.358 Trouble in 9MM

[swmass]

So I have an M&P FS and a glock 19 with a lone wolf barrel that I cast for. I started at .356 and got terrible leading. Bumped up to .357 and the leading went almost 100% away and my groups tightened up. The glock I am able to get about 2-3 inch groups off hand and am happy with that... but the m&p my groups open up to about 4-5 inches. Back when I was loading plated rounds I was able to hold a 2 inch group with that gun so I know its not me...

Anyway, after sizing some bullets to .358 to see if that helps I learned my barrel will not accept them... kind of. They dont plunk in with the authority that I would like when I do the plunk test.. but they do chamber. Thing is when I try to hand eject the round out it takes a little umph and I can see where the bullet is getting caught up from the marks on it. Anyone have this problem? I'd hate to have the barrel opened up to accept them come to find out I get leading with the .358s or something. My glocks doing fine with them and I like casting the same bullet for both... But I also miss being able to drive nails with the m&p...

Edit- little more info, Im loading lee 358 125gn RNFP with an OAL of 1.035. So they are short for 9mm. I have a 105 SWC mold that gets seated really short and they pass the plunk test but they dont feed in my m&p and get stuck up in my seating die..

[Pine Baron]

Get yourself L.E. Wilson Max Cartridge Gage. I also load that same boolit for my Walther CCP, Helwan Cadet (Beretta Brigadier clone) and Hi Point 995TS (of course I could load gravel and this thing would probably shoot it). I've gone down to 1.025 OAL but that's only using reduced powder charges. YMMV.

[tazman]

I can't help you too much. I own a Beretta 92FS. The chamber is roomy and will accept boolits sized to .360 as long as the crimp is good and the boolit does not contact the rifling.
Mine loves .358 and larger boolits since the barrel slugs at .357.
I get good accuracy from .357 on up. I get slight leading at .357 and none at all from .358 on up.
As Pine Baron said, "I could probably load gravel in it".

[scattershot]

Sounds like the rounds are chambering OK, But the bullet is being engraved by the lands in the barrel. About the only remedy is a bullet with a different ogive or a shorter OAL. I wouldn't modify the barrel.

[Pine Baron]

Thinking about this some more. I remember that the boolit was bulging the 9MM case. I replaced the expander plug in the 9MM die with a .38 S&W plug. I also Powder coat the boolits, then size to .358. All Lee stuff.

[farmerjim]

I had the same trouble with that boolit in my M&P 9. The throat would not take anything larger than .355. I sent the barrel to DougGuy and had the throat opened up (and crowned) It shoots the lee 358-125 like a dream.

[swmass]

It's gotta be the shape of the bullet.. I wonder if the 120 TC mold would help, the one I've got drops out of round though from .354-356. I tried taping it but it didn't help.. Just made my mold sticky. I don't want to change molds really since every 9mm mold I've owned drops too small.. The marks on the bullet are right above the case mouth. I don't get leading with .357 which is good.. But it just bugs shooting nice groups and then picking up the m&p and having em spread out

[EMC45]

Have you tried the .358 bullets in the Factory Glock barrel? I ask because I tried .358 in 2 different G19s (factory barrel) and they did the best with that size with no leading. When sized at .356 in the factory barrel they were keyholing and bouncing off the backstop. Bumped to .358 and they were killers!

[swmass]

Never tried lead in the stock barrel. I basically got the glock and barrel at the same time.

New thought - I currently water quench my bullets. Straight wheel weights. Maybe it would help if I let them air cool and sized to .357? Maybe the bullet would bump up a little more? I've never air cooled.. Always water quenched

[C. Latch]

I had the same trouble with that boolit in my M&P 9. The throat would not take anything larger than .355. I sent the barrel to DougGuy and had the throat opened up (and crowned) It shoots the lee 358-125 like a dream.

DougGuy is THE MAN if you have chamber issues.

I had the same problem with my M&P 9 Pro and sent it to DougGuy and it will now eat anything I feed it. That makes three semi-autos he has 'fixed' for me.

[runfiverun]

I know that particular boolit needs a pretty short oal to fit in many guns.

I'd try going to 1.025 and see how things feed and stuff.

[sigep1764]

I have some pistols with short leades that will only work well with tc boolits or the elco boolit. I size them 358 with no leading. You can try seating them deeper til the plunk and eject smoothly but you will need to lower your charge accordingly. And you will have to check to see if the case is getting expanded deep enough. 20 minutes in front of your press will answer these questions.

[Lloyd Smale]

something else to look at. Ive got three smith m&p 9s. a full sized a compact and a shield and they all run 358 bullets like a top. As a matter of fact I haven't found anything they wont run. Loading 9s over the years ive noticed there very easy to seat bullets in crooked. More so then any other round. Look at your loaded rounds carefully and see if theres a bulge showing in one side of the brass but not the other. I once loaded about a 1000 rounds for a ruger 9 before realizing this and none would run in the gun. a ran them through a lee factory crimp die and that helped enough to get most of them to shoot. Be careful when you start your bullet to insure you starting it straight and use only a small amount of crimp and id bet those 358s will run fine in your gun.

[mdi]

Good 9mm info here; http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?121737-Setting-up-for-boolits-in-a-new-9mm

[LAH]

Unlike Lloyd neither of my MPs will work with .358". They fail to go into battery but .357" works fine with the same bullet & OAL.

[Lloyd Smale]

I must have gotten lucky. I even shot my full sized gun with the lee 105 unsized and tumble lubed to see if it would work and it ran them like a sewing machine. The other two wouldn't though.

[OS OK]

167308I think it's too wide right there at the edge above the crimp groove…It will go almost into battery? Were the marks you found, there? Did those marks look like the ends of the lands or did they leave partial ring marks circumferentially?

OS OK

[Scharfschuetze]

I looked up the Lee boolit mould that you are referencing (and then found that OS OK posted a photo of it-Thanks OK) and see that it is a revolver design. No need for a crimp groove in a semi-auto boolit. Also the ogive for revolvers and be full calibre and it won't interfere with chambering, but in a semi-auto... well you see the problem. It's just the wrong boolit for what you want to do with your S&W M&P.

A couple of posters have already suggested that you go to a truncated cone design and I agree with that. I use truncated cone designs sized to .358 in a Hi-Power, Beretta FS and a Glock without any issues. No need to ream out the throat of your M&P as this design should work well and solve your problem.

[C. Latch]

It's just the wrong boolit for what you want to do with your S&W M&P.


I've lost count of the number of posters who use it successfully in 9mms....so I joined them. It feeds fine. The ogive shape isn't ideal for a short-chambered 9mm but it can be seated deep enough to overcome that in most guns, if not, have it throated.

[mdi]

I looked up the Lee boolit mould that you are referencing (and then found that OS OK posted a photo of it-Thanks OK) and see that it is a revolver design. No need for a crimp groove in a semi-auto boolit. Also the ogive for revolvers and be full calibre and it won't interfere with chambering, but in a semi-auto... well you see the problem. It's just the wrong boolit for what you want to do with your S&W M&P.

A couple of posters have already suggested that you go to a truncated cone design and I agree with that. I use truncated cone designs sized to .358 in a Hi-Power, Beretta FS and a Glock without any issues. No need to ream out the throat of your M&P as this design should work well and solve your problem.
Perhaps, but this is as close to an all around bullet I have. I use it in 3, 9mms (Ruger LCPs, FMX, and a Tokerev), two .38 Specials and a .357 Magnum. Just because the bullet has a crimp groove does not mean you have to roll crimp into it. Perhaps the ogive is "wrong" (why?) for a semi-auto, but I have seated this bullet to an OAL of 1.125" and it chambers nicely in my 9mms...

[swmass]

Checking back in. I have already tried to seat the bullets as short as 1.010 and still have the problem. There's a picture posted above and that is where my bullets are getting marks from hitting inside the barrel. I have the TC mold and it drops way small. That's when I got the idea to try a 358 mold. I've got top punch, 6 cavity mold and a pair of handles tied up in the bullet design. My glock loves em at 357 and I do too which is why I want to use this bullet in the m&p as well. I know it feeds them fine already. I also know the restraints of that bullet caused by its shape. For around the price of a new mold I'd rather just have the barrel done. It's gonna see many thousands of rounds so I'm just gonna do it now and be done with it. I'll check back in once I get it back. I'm sending it out Monday morning. Thanks for all the help guys

[Shiloh]

I had the same trouble with that boolit in my M&P 9. The throat would not take anything larger than .355. I sent the barrel to DougGuy and had the throat opened up (and crowned) It shoots the lee 358-125 like a dream.

Love that boolit.

It sits deeper in the case than 9mm boolits, so I worked up a load with Unique.

Shiloh

[LAH]

Lloyd my CZ 75 eats it all but for some reason my two MPs just won't work with 358s.

[DougGuy]

Here is a Glock G19 polygonal barrel I did for the same reason. Customer wanted to use .358" and this has some .3585" freebore and then it starts a long taper. These will plunk the long flat nosed boolits as long as you want to seat them, until they won't cycle through the magazine. It would dang near plunk them if you seated the boolit upside down. The longer throats shoot lights out.

http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb374/DougGuy/Cylinder%20Services/Glock%20Throating/Glock%2019%20Polygonal/DSC04946%20Custom_zpsxlhaio5t.jpg (http://s1202.photobucket.com/user/DougGuy/media/Cylinder%20Services/Glock%20Throating/Glock%2019%20Polygonal/DSC04946%20Custom_zpsxlhaio5t.jpg.html)

20° crown done in the lathe

http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb374/DougGuy/Cylinder%20Services/Glock%20Throating/Glock%2019%20Polygonal/DSC04957%20Custom_zpslkkej56a.jpg (http://s1202.photobucket.com/user/DougGuy/media/Cylinder%20Services/Glock%20Throating/Glock%2019%20Polygonal/DSC04957%20Custom_zpslkkej56a.jpg.html)

Feedramp gets a tiny radius and melted in everywhere

http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb374/DougGuy/Cylinder%20Services/Glock%20Throating/Glock%2019%20Polygonal/DSC04959%20Custom_zpsqtwe0l5z.jpg (http://s1202.photobucket.com/user/DougGuy/media/Cylinder%20Services/Glock%20Throating/Glock%2019%20Polygonal/DSC04959%20Custom_zpsqtwe0l5z.jpg.html)

The 9mm of all pistol cartridges is likely the single most dangerous cartridge if boolit setback occurs. Pressures can skyrocket unpredictably. That last .015" you needed to slam the end of the slide home can set a boolit back in the case enough to send pressures well in excess of 60,000psi. Throat the barrel, remove the interference, and use the load data as it is published with the published COA instead of seating deeper and creating potentially a secondary problem, as a workaround to the first.

A further note on Glock, S&W M&P, all poly framed Springfields, Walther, and any other tenifer or melonite or salt bath treated barrel..

These are tenifer hardened barrels and man, let me tell you they are HARD! Need coated carbide to cut these, I have a custom made reamer to my own specs that set me back several hundred bucks and it is the ONLY thing that will touch these salt bath hardened barrels. The Glock is not just surface hardened, it's all the way through. Have a carbide 20° crown cutter and all it did was SHINE the end of this barrel. I had to crown it in the lathe. Witness the carbide throater's work in the photo above, it cuts smoothly enough that no follow up polishing is needed, and with the hardness of these salt bath barrels, there isn't much beside diamond abrasives that would even polish them anyway. It is almost better to invest in the KKM or Lone Wolf stainless barrel, much easier to make it cast boolit friendly.

[rsrocket1]

I use both the Lee TL356-124-2R and 356-120-TC in my M&P 9FS (actually an MP& 40 with the factory stock 9mm barrel) and a Shield 9. My barrels slugged at 0.3545" with a 0.356" throat. The bullets drop at 0.358" and after I powder coat them, they are 0.360". I can shoot them as is, but I have to seat both bullets to a 0.27" seating depth. That puts the top tumble lube rib and the conical part of the TC bullet at the rim of the case. This prevents any part of the 0.360" diameter of the bullet above the rim. It also limits the maximum velocity I can attain because with such a small volume inside the case, I have to reduce the charge to prevent going over pressure.

The ideal velocity for my guns is about 1100 fps so I need to seat shallower. I can do this by sizing the coated bullets to 0.356". With that, I can seat either bullet quite a ways out without hitting the lands and get enough powder in the cases to stay under SAAMI max pressure and get the desired velocity.

Oddly enough, I can shoot these in my Beretta 92FS which has a 0.357" groove diameter and still not get any leading whatsoever. The bullets are relatively soft (straight reclaimed trap and skeet shot) but I think it's the powder coating that prevents any gas cutting of the lead since none of the lead is exposed.

[Lloyd Smale]

well this made me go to the range. I had just loaded some 9s with the 120 rf lee because I wanted to try coated bullets. I had all kinds of failure to go into battery. I went home and grabbed a can of the last batch I loaded with the same bullet and they ran like a top. I figured it must be the coating. I was wrong. I went home and found the new batch had the bullet seated out just a smidge farther. For grins I set the die to the old batch and pushed the bullets down a bit more in the case and they ran like a top. this bullet must need to be seated a bit deaper then most.

[OS OK]

Perhaps, but this is as close to an all around bullet I have…mdi...

I have to agree, it's just I have a different approach for the ogive in the autoloaders…I PC them and size to bore size…no more oversize boolits. I think that's why I haven't had any problems going into battery.
If you oversize and lube you may not get a foolproof OAL without getting shorter…High pressure? Just rework your loads a bit?

OS OK

[6622729]

Perhaps, but this is as close to an all around bullet I have. I use it in 3, 9mms (Ruger LCPs, FMX, and a Tokerev), two .38 Specials and a .357 Magnum. Just because the bullet has a crimp groove does not mean you have to roll crimp into it. Perhaps the ogive is "wrong" (why?) for a semi-auto, but I have seated this bullet to an OAL of 1.125" and it chambers nicely in my 9mms...

If you are powder coating AND getting leading, I'd step back and look at what you are doing. I'd be looking at how hot a load you're trying to run and maybe how soft an alloy you are trying to use. You're awfully short with those rounds too. Since these are for more than 1 gun, I'd probably defer to the case gauge as you're standard and anything that fits the case gauge but doesn't chamber, then I'd be looking at the gun.

[A pause for the COZ]

I have a few 9's and I can tell you when it comes to cast bullets. They all like different things.
Some will feed any type of bullet I try, some are fussy and will only feed a certain profile.
Some will chamber one type and oal and not others.

I have a Star model B that feeds fine but has a tight chamber. My favorite big fatty 147gr pills are a no go.
120 gr Truncated cones feed, chamber, and shoot fine. So thats what it gets. Keep looking you will find one it likes.