullet away from it, only force them together. It is detachment of the check outside the muzzle that might give some cause for worry, but I think only if bullet and gas-check are badly matched.

I don't think there is a problem which compression against the powder charge will solve, and I don't like the idea of compressing any kind of smokeless rifle or pistol powder.