WWII cast boolit history lesson in Herter's reloading manual ? LOL

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

While thumbing through my old Herter's reloading manual, for some info on longitudinal lube grooves for a post in the Swaging forum, I stumbled onto this interesting bit of info, that Ole Goerge just had to include in the cast bullet section.

http://i640.photobucket.com/albums/uu127/JonB_in_Glencoe/boolits%20on%20humans%20pt%20I_zps9biz6qyd.jpg (http://s640.photobucket.com/user/JonB_in_Glencoe/media/boolits%20on%20humans%20pt%20I_zps9biz6qyd.jpg.htm l)

http://i640.photobucket.com/albums/uu127/JonB_in_Glencoe/boolits%20on%20humans%20pt%20II_zps3ugnqi3o.jpg (http://s640.photobucket.com/user/JonB_in_Glencoe/media/boolits%20on%20humans%20pt%20II_zps3ugnqi3o.jpg.ht ml)

[OS OK]

I knew that Patton was a strange duck but never read an article that called him an ought right coward. Seems that I did read something about him in one of the Blue Press monthly catalogues where he and some other half wits used to 'mexican carry' the 1911. Seems that they got in a running shootout and Patton almost shot his own nutz off by accident. He didn't like the 1911 after that. He was in the Mexican border wars as a fresh Lieutenant working under or with Pershing at the time…I think?

WWII has some colorful characters for sure…OS OK

[runfiverun]

he carried an 1873 in 45 colt when under Pershing.
he proved himself in that little fracas south of the border.
airc he killed 3-4 men in one shoot-out when they come riding in to take him and some other men out of action.

[lightman]

Thats an interesting bit of history. I have some 38 special cases with a military headstamp. I also have some fairly modern Remington 38 special ammo that has fmj bullets. I'll have to dig it out and check the headstamp.

[Victor N TN]

I don't know about since. But in 1972 the US Air Force had to qualify with several different guns. Among them was a 38 revolver.

[HangFireW8]

For those not familiar, anything written by George L. Herter (including his psuedonyms) must be taken with very large doses of salt.

[runfiverun]

we still had some kicking around in the 80's.
I got to keep mine in favor over the Beretta 9m until I left in the early 90's.
sometimes I could carry the 1911 depending on who I was working for/with at the time.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

While General Patton had his failings, I haven't heard that anybody numbered cowardice among them, or lost face because of his personal armament. My impression is that Herter briefly and quite unreasonably criticized him, but went on to talk about some other and less palatable sort of screwball. I remember seeing pictures of the pistols Patton carried in WW2. It was a long time ago, but one was a Colt SAA (although I believe he had earlier carried a pair), and the other a .357 Magnum. They were ivory handled, nor pearl, and he said that only a New Orleans pimp would carry pearl-handled pistols. I don't know why he singled out New Orleans.

He was involved in an incident in New York city in peacetime, when he rescued at pistol-point a lady being bundled into a truck by two men, and found out that they were her husband and brother, and she didn't want rescuing. I believe his Mexican shoot-out occurred after climbing a wall into a building, and it might have been a case of if he's dead, he's a Villista. In terms of eccentricity he pales into insignificance with Lieutenant-Colonel "Mad Jack" Churchill (no relation) who always went into battle with bagpipes, longbow and Scottish broadsword, and in the campaign of Dunkirk made the last longbow kill by a British soldier.

The British decision to use jacketed .38 revolver bullets was taken well before WW2, and for the .455 in 1939. It was most likely early in the year, before they became too busy, and would be hard to attribute to American experience with the Germans. While there are many convincing accounts of the Germans using wooden bullets in the Spandau machine-gun (and no other I know of), they are a lot more likely to splinter harmlessly than horribly. It had a peculiarly high rate of fire, and my theory is that it may have been a device to interrupt the long bursts with which barely trained troops might have depleted the magazine.

[gwpercle]

Herter's is one company that I really miss a lot . I still have one 1973 catalog....wish I had kept more.
Herter's was the Midway of that era....surprising how much Herter's stuff is for sale on Ebay ! sometimes I just type in Herter's to see what comes up.
I'm still using their dies ,shell holders , moulds and plastic bullet boxes to this day ! Not to mention the Walnut stocks I used to "fix up " a few military rifles into "sporter's" , sure do miss them !

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Oh yes indeed, very good at what they do best. But historical information isn't that.

[M-Tecs]

Herter's is one company that I really miss a lot . I still have one 1973 catalog....wish I had kept more.


Everything was the latest, greatest and best. Lots of hot air but lots of real cool stuff also.

Patton was a very interesting man. If George was writing about Patton that was on of his taller tales.

http://www.history.com/news/10-things-you-may-not-know-about-george-patton

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_S._Patton

http://www.******oftheweek.com/patton.html

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julio_C%C3%A1rdenas

[Shiloh]

Patton a coward??
Most senior officers are behind the lines, but calling Patton a coward is nonsense.

SHiloh

[paul edward]

Lieutenant-Colonel "Mad Jack" Churchill (no relation) who always went into battle with bagpipes, longbow and Scottish broadsword, and in the campaign of Dunkirk made the last longbow kill by a British soldier.

Thank you for that reference. I had not heard of Mad Jack. Definitely a colorful character.

[hanover67]

The Herters catalogue was a great read. I have several of the "Herters' Ancient Decoys" decorating my living room.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Thank you for that reference. I had not heard of Mad Jack. Definitely a colorful character.

Of course we wouldn't want them all to be like that. We wouldn't want them all to be like anything. In a way Patton was lucky, in finding situations which suited his style, and an enemy no longer in a situation to mould warfare into the opposite of that style. In a way the common comparisons with Montgomery are unfair, for Patton was never in a situation where one big mistake through rashness could have destroyed his country. I think the Germans lost their in four stages. There was letting a third of a million men escape from France; losing the Battle of Britain and sending their army to be worn down in Russia. But it became unwinnable the day the Allies got ashore in force. Still, I wonder if it is true in the George C. Scott movie, that Patton said he and Montgomery were both prima donnas? In a sense they were as alike as two peas. People who invariably do things right and by the book make good staff colonels.

[varmint243]

It seems that the media has made hero's out of many of the nut-job butcher/cowards that sent masses of young men off to their death.
I strongly suspect that the person who wrote that article had true knowledge from a different perspective than what was portrayed in the media.
MacArthur was also supposed to be a hero, the more I learn, the more I wonder how anyone could possibly have portrayed him that way.

[dikman]

Very amusing article, although I found the writing style a little, shall we say, lacking.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

It seems that the media has made hero's out of many of the nut-job butcher/cowards that sent masses of young men off to their death.
I strongly suspect that the person who wrote that article had true knowledge from a different perspective than what was portrayed in the media.
MacArthur was also supposed to be a hero, the more I learn, the more I wonder how anyone could possibly have portrayed him that way.

I believe that is true about his perspective. But I think it was the perspective of deciding who he didn't like on grounds of manner, and then making the evidence fit. Before the internet, even.

Britain has had redder-handed butchers than the US, such as French and Haig in the First World War. But history is coming around to the view that they were constrained by the resources and knowledge of 1914-16. Trying to do things differently could have invited disaster, and when the war opened up in 1918, Haig convincingly outgeneraled Ludendorff. (It was a shame about 1917, though.) To match them, or more, you would have to look to the Soviet Marshals Budyonny and Voroshilov in 1941-42, who were so stupid that the others noticed. But even Budyonny is now shown by Soviet records to have argued forcefully with Stalin (as somebody devoid of political ambition or ability could do) that he needed to retreat to a better line to avoid disaster. All of these were personally brave men, but high command is a management job.

McArthur is an odd case. I don't think any general who ever lived could have saved the Philippines at that time. His manner could be unfortunate, but I believe his wife was in the habit of sounding off in public about deficiencies unfit to be mentioned here, which is bound to make a man a bit too concerned with the size of his corncob.

Churchill was in the White House as resistance on Corregidor crumbled, and showed Roosevelt a copy of his instruction, written in his own hand, to Lord Gort, who had commanded the Dunkirk evacuation. It ordered him, denying him any discretion, that should communication be cut and his force diminish to the equivalent of three divisions, he would hand over to a corps commander nominated by himself, and return to the UK. A few days later Mr. Stimson asked Churchill for a copy, and he says he hoped, but did not know, that it might have influenced the evacuation of McArthur. Lord Gort was by no stretch of the imagination one of the great generals of history, although under terrible stress he didn't get any worse. A man like that, with experience of the new kind of war, was too valuable to lose.

[.455 Webley]

If you look at the context clues in the text its clear that he is not talking about George Patton. The writer states that he still knows this officer. Since Patton died in late 1945 and this was written in the later 50's, its doubtful the writer would would claim to still know a dead man. Also Patton's father was not a West Point man. He also died in 1927 and would likely not be able to lobby for his sons promotion from beyond the grave. Patton was also pulled from command after the Sicily campaign and sat out the Italian campaign. Not having fought in Italy makes it unlikely that he would have a combat related mental breakdown in Italy.

All that aside i have also read that the Germans threatened to execute all prisoners captured with shotguns. Was that based on the idea that the 12 gauge was unfair or did it come from the buck shot being technically an all lead projectile?

[dondiego]

I thought that the shotgun warning was from WWl. They were efficient at clearing trenches.

[N4AUD]

Patton was no coward. He didn't carry .38's and his handguns didn't have pearl handles. He also wasn't in the Italian Campaign unless we count Sicily, so perhaps the article is talking about someone else?

[Kraschenbirn]

I saw quite a few military-issue .38 revolvers in Viet Nam, mostly S&W M10s but also a few parkerized Colts marked "USN". I was a Huey crewchief with 1st Cav and all our flight crews...pilots, crewchiefs, and gunners...were issued S&Ws and our ammo was 130 gr. FMJs. As soon as I managed to snag onto a 1911, that Smith got cleaned, oiled and packed away until it was turned in at the end of my tour.

Bill

[dondiego]

I didn't read it as being about Patton either.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

I didn't read it as being about Patton either.

I think it is pretty clear that he shifted from Patton to some less distinguished officer of his acquaintance, or of his hearsay. No doubt one coloured his opinion of the other, but I don't know which came first, the chicken or the egg.

[paul edward]

I thought that the shotgun warning was from WWl. They were efficient at clearing trenches.

Those shotguns were still in use when I was issued one in 1971. The weapon issued for the ambulance driver in my unit was an 1897 Winchester. It was a much better weapon than the M-79 I normally carried.

[Bent Ramrod]

George L. thought he was a master at heaping innuendo on people and giving just enough description of them so those "in the know" would know who he was talking about but not, perhaps, enough to be legally actionable.

He went on in one of his books about a dapper Captain who cruised the front lines with jeep and driver looking for unusual weapons. He had, according to Herter, written a loading manual that was "dangerously obsolete." The hard-boiled, combat line troops (of which George L. was one) told him he'd better get out of there before somebody used him for target practice. The dapper Captain turned pale, drove off, and was never seen again.

It isn't beyond the limits of probability that he was referring to Ordnance Captain Philip B. Sharpe.

Jack O'Connor wrote in his autobiography of a "backwoods tycoon" who, when rebuffed upon offering his loading tools to O'Connor for a fulsome review, went after a "certain gun writer and .270 enthusiast" who was giving false and dangerous advice to inquiries in his national magazine. Jack said he called the "backwoods tycoon" (anybody wanna guess?) up and explained to him that one doesn't have to identify somebody by name and social security number to be open to a libel suit. According to Jack, the "tycoon" wilted like frozen lettuce and didn't broach the subject again.

[Lonegun1894]

Pick me! Pick me! Pick me! I will Guess Keith, since the two of them seemed to have a ongoing feud. Am I right? What do I win?

[Ballistics in Scotland]

George L. thought he was a master at heaping innuendo on people and giving just enough description of them so those "in the know" would know who he was talking about but not, perhaps, enough to be legally actionable.

He went on in one of his books about a dapper Captain who cruised the front lines with jeep and driver looking for unusual weapons. He had, according to Herter, written a loading manual that was "dangerously obsolete." The hard-boiled, combat line troops (of which George L. was one) told him he'd better get out of there before somebody used him for target practice. The dapper Captain turned pale, drove off, and was never seen again.

It isn't beyond the limits of probability that he was referring to Ordnance Captain Philip B. Sharpe.

Jack O'Connor wrote in his autobiography of a "backwoods tycoon" who, when rebuffed upon offering his loading tools to O'Connor for a fulsome review, went after a "certain gun writer and .270 enthusiast" who was giving false and dangerous advice to inquiries in his national magazine. Jack said he called the "backwoods tycoon" (anybody wanna guess?) up and explained to him that one doesn't have to identify somebody by name and social security number to be open to a libel suit. According to Jack, the "tycoon" wilted like frozen lettuce and didn't broach the subject again.

Ex-PFC Hitler had a perfectly sincere objection to poison gas, the atomic bomb and cruelty to animals, but campaigners against those things would feel pretty gloomy at seeing him lending a hand with the cause. Herter doesn't appear quite the person to condemn anyone for being a self-seeking prima donna.

I value Sharpe's "The Rifle in America", although it isn't the reloading manual. But how does a reloading manual become dangerously obsolete? If you can only get the wrong components, above all the powders, the user bears the responsibility for finding his own danger in what would still be an interesting source. I think Sharpe had a mischievous eye for human failings, and may have touched Herter on the raw at times. Good as his technology was, there was quite a bit of raw to be touched on.

All of those people wrote at a time of great innovation in the firearms and reloading industry. People were putting together science and technology nobody was teaching them. You couldn't go out and get college credits in firearms technology. The controllers of spies know that second-stringers will obey all the rules, all the time, but they have to tolerate the best ones playing their own hands, blowing their own trumpets, carrying water to their own wells, and that sort of thing.

[varmint243]

My statement was more generic than specific
Patton and MacArthur were both cowards that were perfectly willing without remorse (psychopathic) to send masses of young men to their death while facing no danger to themselves.
In many cases this was not strategically significant or done with good cause.

I am inclined to believe that Colin Powell and Norman Schwarzkopf would have brought every serviceperson home without a scratch if possible.

[OS OK]

varmint243...
In WWII they didn't have 'smart bombs' and 'drones' to do the nasty work of annihilating a frenzied and fanatical enemy. They actually had to root them out and dispatch them face to face. Comparing McArthur and Patton's tactics is comparing apples to oranges, two completely different theaters of war. Same weapons different applications. Military leaders are trained to lead from the rear, how else would they survive and apply their hard learned tactics, some of which had to be developed to meet the circumstances in the field…Both of these Generals did their share of leading from the front and were reprimanded either from Congress or the President for doing so. Hedgerows in the E.T. and jungle in the P.T., two entirely different theaters, it took brave men to charge into combat, still does…there are no cowards in combat troops that follow orders without running away…some orders are harder than others and men die in war…that is the 'hell of it'. Perhaps if more people like yourself and our politicians had more first hand experience with war…maybe it would stop forever.
Cowards…?…you have a skewed point of view at least.

OS OK

[varmint243]

>>>Perhaps if more people like yourself and our politicians had more first hand experience with war…maybe it would stop forever<<<

Please be careful making such a statement without knowing anything about someone

While I was fortunate to have served in peacetime,
I did see surely some stuff, the most notable being the collision at sea between the USS Jason and USS Willamette.
I was on the com in Repair 5 for the incident, fire, flooding, fatalities, and a totally botched damaged control effort.
I also was in a serious flooding on the USS Brewton in a severe tropical storm, (I discovered and reported it it while on watch)
as well as another incident of an 800 gallon lube oil spill in the mail engine room.
(oil isn't particularly flammable until it gets heated up, like when sprayed all over an engine room)

On the plus side I was very fortunate to have served aboard the ship that brought the Vietnam Unknown Serviceman from Hawaii to California in 1984.

So was it combat, no, but it was a good solid 7.5 on the no-fun-o-meter for sure

I hold to my statement of Patton and MacArthur being cowards that were portrayed by media and government propaganda to have been heroes

[6622729]

I'm lost at this point.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

All generals have to behave like cowards, by the standards they learned in youth and would mostly feel better for continuing. Remember General Lee saying that to be a soldier a man must love the army, but to be a commander he must be prepared to destroy the thing he loves. We would have to see inside the minds of men well used to acting, to know how far remorse affected them. I don't believe listening to the various people who have given vent to their own prejudices over the last few decades, in print or electrons, is much help.

[Bent Ramrod]

Capt. Sharpe was charged with gathering up specimens of any advanced or unusual German weapons advances or developments for study by the Ordnance Department, and so was doing his assigned duty the same as George L. Sneering at him as a well-dressed and groomed rear echelon gun collector and writer of "dangerously obsolete" handloading information was pretty much in character for Herter. I wonder sometimes how the exchange really turned out. Somehow I see the denouement as being more realistic if George L. got a week's KP for mouthing off to an officer.

George L. had a low opinion of all rival writers on hunting, fishing, shooting, handloading and outdoor topics, manufacturers of items for same and their products, restauranteurs, cooks, professional hunters, and his own customers and readers. In the last two cases at least, he was graciously willing to educate us boneheads in the Right Way to go about things. The instructions in his cookbooks typically start with "Only five people in North America know how to boil an egg properly," and it goes on from there. The cumulative effect of this peeved, injured annoyance at all our failings, and the pedantic but sincere attempts to lead us back from our strayed condition is, at least for me, a lot of hilarious amusement. It's a red-letter day when I can enhance my small collection of Herter's books by another specimen.

To his credit, his books are better written and more grammatical than a lot of modern publications, even though the new stuff is backed by Spell-Check and all the computerized assists. And the books do contain a lot of sound advice in addition to the crack-brained editorializing and Inside Info. It appears, for instance, that he got a real professional taxidermist to ghostwrite his Professional Taxidermy book, but, of course, the Herter's interpolations are in there too and immediately recognizable. There is a picture of a Shrunken Head somewhere along in there, with a short discourse on how the contents of the head are removed, hot sand put into it to shrink it, sewing up the eye and mouth holes, etc. And then Herter's advice to the aspiring professional taxidermist: "Always refuse work of this kind.":mrgreen:

[M-Tecs]

The EX's great uncle served directly under Patton an enlisted aide. I only talked to him about Patton once 30 years ago. He thought Patton was a GOD and the greatest man he ever met.

How he went from a tank commander with extensive frontline combat to one of Patton's aides is unclear, but, his view of Patton is good enough for me.

Herter on the other hand was full of himself and fully of BS most of the time. Herter had a habit of screwing over his suppliers.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

It was quite unselfish of Herter to teach those other four people how to boil an egg. If he hadn't, he would have been the only one. Practically all, if not all, privately owned shrunken heads are faked, and I can't see that a monkey minds being stuffed more or less than anybody else.

Nobody can fault his products, or judgment of the market, in a time when handloading etc. was in a state of rapid development. But it stops there... and would be better if he had.

[N4AUD]

I hold to my statement of Patton and MacArthur being cowards that were portrayed by media and government propaganda to have been heroes
Patton was no coward. In the Mexican Expedition before WWI, Patton and his small squad (in the first motorized combat) engaged in a firefight with Mexican bandits. Patton accounted for at least a couple of the enemy that were killed in that action. It's well documented.
In WWI he was in command of the US's first tank unit. The tanks IIRC were Renaults and were not reliable. When the tanks quit Patton led his men on foot and was wounded.
Patton was reprimanded more than once by Ike in WWII for exposing himself to danger.
He wasn't a coward. All of this is well documented and can be found online with a couple of keystrokes, or is available in one of the many biographies about Gen. Patton.

[Kraschenbirn]

In November of 1941, one of my uncles was a freshly-minted Second Lieutenant newly assigned to 2nd Armored. He spent the entire war serving under Patton... North Africa, Sicily, then going ashore at Normandy on D+3...and was commanding a scout company of M24 light tanks when he was wounded (and evacuated to England) in March of 1945. I don't believe he really 'liked' Patton but he respected him as a leader and I recall him saying that Patton was "a commander you could follow because he always had a plan and always fought to win."

Bill

[OS OK]

In November of 1941, one of my uncles was a freshly-minted Second Lieutenant newly assigned to 2nd Armored. He spent the entire war serving under Patton... North Africa, Sicily, then going ashore at Normandy on D+3...and was commanding a scout company of M24 light tanks when he was wounded (and evacuated to England) in March of 1945. I don't believe he really 'liked' Patton but he respected him as a leader and I recall him saying that Patton was "a commander you could follow because he always had a plan and always fought to win."

Bill

Well…there you go again, straight from the horses mouth, someone who 'actually' knew and served under him!
Let's hear about the accounts where Patton acted a coward…documented accounts from someone other than a 'pseudo hearsay artist'.
I think these Patton haters just have a 'burr in their panties'! They don't like much of nuttin, aim to be controversial bellyachers.

OS OK