Ruger 77/357 accuracy problem

[Travelor]

I had posted this on another thread but thought I would start it as a new thread to see if I can get some help with my "problem" child. I really can use any help or suggestions from fellow 77/357 shooters.

Need some help guys and gals.

I have a new Ruger 77/357 (probably shot now 200 times) that is shooting about 3+inches at 50 yards. Load I am using is the NOE 360-180-FN GC sized .358" (checked diameter with mike), seated to the crimp groove, cast with 3:1 lead to linotype, and using 14.5 grains of Lil' Gun. Bullets are weighed and culled unless +/- .5 grains. Lube is some generic a purple'ish soft lube in red foil wrap marked Alox on box I got years ago. They are loaded singly as to long for magazine.

I have put the gun in a Boyd's stock and am using a Weaver T-36 scope with a VERY solid cast Iron Sinclair rest with a form fitting sand bag and also a form fitting rear leather bag. Just ordered a Volquartsen trigger "kit" for it - Trigger kit now in gun.

What can I do differently to get it to shoot better?

An interesting observation is that the same load shoots just as poorly or worse in my Martini Cadet with a Douglas Air Gauged barrel with a 1:16 twist 24" long and a Lyman SuperSpot 25 power scope. I have loaded for many years and have never had a problem with my reloads until now......................


Since this post I have slugged the barrel and it is .3575". I have bore scoped it and the barrel is smooth and has no lead in it. Yesterday I shot it again and still same results. I did shoot factory wadcutter 38 Special target loads into 1" at 50 yards.

[44man]

Have you tried a different powder? 296 maybe?
You still might be too soft too. Might be slumping the boolit. I have recovered boolits with smooth sides, no more GG's left and the boolit much different then when cast.
I don't like Lil'Gun, it will over heat the gun FAST. You could have a heat expansion problem.
I don't like the 4227's in the .44 but it worked perfect in the .357 max so is worth a try in your gun.
Don't you just hate the short rotary magazine?

[Travelor]

44man, thanks for the reply. I'll have to check on what powders I have and give them a try.

What has been your "go to" load for your 77/357?

And yes, not a fan of the magazine.

[rockrat]

Can you try boolits sized to .359" or even .360"?

[Mica_Hiebert]

Gas check or plain base? And with a .3575 bore you may need to size a little bigger than .358 try seating the bullets deeper. My 360-180 cycles from the mag seated to the crimp groove so something seems odd there. I haven't shot any of mine yet just test fit. The Lil gun seems to be the powder that will get the maximum velocity with this bullet with lower pressure than h110/w296 but if you have those powders available I would give them a shot... have you developed a decent jacketed load to form a base line?

[runfiverun]

I'm pretty sure your under stabilizing that boolit.
try pushing it harder like 44 man suggests.
or try a shorter boolit like a 158 or 125.

Ruger made that rifle to shoot factory ammo and most factory ammo I see is 125 or 158.
there might be 180gr 357 mag factory stuff I dunno.

[murf205]

Have you tried a different powder? 296 maybe?
You still might be too soft too. Might be slumping the boolit. I have recovered boolits with smooth sides, no more GG's left and the boolit much different then when cast.
I don't like Lil'Gun, it will over heat the gun FAST. You could have a heat expansion problem.
I don't like the 4227's in the .44 but it worked perfect in the .357 max so is worth a try in your gun.
Don't you just hate the short rotary magazine?

44Man, that rotary magazine is THE reason I sold my 96/44 and will not buy a 77/44. If Ruger would only make a slightly longer action and a long clip (as in 300gr boolits) I'd have one in a heartbeat.

[Scharfschuetze]

I shoot a plain base 180 grain boolit similar to your NOE mould's design. They are cast of linotype and perform at 2 MOA from a Marlin 1895 Cowboy rifle.

My loads are 13.5 grains of Lil'Gun for 1650 fps and 15 grains for 1680 fps using CCI SR primers. Work up to the 15 grain load as you would any maximum load. Both charge levels will hold 2 MOA through 200 yards and would give you 1" groups at your test range of 50 yards. CCI 400 SR primers have proven to give the best ballistic uniformity and the cleanest burning with Lil'gun powder.

Here are my thoughts:

Bedding: Is that Boyd stock bedded well to your Ruger's action? Did you just drop it in and screw it down? Might check that issue before anything else. Do you still have the factory Ruger stock to use in comparing the two?

Alloy: As noted by others, you might be a bit soft

Diameter: Again, as noted by others, try .359 or .360 inch diameters

Powders: I've always had good results with Lil'gun and you probably should too. I would try a moderate load with Unique next and see where your rifle stands with that. Then try 2400, 296 and other appropriate powders. With your soft alloy, the Unique load just might surprise you.

Primers: Lil'gun seems to prefere small rifle primers in my 24" Marlin rifle. The difference is sometime as much as 2 MOA between CCI 400 primers and standard SP primers.

Good luck with your project.

[runfiverun]

the slower powders and a hotter primer thing is something that works well for me too, in many smaller cases.
I don't see any data calling for a sr mag primer in the 25-20 but it works for me quite well.

[Digital Dan]

44Man, that rotary magazine is THE reason I sold my 96/44 and will not buy a 77/44. If Ruger would only make a slightly longer action and a long clip (as in 300gr boolits) I'd have one in a heartbeat.

My 77/44 gets along just dandy with 300 grain bullets. Pure lead loaded to 1.68" over a full dose of Li'l Gun. They average ~1600 fps at the muzzle.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v298/muddler/Guns/photo%202%202_zps2588rqcx.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/muddler/media/Guns/photo%202%202_zps2588rqcx.jpg.html)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v298/muddler/Guns/.44%20paper%20patch_zpsh84lt5dq.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/muddler/media/Guns/.44%20paper%20patch_zpsh84lt5dq.jpg.html)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v298/muddler/Guns/627b4656-cd5c-45f5-a12c-e336e1f16dcd_zpsi3ucunrq.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/muddler/media/Guns/627b4656-cd5c-45f5-a12c-e336e1f16dcd_zpsi3ucunrq.jpg.html)

[rollmyown]

Great results there DD. What mould and paper are you using?

[Digital Dan]

Patched with wet 9# Onionskin w/25% cotton fiber. Fold the skirt under, not twisted. Bullet is my design, swaged and produced by Montana Precision Swaging back in '99. .422" diameter on the shank. 50/50 beeswax/vaseline lube. They also made a cup base design but it tended to blow the skirt much over 1200 fps. The shot quite well at the lower velocity though. I don't see the flat base version available at present and my word, the supply at Midway is ridiculously expensive.

Purchased 1,000 back then and If/when I run out I'll have someone make a mould and keep on keepin' on.

[Travelor]

Thanks guys, I am seeing that there may be light at the end of the tunnel.

George

[44man]

I never used a heavy boolit except in the max where I used 200 gr steel slammers. Seems your twist should work.
Had a Ruger semi here in .44 to shorten the stock on for a youngster, now THAT was fun because they wanted to stay with the original plate.
Of course I had to shoot it and none of my loads fit so I shot single shot. It shot very well but I had to shoot backwards on my range, farmer was working the field out front. I didn't notice a huge sycamore tree was in line with my target. Darn thing shot all the way through the tree. Those heavy boolits just don't stop!

[Mica_Hiebert]

Allot of people are having good luck in the 77/357 with heavier bullets actually 110 grain shoot more like a pattern and I've herd some have had ok luck with 125s but the sweet spot seems to be 140 and above lots shooting the noe 360/180

[Travelor]

I sized some 358156HP GC bullets to .359" and used 14 gr. of 2400. Better but not quite there yet.
I have have a .360 sizing and lube die ordered to see if this will work even better.

[Shiloh]

Can you try boolits sized to .359" or even .360"?

From previous discussions on the forum, bigger may be better. Try one change at a time.

Shiloh

[Travelor]

Guys, I'm just about ready to concede defeat in getting this gun to shoot. Yesterday the best groups were close to three inches at 50 yards. I'm putting it back into the factory stock and giving it one more try before returning it to Ruger for their inspection.

I've tried all my tricks - different powders, different bullets, different primers, different lead alloys.

Don't know what else to do, but I'm open to suggestions.

George

[Rustyleee]

I have heard that both the 44/77 and the 357/77 can benefit greatly by firelapping. Do a search here on this site and I think you'll fine a number of people saying that it helped them.
Will it shoot with J-words ?

[square butte]

Have you though about the Bolt Shims to take the play out of the bolt body and headspace? I have not used them, but have read of people seeing quite a bit of improvement. triggershims.com - They make trigger shims as well.

[2ndAmendmentNut]

You mentioned in your first post that you got this rifle to shoot 1" at 50yards with factory 38s. Your rifle is capable of accuracy. At this point I would honestly try a few 357mag factory loads of different weight ranges and try to duplicate the one that works best. Another thing to try is the ladder load method at 100yards and see where the sweet spot is. I have always had issues with 357 loads that clock in the 1200fps range. Supposedly leaving the barrel at super sonic speeds and dropping subsonic before impact can cause serious accuracy issues. Might try a load that is either subsonic all the way to the target or fast enough to be super sonic at least to the target.

[Hickok]

Have you though about the Bolt Shims to take the play out of the bolt body and headspace? I have not used them, but have read of people seeing quite a bit of improvement. triggershims.com - They make trigger shims as well.You beat me to it. My brother has a heavy barrel .22 Hornet Ruger that he was ready to wrap around a tree. It made a better shotgun than a varmit rifle. I figured I would give it a try, and took the bolt apart and put a shim between the two pieces, and it now shoots great. Amazing difference. Ruger needs to step up and correct this flaw in these type rifle actions.

[Jeff Michel]

Too hard and too small and probably too fast. I'm running the same bullet in the same rifle. Sized .360 50/50 ww/pb, lubed with alox and beeswax (50/50) velocity is 1470, 12 grains of 2400. Mine is an honest 1.5" at 100 yards.
Good luck

[Travelor]

Thank you guys for the suggestions. I will give them a try.

George

[Travelor]

When cleaning my rifle after he last foray to the range I found the action screws to be only finger tight. Interesting as I had torqued them to 25 inch pounds before shooting. I've now Locktited them for the next attempt to find an accurate load.

[2ndAmendmentNut]

Well that could be your problem. Double check your scope bases/rings as well.

[10mmShooter]

my Henry .357, likes .360 sized projectiles........358 and .359 es no bueno.

[44man]

I don't know about the model Ruger you have. Most Ruger bolt guns have a strange bedding system with the front lug and take a very specific tightening sequence. I have it here somewhere, need to find it.
But normal bolt guns like Rem, etc, should have the front action screw at 40 inch# and the rear at 25 inch#, any center screw should just be snug.
I have not had the 77-.44 or .357 here so I don't know.
The bolt shim sounds interesting to stop flex. I need to find a break down picture of the rifle.

[Travelor]

My Ruger 77/357 has the recoil "lug" at the rear of the magazine well and is 90 degrees to the barrel. It is cast into the receiver and is just ahead of the trigger. I am getting a good fit here so this should be not be the problem.

I bought a box of Rem 125 gr. ammo and it was shooting 1" at 50 yards until "something" happened (see below*). Loading up some 11.5 gr. 2400 loads with 147 gr. GC SWC HP's in 357 magnum cases for the next adventure in getting this gun to shoot.

Wonder what the next "learning experience will be. Believe it or not I have been shooting and reloading for 60 years and am not loosing it yet, but this little gun is doing a good job of showing me who is boss.

*I had the scope ring screws attaching them to the rifle loosen to the point the scope fell off. Thank goodness it was at the bench and fell into my hand. Now these two screws are "loctite'd" into place. Boy this gun is hell on screws!

[1Hawkeye]

Try a hard cast 158 gr swc with 6.1 grs of unique that's my favorite go to load for any .357.
If the your load is also shooting bad in your martini chances are it's the load and most likely the bullet.
Good luck

[W.R.Buchanan]

Sounds like you are getting your money's worth out of that gun. These guns are known good performers if the barrels are broke in properly and fed the right ammo. Brian Pearce did an article on both the 77/357 and 77/44. Both were shotguns until the barrel was broke in but after that they were sub 1" at 75 yards with iron sights a proper loads with cast and jacketed bullets.

My main concern after reading all your posts is that you changed everything before doing anything and now you are lost. You should have shot the gun while in the stock configuration and then if you must,,, change one thing at a time so you know where you've been, and can go back the way you came if necessary. The mess you've made has got so many variables it will be very hard to nail down exactly what is going on. It is virtually impossible for anyone to give you a definitive answer as to what to do that would make a meaningful difference.

I would recommend putting the gun back stock with your scope mounted, and starting over by breaking the barrel in properly. Then change the trigger as that won't change the way the gun mechanically shoots as long as it fits in the stock correctly. Then if you must change your stock back out .

Of course you would be shooting the gun after each change until you found or verified an accurate load. Then if it went to Ship when you changed something,,,, you'd know exactly what caused it.

As opposed to where you are at currently.

This is the only course of action that I see being able to unravel your problem.

Good Luck on your project.

Randy

[Travelor]

Well, a little chagrined to report that I found that each time I shot the gun the action screws and the ring base screws were "shooting loose". Rooky move not watching that more closely, but Randy is correct in noting many changes - not one at a time causing me to loose focus.

Latest range trip with LocTite'd screws shows much better accuracy. Now I can focus (as Randy pointed out) making small single changes to find what works best.

Next range trip wil be with the Lyman 358156 GC HP sized to .358, .359. and .360 using the same load - 12.5 grains of 2400.

BTW Randy what is your suggestion for breaking in a barrel using cast bullets only? My experience is very limited in this regard as I have one dedicated new barreled 308 Win (never used jacketed bullets in this Krieger barrel). The 308 shoots under 1" at 100 yards and still improving. Other that that all my experience is with 22 LR barrels.

[Travelor]

Back to square one.

Guns shooting not so good!!!!!!!!

[2ndAmendmentNut]

So if I read everything correctly... Once the gun was loctited in place it shot well with factory ammo? If the gun shoots with factory ammo than the problem is your loads. This is a good problem to have, because your loads are the easiest to change. If you are not familiar with the "ladder load" method do a search for it now and give it a try. Also stop monkeying around with different boolit diameters. Just shoot the fattest boolit that will chamber.

2400 is a good powder and one I would not give up on until you have tried the ladder method from min to max.

One other thing,I would advise using standard primers not magnums. In my opinion a 357mag is not a big enough magnum to justify a magnum primer, and all my loads shoot the same or better with standard primers.

[Travelor]

2ndAmendmentNut (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/member.php?9972-2ndAmendmentNut), by well, it shot a Remington 125 jacketed soft points for a 5 shot group of 1.5" at 50 yards. My cast bullet groups go vertical, horizontal, or uneven "groups at random with the same loads. Even the tried and true 2.7 grains of Bullseye with a HBWC from Remington in a 38 case wanders.

From what I have been reading some forum members are getting this or close to it at 100 yards.

The ladder test with .360" sized bullets is next.

Thanks,
George

[2ndAmendmentNut]

Maybe it has been mentioned, but do your loads lead the barrel? If so where at in the barrel does lead accumulate?

[Travelor]

When I clean the gun, I find very small and few streaks of lead immediately in front of the chamber (in the leade and about 1/4" into the rifling) and none past there. The lead cleans out with tight fitting patches. Bore scoping the barrel, it looks very smooth - much like a custom barrel.

I bought a box of Remington jacketed ammo and the very best group was 1 1/2" at best. I called Ruger yesterday and spoke with a very nice young Customer Services lady. I asked what the minimum accuracy standard was as defined by Ruger for this gun - answer after she talked with the tech's was 1" at 50 yards. She sent me a prepaid return label when I told her of my experiences with this rifle.

Just got a NOE 360-180 WFN mold Saturday and I have cast a few bullets out of linotype and sized them to .360 for one last attempt to get this gun to shoot. Will try some 2400 and see if this will solve the accuracy problems. If not back to Ruger it goes..................

[Travelor]

I give up!! This gun will not shoot.

It's going back to Ruger.............................................