Newbie needs casting help!!!

[Chris C]

Got a new mold in yesterday. Turned on the PID today and tried to cast some. Very disappointed and since I'm so new at this I have no idea what went wrong. The PID was holding the pot right at 700 degrees. My mold had been in the oven at 450 degrees for an hour. When I started casting, I was getting bullets that would break in half.........they looked like they were made of sand! Got a couple that were "sort of" okay, but nothing to brag about. :groner: What have I done wrong? Mold too hot, lead not hot enough, or visa-versa? I was wearing my favorite socks and my rabbits foot around my neck. Shouldn't have happened. My last casting session with a different mold produced nothing but beautiful and perfect bullets.

[jcren]

If you mean they broke when you opened the mold, you popped the mold too soon. Allow to cool longer or cool down the mold some.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

Mold too hot.

I don't have a thermometer on the mold during pre-heat, I judge by how long it takes for the sprue to freeze. Ideally it should be only 3 to 5 seconds.

[country gent]

More information is needed here Alloy composition ( lead antimony tin), Mould material ( aluminum steel brass), Bullet style shape type? How did the melt appear when up to temp? Is it possible you may have gotten some zinc in your pot? What is the weight of one of these bullets compared to mould designation?Have you used this alloy before with good results? If so is what is in the pot the same batch or diffrent blending?

[Chris C]

Lyman #2. BH 15, depending on who checks it. Brand new aluminum mold. Have not added any zinc to the pot. Mold, designed to cast a 270 bullet..........but actually weighed 267.5 gr. Last time I cast bullets they were from a 170 gr mold..........but all were perfect from first to last cast.

[silverjay]

The larger boolit will hold more heat in the mold than the 170's and take longer to cool. You can let it cool longer before opening or drop the pot temp some.

[Chris C]

What would the recommended pot temp be for a bullet of that weight? I was under the impression it should be about 700/750 degrees.

[Seeker]

You opened the too hot mold too soon.I haven't fallen for the hot plate or mold in the oven to preheat yet. I lay my mold on top of the pot when I turn it on. When the lead gets up to 650° I start pouring and the mold usually starts dropping good boolits by the 3rd pour. Nice shiny boolits. If they start getting frosty looking, I hold the mold in front of the fan for 1/2 a minute or so and continue.

[Chris C]

Do you maintain 650? I've got a PID and can hold the temp right where I choose. Being a newbie I'm dependent on you more experienced folks for guidance and have been told 700/750 is where I should be.

[Seeker]

I don't have a PID. I have figured out where to set my temp. control by trial and error. I ladle pour from a small 4# Lee pot and I drop my sprues back in as I cut them. I also use minnie muffin ingots that I drop in when the temp gets up towards 675°, then the temp drops back to 650°. I'm not sure if this is tru temp as I only use a Lyman thermometer but it's the temp that casts good for me. Some of my molds cast better at hotter temps. It's a learning curve that you will look back on and smile at a few months from now. Enjoy it, I'm betting that I'm not the only one that would like to back up time and start all over again.

[Yodogsandman]

I set my PID to 725* and return the sprues to the pot each time. My boolits will break in half if I don't allow the mold to cool about 10 seconds after cutting the sprue. Thin boolits need to set for a little bit to prevent bending or breaking from the mold.

[Chris C]

What do you mean by "thin" bullets?

[Teddy (punchie)]

Repeating some what, But anyway. Not sure what to say about temperature degree in numbers, but your casting a little too hot. Not letting enough time between end of pour to opening mold. Frosty (maybe your sand look) color is telling us that it is too hot. Your alloy will change with temperature, they way it looks. After you get a handle on casting you'll know when its too hot and too cold without looking at temperature. Take your time. Take a break from casting and start again later or a different day. Had a AL mold that drove me nuts and still like the Steel Mold better just I have an easier, better fill for them over AL.

[silverjay]

I run a 45 cal 230 grain mold at 670 initially on the PID and then drop to 655 when the mold settles in. Changes a little summer to winter as well.

[Chris C]

I've set my PID for 650. I'll try again tomorrow when I'm not so frustrated.

[toallmy]

Yes some times your just better off relaxing and start off fresh later , hopefully next time will be smother , but try to figure out why . Then you got it .

[Chris C]

I've only cast about 500 bullets in my life..................so "figuring out why" is something foreign to me. It's one of those "I don't know what I don't know" kind of things.

[paraord]

How solid was your sprue? Sounds like everything was too hot. But I'm a novice myself. I just leave my mould on too of the pot for a bit, then cast a handful until my mould heats up and I have gotten Great results.

[country gent]

Long bullets may need more heat and also more time to cool I cast 550 grn 45s ( these are 1.43" long) My 430 grn 40s about the same. These long bullets need to be filled fast and the smaller the caliber the more important this becomes. Also a pressure type pour may help define grain structures and make a more consistant bullet. You want to get the lead in while its all molten pour a large sprue and allow to cool when the sprue frosts ( watch and you will see it change in color and get a look like grass with frost over it move accross it) give a 5 to 10 count and cut sprue then open gently. If needed light taps on the hinge bolt help vibrate the blocks free of the bullet. If the bullet dosnt drop free then a few more light taps on the hinge pin to release it. On the small caliber long bullets dont drop them on other bullets either. Drop your oven to 300*-350* and start out there casting at a brisk pace and when youve been running good bullets for awhile check mould blocks temp, you then know where this mould wants to run at.

[runfiverun]

the alloy temp is okay.

your molds temp is too high.
go back and check some of those broken boolits I bet they are just like normal now.
but the extra heat in the mold lets the alloy just sit there without solidifying and everything frosts over.
[you counted the time and opened the mold]
everything wasn't solidified enough and you tore the drive bands to bits.

cool the mold off about 40-50* and try again.

[Chris C]

Sprue was solid............well, a couple looked like the bullets that looked like sand when they broke. And nope, they still look very granular.

country gent, you had me confused for a second. You meant to drop the mold temp to 300/350 degrees. I have no way to check the actual temp of the mold.

[Yodogsandman]

What do you mean by "thin" bullets?
Should have said "long" boolits. The boolit needs to fully solidify while in the mold. By opening the mold too early they're being pulled apart.

The granular surface at the break is the lead alloy crystals, as they are forming, being pulled apart prior to becoming a solid.

[toallmy]

I'm only in for a year or so , so take it for what it's worth . I have good luck with 675 - 725 temperature , but the mold temp has a huge impact on the casting . A hour at 450 in a oven seams very excessive , in a perfect pore the sprue freeze is on a 4 count and at 7-8 I cut then drop the sprue back in the pot before I open the mold I am usually at a 12 count before opening the mold . Aluminum likes to be ran faster , more so than hotter . Give it a try today with the mold a little cooler you will probably be ticked . Good luck

[Sasquatch-1]

You never mentioned what bullet you are casting. Also, where did you get your lead? Could it be contaminated? I agree it sounds like you are dropping your bullet to soon. Wait for the spruce to frost over and wait another second or so.

[William Yanda]

Assuming an aluminum mold, NOE recommends several heating/cooling cycles for break in. As Lee suggests, a damp rag or sponge can be used to cool a mold faster. Takes a lot of calories to change liquid water to gas. A short touch can speed up your boolit making pace. Don't give up. You will find success.
Bill

[Chris C]

Thanks, Yodogsandman, you have me scratchin' my head there.

Sasquatch-1, it's a 38-270C from Accurate. (my own design) It's a 270 gr bullet for my .38-55, 1885 C. Sharps Highwall.

Bill, I used Al's "3 or 4 cycles of 450 degrees in the oven and let it air cool, before casting with it the first time." That's why I figured if I'd just heat it to 450 to start casting it would work better. It's what I've done with other molds and has worked perfectly. My 170 gr, Signature Keith .357 bullet was treated that way and when I started casting I was able to keep all the bullets from the first to the last on my first casting session. this bullet is 100 gr heavier, but as a newbie, I assumed things would work out the same.

[robg]

Try using 2molds alternatively gives each mold time to cool before you cut the sprues and open the mold.you more boolits as a bonus as well.

[500MAG]

I do heat my mold up before casting but not too much. I cast a few sets of throw backs until the mold gets just right. When the mold starts getting too hot, I alternate molds and cast two different boolits. While I'm casting with one mold, I place the other on an aluminum plate to remove a little heat. When I get the rhythm going I can really crank them out.

[Yodogsandman]

I pre heat molds on a solid surface hot plate, covered with a #10 can to about 375*, air temp only as measured with a thermometer through the top of the can.

I just had the same problem while heat treating NOE 360-310 FN (35 Thumper) boolits, too. I had run the temp too high, up to just at the slump temperature and quenched in ice cold water. Some broke in half while moving them from the oven to the water, maybe from contacting each other during the dump.

[jcren]

The sandy look is due to the lead still being in the "plastic" state. Poke at the ingots in your pot when you first start to see melt and you will see the same grain where they break. Cool down a little, mold or melt or both, and slow down a little. I have a mold that will do this some, I just leave the mold open for several seconds after dropping boolits when I see this. Cools the cavities and speeds setting of the next boolits.

[runfiverun]

that overly grainular alloy is a clear symptom of too much heat.
throw the boolit material back in the pot and leave your heat setting alone on it for now.

re-heat the mold but turn things down.
400-f is plenty for the mold to start.
you can adjust the molds temp with your cadence, using the alloy from the 700-f* pot.

I know exactly what you done because I have done it too, several times, and i'll probably do it again.

[44man]

I set my pot at 750 on the dial. I have a thermometer but don't use it unless I am smelting or making alloys. I heat molds in the little furnace to 500° and every boolit from first to last is perfect from 30-30 to 564 gr BPCR boolits.
Cadence is where it is, never what heat you use. You are just in a hurry to get numbers. 10 perfect is better then 1000 scrubs.
Experience to see what you get will come along. I can't write it for you.
I find no difference with steel or aluminum and even use one of each at the same time, been up to 3 molds at one time. Brass needs to be hotter. I have hundreds of molds and not a single thing on paper because it is just FEEL and vision as you cast. It will come to you so you can relax. You are just in too much of a hurry. Try 3, 2 cavity molds at a time once! Even then I don't need to hurry.

[Chris C]

Okay. I've just cast bullets for the past two hours. Didn't start seeing improvements until I got back up to the 750 degree range. Still haven't cast a bullet I'd put in a case to load! I'm up to 760 degrees and still can't get defined edges on my lube grooves. Gonna set it aside for today. The bullets seem solid and quit displaying that sandy look as soon as I let the mold cool off a little and got the heat of the lead up. But I'd think at 760 degrees, I'd get a defined edge on my crimp and lube grooves. Frustrating. Turned everything off and going to go to other projects.

[toallmy]

Are you getting good base fill out at 700 , or are the bases rounded like the bands . Did you have to get the temp up to 760 to get good base fill out . Somethings fishy if good base but bad bands .

[44man]

Remember too hot can ruin bands too. Once you get frost, you can go too far and not fill the boolit.
I don't like frost, just perfect boolits.

[Chris C]

I think yes, I was getting good base fill..........and only a very little frosting on one side of the bullets. Can't tell you because they all went back in the pot................all two hours worth!

[Yodogsandman]

You're running your mold too hot. Lyman #2 alloy should cast like a dream at 725*F with a mold somewhere around 375* to 400*F, depending on your cadence.

[country gent]

One thing you might try doing is omitting the molds pre heat and start casting at a brisc cadence with the 700*-750* alloy Watch the bullets closely but dont break the cadence. When bullets start looking good measure temp of mould to see where it wants to run at. Some moulds need a few sessions to break them in and get good bullets. Did you clean this mould good with solvent or dishsoap and water scrupping with a toothbrush? Some machining coolants affect casting. You might look at the grooves under magnification to see it the radious is in the mould a chipped or worn cutter can cause this.

[Chris C]

Okay, here goes. Today, when I turned on the PID to start heating the lead, I set the mold on the edge of the pot as had been recommended. I started casting about 45 minutes after I turned on the PID. The mold did not go in the oven this time. Cast for two hours and didn't get one good keeper. Started at 650 degrees like many suggested. Slowly worked my way up to 760 degrees...........with bullets consistently getting better, but never reaching satisfactory. I've got two other molds and it must have been beginners luck, but I've never had a bit of trouble getting wonderful results. Then there's this one! Whew, what a disappointment. Same lead, no change.

[RogerDat]

For 303 boolits of around that weight I cast with lead at ~710 and pre-heat the mold on a hot plate to less than the temps you are heating your mold. The mythical "perfect" mold temp coming off the hot plate is one where the sprue frosting up in the same amount of time it does when I'm casting and everything is flowing smoothly, that is the point I am trying to pre-heat to. I mark that spot on my hot plate knob, problem is different molds seem to need a slightly different temperature.

[Mike W1]

My thought is mold and lead both are too hot. Realizing every mold is different I've been doing a bit of temperature measurements lately, mostly to confirm in my own mind what experience has taught me. And I might add some fine tips I've gleaned off this forum helped a lot!

The other day with a Lee DC 452 mold drilled for a temperature probe. Hot plate PID controlled at 380° F, Pot at 705° F.
Put mold on hot plate and when pot reached 705° the mold was at 311° in right at 20 minutes. First bullets fine and in short order the sprues were cutting too easily and mold was at 400°. Kicked on my cooling fan box and got the mold temp down to around 350° and maintained that pace. The sprue cuts were smooth as glass at that temperature.

With an iron mold I've cast good bullets with lead as low as 645°. Another "identical" mold needs at least 690°. Not actually sure why I've got the pot set at 705° right now but was probably when I was fooling with the Lee and thought I needed more heat. AL seems to be a little touchier than iron for me. I don't think I've ever cast hotter than 710-715° since I acquired a thermometer and later with the PID's. Don't cast rifle bullets any more but suspect there'd be a markedly different technique controlling temperature than with fat little 45's. Maybe as different as it is between iron and aluminum molds.

[Chris C]

Thanks, Mike. I may wait a couple of days before I try again..............even though I'm anxious to see how this bullet shoots. I've other projects that will consume my mind for a while and give me a break. I'm pretty frustrated at this point. Never had this problem with either of the other two molds I've cast with.

[toallmy]

Is it possible to add a touch of tin to the alloy . As some molds are more picky about fill out .

[Sasquatch-1]

+1 on the tin. Tin can be acquired in the form of pewter or solder. Doesn't take a lot to help a mix.

With the aluminum mold, start with a dead cold mold and see what happens. The first couple of drops may not be any good but you should see improvement as the mold heats up.

[44man]

Another thought to consider. TL boolit molds can get a hot spot where lead first touches. I never get that with normal boolits but have had it happen with TL chicken scratch grooves.
I never touch that dial and change my pace or how I pour only. Your temps are held in your hand.
But a PID is great to prevent cycles in the pot. I just can't afford one.
I ruined the budget this year, Needed gutters, washer and dryer failed, new well pump and all parts, new mower, Replaced my own timing belt and water pump to save $1000 and it didn't end there but I changed my own well pump too. Had to dig up a broken fitting in the water line to the house. This happy home owner stuff puts a kink in our fun stuff.

[Chris C]

Okay, once again I have to expose my ignorance. What is a TL mold?

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

Okay, once again I have to expose my ignorance. What is a TL mold?
TL stands for Tumble Lube, see photo below.

http://media.midwayusa.com/productimages/880x660/Primary/732/732706.jpg
Lee 6-Cavity Bullet Mold TL452-230-TC 45 ACP, 45 Auto Rim, 45 Colt (Long Colt) (452 Diameter) 230 Grain Tumble Lube Truncated Cone

[warf73]

He is casting a standard lube groove design boolit.
167016 This is the boolit he is casting, nice looking design Chris C

I'll add something that might or might not help. Set your mold on top of the pot (like you did before). Set the PID at 725*(keep it there don't chase temps) once the pot is up to temp start casting. It shouldn't take but 10 ~ 15 casts to get the mold up to proper temp. Make big spur pools till you start getting good boolits (during the first 10~15 casts) Once the boolits look good go back to a normal pool (smaller) and cast away.

IF you don't get good boolits in 20 casts or see ZERO improvements on the boolits dropping out STOP and walk away some days it’s not going to happen. It's better to walk away and try it again another day.

I can't explain it but sometimes it works like that. I've changed molds (cold mold from the shelf) and got good boolits in less than 30 castings with a cold mold.

Keep at it you will get there.

[OS OK]

This is an interesting thread to follow…I once had drive bands giving me some trouble when the base would be clean and crisp…so I tried to pressure fill, still no success.
Later I read about how important the air vents/lines in the face of the mold are…oh boy, I had been smoking my mold with a paint stir stick, does a great job…but…smoking is not needed when you have a mold that is properly cleaned, de-burred and without any contamination. And, sometimes you have to take a sharp scratch all and deepen those vent lines…ever so slightly though!
Heck…I had soot imbedded in the face of the mold where the air vents were…no venting in the bands area…I cleaned that mold face and interior and started at again…no more freaking problems!

Hang in there Chris…you'll figure it out…OS OK

Problems like this are good to have ever decade or so…you learn things that would have taken a lifetime of casting in a few short sessions.

[jcren]

If you post your location, there may be a member nearby that wouldn't mind helping troubleshoot.

[1989toddm]

You opened the too hot mold too soon.I haven't fallen for the hot plate or mold in the oven to preheat yet. I lay my mold on top of the pot when I turn it on. When the lead gets up to 650° I start pouring and the mold usually starts dropping good boolits by the 3rd pour. Nice shiny boolits. If they start getting frosty looking, I hold the mold in front of the fan for 1/2 a minute or so and continue.

This!! Works for me too! Every mold is different but this is a cheap simple way to cast.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Chris C]

Thanks for the tips. Haven't been able to pull up the site since my post yesterday morning. Just now getting back.

Have a family tragedy that will keep me out of town and away from the computer for as much as a month. I'll try to get back to casting and loading when I get back. Thanks for all the tips and suggestions. I'm keepin' them all, for sure.

[OS OK]

Thanks for the tips. Haven't been able to pull up the site since my post yesterday morning. Just now getting back.

Have a family tragedy that will keep me out of town and away from the computer for as much as a month. I'll try to get back to casting and loading when I get back. Thanks for all the tips and suggestions. I'm keepin' them all, for sure.

"Oh Boy…well, stand firm, be of good nature…sorry most for the tragedy!…whew…hang in there Bud!"

charlie

[44man]

Nothing more painful to hear. More prayers from all here headed your way.

[Chris C]

Thanks guys.