Soft lead vs HPs

[ShaneLyall]

Don't get me wrong, HPs have there place, and I do load J-word HPs in my every day carry but these are dead soft 145g lee SWC PC'ed with HF red. The one on the left was hit by another shot which clipped it in half but wow, it is still double the size. The one on the right lost a "pedal" but still is impressive. For reference, the center boolit was pulled from a loaded round (my last one) for the pic.

I also poured some with a hard alloy that didn't even come close to this kind of mushroom even in a 175g tc. Was it the SWC shape of the 145g or the softness of the lead that mushroomed them? These were dug out of the berm today just to see if my PCing was holding up. Incidentally, it did. I think I'm going to mix up some gelatin and see what they look like hitting a soft target.

More to follow...

167000

[Mohawk Daddy]

OK, I'll be the dummy: 40 S&W?

[ShaneLyall]

Sorry, Yes, .40 S&W. I was trying some powder puff loads for IDPA. Those were either 4.5g Universal or 4.0g Bullseye, mixed brass, 1.125 or 1.130 C.O.A.L. I'm not sure which load those were from as I didn't did them out until after I finished shooting for the day. The gun has an 11 pound recoil spring, maybe a little light for these loads, in an otherwise stock M&P Smith & Wesson.

[runfiverun]

it's the softness.

[Outpost75]

Recovering bullets from the berm tells you nothing.

Shooting 100 pounds of bullets in water jugs and comparing with bullets you have recovered from game gives you a fair idea.

SOFT 6-8 BHN flatnosed bullets with meplat 0.6 to 0.7 of bullet diameter will expand reliably at black powder .44-40 velocities.

Harder 10 BHN bullets of similar shape require 1200+ fps on impact to give similar results.

Wheelweight 12-13 BHN bullets require 1300 fps to "rivet" and give some expansion.

Wheelweights used in flatnosed bullets with adequate meplat 0.6 to 0.7 of bullet diameter will mushroom at 1600-1800 fps.

Blackpowder .44-40 load is good benchmark for comparison.

167011

For my hunting bullets in .44-40 and .44 Magnum I use 1:30 alloy from Roto Metals with this bullet, loaded with compressed caseful 24.5 grains of RL7 or 22 grains of 4198 in .44-40 or .44 Magnum, about 1050 from 5-1/2", and 1200 from a 7-1/2" revolver, 1350 fps from 20" carbine barrel, 1420 fps from 24" full-length rifle. Fully adequate deer gun which kills better than a .30-30!

167012

[smoked turkey]

For hunting I am in the 50/50 camp. I did some testing in wet pack (Wet phone books, etc.) with the 3589 boolit from a 35 Whelen. The two alloys "tested" were straight wheel weights and the 50/50 mix (half ww, half soft lead). The softer boolit won hands down for both penetration and expansion. You might conclude that a harder alloy would provide better penetration (think FMJ or solid). It would if the boolit stayed together on impacting the target. What I experienced in my limited test was boolit break up on impact with the wheel weight boolit. This fragmentation resulted in about half the penetration of the softer alloy which stayed together to create a longer wound channel. I have successfully killed several whitetail with just ww metal boolits. So this test might have been flawed in some way due to a bad batch of lead boolits. Until I am able to do more testing, I will continue to believe that the 50/50 mix is superior to the straight ww mix. Just my thoughts and probably worth what it cost you to get em.

[Lloyd Smale]

I guess everyone has there own secret formula. Mine is 2/3 pure 1/3 ww. Straight pure deforms to much in the barrel and is hard to get really good accuracy out of at anything past 800 fps and 5050 ww/pure doesn't open up reliably on game (deer sized) until your up around 1100 fps impact velocity. Even my mix is not an absolutely reliable expander on deer unless your talking a pretty good sized hp cavity. Most small cavity hps an flat nose will usually only bump up to caliber size. Something like the lyman devestators hp cavity is what you want if you want true mushrooms without slamming into a dirt bank or something else harder then a deer. Ive shot this hp alloy up to 1300 fps with decent accuracy. Now I'm not going to tell you its going to outshoot a hard bullet or a jacketed bullet but it will give plenty of accuracy for 50 yard big game shooting.

[Shuz]

Lloyd-- Do you know what the hardness of your 2/3 pb:1/3 ww alloy is?

[mdi]

My secret formula is; one large diameter bullet with large meplate. Add a hefty charge of gunpowder. Combine mixture in a small brass container. Use this mixture to put a hole in a vital organ. Yummm, venison burgers...

[ShaneLyall]

I have to disagree Outpost, it told me my PC was staying with the bullet which is what I was after. The way they spread out when hitting was just something I found interesting and wanted to share. I'm well aware a real HP does expand, mushroom, and so on, in a more controlled fashion. That's why I opened my post with "HPs have there place" and "I use them in my every day carry gun"

I'm going to load up some and shoot them into gelatin just to see what they do. I do think they would work ok for hunting but I'm just not sure they would be reliable enough for me to trust ever time.

There's engineers in every ammo company making $500,000 a year designing HPs, I'm a guy in a basement with a reloader, who do you think knows more about bullet design? LOL!

[ShaneLyall]

Oh almost forgot, Outpost gave the speeds that certain bhn alloys expand (thanks by the way) but I didn't have my chrono with me. I also didn't check BHN other than with a fingernail. Just a guess but these were a soft as it can get. Like I said, I was really just testing powder coating. I figured, if it would coat dead soft lead and hold, it would hang with something harder. Again, a guy in a basement...theory may or may not work...

[fredj338]

Don't get me wrong, HPs have there place, and I do load J-word HPs in my every day carry but these are dead soft 145g lee SWC PC'ed with HF red. The one on the left was hit by another shot which clipped it in half but wow, it is still double the size. The one on the right lost a "pedal" but still is impressive. For reference, the center boolit was pulled from a loaded round (my last one) for the pic.

I also poured some with a hard alloy that didn't even come close to this kind of mushroom even in a 175g tc. Was it the SWC shape of the 145g or the softness of the lead that mushroomed them? These were dug out of the berm today just to see if my PCing was holding up. Incidentally, it did. I think I'm going to mix up some gelatin and see what they look like hitting a soft target.

More to follow...


Test them in something other than packed dirt. JHP are designed for expansion in a semi liquid medium. SO ballistic gel, properly prepared wetpack or even water is better than dirt. You'll find the results quite a bit diff. A dead soft solid will flatten some if you get up around 900fps. Below that, you want a HP of some design. I use 20-1 for vel above 1100fps or so, 25-1 under that. The design of the HP is just as important as the alloy.

[runfiverun]

if you want to test the powder coat a hammer will do the job just fine.
pretty standard test actually.

[Forrest r]

A little interesting reading from 1953, it has the bullet's cut in 1/2 showing the hp size/shape/design. Along with testing them with different alloys and velocities. The article has excellent pictures to go along with their tests. The article was for a 44spl but the alloys/velocities are the same for every caliber 38/40/44/45. They tested 4 different cast hp bullets and used 3 different alloys 8bhn/10bhn/12bhn. Along with testing the different hp bullets/alloys with a velocity range of 600fps/800fps/1000fps/1200fps. What they tested/learned in 1953 still holds water to this day and will give you something to compare your finding to.

http://www.goodrichfamilyassoc.org/44_Special_Articles/44%20spl%20-%20may%201953%20american%20rifleman.pdf

A link to a alloy calculator. It will tell you what the different alloy bhn's are along with you can fill in and make your own custom alloys and it will tell you the bhn of that alloy.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=45784&d=1341560870

Not very scientific but it works, a $7 set of pencils from walmart will allow you to test your different alloys for hardness. Surprisingly enough it works pretty well.

http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t242/forrestr-photo/Pencil_hardness_versus_lead_alloy_hardness2-579x402_zps4e1bbf80.jpg (http://s162.photobucket.com/user/forrestr-photo/media/Pencil_hardness_versus_lead_alloy_hardness2-579x402_zps4e1bbf80.jpg.html)

That's a good looking bullet you powder coated for your 40s&w.
Enjoy yourself, good luck and good testing.

[Lloyd Smale]

7-8 bhn on my cabin tree tester but keep in mind that most lead testers are more for comparing alloys then putting an exact number on them. In my experience if you shooting under a 900 fps your only going to get reliable expansion with pure.
Lloyd-- Do you know what the hardness of your 2/3 pb:1/3 ww alloy is?

[guncheese]

I've got your controlled expansion right here

167161

9-10bhn by pencil test
and the powder coat hangs right on there!

[Lloyd Smale]

your cheating though, your shooting at steal:bigsmyl2: I load pure lead 300s in the 4570 at pop gun levels and shoot steal in the garage and get pretty little pancakes like that.
I've got your controlled expansion right here

167161

9-10bhn by pencil test
and the powder coat hangs right on there!

[44man]

Too much expansion has kicked me in the teeth many times but it depends on what you do and shoot. I just deer hunt and the hardest thing I have faced is getting boolits right.
A HP can be super accurate and I love them but refuse to shoot at deer with them.
In the early years of the .44 mag, 56, etc, I could not hunt deer with a revolver but could shoot varmints in Ohio. I shot all kinds of stuff to see expansion and often said WOW, What would that do to deer. I was wrong and the boolits were better suited to chucks.
Then when I could shoot deer I found too much and too fast expansion was not good. Only place for pure was in a ML.
If I hunted larger then deer I would never use what you fellas look for. A creep in a heavy coat is also going to get you after you empty your gun.
Why do you look for flat boolits?

[Lloyd Smale]

nothing wrong with flat bullets. Ive killed many animals with them and to be honest don't ever remember thinking to myself this outcome would have been better with expansion. I do it mostly out of boredom. To see how it works for lack of a better reason. I agree that cast hps are not what you want for 500 lb plus animals. I watched them fail miserably on bison a couple times. But for something as lightly constructed as a deer they do fine or for a guy that's out culling wild pigs. Bottom line though is 44 man is right a good lfn or swc will do ALOT of killing and id surely pick one over any hp for a serious hunt. We lack the ability to control expansion with varying the thickness of a jacket so its a real fine line we dance trying to get expansion and still have penetration.

[fredj338]

I've got your controlled expansion right here

167161

9-10bhn by pencil test
and the powder coat hangs right on there!
Except that is off a steel plate. which is not showing expansion?? Everything flattens or frags hitting steel.

[noisewaterphd]

My secret formula is; one large diameter bullet with large meplate. Add a hefty charge of gunpowder. Combine mixture in a small brass container. Use this mixture to put a hole in a vital organ. Yummm, venison burgers...

+100

Meplat is the key on big game.

[guncheese]

Everything flattens or frags hitting steel.


well what fun are you? :-P