What the heck is this thing?

[BPJONES]

In an earlier thread I eluded to a "surprise" I had coming as I didn't know much about it. Well I received it and I still don't know what the heck I have. I don't know if it is a made up affair, if it's old or if it's more recent and made to deceive. The barrel is quite thick and is 35" long. It has sights yet it is a smooth bore and from what I can gather it is around a 28 gauge. There is no maker's name on the barrel. On the top you can see the word "London" stamped into it. I could not find any proof marks other than at the end of the breech there is a small oval and it sort of looks like a faint crown of some sort with the letter "P" under it. The front and rear sight are both dovetailed and it appears as though there are faint lines that looks like there might be another dovetail for another rear sight with a filler in it from when the barrel was made. Surprisingly, the breech plug came out. There was dry rust in the threads so it hasn't been out in awhile. This barrel does look old and it has been shot quite a bit. But onto the stock. The stock is quite a low grade of wood (that has a couple of cracks). In fact, I don't think it is even walnut. On the right side I can make out a narrow rectangle where something has been on the stock that had words. First word I can't make out. Second word is quite short and I can only make out the letter "Y" at the end. I almost think it says toy? The last 2 words I can make out and they say trading rifle. On the right side of the stock it looks like maybe a small pewter bird stuck on the side. I thought maybe it is a stock from something else but the barrel fits it like it was made to go in it. The back action lock says Smith Buffalo on it. No marks on the inside of the lock. In a couple of areas on the inside of the lock there is blue case coloring left which seems a bit out of place as it's fairly bright blue. Anyhow, anybody have any clue as to what this is? Is it a made up job, is it fairly modern made to look old or is it old? The barrel sure isn't very young in my opinion. I'm going to repair the cracks and hang it on the wall but I'm just wondering what I really have. Below are some pics.



http://i1087.photobucket.com/albums/j470/picadilly1/smith%20buffalo/smith%20b%20001_zpsc0bmzxdr.jpg (http://s1087.photobucket.com/user/picadilly1/media/smith%20buffalo/smith%20b%20001_zpsc0bmzxdr.jpg.html)
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http://i1087.photobucket.com/albums/j470/picadilly1/smith%20buffalo/smith%20b%20008_zpsxflxmtvz.jpg (http://s1087.photobucket.com/user/picadilly1/media/smith%20buffalo/smith%20b%20008_zpsxflxmtvz.jpg.html)http://i1087.photobucket.com/albums/j470/picadilly1/smith%20buffalo/smith%20b%20014_zpsrkupi5dy.jpg (http://s1087.photobucket.com/user/picadilly1/media/smith%20buffalo/smith%20b%20014_zpsrkupi5dy.jpg.html)

[Buckshot Bill]

Metal all looks old maybe restocked at some point? Most likely bored out to smoothbore too.

[swathdiver]

CVA parts?

[Squeeze]

probably made around the same time as those tiles :bigsmyl2:

[BPJONES]

probably made around the same time as those tiles :bigsmyl2:

Yeah, the tiles are from 1964. It is a coffee table that was made by a cabinet maker after he cut 3 of his fingers off. He made this as a project while receiving therapy.

[w5pv]

I hope it wasn't your fingers that got cut off.

[Sharpsman]

It's a BOAT ANCHOR!!

[Der Gebirgsjager]

Wish you had a photo of the entire rifle. It will look great hanging on the wall.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Yeah, the tiles are from 1964. It is a coffee table that was made by a cabinet maker after he cut 3 of his fingers off. He made this as a project while receiving therapy.

Physical, I trust? That much have been quite a cabinet.

Can you trace ELG, on two lines, in that oval mark? It sounds very much like the proofmark of Liège in Belgium. I'm inclined to think this is a composite assembled by someone. Even before reproductions came in, the Belgians (and foreign importers) weren't above engraving just about any name on a firearm, and often did it to individual requests, honest or otherwise. But I can't see why the Buffalo and London names would be on the same gun.

It does look like it saw a lot of use with black powder. The location of the corrosion under the rear of the barrel suggests that it came from fouling, not just rainwater.

[bedbugbilly]

It would help if you could post some photos of the side views of the stock - both sides as well as the furniture - i.e. butt plate, trigger guard, etc. It appears that it has a poured nose cap - not uncommon on half-stocks of the mid to late 1800's. The lock looks like a typical back action that was manufactured during that time frame - usually purchased by the gunmaker who stocked the parts. The barrel may be a "re-cylced" barrel - i.e. used on an earlier rifle and the the parts salvaged to use in building this particular long gun. I have a rifle in my collection that came off of an Indian Reservation in Northern Michigan and the barrel was on two different guns previous to being used for the gun I own - evident by barrel staples and tenons cut on the under side.

You said you removed the breech plug - were the threads coarse or fine pitch? Many older barrels - 1700's to say mid 1800's utilized a coarse pitch thread. Later on, finer pitch threads were often used. This barrel may be original to the gun or it may not - it may have been a rifle and then the owner had it bored out to use as a shotgun - not uncommon at all. I sold an original last year that was a half-stock - probably very similar to yours only it had a front action lock. It started out as a rifle - had a octagon barrel about 1" across the flats that was bored out to a smoothbore to use as a shot gun. It was found in a barn many years ago in the hayloft, laying on top of a cross beam in Lenawee County, MI.

One has to remember that while there were certainly cartridge guns available in the later 1800's, muzzle loaders such as what yours appears to be, were utilized up in to the early 1900's. Many were bored out to use as shotguns to provide meat for the table on the farms once areas became settled. Bannerman's bored out and chopped up many Civil War muskets and marketed them just for these purposes.

Judging from your photos, your gun is not made up of "new" parts nor "faked" to look old. The lock is a typical back action lock of the time period. It is very similar to one that was on a "shotgun" I owned - made in the late 1800's - that utilized a chopped down smooth bore barrel that was once on a a 1842 model Springfield. I'd like to see more photos of the stock and furniture as they may hold more clues but I think you have a nice little piece of history from the late 1800s.

[BPJONES]

Below are more pics. The first pic shows the little oval on the barrel. I have other guns with the Belgian ELG marking but this isn't that. If you blow it up you can faintly make out the letter P at the bottom. In this link, http://www.birminghamgunmuseum.com/media/The_Crossed_Sceptres_Mark.pdf , it looks like the mark on page 7, figure 6, the top mark. The breech plug is coarse threads. Also, I'm not sure what is holding the trigger guard in place as there are no screws.
Another thing I just thought of is that little bird on the left side of the stock. If the stock is original to the barrel, could it be possible that it always was a smoothbore? I know being bored out sure seems likely considering it has sights, but kind of strange there would be a bird on the stock. Unless it was an add on at some point. Funny how these old firearms can end up being so mysterious.
http://i1087.photobucket.com/albums/j470/picadilly1/smith%20buffalo/sb3_zpsbxbsoqma.jpg (http://s1087.photobucket.com/user/picadilly1/media/smith%20buffalo/sb3_zpsbxbsoqma.jpg.html)
http://i1087.photobucket.com/albums/j470/picadilly1/smith%20buffalo/sb1_zpshsxybjcv.jpg (http://s1087.photobucket.com/user/picadilly1/media/smith%20buffalo/sb1_zpshsxybjcv.jpg.html)http://i1087.photobucket.com/albums/j470/picadilly1/smith%20buffalo/sb6_zpsbmifrtgr.jpg (http://s1087.photobucket.com/user/picadilly1/media/smith%20buffalo/sb6_zpsbmifrtgr.jpg.html)
http://i1087.photobucket.com/albums/j470/picadilly1/smith%20buffalo/smith%20b%20009_zpsp9kkjxoq.jpg (http://s1087.photobucket.com/user/picadilly1/media/smith%20buffalo/smith%20b%20009_zpsp9kkjxoq.jpg.html)http://i1087.photobucket.com/albums/j470/picadilly1/smith%20buffalo/smith%20b%20013_zpsyaivx6bj.jpg (http://s1087.photobucket.com/user/picadilly1/media/smith%20buffalo/smith%20b%20013_zpsyaivx6bj.jpg.html)
http://i1087.photobucket.com/albums/j470/picadilly1/smith%20buffalo/smith%20b%20012_zps9xsxwen3.jpg (http://s1087.photobucket.com/user/picadilly1/media/smith%20buffalo/smith%20b%20012_zps9xsxwen3.jpg.html)

[Buckshot Bill]

Stock looks like walnut with some muddy lacquer on it concealing some pretty nice looking grain.

[BPJONES]

Yeah, I think somebody applied some crappy paint like stain to it at some point when a previous crack had been repaired. I'll strip it down, repair the cracks and refinish. As mentioned, I'm not sure yet what is holding the trigger guard in place. Can't see any screws running down from the top anywhere and there are none on the bottom.

[FrontierMuzzleloading]

looks like a pretty clean rifle overall. I'd clean it up a bit and proudly hang it on the wall.

[BPJONES]

I just had a closer look at the oval marking with a stronger magnifying glass. It is indeed a stylized "C" with the letter "P" with a small crown above which is I believe a London view mark, which I guess fits in with the "London" on the barrel.
Yep, it will go on the cabin wall as there is one spot in the bore where the pitting looks fairly deep. The lock works great though.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

Many of these vintage guns have a trigger guard that has a screw on top of the front end of the bow. You start the screw into the hole and turn the entire guard around and around until it's flush and properly aligned with the stock. Then it is secured at the rear of the guard by a visible screw. But in your case, near as I can see from the photos, there is no visible screw at the rear so it must be secured in some other manner at the rear. Some pushing forward, backward or pulling outward might cause the rear to release. Once the rear of the guard releases then you should be able to unscrew the entire guard around and around counter-clockwise. Great project.

[BPJONES]

Looking carefully, I noticed a dimple in the stock above the rear of the trigger guard. I picked away the finish and there is a small pin going through the stock holding the rear of the guard in place. I haven't been able to get the pin out yet but probably once it's removed the front of the guard will indeed likely screw off.

[OverMax]

Kind'a looks like a old David Pedersoli to me.

[BPJONES]

Kind'a looks like a old David Pedersoli to me.

There would be Italian proof marks and likely the Pedersoli name on it. There is neither.
I am convinced the barrel is from England. I do think the stock is on the older side as the wood is fairly brittle/dry if that is an indicator.

[curator]

BPJones:

Your smooth-rifle looks very much like rifles made by J.O. Robson, gunsmith in Buffalo, NY in the period 1840-1880. I have almost the exact same gun as yours except mine is rifled .41 caliber. Robson used barrels and locks that he purchased from other makers. Mine is marked "Hitchcock & Muzzy" on the underside of the barrel. I have seen both "London" and "Remington" barrels on Robson made rifles. Robson did not always mark his name on his very early and plain rifles since some of these were marketed by dry-goods dealers. The "architecture" of your stock is exactly like mine and several other Robson rifles I have inspected. Yours has had some obvious repairs, and may have been bored smooth to get some more use from a rifle that had been neglected. The brass plate on the underside of the forearm was added to repair damage to the very thin wood where the ramrod hole was bored. A pretty common period repair. Robson's rifle stocks seem to mostly be plain-grain walnut with a thick coating of reddish varnish finish.

[KCSO]

Old parts restocked into a shooter some time, probably 50-60 by the looks of it. It is hard to tell without seeing the gun entire and looking at the inlets and such for modern tool marks. This was quite common and I have done several FAMLY guns that had the stock rotted away so the folks could hang them on the wall again or even shoot them.

[BPJONES]

Thanks Curator. You explanation sheds a lot of light and makes sense as to just what this is. If only they could tell their stories. Once I repair the cracks it will look good up on the wall. I could always "embellish" it's past with "tales of lore", LOL.

[BPJONES]

I took a few pics of the insides. I would say the stock has been with the gun for a long time, pretty sure more than 50-60 years. This gun came from an estate with a couple of other old muzzleloaders. Supposedly they had been in storage for almost 20 years. As you can see I have some repairing to do. Probably cracked from someone not knowing how to remove the barrel.
http://i1087.photobucket.com/albums/j470/picadilly1/smith%20buffalo/smith%20b%20011_zpsinxvl2wa.jpg (http://s1087.photobucket.com/user/picadilly1/media/smith%20buffalo/smith%20b%20011_zpsinxvl2wa.jpg.html)http://i1087.photobucket.com/albums/j470/picadilly1/smith%20buffalo/smith%20buffalo%20pics%20005_zps86ve18vn.jpg (http://s1087.photobucket.com/user/picadilly1/media/smith%20buffalo/smith%20buffalo%20pics%20005_zps86ve18vn.jpg.html)

http://i1087.photobucket.com/albums/j470/picadilly1/smith%20buffalo/smith%20buffalo%20pics%20008_zpsvua1cx69.jpg (http://s1087.photobucket.com/user/picadilly1/media/smith%20buffalo/smith%20buffalo%20pics%20008_zpsvua1cx69.jpg.html)

[KCSO]

Yes that is dry rot in the breech probably from mercuric caps. The tool mark I can see look like hand work soi would guess that the stock was just refinished. The smooth bore part is a little strange as the stock shape is more Ohio Squirrel rifle style and a 36-40 calibre rifled bore would be more common but it could have been bored smooth just to make it a usefull farm gun.

I would say this is a late muzzleloading era piece from one of the M/L FACTORIES rather than a one off hand made piece. I would like to hear Waksupi chime in on this too.

[FrontierMuzzleloading]

I'd squeeze as much glue or epoxy into that crack on the inside just to keep her together. I really like the rifle. Who, where and when it was made is unknown, but it certainly is old and very good looking muzzy.

[StrawHat]

The trigger guard is pinned to the stock. The picture with the lock mortise and the large crack in the stock shows what may be the forward pin between the bolt hole and the large crack, it appears to be in a smaller crack.

The brass on the bottom is as Curator pointed out, a repair to the ramrod channel either from damage during use or a repair made when the drill bit wandered when the stock was being built.

Many rifles were built as smoothbores and there are several articles about "smooth rifles". They were less $$ than rifled barrel and about as accurate at normal hunting ranges. They were not intended to be used as fowling pieces.

Kevin

[BPJONES]

Thanks for all the info guys.
Kevin, I believe you are correct in that there is a pin going through the stock to hold the front of the trigger guard on, same as the rear.
It turned out to be a much more interesting rifle than I had figured.

[bedbugbilly]

Take a close look - I can't see it in the photos but I would imagine the trigger guard is pinned both front and back - a very common way of doing it. The trigger itself may be pinned. Many single triggers were pinned - some with and some without a trigger plate. The stock appears to have been refinished at some point. The gun has good lines and is definitely not a "production rifle" as some may think. Unfortunately, many gunsmiths did not mark their pieces. Components were purchased and rifles built. Too often, people assume the name on the lock is the maker and it is not - it is the maker of the lock. If that were not true, Goulcher would have made a lot of different types and styles of rifles.

In looking at your photos - I don't believe that stock is walnut. It is more likely either maple or cherry as I don't detect any open grain as walnut would have.

Unless you find a rifle that closely matches it that is identified - such as curator mentions - it will be very hard to identify the maker. I have seen three rifles by the same maker - all half stocks - laid side by side - all identified - and eaten had minor differences. Different locks, different barrels but the furniture was almost identical as were stock profiles and species. As curator points out - the inlay on the forearm is to cover/repair where the ramrod hole either wore through or there was a problem when the rifle was made so the maker repaired it by putting the inlay in. That area gets a lot of wear over time as your had supports the forearm. I have run it to this on rifles that I have built in the past as well, especially when there is a little run out when boring a ramrod hole with one of my 4 foot ramrod drills on a full stock.

It is a good representation of just one of the many thousands of half stock rifles produced by gunsmiths for use in the mid to late 1800's - many of which were carried by families as they movement from the east to the west took place. While it has good lines, it is not extremely "fancy" and was made as a "utility" firearm to be used to put meat on the table and keep critters away from crops and livestock.

[BPJONES]

Yep, it is definitely a utilitarian gun meant to put food on the table. Over the years, one has to wonder how many mouths it fed. It had a crack repaired at some point and that is when it likely had the refinish done. If it had the original finish I would just repair the cracks and try to leave the finish alone. But, as it is, I will strip the ugly finish off when I repair the cracks.

[BPJONES]

Well, I stripped the finish off the stock today. I can't believe what a nice piece of wood was lurking beneath that crappy refinish. It has tiger striping the full length. I was able to save enough of the original finish beneath so all it will require after repairing the cracks are a couple of coats of oil. That way it will retain a lot of its original charm/character and match the rest of the gun. I will post pics when it is finished.

[jimb16]

166749

This is an Ohio built rifle made by R Haskell. Its a family heirloom. .36 cal. and it still goes out to the squirrel woods, just not very often. BTW, the barrel is a Remington.

[BPJONES]

I mentioned in my first post that there were 4 words on the right side of the stock. The last 2 words were trading rifle. I could not make out the first word and could only make out the last letter of the second word which was a "Y". Being in Canada, it never dawned on me what the first 2 words were but a fellow told me today that he's quite sure the words are Hudson Bay Trading Rifle.

[BPJONES]

Well, I repaired the cracks and stripped the stock. I did no sanding at all as I wanted to remove the ugly brown finish but leave the wood as is. I believe what you see now is the original finish except for the tung oil I put on. The gun is functional as it is but I think it deserves a well earned "rest".http://i1087.photobucket.com/albums/j470/picadilly1/smith%20buffalo/guns%20017_zps46zfmq9z.jpg (http://s1087.photobucket.com/user/picadilly1/media/smith%20buffalo/guns%20017_zps46zfmq9z.jpg.html)http://i1087.photobucket.com/albums/j470/picadilly1/smith%20buffalo/guns%20013_zpsdjffztym.jpg (http://s1087.photobucket.com/user/picadilly1/media/smith%20buffalo/guns%20013_zpsdjffztym.jpg.html)

[FrontierMuzzleloading]

holy mother! That sure in hell doesnt look like the same rifle, thats for sure. What a shame about the stock, but it is what it is. It will make one hell of a wall hanger.

[StrawHat]

It looks great, you did a good job cleaning it. Did you repair the cracks?

Kevin

[BPJONES]

Yes, the cracks were repaired and I reinforced the inside of the barrel channel.

[StrawHat]

28 gauge, roughly 55 caliber, so a 54 caliber ball and a stiff patch might make a good load. Or a smaller ball and thicker patch. Just a thought.

Kevin

[BPJONES]

28 gauge, roughly 55 caliber, so a 54 caliber ball and a stiff patch might make a good load. Or a smaller ball and thicker patch. Just a thought.

Kevin

I did a more accurate check yesterday. It is 58 caliber or basically 24 gauge.

[jimb16]

Very pretty rifle! Nice job!

[Earlwb]

I would agree, it turned out nice. The stock repair worked well. Congratulations on a fine job.