Elk Hunting 45-60

[.455 Webley]

This fall i have the opportunity to hunt Elk in Colorado. From a previous trip i know that the shots will not be long ones, 150 yards at the very most. I have been thinking about rifles i would like to take an Elk with and i keep coming back to my 1876 reproduction. Has anyone here used a .45-60 on Elk before with good results? Would i want to keep my alloy on the hard side to help with penetration? How fast do you think i would have to push a 300 or 340 grain slug? Who makes a good tang sight for the modern 76's?

Thanks for any advice you may have.
.455

[mart]

Marbles makes one for the original 1876 but I don't know if it would fit the new ones. The part number is 009801. It might merit an email to them.

[runfiverun]

the 45-60 should easily hit low pressure 45-70 velocity's.
350+gr flat nosed boolits from 30-1 to ww alloy should do just fine.
stopping one going 1300 + fps is the hard part.
your equaling the 454 casull with a 300 or so at that velocity, adding more flattens the trajectory.
adding more weight adds more penetration at lower velocity's [longer distances]

[quilbilly]

Having hunted elk many years with a muzzleloader, a 300 gr boolit going 1100 fps when it strikes the target will do quite nicely. I wouldn't necessarily keep the alloy on the hard side since I have seen what pure "blue-lead" does to one of those four hoofed locusts. IMHO the softer alloys transfer more energy to the target which can be important in a heavily hunted area where you want them knocked down with the first shot then finished, if necessary, with the second.

[.455 Webley]

Thanks mart, I sent them a message and they are working on an answer for me. They seem like nice folks.

Run5Run thanks for the encouragement. Having never shot an elk before i think i am a little bit paranoid that nothing less than a .50 browning will stop one reliably.

[C. Latch]

Thanks mart, I sent them a message and they are working on an answer for me. They seem like nice folks.

Run5Run thanks for the encouragement. Having never shot an elk before i think i am a little bit paranoid that nothing less than a .50 browning will stop one reliably.


I've killed one elk in my life, so this isn't exactly coming from a seasoned veteran elk hunter, but FWIW:

Elk hunts are expensive. Take something that'll reach across a canyon, without a lot of math before the shot, in case that's the only shot you get.

I'd love to kill another elk, or twelve, one day, but the next time I go hunting for them, I'll carry the fastest and flattest shooting rifle I own. That goes doubly for public-land hunts.

[BrentD]

I would opt for either this version of the Marbles because it is better made than new-made Marbles.
http://montanavintagearms.com/product/sights/mva/mva-combination-rear-sights/

Or this, which has windage
http://montanavintagearms.com/product/sights/131-vernier-tang-sight/

FWIW, I shot an Alaskan moose this past year with a blackpowder cartridge rifle that was shooting a bit slower than your 1300 fps estimate, but a lot heavier bullet (480). I prefer bullets over 400 grs, but that's just a personal bias.

[.455 Webley]

C. Latch I hear you on all points but this is going to be hunting a group of heavily wooded ridges. Talking with the rest of the group who have hunted here for years 100 yard shots are rare. Not having seen the territory before on my previous trip i took my fastest and flattest with the best-est scope i had.

[45stomp]

Never killed an elk, but several moose and many other critters.
1300 FPS and a softer alloy will get it done. Worked on lots of buffalo. 20 to 1 or 50-50 WW-pure lead, air cooled, would be my choice. Put it in the right spot, top of the heart, broadside, and get your knife out.

Good hunting:drinks:

Darcy

[RPRNY]

I suggest nothing harder than 10:1 alloy. It will absolutely penetrate and expand. Boiler room shot will be a througher. Shoulder shot may not exit the other side but will break the shoulder and not do much meat damage.

150 yards is a perfectly reasonable expectation for an elk shot in CO. If you spend the time practicing to make sure you can hit at that range and under, what a great rifle to hunt with.

[C. Latch]

C. Latch I hear you on all points but this is going to be hunting a group of heavily wooded ridges. Talking with the rest of the group who have hunted here for years 100 yard shots are rare. Not having seen the territory before on my previous trip i took my fastest and flattest with the best-est scope i had.


That makes sense.

I wish you well. Elk is tasty. :)

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

455 Webley,

Looking in my Lyman cast bullet book, I find no info for the 45/60.

So, for that reason I'll go with what I know, a 45/70.

If you will search on this forum, and on others like the Marlin Owners Forum and at sources like the Beartooth Bullet web site or the Beartooth Bullets Forum, you will soon be acquainted with the great effectiveness of the cast bullet with a large meplat often referred to as bullets with a Wide Flat Nose.

Speaking from personal experience that bullet profile is awesome on critters. I have taken a growing pile of deer and two elk at this point every deer being a bang/flop except for one I hit just a touch far back that went a short distance. Both elk were down in less time then it takes to tell about it.

The only negative experience I have had with the cast WFN was on my first deer taken with a 355gr WFN from a Lead Bullet Technology (LBT) mold, cast from wheel weight alloy with a very slight addition of tin (wasted) and water quenched.

Dealing with much loading experience, I found that I needed to relearn a lot with the 45/70.

I put that 355gr bullet out the barrel as 2300fps, the deer was at about 100yds and I NEVER want to again see that size of a wound channel.

FORGET warp velocity with the cast WFN, it is simply NOT needed.

Every critter since that first one has been taken with a 465gr WFN cast of 50/50 - wheel weights/lead alloy, water quenched and out the barrel at 1650fps.

With your 45/60, if you can get a 400 or heavier grain WFN bullet and put it out the barrel at 1400fps +/-, you will be good to go.

I could safely go to much higher velocity with my rifle ( have tested loads in excess of 1900fps), but 1650fps has been the sweet spot for groups and consistency and no one can question it's effectiveness.

YOU DO NOT NEED HARD CAST! And in fact, unless the manufacture/caster supplies tested BNH figures with their hard cast claim, the claim is meaningless.

Just make sure you have good/proper bullet to bore fit and a WFN.

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot

[hc18flyer]

Man I wish I was going to CO to hunt elk again! Have gone twice now send need another 'fix' again, maybe in 2017? Good luck with the 45/60! Flyer

[JimP.]

i also have a Win 1876 Centenial rifle in 45-75. i shoot a oregon trails 350 gr cast bullet at 1300 fps. i looked on loaddata for you and it listed three combinations which give approx 1300 fps in the 45-60. all three loads use a 300 gr bullet, first one is a cast 300 gr bullet with 26.0 grs of IMR 4198. Second load is a 300 gr JHP with 21.0 grs 2400 and lastly a Hornady 300 gr JHP with 28.0 grs of IMR 4198. all three loads were max loads and used a 2 inch square of toilet paper over the powder. i would rather use a pinch of dacron fiber but i showed the loads as printed in loaddata. i would kill an elk or deer with my rifle, dont see why you cant with yours, Enjoy... please remember these are max loads and work them up in your rifle.

[Bigslug]

Order of preference: accuracy, then bullet cohesion/penetration, then reliable function (feed & extract), then maybe, possibly, I might get interested in expansion. . .or not.

NOE makes this little 350 grain lovely that has all the bloodletting meplat you should need: http://noebulletmolds.com/NV/index.php?cPath=42_138&osCsid=fm60f65rm34ms1k1av1nmp5rl3 I know from experience that the slightly wider-nosed 405 grain version feeds like greased eel boogers in Marlins - the inline "torpedo" feed of your '76 will care even less.

I'd be inclined to play with wheelweight + 2% tin and see if air cooled or water-quenched groups better. Either should hold together fine, not deform much if at all, create good internal leakage (with those NOE designs or something like them), and give you an exit hole pretty much in line with the entry and where you're standing when you pull the trigger.

Best not to overthink it; we don't have to shoo BISON out of our petunias because they were all killed by rounds about like this.

[Bob Busetti]

Put Lyman tang sight on my 50/95 & target front sight on my Express rifle. I needed longer stem for my tang sight. Buffalo Arms helped me out with the tang sight problem. I have been using 38.0 grs of 5744 with the Lyman 350 gr boolit. Shoots fine.

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

50/50 Wheel weights/Lead water quenched works fine.

The attached is a before and after of my 465gr Wide Flat Nose, which is very likely the only one I'll ever retrieve from a critter, was found in a big cow elk after a long hard trip on a quartering shot.

Little need for expansion with a WFN and overly hard could lead to bullet failure if the bullet fragmented.

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot

167743

[.455 Webley]

I was out of town over the weekend getting the cabin that i deer hunt out of painted and cleaned up for the summer. To come home and find all this advice and support waiting for me is amazing. I would like to offer a hearty thank you to everyone who posted here. Hopefully i will be able to give you a good elk story come fall, one that ends with me asking about the best way to cook one of those critters.

.455

[missionary5155]

Good morning
Been shooting the 45-60 for some years. Do a little research what really went on 135 years ago. What were the bullet weights used. The 45-60 was a well proven elk and big bear cartridge. For the 100 yard shots and less you are anticipating you will be well served.
3F in our modern cut down 45-70 cases will get your 350 grainer to original velocity. If you decide to go smokeless give Accurate Powder a call. They will do their computer work and give you all the data you need to stay within the parameters of your rifle.
The old cartridges were loaded with pure lead up to 20-1 as a "hardened bullet". You do not need harder than that nor want it. You are dealing with different parameters with the slower velocity. These mixes will give expansion on rib/chest shots and leave a descent exit hole. On shoulders they will stay together and penetrate deeply smashing bone. I would not hesitate to "thwap" an elk with a 30-1 or 40-1 400 grainer with a BP 3F load under 100 yards on the shoulder. Launch that first one cycle the action and be ready to apply a follow up. As soon as you see the elk again up or down smack it with that second round. From what I have read that was the practiced method for shooting large body beasties with the 45-60 in a 1876 Winchester. Whether a 350 or 400 grainer.. two shots.
Powder capacity of the 45-60 case and the rifle toggle link action prohibits the use of heavier bullets. I have an original and repro 1876 rifles. The parts are the same design. The steel toggles today may be better but it is still a 140 year old design. Do not think you will be able to push velocities. A 450 grain bullet takes up far to much case space. You cannot pass the OAL of the system. If you must have more power that is why the single shots were still very popular. A flat nose design bullet is good. But when using 30-1 or 40-1 mix you do not need it. But do some experiments on your own. The cost of shooting a bunch will never approach the cost of the hunt. Practice until that rifle becomes second nature.
Mike in Peru

[45stomp]

Best not to overthink it; we don't have to shoo BISON out of our petunias because they were all killed by rounds about like this.

This made me laugh:D
True words, keep it simple.

step 1- put lead alloy boolit thru center of chest.
step 2- remove sharp knife from sheath and commence processing dead elk.:drinks:

Darcy

[.455 Webley]

I am sorry to report that no bulls were spotted on this trip. However I did get to see more than a dozen cows during my week hunting. All of them would have been well with range of the 45-60. In two years when i go back with a cow tag i will find nothing but bulls. I would like to once again thank everyone who helped me work up a load for this trip. Just curious are any members here from the Craig Colorado area?