New load work-ups

[lead4me]

This may be a "dumb" question but...I'm in the process of working up some loads for a 38-72 1895 rifle. I have 4 different powders to work with. I'm making 5 rds each and laddering up the loads. So in the end I have 50rds of 10 different loads and powders. What method do you guys use to keep them all separate and identified? I have just used ziploc sandwich bags with a slip of paper in them and dropped in a small box. Is there a better way that I'm just not seeing. This by the way is my first attempt to really work up a load to a rifle that has so little in the way of published loads for it. Am I going about this the wrong way/is there a better way to accomplish this.
I have already slugged the bore and made a sizing die to fit the boolit. I made 4 rds one with each powder in the middle of my range and they all hit point on. I had bought a box of Country Line Classic ammo, they tumbled something terrible. Hitting the target sideways at 50 yds, undersized boolits and way to stiff a load. They were loaded with 28gn of 4198 with a 300gn GC boolit sized at .375. Trying to do a little better than Factory, it was 270gn boolit at 1475 fps. I'm working with 4198, 5744, 3031 an rel 7 & boolit GCed and sized .001 over bore.
Any suggestions from those that have been there an done that would be appreciated.

[Scharfschuetze]

I have just used ziploc sandwich bags with a slip of paper in them and dropped in a small box.

That's what I do initially. I also take a note book to the range to record the results. The results then go into my permanent records for future use.

That 38-72 sounds like a lot of fun.

[s mac]

Fifty round ammo box with a masking tape label, mark the row with data description and keep them in order.

[LAH]

Fifty round ammo box with a masking tape label, mark the row with data description and keep them in order.

Me too

[OS OK]

My method, somewhat OCD, is a good way to keep track of everything. After the ladder work I like to look at the primers edges more closely so thats one of the reasons I color the primers. I also save the targets and the notes and put them into a notebook for loadwork to refer to later.
"Breaking your Routine"…BENCH TIPS (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?299629-quot-Breaking-your-Routine-quot-%85BENCH-TIPS) …post no. 30.

Hope this helps…OS OK

[Strtspdlx]

I usually take a sharpie and write a number on each cartridge. Then I write corresponding data in my book for each cartridge. For me it's easier to shoot and recover something that I know is exactly a certain load. But that's just how I do it.

[Toymaker]

I get teased for my process, but when I'm asked a question I can give a pretty good answer. Every rifle/pistol has a notebook. Usually just a little 4x6 either loose leaf or spiral bound. I keep the test rounds in a 50-round ammo box, and after the cat once knocked over a box I now magic marker the grains on each case. On the computer I make labels (to be printed on plain paper) with Case Information, Bullet Information, Primer Information, Powder Information and O.A.L. These are cut out and put in the ammo box with the first round with that load.
I shoot 5-round groups at 100 yards through a chrony. The rounds are laid out, the strip of paper (label) is taped or [white] glued in the notebook with information on light, wind, temperature, humidity and barometric pressure. Then the shots fired. After each shot I check the spotting scope and mark the approximate position on a little drawing in the notebook. Relays at my range are 30 minutes and this process takes 15 to 20 minutes. I then wipe out the bore of the rifle, checking for leading or anything that may be amiss. I do not clean, just run a couple of dry patches through and clear most of the fouling.
Targets are retrieved and, if they'll fit, they're cut so the group will fit in the notebook where they're taped or glued in. The information from the chrony printer is taped/glued in too. If the group is so bad it won't fit I confirm the location of the hits on the drawing.
The process for black powder loads is similar but I wipe between each shot using both sides of a patch soaked with Moose Milk.
Basically, do what works for you. BUT be sure to write things down because you'll never remember what you did back when.

[lead4me]

Thanks a lot of good info here and kind of along the lines I was thinking. I know I have much to learn and nobody I know locally that does this. I have everything ready to go, now if Michigan weather would give me a opening....Thanks for the reply's

[blikseme300]

Good methods mentioned above. I am a firm believer that you cannot document too much and relying on memory is not a good idea.

I have become OCD as I have scratched my head too often trying to recall things so I document everything.

[sigep1764]

I use coin rolls from the bank. Stuff the rounds in the coin roll, seal it with tape and write the load in sharpie on the roll. Do the same with the next load level.

[Mk42gunner]

I have tried several methods, some work better than others.

The snack size ziplock baggies work pretty well, the advantage is you can put the fired cases back in the baggie so you can measure head expansion after you get home.

A 50 round box sounds like a good idea, until the aforementioned cat knocks the box over spilling everything. You can also lose the sheet of paper that has load notes, or forget which side of the box you started from.

Writing on the case with a sharpie works okay.

Robert

[mdi]

I use Avery stick on labels (2"x4") and use my computer to print up labels with the pertinent info and stick them on a zip-loc bag. I will use my "2" method for determining/testing; two cylinders full for my revolvers, 2 magazines for my semi-autos (for high capacity just 6 or 7 in each magazine) 2 magazines (or stripper clips) for my bolt guns and two clips for my Garand. I like reloading and am in no hurry so I'll bag up a two or three loads to test/record results and a bunch of known loads jes fer shootin'...

[mdi]

I have tried several methods, some work better than others.

The snack size ziplock baggies work pretty well, the advantage is you can put the fired cases back in the baggie so you can measure head expansion after you get home.

A 50 round box sounds like a good idea, until the aforementioned cat knocks the box over spilling everything. You can also lose the sheet of paper that has load notes, or forget which side of the box you started from.

Writing on the case with a sharpie works okay.

Robert
Or you might rub the data off the case with sweaty/oily fingers when loading yer gun...:bigsmyl2:

[Bullwolf]

I used to apply colored nail polish around the primer and head stamp to help differentiate load workups, or else write carefully on the brass with a black permanent marker.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...rker-for-brass (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?250477-permanent-marker-for-brass)

Now I use colored sharpies and a small paper legend instead, rather than trying to write small number or symbols on the brass, with a fine tip black permanent marker.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=135917&d=1428199077

I forgot who originally posted the image, but it's what converted me to using colored pens on the primers, and a paper legend for what the marks mean.
(Works well with cartridges in Ziploc bags too)

The best part is that there were already a few different colored sharpie pens laying around the house that I was able to "appropriate" for this use, so I didn't have to go out and buy anything new.

http://theofficepanda.com/wp-content/uploads/img/SharpieFinePointPermanentMarkers5ColoredMarkers306 53PPg1L.jpg


- Bullwolf

[Tatume]

One five shot group is entirely inadequate as a basis for judging accuracy. I pick a powder and charge that are appropriate and load 50 rounds. After firing several groups to fine tune the sight setting, five, consecutive five-shot groups are fired. If accuracy is good, then at least five shots are fired over the chronograph. The remainder are fired for fun. That load is judged fairly, and the decision on keeping it or trying another is based on solid evidence.

[lead4me]

One five shot group is entirely inadequate as a basis for judging accuracy. I pick a powder and charge that are appropriate and load 50 rounds. After firing several groups to fine tune the sight setting, five, consecutive five-shot groups are fired. If accuracy is good, then at least five shots are fired over the chronograph. The remainder are fired for fun. That load is judged fairly, and the decision on keeping it or trying another is based on solid evidence.

I agree with that, however due to the lack of data available for this cartridge I first have to find a load that my rifle likes. I want to better factory FPS by a little and get a load that flies straight. It would be nice to find that first and then build a load for accuracy.

[OS OK]

One five shot group is entirely inadequate as a basis for judging accuracy. I pick a powder and charge that are appropriate and load 50 rounds. After firing several groups to fine tune the sight setting, five, consecutive five-shot groups are fired. If accuracy is good, then at least five shots are fired over the chronograph. The remainder are fired for fun. That load is judged fairly, and the decision on keeping it or trying another is based on solid evidence.

The 5 shot group thing came from running ladder test and trying to identify where the node/loads are (.5g increments), compared to your particular barrel. When a particular node is found then we back up and look at both sides of that node in .1 or .2g. increments until satisfied.
Trying this with 50 rounds per charge might get somewhat tiresome and expensive…much less, who'd have the time for it?

Bullwolf…Is this what you refer to seeing…I'm starting here with .5g. increments looking for nodes only.

165607

It was in my post.."Breaking your Routine"…BENCH TIPS (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?299629-quot-Breaking-your-Routine-quot-%85BENCH-TIPS) ..post #30 where I tried to explain about load/ladder testing.

OS OK

[Tatume]

One five shot group is entirely inadequate as a basis for judging accuracy. I pick a powder and charge that are appropriate and load 50 rounds. After firing several groups to fine tune the sight setting, five, consecutive five-shot groups are fired. If accuracy is good, then at least five shots are fired over the chronograph. The remainder are fired for fun. That load is judged fairly, and the decision on keeping it or trying another is based on solid evidence.


The 5 shot group thing came from running ladder test...

If I shoot five consecutive five-shot groups at 25 yards and they measure 3/8, 1, 1, 1, and 1-1/4 inches, I figure I have a one-inch load, but don't count on any better than 1-1/4 inches when it matters.

If you shoot five groups with your ladder routine and get the same group sizes, which load do you pick? After you pick the load that shot the 3/8 inch group, what makes you think that it is any better than the others? The group could just as easily have been larger, and it is equally likely to have been the worst load in the batch.

In fact, one group gives you almost no information. A larger sample is required to glean anything useful.

As a demonstration, get a 100-yard High Power Rifle target and lay it out on your kitchen floor. Drop five coins on the target in such a way that they stay in the black on the target, and note the "group." Do it 20 times and keep track of the groups. You will almost certainly get at least one good group, and at least one bad group. The rest will be intermediate.

[OS OK]

If I shoot five consecutive five-shot groups at 25 yards and they measure 3/8, 1, 1, 1, and 1-1/4 inches, I figure I have a one-inch load, but don't count on any better than 1-1/4 inches when it matters.

If you shoot five groups with your ladder routine and get the same group sizes, which load do you pick? After you pick the load that shot the 3/8 inch group, what makes you think that it is any better than the others? The group could just as easily have been larger, and it is equally likely to have been the worst load in the batch.

In fact, one group gives you almost no information. A larger sample is required to glean anything useful.

As a demonstration, get a 100-yard High Power Rifle target and lay it out on your kitchen floor. Drop five coins on the target in such a way that they stay in the black on the target, and note the "group." Do it 20 times and keep track of the groups. You will almost certainly get at least one good group, and at least one bad group. The rest will be intermediate.

165622165623165624165625165626

This is what I'm talking about…'study' the groups and the 'notes' per target. I think this concept of a 'ladder test' escapes your 'comprehension' all together. I am not 'dropping coins' on the kitchen floor to see how my loads work nor do I need that 'visionary explanation' from you, thank you very much!

OS OK

[websterz]

I loaded up a ladder for my SR45 today. I use an old commercial ammo box. The front of the tray is marked so I know which end to start from at the range. I have five rounds each of five different charges. I put my map in the box with each row marked with enough room left to write in the chrono data. Nothing fancy but it works quite well.

[GONRA]

GONRA's working up a -P- 9mm Glisenti auto pistol load
using modern WW 231 powder instead of looong obsolete Du Pont 5066 powder back in 1960's.
Hopefully have learned some tricks from this forum to reduce leading and keyholing in the pitted barrel!
(If I still have leading and keyholing, it will be all YOU guys fault. We'll see....)

Like ya'll suggested, am gonna mark case heads with different colored Sharpie pens.
(Decades ago, grabbed some of Mrs. GONRA's nail polish.
Today, Sharpies sound way better.)

[Bullwolf]

Bullwolf…Is this what you refer to seeing?

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=165607&d=1455639066

OS OK


Yes.

I do the same with the colored sharpie pen markings on primers, and a legend.



- Bullwolf

[brass2bullets]

I use my daughters permanent markers to color the bottom of case then, put in an ammo box. Also keep a note book with the colors and notes. A wipe with alcohol will take marker off.


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[MostlyLeverGuns]

Colored Sharpies - use dots, dashes, crosses, circles, fill-ins on the primers if not enough different colors. Many colors of Sharpies, packs of 4, basic 8, then the artist packs, lots of colors, not all work for all eyes. I have also numbered cases for different purposes - different loads, keep cases by weight.... Lots of Sharpie uses at the loading bench keeping track of stuff.

[Don Fischer]

I use a sharpie and write the powder chg on the side of the case. I don't do ladder test either. I've read about it and find no use for it. I load, rifle ammo, in lot's of five and go up 1/2 gr at a time. If one load looks good I'll do ten and see where that get's me. before that thought, still rifles and jacketed bullet's, I test for pressure. I start 2 1/2 grs below max and go up 1 gr at a tine, that'll take me a half gr over max. I find what I determine is a pressure sign, the test stop's right there and I consider that max.