IMR 7383

[sundog]

"Good stuff, Maynard!"

Shot High Power today in wind, trying to rain, cold, overcast, whine, whine, whine, BUT, we were out there DOING IT! Got a new [to me] Win Mdl 70 from the their custon shop what had never been used and stuck a set of Redfield Olympic and Palmas on it. Dandy rifle, for sure! Excellent trigger, almost too good, a couple shots got away from off hand. Rails may not be just exactly right as last round up had a tendency to want to pop out (one did on rapid prone) instead of feed. That round that popped out went in the grass right in front of me and was no problem to pick up load and fire. Here I am a lefty, working yet another wrong (right) sided bolt gun and all kinds of time to get the rapid fire strings off. Anyway, all went well, especially the ammo that I had tested last fall. We had talked about it over on the other board, too.

A Sierra 168 BTHP over 50.0 IMR 7383 fills the case to the base of the neck so the bullet just sits on top of it with not wiggle room. Talk about perfect. Although my scores could have been better, my final tally was 702-15X which was okay for first time out with new load, new rifle, and less than favorable conditions (crappy). Slow fire prone was 188-5X and I was happy with that. Last fall this load went across the chrono at avg 2400 with a single digit SD and an ES in the teens. Just thought I'd bring y'all up to date on this powder. sundog

[Maven]

Sundog, Even though it's an oddball, I have nothing but success with 7383 and jacketed bullets (.243Win. & .30-06) and occasionally with CB's (K-31). The stuff is a bargain, but treat it with respect. 8) ...Maven

[BCB]

I've used it in the 30-30 and the 7-30 Waters (T/C Contender for both) with cast bullets and it is a very accurate powder in the 30-30 and very acceptable in the Waters. As Maven indicated, respect is needed. Many different opinions exist as too its burn rate and pressure spikes. Don't know about those, but I have used 4064 as starting data and have had no problems with my particular lot. Good-luck...BCB

[Oldfeller]

Aw come on guys, that IMR 7383 stuff is just about as dangerous as beef stroganoff is. And we all know how dangerous that partially heat & time decomposed stuff is -- a strange smelling unstable mixture of cooked egg noodles and sour cream mixed into a bunch of stewed beef.

You can open up a sealed refrigerated container of fresh stroganoff and instantly tell what it is from the very first sniff of the slightly sour odour. (hey, same as a fresh jug of IMR 7383)

However, put beef stroganoff in the hands of of an unskilled reloader and he MIGHT innocently thinks it is OK to use too much of it in a large overbore bottle necked magnum case and he MIGHT get all unexpectedly orgasmic with it. Violently organsmic -- he could split his head or bust out his shoulder or stretch his pocket until his primers fell out on the ground.

Very Bad things .... ouchie !!! We don't want to do action destruction tests unless we know that is what we are planning for today, right?

And we all remember from our Shooters days just what farmers mean when they call a rural reloading activity "beef stroganoff" -- it is the technique by which they get old Boris the bull to pressure load all those little test tubes of stroganoff so they can sell it to all them lonely hearted Bessie cows who want to get pregnant this winter (what with their biological clocks ticking and all).

Stroganoff is also exactly what old Ric used to do to recently released world class cast bullet ex-spurts when they would pontificate unsupported opinions as facts (which also used to get GrayBeard all stiff necked too).

Now, GrayBeard was a moderator on another shooting forum. He didn't always care much for having his Boris stroganoffed, but you have to admit Ric did a very good job of it. There has to be a certain amount of back & forth, and some subtleness to it, or you are just yanking his chain instead of stroking him. Now old GraybBeard does like to get stroked (whoo boy, you certainly could tell) but he wasn't swift enough to know when he was getting stroganoffed by an expert like Ric.

Now, suppose we had to deal with a temporary bit of Graybeard-itis on the part of our very own -- should we stroganoff them a bit gently to get their attention and gently correct them? Subtly, of course -- in the old tried and true Shooters fashion.

Now old Carpetman Ray, he could certainly appreciate the subtleness of this lubricious & civilized approach, he moderated a list of rough yahoos and gently chided us for years to moderate our outlandish behaviour.

And he must have been successful, see how nice Waksupi and Buckshot turned out?

<g>

Oldfeller

[Maven]

All, Oldfeller & I know IMR 7383 isn't dangerous, but if you're new to reloading or experimenting with milsurp powders, this Bud ain't for you! Here's why:
1) No reloading data or cross-referencing to other powders was provided by the seller, Hi Tech in my case. I'd bet that's true of Bartlett, et al as well.

2) Can we assume all lots of 7383 are of the same burning rate? If not, who's willing to risk life & limb to find out?

3) Buckshot on the Aimoo CB Bd. found it was "spiky." That hasn't been my experience, but then I haven't sought max. velocity with it either. Neither did he.

4) Roger Bartsche on the AR>Reloading forum summarized what milsurp powder experimenters (cranks?) wrote about 7383. (I'm sure he'll be glad to e-mail a copy to you.) He also sent it to Hi Tech. I wrote them as well, but never received a response.

5) Does 7383 behave identically in all cartridge, bullet weight combinations? No, but neither do most propellants. Ergo, one must be especially vigilant about it.

6) Several experimenters, e.g., Buckshot & Roger, have suggested using IMR 4064 or H 380 as a starting point, chronographing your loads and making appropriate changes (if any). That is excellent advice.

7) Although my experience with it has been confined to 3 cartridges, I'd be happy to tell you more if you send me a PM. ...Maven

[Oldfeller]

Maven, my post really wasn't about IMR 7383 powder

(not entirely, anyway).

I was also making sure that folks could cut a beef stroken-off joke on this new list without getting it censored for fear of offending distaff or under 21 type persons.

You see, it is important to aim this new list at the over 21 gun-guy type folks and to make sure to allow a free discourse at an adult male level. We need to establish this from the very beginning on this new board -- it is sort of important to do this now.

Why? In case you didn't notice a while back we had some oldtimers dropping off due to "lack of interest" and in a very very few cases due to simple anger at some cleaned up postings. No one actually meant to anger anybody, but we forgot our roots for a few minutes there and tried to be a "G" rated list.

Hate to tell you this, but our old roots are "R" rated. Shooters was a place you could talk freely and that is why it was Shooters.

We've got all our folks back now and we are by and large all being very civilized -- but we don't want to be stuffy and boring either. We have a fresh start again and we can perhaps choose not to fall into some of the pitfalls that we tripped up on last time around. That is why I am very glad to see Waksupi as one of our new moderators.

Remember, this list is sometimes the brightest spot in a very dull week for some of us.

Oldfeller

[Maven]

Oldfeller, I was aware of two, should I say, adult humor/off-color remarks on the Aimoo site, which led to one member leaving in a huff and the other being censored. Perhaps my memory is faulty, but I don't recall the Shooters Talk site being so offensive, adult-oriented or even raunchy. Yet, these are quasi-public forums and so I try to confine my remarks to the topic at hand in the same manner that I would if speaking to a general audience or my classes. I'm no prude, but I can live with less of the "guy talk" (for lack of a better phrase) even though I'm not offended by it. Just my $0.02, ...Maven

[StarMetal]

Maven

I remember on the old Shooters there were two guys that had a constant on going fighting. The one I'm sure of that that was MasterShooter and the other not sure sure of the name but went something like this..Ballistics from Scotland or something like that. I know at the time he was living in Kuwait. Boy some of the most rotten stuff was said between the two, not some much swear words, but really degrading things. I think that is far worse then what I've seen anywhere else. They eventually brought it to the Political thread, but it never ended.

Joe

[wills]

There is a significant distinction between an occasional risqué joke and entire pages of obtuse blather. At times remarks have been so bogged down in attempts at “humor” as to be incomprehensible without decoding, which is unfortunate as they often contained otherwise astute observations.

[waksupi]

Wills - I agree with you. Most of us like a joke, but endlessly beating something into the ground gets tiresome. I've been out of junior high for quite a few years. If something gets too obnoxius, they would hear from me in a PM. Fortunately, there isn't too much of a problem with this group.

[Oldfeller]

Sounds like we will be having some fair amount of shenagegans and adult banner, but if they drift on too long we will get the private "word to the wise". This sounds like a reasonable method of having a bit of lattitude in posting without having to spend time worrying about someone wanting to have a strictly "G" rated list.

Me, run a sophmoric funny into the ground? Never !!! Hey, pass me the lantern and we'll climb on back up to ground level and get us fresh air .....

Oldfeller

[sundog]

Okay, gatcha'll another update. Shot high power in the wind, yet again, today. I'm talkin' BIG wind, shootin' straight into it with it quartering to either side, prolly 25 gusting to [you pick a number over 40]. Same load and rifle that started this thread. Finished with a 726/800-13X. Slow fire prone was dandy with 7 Xs and the 'X' istself was gone. Shootin' in these conditions ain't for sissies. Had a good time. Good people, too.

Started cleaning as soon as I got home. Eds Red to get the carbon out. Felix and I talked about this the other night on the phone, too. More ER until no more carbon then Hoppes Bench Rest (always has worked good for me for copper removal). Well, results like before, almost NO copper. I'll keep the bore wet overnight with periodic dry and wet patches and finish tomorrow. Felix's idea was that the copper simply is not even getting to the steel to leave a deposit because of the powder residue (bore is actually shiny and NO powder particles, just carbon). Fine with me as clean up is easy. Anyway, having a nice diversion with the heathen bullets. Actually, if I'd get my rearend in gear and do my part I COULD get my Master Certification this year with this rifle and load. sundog

[C1PNR]

Okay, gatcha'll another update. Shot high power in the wind, yet again, today. I'm talkin' BIG wind, shootin' straight into it with it quartering to either side, prolly 25 gusting to [you pick a number over 40]. Same load and rifle that started this thread. Finished with a 726/800-13X. Slow fire prone was dandy with 7 Xs and the 'X' istself was gone. Shootin' in these conditions ain't for sissies. Had a good time. Good people, too.

Started cleaning as soon as I got home. Eds Red to get the carbon out. Felix and I talked about this the other night on the phone, too. More ER until no more carbon then Hoppes Bench Rest (always has worked good for me for copper removal). Well, results like before, almost NO copper. I'll keep the bore wet overnight with periodic dry and wet patches and finish tomorrow. Felix's idea was that the copper simply is not even getting to the steel to leave a deposit because of the powder residue (bore is actually shiny and NO powder particles, just carbon). Fine with me as clean up is easy. Anyway, having a nice diversion with the heathen bullets. Actually, if I'd get my rearend in gear and do my part I COULD get my Master Certification this year with this rifle and load. sundog

sundog,

Two questions:
1) Have you tried Kroil? Your thoughts?
2) What brass and primers are you using with this load?

I'm still looking for a range in this area with some military rifle competitions using other than current issue rifles. I've found one that has one "WWII Battle Rifle" shoot per year. I know there are more, so it's just a matter of "keep looking" until I find.

I hope I don't have to go all the way over to Mountain Home. That's a 46 mile Interstate drive that seems to take 6 hours. The scenery is VERY consistent (sage brush with a hill in the far away background) on both sides. After the first 500 yards you've seen all the variations there are.http://castboolits.gunloads.com/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif

[sundog]

Wow, all y'all (that's okie for everone - plural of y'all), are kinda chatty tonight. I'm gone just two hours prepping 32 Win Spl brass for me and Felix for tomorrow, making Mrs Sundog a hot tea (with honey, but of course), running another patch through the rifle and taking the dog out to poop, and I come back there's over a full page of posts! Did y'all see that big ole moon out tonight? It sure is purdy!

C1PNR, no on Kroil, never used it. Got a shootin' buddy what swears by it though. All I've ever used is Hoppe's 9 (country boy perfume) and BR, all the GI stuff including CLP, Shooter's Choice products, and recently tried Gun Scrubber (Birchwood Casey?). The Hoppe's BR with black label seems to be an okay copper solvent and that's what I've settled on at my house. Of course, always ample supply of Ed's Red.

Brass is Winchester. Primers are Rem 9 1/2. Maven was insistent is his write up to NOT use mag primers. Okay by me. sundog

[Maven]

Sundog, et al, Just to reinforce the message, I fired my .243Win. the other day with 40gr. IMR 7383, WLR primers in Rem. brass and 87gr. Hornady BTHP's. The best group (at 100yds.) was 7 in a circle you could cover with a nickel. Again, there is no need to use mag. primers with 7383: Cases were clean, no unburned powder was left in either the cases or the bbl. ...Maven

[StarMetal]

Maven

I believe one of the rules for mag primer use is when you have a large column of powder to ignite in a very spacious case and/or when you have a fair amount of slow burning powder. Now I'm not sure the 243 qualifies for enough slow burning powder for mag primer use, but anyways that power might be like the surplus 5010 whereas it burns pretty completely in overbore calibers or bottlenecked small bores such as my 260 Rem. That powder might not burn as well in a larger bore caliber without a mag primer. I haven't played with that particular powder yet, but have with the 5010 and it reacts differently in different calibers more so then a standard powder like say 4350.

Guess you saying you don't need that mag primer in your 243 is correct.

Joe

[sundog]

Maven, thanks for the followup.

Now we need some definitive data for .308 Win and 168 BTHP (or any other bullet someone wants to work with). Any idea for a start load?

Felix left just a little while ago. We all had a good day. Good fellowship, good meal (thanks to Mrs Sundog and grandson Joseph, the deer slayer). I mention this because we worked with several flavors of 844, and one flavor each of 2230-C, and Data Powder 73 all in 32 Win Spl and 35 Rem. Also shot some 45 Colt (3 different boolits) with 4756. All that for another post (and some more to add to castpics later in the week).

[Bret4207]

Re- Old Fellers posts: There's a difference between humour, slightly off color or not, and deliberate attempts to piss people off and have our own way. If this was a private conversation between guys in emails or something then I'd say do as you wish. But it's a public forum and I'd really prefer to try and stay a bit above the level of some of the other boards. Just because someone knows how to spell every off color word in the book doesn't mean it's needed in a public forum. I'm as dirty mouthed as anyone and certainly consider myself as manly as anyone else here. It's not a matter of being a wuss or keeping things G rated. I think it's ignorant to post otherwise intelligent thoughts with the same type of words you used when you were 14 and trying to impress your friends. It's exactly like being in a restaurant or store and having someone start mother f-ing his kids or otherwise airing his dirty laundry in front of the whole world. It's ignorant and it's another example of the degradation of American culture and society. But, today it seems as though the word is that it's your God given right to be abrasive and rude and " in your face". I choose to try not to be that way. I'll take the sugestion and use a PM if I think someones getting out of hand.

[Maven]

All, With respect to IMR 7383, I sent a PM to MT Gianni about this last evening, but will summarize it here. To wit, since none of us really knows what 7383's burning rate(s) is/are, we've loaded it, with jacketed bullets as if it were IMR 4064 (using standard LR primers) and chronographed the results. It generally proved to be slower than IMR 4064, but slightly faster than IMR 4350. It is also significantly bulkier than IMR 4350. Here are the velocities I got in the .243Win. and the .30-06:

.243Win. + WLR primers + Sierra 85gr. SP & Hornady 87gr. BTSP, Rem. cases (Ruger #1, 26" bbl.)

38gr -> 2,638 fps +- 42 fps
41gr -> 2,911 " +- 37 "
42gr -> 3,066 " +- 26 "
42.5 -> 3,095 " +- 22 " THIS IS A MAX. LOAD!


.30-06 + WLR primers + Sierra 130gr. SP, Rem. & Win. cases (Win. Mod. 70, 22" bbl.)

55gr. IMR 4350 -> 2,545 fps +- 23 fps

55gr. IMR 7383 -> 2,697 fps +- 22 fps

In both rifles accuracy with 7383 was significantly better than 1 m.o.a (anywhere from 7 to 10 shots in 1" @ 100 yds.). Also, I think 7383 is temperature sensitive, so be especially careful with max. loads if you treat 7383 and IMR 4350 as equal in burning rate, which they are not.

As for IMR 5010 and its near twin in ball powder, WC 860, they most certainly DO require mag. primers to improve their efficiency. Even with said primers, there's still a huge amount of unburned powder left behind, not to mention that which is blown out the bbl., with almost full-case charges (e.g., 48gr. of either in the .30-06) & CB's. You can improve things some by using a duplex load, which I've never tried or by adding a filler such as Grex (generic term) or powdered bran (bran in a coffee mill a la Jay Downs/Aladin), BUT ONLY FOR IMR 5010. The idea is to use ~a full case load, e.g., 47-48gr. in the .30-06, then add enough filler, e.g., 1cc in this instance, to allow a slightly compressed load when the bullet is seated. Store the loaded rounds with the CB's down/case heads/primers up and you'll have no problems with the filler migrating into the powder.

Lastly, for many of you fillers of any kind are taboo. For me they're an extra step and a PITA, plus they don't make 5010 super-efficient. Figure it out: Half the powder is unburned, making the real cost per jug 2x what you paid plus an additional cost for the filler & mag. primer. The better way is to use something like 5744, which is expensive or some of the pistol powders, e.g., Unique, the "Dots," or milsurp WC 820. And yes, this suggests we really have come full circle. Forgive my long-windedness, ...Maven


5