The 626 Pigpocalypse

[RPRNY]

Not really much of an invention per se but it may be of some interest. I designed this "cartridge" specifically for a Handi Rifle Pardner Tracker II, 20 ga rifled slug barrel. While nominally a "poor man's dangerous game rifle", it being a single shot means that one would have to be very bold or very desperate to use it on seriously dangerous game. In fact, I intend to use it for walk-up hunting hogs in brush where shots are rarely out 50 yards and where rapid death and a good blood trail are aided by very large holes. Were I still hunting deer in New England, it might serve the same purpose.

The load is as follows:

- 20 ga 2.5" Magtech brass shell - uses large pistol primers

- 83 grs Black powder (15 grs 3 F as a primer, 68 grs 2F as main charge)

- Wad column: 18 ga over powder nitro card, 2x 0.5" 18 ga fiber wads, lube cookie, 17 ga overshot card

- .626" 370 gr pure lead round ball held in place with Scotch tape (glued in picture but I didn't like the idea of glue adhering to the ball.

The RB is only shallowly engraved by the rifling when slugged, but it must obturate sufficiently because accuracy is good. The first three shots sighting in the Simmons 1.5 - 5 shotgun scope were low and bracketing. The next five were all in the black on a 25 yard rapid fire pistol target. Shot at 50 yards offhand to simulate field use, I find accuracy good.

Having proved the concept, next step is to chronograph. I suspect it will be in the 1400 - 1450 fps range but could be lower. In any event, anything hit with a 62 cal ball at a reasonable speed is going to fall down quickly and bleed out. It's not very practical of course, more a novelty than anything else, but ideally suited to its intended use.

[Blackwater]

This is the "po' boy's Paradox gun." And they've done some awfully good things with those type loads, too. I believe they were most popular over in India? Somebody double check my memory on that, though. Who rifled your barrel for you, or how did you find one that's rifled? I'm betting it'll be a true apocalypse for any hawgs ya' run into!

[RPRNY]

H&R made two rifled slug guns (that I know of) - the Tracker II in a normal shotgun profile barrel (mine) and the Ultra Slug Hunter in a heavy barrel version. There may have been an earlier Tracker as well? Twist for the 20 ga is 1:28.

The paradox gun was more a rifled choke type thing, a double rifle originated by Holland & Holland in which only the last three inches of the barrel were rifled. It was indeed intended for use in India and Africa on dangerous game. A few other English rifle makers copied the idea. That idea was that one could shoot shot or these sort of conical skirted slugs for big game. I believe H&H will still make a paradox gun in 12ga on the Royal Sidelock Ejector platform, starting at a mere $27,000...

[victorfox]

Wow made me want a 20! The loads looks cool and shoots nice! What's more to be expected?

[richhodg66]

I have a little rifled H&R 20 gauge. Also have a Lyman .60 caliber RB mold, which I kinda hope casts oversize, haven't tried it yet.

How exactly do you scotch tape the ball to hold it, around the case mouth?

[RPRNY]

The .626" ball from Track of the Wolf has a flat spot from the sprue. It sits nicely on the overshot card and I just put a piece of Scotch tape over the top. It sounds, and looks ridiculous but the results are fine.

If your mold is dropping them undersized, .628 would be best in my barrel, you can try bumping them out. I use a piece of flat metal on one side of a vise and a soft wood block on the other. Close the vise on the ball with the flat on the metal side. The ball will compress the soft wood to get a nice indent, give it a couple of turns and see if you can bump it out to bore size without deforming the ball beyond recognition. ;-)167480

[taco650]

Cool idea! Time to try a 12 gauge!

[RPRNY]

12ga would be truly awesome and should Rhino (as opposed to RINO) season every by reestablished, that would be the ticket ;-)

[taco650]

What if you used all 2f powder and a large rifle primer? Guess you could use Trail Boss powder for a smokeless load if you wanted.

[montana_charlie]

Black powder ignites more easily than smokeless. I doubt that you need a 'priming' charge.
A very light taper crimp should eliminate the need for Scotch tape.

[taco650]

I imagine the recoil in your Trapper is noticeable.

[RPRNY]

Black powder ignites more easily than smokeless. I doubt that you need a 'priming' charge.
A very light taper crimp should eliminate the need for Scotch tape.

"Priming charge" is an inaccurate, if not perhaps entirely facetious, name. I use a 10 -15 gr 3F initial load in 1.5F BPC rifle cartridges because, in my experience, it brings down the extreme spread in velocity substantially, as much as 70% and seems, both through that fact and apparent residue, to produce more full combustion. Whether it does this with a load of 2F, or to an extent worthwhile, is a reasonable question.

CM - agree, a light taper crimp is to be desired. Any ideas on a tool? My Lee Loader doesn't crimp tight enough to hold the ball. I suppose a chamfered pipe of ideal diameter might do it but seems very hit or miss. Can't seem to find anything that will do it so any tips most welcome, thanks!

Recoil is remarkably light. Black Powder shove rather than smokeless bark and really not bad, standing, offhand. Not sure it would be much fun at a bench...

I'd be a little leery with Trail Boss. TB provides erratic pressures and velocities when compressed. Not necessarily dangerous apparently but inconsistent to say the least. In an SB1 Handi Rifle, I'd be willing to experiment with smokeless but would be looking at much slower burning powders than traditional 20ga loads, in part flatten/lengthen the pressure curve. I would start with 4198 and work up towards 4064 to see if slower was improving or offering diminishing returns. I think I'd use a large rifle primer too and maybe a few grains BP to help ensure full ignition.

[taco650]

At the risk of getting roasted... how do you think your creation compares to a factory 3" slug load?

[RPRNY]

I don't know. Haven't been able to chronograph it yet. Slightly over 3/4 oz weight. I'm guessing like 1200 Fps. At that speed, it's 1183 ft/lbs at the muzzle and a TKO rate of 40 vs "a standard 12 ga slug TKO of 53" according to an online TKO calculator I found.

I'll have to see what velocity is and report.

[Whiterabbit]

wow. You sir are three steps ahead of me and my identical project. I will leverage your learnings for my advantage!

:)

(thank you!)

I made a sizing die to hold a bullet in by case tension. But I haven't so much as fired one yet.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=148220&d=1441381823

(my initial tests were with 58 cal balls and bullets in cups, the results were less than desirable downrange...

[montana_charlie]

"Priming charge" is an inaccurate, if not perhaps entirely facetious, name.
I just keyed off of your - 83 grs Black powder (15 grs 3 F as a primer, 68 grs 2F as main charge)


CM - agree, a light taper crimp is to be desired. Any ideas on a tool? My Lee Loader doesn't crimp tight enough to hold the ball. I suppose a chamfered pipe of ideal diameter might do it but seems very hit or miss. Can't seem to find anything that will do it so any tips most welcome, thanks!
I had two ideas, neither of which looked useful after thinking them through for a few steps.
It seems like some kind of 'collet device' might be repurposed for light crimping (of the type done by the Lee Factory Crimp die).
I'll let it roll around in the back of my mind and see if anything 'grows'. If it does, I'll pass it on ...

[Whiterabbit]

See die above. You can get 1" thick-wall steel tube pretty cheap. Thread to 14 TPI after turning to something like .890 OD (something like that anyways), open up the more to .626, then cut a taper at the bottom. Those would be some really simple operations, and give you a taper crimp.

[RPRNY]

I just keyed off of your - 83 grs Black powder (15 grs 3 F as a primer, 68 grs 2F as main charge)


I had two ideas, neither of which looked useful after thinking them through for a few steps.
It seems like some kind of 'collet device' might be repurposed for light crimping (of the type done by the Lee Factory Crimp die).
I'll let it roll around in the back of my mind and see if anything 'grows'. If it does, I'll pass it on ...

MC - I understand. I meant that my use of the term "priming charge" was misleading and facetious. In 1.5 f cartridge charges, it seems to aid combustion and deliver slimmer velocity spreads. Whether this is true, or matters much, in this application, I can't say.

Whiterabbit- I may have gotten a few steps farther down the project pipeline, but I fear I do not have the skills to match your ability to make that most excellent taper crimp device! I recently read a four piece article in The Fouling Shot (CBA magazine) from 2006, in which someone was working on smokeless loads in plastic and paper hulls for the H&R 20 ga Ultra Slug Hunter, a heavier barrel than my Tracker II. He settled on a .635" ball. That is .010 over the groove depth in my Tracker II barrel but this has "ultragon" rifling by which I understand it to mean "really shallow", so slugging the barrel is important. Anyway, chap in the Fouling Shot pieces tried Lyman slugs, 58 cal RB, 58 cal conicals in sabots etc., in the end, he settled on the 635 RB as a 2 MOA round in his slugger.

[Whiterabbit]

you could make it with a 7/8-14 die, a .626" or close drill bit, and a dremel with flapper or drill if given enough time. Only tricky part would be getting the proper OD before running the part into the die.

Actually, I bet you could use an arbor press and skip the threading operation.

Use a 5/8" drill in a drill press at slowest speed on a hunk of steel, even a 1/4" sheet of steel a few inches square should do it. use a flapper to polish it and you should be just over .626. taper it somehow, like a tapered flapper in a dremel (made from a dowel and sandpaper , or any number of ways), and you have a crimper.

Just place it over the round in an arbor press and press lightly, that should neck the brass over the ball. Not pretty, but would work.

----------

you don't have a lee classic cast by chance, do you?

[RPRNY]

I have a Lee Classic Loader. But the thin wall brass hulls are too thin to taper crimp in it.

[BigEyeBob]

H&R made two rifled slug guns (that I know of) - the Tracker II in a normal shotgun profile barrel (mine) and the Ultra Slug Hunter in a heavy barrel version. There may have been an earlier Tracker as well? Twist for the 20 ga is 1:28.

The paradox gun was more a rifled choke type thing, a double rifle originated by Holland & Holland in which only the last three inches of the barrel were rifled. It was indeed intended for use in India and Africa on dangerous game. A few other English rifle makers copied the idea. That idea was that one could shoot shot or these sort of conical skirted slugs for big game. I believe H&H will still make a paradox gun in 12ga on the Royal Sidelock Ejector platform, starting at a mere $27,000...


Dont forget the Cape Gun it had a rifle barrel on one side and shotgun barrel on the other.
Saw one for sale here recently 577/450 on the left and 12 bore on the right , unfortunately I didn't have the financial resources to buy it.

[Whiterabbit]

I have a Lee Classic Loader. But the thin wall brass hulls are too thin to taper crimp in it.

you still talking about the magtech shells? they are pretty thick! Is your classic loader the same as the classic cast, with the thread adapter to 1.25" threads? or a different model

Sizing down those magtech shells was probably the "hardest" operation I've done on a reloading press short of sizing 45/70 bullets @ .460 down to .452, with gas check, in one shot.

[RPRNY]

Yes, the Magtech hulls. They are extremely thin when compared to paper or plastic which most loading tools are designed for.

The Lee Loader Classic is their old no press kit for hand loading. It has a sizing die but between the Magtech hulls being short at 2.5 " and thin vs plastic or paper, it won't crimp.

[Whiterabbit]

OK, I hear you there. I thought you meant thin as in deforms easy.

[montana_charlie]

Here is the basis for an idea to make a taper crimper.

Find a piece of 'tube' -- Outer diameter greater than your brass shell, inner diameter smaller than your brass shell.
It can be a piece of water pipe, a shaft collar, anything made of steel (or iron) that is about an inch long, with square-cut ends.

Taper the inside of one end.
Replacement handles (for rakes, hoes, pushbrooms, etc) often have a tapered end that is 'wedged' into the tool, then pinned.
Buy the handle, cut off the tapered end leaving enough length 'to work with', and store the stick for future projects.

Wrap emery cloth (wet/dry sandpaper) on the taper. Mount the stick, or the tube, in a vise and start to spin whichever one is in your hand, with some pressure applied.

Oil or water makes the paper stay free of buildup, and you get to use fresh grit as you move deeper into the 'tube'.

Some light preparation with a sharp half-round file can remove a good bit of metal from the inner corner to save time and paper.
If you are good with a file (and some people are) you can do the entire taper with that half-round, and just use the tapered wood and paper to do the final finishing.

When the tapered tube (now called a crimp die) is ready, glue it to, or press it into, a length of wood (or metal) that is rigid enough to apply pressure without bending. Place the die near one end, leaving room to attach a hinge to that same end.
The long end of this 'lever' will be the handle.

Hinge one end of the 'lever' to an upright surface that has an adjoining horizontal surface (like a wall and your bench).
The horizontal is far enough below the hinged end to allow a shell to stand on the horizontal surface while the 'die' is levered down onto the mouth.

The spacing between the hinge and the horizontal is critical to get a 'square crimp' when the die is levered downward onto the mouth of the shell.

I hope that my words paint a clear enough picture for you to 'see' this taper crimper, because I don't have any pictures to clarify the words.

[RPRNY]

Got it, I think. It certainly makes sense. Identifying the right diameter "pipe" will be the challenge.

Hope you saw my post above acknowledging that it was my use of the term "primer" that was facetious rather than your suggestion it was not necessary.

[montana_charlie]

Hope you saw my post above acknowledging that it was my use of the term "primer" that was facetious rather than your suggestion it was not necessary.
Yep, I saw it. No need to worry about it. I figured you were stepping back from using 'primer', but I had to make myself clear.

Hoping the idea has some use for you ... good luck.

[Whiterabbit]

rpr,

I was goofing around tonight in the shop. the lathe was already set to 14 tpi from a bullet feed die idea I was playing with last week. I tried this:

http://o.aolcdn.com/hss/storage/fss/6d47b3c9d545aff46de8398289054838

http://o.aolcdn.com/hss/storage/fss/7616a3f46346b99a418957a05c41885

made it from steel tube, 1" OD 5/8" ID. maybe stainless, maybe alloy, maybe carbon. I can't remember at this point. It's in the tumbler now, jangling around.

It's rough, and I have no desire to finish it, polish the ID, put proper chamfers on it, I don;t think I even faced the bottom 100% and definitely not the back. But the threads fit, and with some TLC, a die is a die.

Want it? I'm just gonna toss it in the project box and forget about it if you don't, but if you do, it doesn't have much value to me (other than the thread cutting practice, of which they look like ****, but do fit.....)

((I'm a 10-pm to midnight kids-are-in-bed machinist. Which is to say, not a machinist!))

[RPRNY]

You're a star! I'll take it. Will pm with address and your preference on shipping reimbursement.

[Whiterabbit]

BTW magnet doesn't stick, and cold blue beads up and rolls off. It's stainless.

Next time I am getting 7/8" pipe. half the time spent on that die was reducing the OD to the major thread diameter. The point was to practice thread cutting, not to practice wearing out my tools turning down OD's!

:)

(having a lathe and mill is so great)

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Have you recovered bullets from behind the target, or from game? It would be good to establish that they are staying engraved, and if not, a slightly larger ball would be advisable. That 25 yard accuracy is very usable, but a smoothbore with ball, or a rifled barrel failing to act rifled, can be much less than a quarter as accurate at a hundred. Rare as it may be in your style of pig shooting, that sort of shot is likely to be demanded occasionally.

I'd agree that a very light crimp is better than tape or glue. One so light as to have no effect on brass life should retail the ball perfectly,

[Whiterabbit]

it's a 50 yard group. The target is a B8, 25 yard rapid fire pistol target. X-ring is 1.775" across.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

it's a 50 yard group. The target is a B8, 25 yard rapid fire pistol target. X-ring is 1.775" across.

Sorry, I should have noticed that. But it is still the sort of offhand group that might have been obtainable if the rifling was failing, or failing with the occasional round, and eliminating any such problem would give you longer range it is well worthwhile to have.

[Whiterabbit]

Can't fault that idea.

[RPRNY]

I meant to get out yesterday to chronograph the load and give it a try at 100 yards but life got in the way. I have bumped out a couple of balls to @ .630 to see what, if any, effect that may have, so there will be some means of comparison.

Will advise once I get a chance.

[flint45]

looks like a great project.

[RPRNY]

Interesting.

Chrono'd at 1210 Fps, with a 12 Fps SD.

Tried it at 100 yards and was quite surprised. Worst group was 2 touching and the 3rd 3.5" low. Best group was 1.75" and the average was under 2.5"

168678

Would love to get 1300 Fps out of it but I think I'm looking at diminishing returns with more powder. Will take it up to @ 95 grs and see what's happening.

[Whiterabbit]

how much alternative charge data do you have? can you share? (charge, speed, and SD)

[RPRNY]

WR,

I have none. I'm making it up as I go along. The 1210 is with 83 grs of Old Eynsford (listed in original post). While the receiver is good to 65,000 psi, I have no idea what the barrel is proofed for. I'm fairly sure that it will take 4 drams but I'm not sure that I will get full combustion in a 24" barrel, so I'm going to see what, if any velocity increase I get at 95 grs.

Are you back yet? PM address and I'll send some wads and 62 cal ball.

Sent from my KFOT using Tapatalk

[Whiterabbit]

Nope! I come home Saturday. It's about dinner time now. :)

[richhodg66]

I apologize if asking a question you already addressed, but I must have missed it if you did. What, if anything, are you lubing these round balls with?

[RPRNY]

Not lubing round ball at all. There's a lube cookie over the fiber wads, under the over shot card. The fouling shot will go down the barrel "dry". After that, between the lube and black powder residue, there's plenty of lubricant in the barrel.

[richhodg66]

Interesting. I wonder if round balls would work in conventional plastic hulls like this (no crimp and glued or taped in like that)?

[RPRNY]

Interesting. I wonder if round balls would work in conventional plastic hulls like this (no crimp and glued or taped in like that)?

There is no reason that they should not, although you may have to skive and ream open a plastic hull which has much thicker walls than the Magtech brass. Were I going the plastic hull/smokeless route, I think I would buy 20 ga slugs with published data from Ballistics Products.

[Whiterabbit]

Interesting. I wonder if round balls would work in conventional plastic hulls like this (no crimp and glued or taped in like that)?

Yes and no. This is exactly what I did first before buying magtech shells. I took plastic hulls, std cups, and put in 58 call balls which fit snug. Accuracy no good, blown the bottoms out of the cups.

so I bought a lee 58 cal HB mold and turned a new FB pin. Much better, but it was minute of pig at 50 yards at best. Also very alloy sensitive. Any antimony in the alloy at all and the petals of the cup were sheared right off. I'm sure that was no good for the accuracy either.

fast forward and I have the megtech shells and a few full diameter slugs to try. But RB's are king, and if the formula already exists for minute of pig 100 yard accuracy, then the development is done, I just need to confirm, then buy my own mold and wads. perfect!

I hope I get that kind of performance from my gun

[Whiterabbit]

So, RPRNY was kind enough to give me a few RB's and wad components he is using. I "duplicated" the load using 85 gr 2F and no lube cookie (squirted some bore butter in there and smooshed the card on top. Go easy on me, I've never used lube cookies before)

Anyways, loaded up 7 or so and shot them all today, elbows on the table for a rest, just at 25 yards to see if there's any merit. Also shot two of my 45 cal lead free sabot slugs on the same target. Results as below:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=170903&d=1466799142

By george I think he is on to something here. I predict another buy of magtech shells in my future. Believe it or not, I feel like I pulled one of those rounds low, too. I bet they can shoot even better.

(for some reason it was a bunch of 'kids' today at the range, ~18 years old. I could ear their exclamations through my hearing protection at every shot. :) Apparently they don't expect to see a shower of sparks fly out of the barrel normally. :) :) )

[RPRNY]

Precision with lube cookies probably not necessary. These are 100-125 yard propositions. "Squirted some bore butter in there and smooshed the card on top" will probably be fine provided your "some" and your "smoosh" are consistent. ;-)


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[RPRNY]

Tested 95 grs OE FFg today at 100 yards. Accuracy was 2 - 2.5" but got it up to 1344 fps, albeit with fairly brutal recoil. That's 1483 ft/lbs and a Taylor KO of 44. My ballistic app doesn't allow for round ball but I'm betting it's close to 1000 at 100 yards.

I think this is going to be a great rifle for walking up hogs.

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[Whiterabbit]

you suck, RPRNY. You get me going on something really good, and ballistics products has been out of stock on 18 ga fiber wads since you started this thread.

I know. I have been checking every few days since then with a shopping cart ready to go.

[Texas by God]

I have long wanted that exact gun for that kind of fun. Rifled slug guns are rare around here. Best, Thomas.

[Whiterabbit]

buy one. Mine is the ultralite. People said it was "not accurate" compared to the USH heavy. For me, it is "accurate enough" with lead free slugs, which is why I bought it. And LIGHT for hunting.

And with RPRNY's 626 pigpocalypse, it is shockingly accurate (see pics. accurate!), and even shoots well with homemade BP. Which, now that ballistics products got in a shipment of wads, means I can shoot it for a long, long, long time for near free.

It's my favorite gun under $500. easy.

[jrod45ar]

+1 on a crimp instead of tape.

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[jrod45ar]

Oops! I jumped the gun and didn’t see rest of the thread when I posted. Apologies...

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[olafhardt]

I like this Idea, but I sorta cheated and bought a 500 S&W magnum Handi rifle some years ago. So far I have never polluted it with factory ammo. I had read of small game cartridges in single shots for walking around rifles. I thought that idea could be applied to larger game if one used a bigger bore. The handi with receiver and barrel designed to operate at 65k seemed like the perfect toy. It is. I hope you have as much fun with yours as I have had with mine.

[Whiterabbit]

I tried to create an indoor range friendly load off this stack with bluedot.

Total failure.

Back to BP! Shoulda never questioned that woul dbe the most important part of the equation!

[RMc]

http://www.ctmuzzleloaders.com/ctml_experiments/rbballistics/web_apps/rb_ballistics.html



Tested 95 grs OE FFg today at 100 yards. Accuracy was 2 - 2.5" but got it up to 1344 fps, albeit with fairly brutal recoil. That's 1483 ft/lbs and a Taylor KO of 44.My ballistic app doesn't allow for round ball but I'm betting it's close to 1000 at 100 yards.

I think this is going to be a great rifle for walking up hogs.

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[RPRNY]

Thanks very much !!! [emoji1]

[Rball]

Gentlemen, I have read this thread a couple of times. I just joined this site, so I can now add some new ideas. If you have shotgun with screw in chokes you have a tapered crimp device or buy one just for this purpose. You will have to decide the right amount of choke. AS long as the equator of the ball is at least below the mouth of the shell and a reasonably tight fit, it should keep the shell from collapsing while the choke tube applies a tapered crimp. I think, as was suggested an arbor press or a home made device to apply straight downward pressure would be good.