ADVICE PLEASE on Forming 11.7x56R from an Easier to Find Case??

[texasnative46]

Friends,

I've bought a Danish Rolling Block that was re-bored from 11.7x41R (RIMFIRE) to 11.7x56R Center-fire this week & have never reformed cases to fit a BP cartridge rifle before.

I'm planning to use the 3-band military musket to hunt wild boar, wolves & Red deer in Eastern Europe this Fall/Winter.
(NON-citizens cannot lawfully use modern firearms for hunting there. - Pre-1890 rifles/smoothbores of 10mm bore or greater & loaded with BP only. = I'm told that the estate that I've been invited to hunt is thick with Russian boar/Red Deer & has numerous wolves that I'm free to collect as "vermin".)

So, IF you form cases for that caliber rifle & load BP hunting ammo, I'd like to "pick your brains".

I wonder if .303 British or 8mm Lebel would be suitable to reform??

THANKS in advance, tn46

[chevyiron420]

I'll tell what I do with my rifle. First, you realy need to cast the chamber. It is my understanding that several different smiths converted those rifles in country with out gov. standards, so they did it the way they wanted to. Mine has just a long tapered chamber with no step corresponding to the case mouth. My barrel slugs .463. I use a 405 grain boolit from a lee mould I lapped out. I may hear static about it, but I use 45-70 cases. They are a little undersized but as long as I use Remington cases I have no problem. The bigger the boolit you use, the shorter the case has to be to not bind in the chamber. Right now my mould is dropping at .462, and I can just use standard length cases. If it was any bigger, I dont know if the round would fit, maybe. I use my Lee 45-70 dies and hold a 5/8 spacer on top of the shell holder when sizing, so when it contacts the base of the die it stops the press. That way the case can stay mostly fire formed to the chamber. I dont really need a expander doing it like that, just a little flare. Then I roll crimp. I dont load with black, so I cant help there.

[Piedmont]

I do a lot of what Chevyiron does. Mine has a .466 groove diameter. I bought an oversize LBT mold and a custom .467" bullet sizer die. I use .45-70 cases with the case sizer die backed out to neck size. I recommend you wrap the base of the case with some cellophane tape to keep the base centered for the first firing to sort of fire form it unlopsided.

It is an odd chamber without that step at the end of the brass. You will probably want to seat your bullet out far enough to touch the throat and center that part of the loaded round. But of course you want the action to close fully, so it is a balancing act.

I don't crimp. I've loaded black powder in mine but very little. That rifle has a lonnnnggg barrel so if you get a custom mould, get one with lots of lube capacity, especially for black powder.

[Ed in North Texas]

There is a Cast Boolits thread on the Danish RB from 2008, Curator has info on the longer case version (he called it the 11.7x58R, and I've seen that designation elsewhere). He loads 65 grains of FFg under the Lee .459-405HB. Another site had a poster loading the Lee boolit over 60 grains of FFg. Both used .45-70 brass to form the cases. http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?34347-11-7-Danish

And Curator on another site with a little more info: http://surplusrifleforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=454610

Buffalo Arms claims to have an ample supply of 11.7x56R cases (formed from .348 Win I think) @ $2.06 each if you get in a bind for brass in a hurry.

Hope that helps. Good luck on the hunt.

[texasnative46]

chevyiron420,

1st, THANKS for the advice. I've ordered Cerrosafe to cast the chamber but it has not yet arrived.

Inspection of the bore with a strong light indicates that I have the same sort of chamber in my musket as yours is.

yours, tn46

[texasnative46]

Piedmont,

My "new to me" musket's barrel is about 35.25" long, so I suspect that you're correct about lots of lube-grooves & since there seems to be NO step at the end of the chamber, "centering" the bullet touching the throat sounds like good advice.

THANKS, tn46

[Mk42gunner]

I think the chamber cast is a wise idea, especially for a Rolling Block in one of the 11.7x?? Danish rounds. Donnelly's book shows several different lengths and diameters, consequently several different parent cases. IF it is in fact the x56 version, supposedly a .43 Spanish is the best case to use.

If you can order them from Buffalo Arms, even at two bucks a case, that may be the best way to go. I do not like the idea of using .45-70 brass and getting the pregnant guppy look after firing.

Robert

[texasnative46]

Mk42gunner,

Presuming that nobody has "messed about with" the chambering since the Danish National Armory re-chambered the musket to 11.7x56R (NOT a good bet after 130+ years!!!) it is the 56mm chamber.
(Proper Danish arsenal markings, etc.)

Once the Cerrosafe ingot arrives in the mail, the chamber cast is Priority ONE.

THANKS for your advice.

yours, tn46

[Artful]

Tagged for updates on your neat RB and hunt.

[texasnative46]

Artful,

WILCO.

yours, tn46

[EDG]

Get the head end of the chamber checked for diameter. If it is close to .513 as it says in Cartridges of the World then you might turn the belts off of H&H size belted magnum brass and add some sort of rim.

Otherwise .43 Mauser, .43 Spanish and 44-77 brass might be made to work. Some of the Jamison brass is in stock at Grafs and other places now.


Friends,

I've bought a Danish Rolling Block that was re-bored from 11.7x41R (RIMFIRE) to 11.7x56R Center-fire this week & have never reformed cases to fit a BP cartridge rifle before.

I'm planning to use the 3-band military musket to hunt wild boar, wolves & Red deer in Eastern Europe this Fall/Winter.
(NON-citizens cannot lawfully use modern firearms for hunting there. - Pre-1890 rifles/smoothbores of 10mm bore or greater & loaded with BP only. = I'm told that the estate that I've been invited to hunt is thick with Russian boar/Red Deer & has numerous wolves that I'm free to collect as "vermin".)

So, IF you form cases for that caliber rifle & load BP hunting ammo, I'd like to "pick your brains".

I wonder if .303 British or 8mm Lebel would be suitable to reform??

THANKS in advance, satx

[texasnative46]

To ALL,

I just got off the phone with my brother of the heart & Ed said that my idea of using .303 British to make 11.7 cases will NOT work. - The .303 will fireform out to 10MM & no more.
(PHOOEY, said I.)

IF a person had a need for a 10x50mm wildcat that would work fine & it likely would be as good of a KILLER on heavy game at close range as the .40 cal. 2 1/4" Sharps.

yours, tn46

[Howie405]

I have used .43 Spanish and .348 Win. In my Danes the .43 Spanish needs to have the rim thinned and .348 Win. needs the base in front of the rim turned to a smaller diameter. A lot of work but still better than using under size 45-70 brass.If you do not need a lot of brass the preformed Buffalo Arms or Jamison brass would be a good choice.

[texasnative46]

Howie405,

THANKS.= The .43 Spanish sounds somewhat less difficult than lathe-turning the base on the .348 WCF.

Update, 05MAY16: The Cerrosafe arrived today, so I can now do the chamber cast. = WOO HOO!!!

yours, tn46

[texasnative46]

To ALL,

I'd like to buy 2-5 of the French Boxer-primed 8mm Lebel cases (if anyone has any fired cases), to see IF suitable cases can be formed from that .68USD case.
(Midway USA has sacks of 100 pieces for 68.ooUSD.)

I think it POSSIBLE that Lebel cases can be reformed easier than .45-70 Government brass. - I may well be 100% wrong, though.

yours, tn46

[texasnative46]

To All,

THANKS for your kind advice & help.

Yesterday PM, I was given a box of .45 Basic cases to "try" in my rifle. - The giver said that IF they worked, that he had a LOT more new cases (300-+) that he bought for a Sharps .45-80 rifle that he once owned.

It turns out that the 2.5 inch Sharps cases are a GOOD FIT for MY rifle (the chambers/bores of Danish RB rifles vary considerably.), with a simple trimming to 2.2 inches & nothing more than that.

Given that the "trapdoor safe" BP loads that I plan to use for hunting in Eastern Europe are really low pressure, I believe that my "case availability problem" is SOLVED for a long time.

yours, satx

[EDG]

If your chamber is really .513 to .515 at the head end it is still too big for the .45 basic brass. You don't want just a good fit. You want a nearly perfect fit.
The case is a gasket that keep gas out of your face. Don't mess around with a less than excellent case in a RRB because your face is lined up right behind the breech of that rifle.


To All,

THANKS for your kind advice & help.

Yesterday PM, I was given a box of .45 Basic cases to "try" in my rifle. - The giver said that IF they worked, that he had a LOT more new cases (300-+) that he bought for a Sharps .45-80 rifle that he once owned.

It turns out that the 2.5 inch Sharps cases are a GOOD FIT for MY rifle (the chambers/bores of Danish RB rifles vary considerably.), with a simple trimming to 2.2 inches & nothing more than that.

Given that the "trapdoor safe" BP loads that I plan to use for hunting in Eastern Europe are really low pressure, I believe that my "case availability problem" is SOLVED for a long time.

yours, satx

[texasnative46]

EDG,

THANK YOU.

yours, satx

[17nut]

Here is a resume i wrote some time ago to adress the confusion about chamber length:

Danish Rolling Blocks and chamber length confusion

The original Danish RB round was 11.4x41.5R rimfire. Load was 52grains in 1867 and changed to 60 grains of BP behind a 385 grains boolit.
Denmark ordered 20000 rifles from Remington to be delivered within 6 months. That backfired for Remington because Sheffield could not deliver enough barrels.
The Danes got to make their own RB’s without paying royalty as a result.
5 production lines was set up and each of them had a master gunsmith which was in charge of quality. Each smith had to manufacture his own set of Go-No Go gauges and have them certified by the factories master controller. This becomes important later!
All is well and from 1867 to 1878 @78500 RB’s are manufactured.
In 1884 the Danes start to develop a replacement for the RB and at the same time they start to ponder a way to modernise the RB’s. In 1896 they were officially converted to: Smokeless, centerfire and jacketed bullets.
And now comes problems in heaps falling on the arsenal, Because of the 5 different Go-No Go tools it is clear that bores range from 11.25mm~.443” to 11.75mm~.463”. You can’t design a standard round with jacketed that will work within those ranges with any kind of accuracy and without huge variations in pressure. So a LARGE long throat is devised to size the bullets for the smaller bores.
That is why some Danes will chamber a 45-90 without problems and why the 11.4x56R thought exists.

In the development of the final cartridge choices in smokeless was dismal and experiments led to the 56mm cartridge. But that meant grinding down the hammer for chamber access and that was dismissed along with slower reloading of the rifle. Only @200 rifles were ever converted and they can be easily identified by the ground down hammer.