Help a Noobie Out? [Archive]

Drame22

04-04-2016, 12:53 PM

prs

04-04-2016, 01:19 PM

Regarding the size of your balls, er, uh; well, you know. Let your specific rifle tell you. .490 with a thicker/more durable patch might be good, but some rifles may do better with thinner patch and tighter ball. Patch thickness with either ball size is another adventure you will best explore yourself. Minnie ball size is another adventure. If you will be shooting long strings without cleaning or wet patching, the smaller will have benefit. If you try to make your own BP with pine charcoal, you may want to try .177 pellets ;-). The Lee pot has arbitrary numbers on its temp control and the lead or alloy temp is set with a thermometer made for casting; get one. Pure or near pure lead is more tricky with which to cast as compared to lead/tin/antimony alloy; but once you get the mold up to temp and the melt settled at casting temp (I use 725 to 750 F for pure lead), it drops beautiful shiny bullets. Wax is a good oxide reducer, crumpled wood shavings or coarse saw dust is a better flux. Stir them in and bring the lower levels of the pot contents to the top to contact the flux and reducing agents. About, making your own BP, do keep your insurance premiums up to date and do not expect to perform on the level of quality production BP. Olde Eynsford, Swiss, or Shuetzen may bring broader smiles. Will you knap your own flints or press your own caps? You should make your own lube and cut your patches from pillow ticking.

prs

Possum Lickaa

04-04-2016, 01:25 PM

As a fellow newbie here, I can tell you that the answers to all of your questions have been discussed ad infinitum on this site. Do some more reading, and some searches, read all of the stickies. There is a TON of info in there.

Lead Fred

04-04-2016, 01:31 PM

Before you go spending money, what is the twist of your barrel?
Round ball works with slower twist, conicals faster.

The general rule is -.010 for a tight fit. I use a .440 for my 45 cal, and a .015 patch.
So .490 & a .015 patch works well.

country gent

04-04-2016, 01:39 PM

I am kind of diffrent when it comes to loaning moulds out, I would rather cast some for the person. Lee moulds are okay but wont take alot of heavy handed operation or abuse either. The aluminum they use is on the softer side. Ive never worked with Noe or other aluminum moulds so can not say one way or the other on them. Steel holds up well produces good bullets and is the old stand by material. Steel blocks will be heavier than aluminum also. Brass moulds are good normally produce very nice bullets dont rust but are softer than steel. they are the heaviest blocks of all three materials. As to pots Lees 20 lb is good the new Lyman 25 is probably a little better. You need to look at the opening between spout and base If you use decide on a minnie mould with the lyman style pin some may not have enough room for it under the pot. Also with pure lead and higher temps to cast drips may become an issue. You might consider a simple ladle pot and ladle casting for these. The minnies may cast easier with a opened up ladle keeping the blocks hotter and a better flow. The round balls should cast good either way. If you want real production look to noe for a 4 cavity round ball mould in the size you want and most minnies are single cavity. Buy 2 of each mould and cast in tandem, this way when 1 mould is solidifying and cooling your filling the second set. Youll empty a 20lb pot pretty quick like this. A simple pot can be made from a 25# propane cylinder for ladle casting, heated on a stand with a fish frier or weed burner, gives 100lb capacity and youll go empty before it does. LOL. The bigger pots can be a plus when wanting to run a lot of bullets.

runfiverun

04-04-2016, 02:29 PM

back it down a notch,,,, you got a little way's to go to get started.

your questions are many and they are covered in several different areas on the forum.
break them down to the appropriate section and you'll get more detailed info than you can imagine.

ryokox3

04-04-2016, 02:38 PM

Lee has a mold with a round ball and a R.E.A.L. (rifling engraved at loading) boolit in it. I'm not sure if that is an option or if you need a more traditional mini ball, but for me that has worked well.

Drame22

04-04-2016, 05:19 PM

In reverse order:

-Ryokox3:

That was an option I came across; the Lee .490 Combo Mold. However I don't need Minie's for .50, only my .58's. I have a bunch of Springfields, Enfields, Zouaves, etc, and then a bunch of your typical Hawkens, Kentucky's, Bobcats, etc. All the civilians are .50, and all my military are .58.

Runfiverun:

I feel like these are simple enough answers that they did not each need their own thread on the matter. It's not a question of not knowing what I'm doing, it's a question of the little details now (how how will this pot get, what gear to maintain on site, etc).

Country:

Alas, we all have jobs. Frankly I find the actual casting a bit dull, at least from viewing it online. It's dangerous work too, so it's not like you can turn on the TV and auto-mode like when you're rolling cartridge tubes. But it beats the hell out of paying out the nose for bullets.

I'm not to the point where I can make my own powder or caps yet. But yes, I definitely do plan to do thorough research down the line. For now I have the space and materials to turn out plenty of bullets, but not enough space for a ball mill/charcoal kiln/etc.

Lead Fred:

Erhm..... the twists are all different kinds. I have about 30 longarms just myself. Realistically we're not trying the max ranges of these rifles very often, shooting them is for fun, and for re-enacting. So minute differences in ball physics won't bother anyone too much. Certainly not one person has a scope mounted, let alone the desire to get the 'perfect' load of powder, etc.

Possum:

Already on it, but I did want the above questions answered sooner rather than later, as I'd like to get started by the end of April. But yes, I am going through the stickies in addition to reading up on everything else I can find, with as much time as I can spare.

PRS:

Ok, so if my rifles are all different types, should I just be safe and go with the .010 difference?

My plan as of now is to purchase:

-Lee Pot
-Gunsmith's Thermometer (0-1,000 Degree range)
-Thick Heatproofed Gloves (that extend halfway towards elbow)
-Lee 18-cavity buckshot mold
-Lee 12-cavity .490 round ball mold
-Custom Lee 6-cavity .575 minie mold
-Handles (2)
-Thick Utility Towel (to dampen and place wherever your bullets will land, fresh out of the presses as it were)

Is there anything I'm missing? I have a place; a rubber mallet vised and ready, a respirator and safety googles already, as well as plenty of clean up gear. I've been watching tutorials and reading safety tips pretty much non-stop today.

Oh, and yes, I have a fire extinguisher. Not that I don't plan to be immensely careful with liquefied metal. I'm in no hurry to put a hole in the floor, or in my arm. Everything will be taken in baby steps.

Yodogsandman

04-04-2016, 05:28 PM

Hello everyone,

So I've decided to get into black powder bullet casting. Specifically, I'm purchasing a mold for .490 round ball (unless, can someone tell me, is .495 better for your typical .50 cal?), and a .575 minie (same question; is a .570 better?), as well as a bottom-spout furnace pot, either Lee or maaayyyybbbeeee Lyman. See, I did my research first :bigsmyl2:

.490" for a round ball in 50 Cal, the patch thickness is where you make any adjustments.

.575" for a 58 cal minnie ball, the base expands to seal the barrel. The .005" below barrel diameter is to allow for fouling on follow up shots.

So the questions I have are as follows:

-Does the Lee heat up automatically to the right temp? I see no controls on their bottom-spout version. Lead melts at 641F if I recall correctly.

Yes, there is a heat control knob on the bottom spout Lee Pro 4-20 or Production Pot.

Pure lead melts at 621*F.

-What is ideal temp for fastest bullet casting? I'm doing this for mass production, not just as a fun hobby. I'm a serious shooter and bullets are seriously expensive, but as I live in the Pacific NW, I have basically unlimited access to free lead, and free firewood to purify that lead. So really my only investment is tools and time, to reduce my minie balls from $0.45 a round to $0.02 a round.

Slow down a bit, good boolits shoot much better than bad boolits made fast.

-How do I remove alloys from lead? Or should I even bother, and just go for pure lead?

You don't remove alloys easily, get pure lead.

-The Lee seems suspiciously cheap; does anyone have a review on that?

Good enough for most of our uses but, we all complain about them.

-Some people add flux; some do not. Is it necessary when using pure lead?

Yes, pure lead will still form lead oxides on the surface which must be fluxed back into the melt.

-Does wax really pull impurities from the lead?

Yes, but sawdust is better for that. Waxes are better at reducing tin or lead oxides back into your melt.

My final questions come to the molds themselves.

-Firstly, what is the best long-term material for the mold (steel, aluminum, etc) for continuous use? I'm talking when I'm not using this mold, there will certainly be a buddy who is borrowing it for the night to crank out a few hundred bullets. So regarding this, I certainly don't mind paying a higher initial price for a life-long investment piece.

Steel, a quality steel mold, well taken care of, will be an heirloom your grandchildren to use.

-Lee molds; how do they rate? And has anyone tried their 12-cavity .490 mold? Does that actually speed up production, having to go back and cut each pair apart after the casting process?

I've never used a Lee one but, are you casting for an entire encampment? A 2 cavity is plenty.

-No one has yet given me a definitive answer on whether I should be giving .005 or .010 allowance in a BP bullet. Some are .575 for a .58, some are .490 for a .50, it's madness! Can anyone un-fuddle the waters?

See answer above.

Beyond my questions, any helpful tips or tricks are welcome.

I've already added a vise with my rubber mallet to my table, so I don't have to put down the mold to tap any stubborn bullets out. I have been doing a ton of research on this for the past few hours, prior to registering here and asking, but I am still very much a noob, so please use layman's terms.

Wear your safety glasses and protective clothing.
No water or moisture near molten lead.
Pour the heavier boolits (.58 Minnie), fast and hot.

Also; ball mills? Worth it? I have the space and know-how to make larger ones, which I've heard is the only economical way to do it. And I get pine for free to turn into soft charcoal, as well as potassium nitrate. All that's left is sulphur. Anyone have a proven, easy and efficient way to make FFg powder specifically? I rarely shoot anything other than that.

While it's possible to make your own FFG, buy it (at least at first). Consistent ignition is the key to accuracy. Big differences in consistency, even between manufacturers.

Cheers all,

Welcome to the site!

bedbugbilly

04-04-2016, 07:06 PM

In response to your question about "minie balls". You state you have Springfields, Enfields, Zouave, etc.

The most commonly used mold is the Lyman/Ideal 575-213. This is hollow base minie and should only be cast out of soft lead due to the requirement of the skirt needed to expand in to the rifling. I have cast with that mold for better than 50 years and I've used it in original '61s, '63s as well as reproduction rifled muskets. That said, you need a size that fits your bore. i.e. a tolerance that will allow for easy loading in a fouled barrel but tight enough to get good skirt expansion. "push through sizers" that go in to a single stage press are available from Lodgewood Mfg. - .575, .576, .577 etc.

Now for bore size. My first rifled musket was a Remington Zouave. It is a reproduction but not marked in any way as to the mfg. and it is a high quality rifle - better than a Zoli. The bore on it though measures out at about .582. A minie from my Lyman mold, as dropped, is too small and at 50 yards it will keyhole. That barrel is going to go to Whitacre for re-lining.

The minie, as dropped from the mold worked great in an original Barnet Enfield that I once owned - and the Enfield was a .577. It is a tight fit in my 1855 repro and it shoots well.

Used molds can be found on flea-bay, etc. A new set of 575-213 Lyman blocks is around $75 or $77 the last time I looked. You can probably pick up a set for $45 or under. I've cast literally tens of thousands out of my mold and it will never wear out if taken care of. If you want to save $$ to try them out - then get one of the Lee molds and try it out.

All I have ever used for lube in a rifled musket is to take a dab of Crisco and smear it in the base of the minie ball. It is not necessary to lube the outside grooves. Normally, I shoot a service load of 60 grains of FFG with the minie ball. There are other designs as well such as a lighter weight semi wad cutter, etc. that Lyman makes molds for. They make a fun plinking round at 25 & 50 yards.

Welcome to the forum and good luck to you! Enjoy and have fun!

Jim

Drame22

04-04-2016, 08:00 PM

In reverse order:

Bedbugbilly:

I only have reproduction if that changes your view on things. Ideally I was looking for a 'good enough' round for all of them; my biggest pet peeve is having to worry about a slew of exotic calibers; the fewer the better in my opinion. The minie's I'm making are flat-based, not hollow. They don't perform as well but again, I'm not competition shooting or hunting or doing much of anything at extreme range.

I have found a few used molds on Ebay but nothing in the 6/12 cavity I'm looking for.

Thank you for the welcome! It's good to be here! While I'm here; best place to get bulk pure lead? A lot of the sources I've run down are alloyed lead, not good for small scale like mine.

Crisco is good; I use beeswax just because my cartridges are pre-made and then sit in an ammo locker for a while, and I don't want the oily Crisco seeping into the powder or the paper.

Yodo:

Now that is the kind of answer I was hoping for! Let me go down the list:

-Excellent, I will get those measurements, thank you.

-Ok, so that means the Lee pot is on my finalized list-to-buy.

-Truth, but we do not competition shoot or use anything at extreme ranges. By 'speed' I mean the physical casting process. In other words, I don't want to mistakenly set the temp way too high, and have to wait multiple minutes for the bullets to cool before opening the mold. I'd rather it hover at 630 at set almost as soon as it goes in. This is based on watching a bunch of tutorials, so if I'm wrong please say so! But it had nothing to do with the quality of bullet; I will be inspecting every single bullet after I'm done casting for the day. Anything that doesn't pass muster gets tossed right back in the to-melt pile.

-Duly noted; maybe in a few years I'll dabble with recovering alloyed lead.

-Is aluminum just not that good? What is best place for custom steel molds?

-Let's just say I live my life by wholesale. If I'm making bullets, I might as well make 10,000. And yes, I am casting for a LOT of shooters, who shoot a LOT. Hundreds of rounds per weekend, per person, assuming they stay out the whole day.

-Duly noted, I've noticed people saying powder isn't worth it unless you make a LOT at once, and you make it professionally. So, FFg Goex it is, unless someone has a cheaper option that their $18/lb, minimum order 25lb?

So I'm hearing mixed things about Lee; is aluminum really that bad a casting tool? From what I've read, just don't slap it around and smack it on things, and it will also be an heirloom for your grandchildren.

dikman

04-04-2016, 09:09 PM

Seems you're talking about real mass production, in which case your little Lee pot is going to be woefully inadequate. You'll empty it pretty quick and will then waste a lot of time waiting for it to melt more lead. You'll either need two or three pots or a big one and a ladle, as has already been mentioned. Plus probably more than one mold. I've been using Lee molds for a little while now, with no issues other than casting out-of-round balls, however I have no idea how they will stand up long-term to casting "commercial" quantities. You said at the beginning that you are prepared to pay for better quality molds, so do it! Get yourself some good steel ones.

As has also been mentioned use only pure lead for muzzleloaders, DO NOT use alloys (particularly if anyone is using cap and ball revolvers!!).

country gent

04-04-2016, 09:25 PM

Some soft aluminums softening points (The temp where a metal starts to soften or lose strength due to temperature) arnt very high above what leads molten points are. Your probably going to end up casting around 700-750* Aluminums can start to go molten around 1400-1500* but the softening temp is much lower. I really like my brass moulds steel are good also. Not sure other than Brooks who all makes custom steel moulds. Brass look to Old West moulds, Noe, accurate. All are reasoable and quality equipment. I drop onto a dry cotton towel ( bar towel hand towel. I lay mine flat 3-6 on top of each other depending on length of casting session and moulds used. When the top towel gets full gather the 4 corners into your hand and pick it up and set aside out of the way. next towel is sitting there ready to go. A metal paint roller tray works good to hold towels and drop bullets into also. When I start running good with my 2 cavity moulds ( 45 cal 550 grn and 40 cal 400grn) in tandem I can fill a towel every 45 mins or so. And those bullets really lower the lead pots level fast. With the round balls you may really appreciate the paint roller tray so they dont roll around on you.

Yodogsandman

04-04-2016, 09:28 PM

The best lead I've used for BP is old roof flashing. Never bought any. Ask any crew you see up on a roof for some.

Lots of variables with round ball patches. I liked to use Lee brand pant legs from colored jeans. Thread count of the fabric and thickness. Lube counts too! I've used Hoppes #9 Plus (BP bore cleaner) thinking that it cleaned the bore of fouling while loading. It worked. Other stuff does too, like spit!

I cast with the Lyman 505 gr .575" minnie ball mold with the hollow base pin. Cast of soft lead, it will expand to most any barrel that's .58 caliber. This big steel mold holds the heat better than aluminum molds.

Goex FFG is best for the heavies. I've gone to...Pyrodex Select for saboted boolits and round balls. Less mess, more shots before cleaning is needed.

Drame22

04-04-2016, 09:50 PM

Reverse order:

-Yodo:

Well, I found a local contact for pure lead at $1/lb, which is more than reasonable for saving me days and days of work purifying large amounts of lead. But yes, roof flashing is a great suggestion.

Any suggestions for a steel mold custom company?

Country Gent:

Hmmm, that is a little worrisome. So same as to Yodo; what are the best (re, the cheapest for what I'm doing) custom bullet mold companies?

So far the best method seems to be a dampened towel, followed by a night of air drying, but I will be experimenting for the first few days of this.

Dikman:

Yes, I am very much talking mass production. The Lee Pot states it has a 20 minute melt time. Can you empty a pot in 20 minutes? I could get two of them, they aren't too expensive. Unless someone has a suggestion that has a bigger pot? I mean realistically I have plenty of room; 100lb pot would be great, but I absolutely need the bottom-spout, and I'd prefer to not spend more than $300 for this, ideally much less.

As to the molds, I will have one of each that are relevant to our people. If they are made of aluminum I see your concern, but if they are made out of steel do they still need cooling breaks/smoking/lubing/etc?

Drame22

04-04-2016, 09:57 PM

Anything on the market bigger than this?

http://www.cabelas.com/product/LYMAN-MAG-DIGITAL-FURNACE/1957333.uts?productVariantId=4079476&srccode=cii_17588969&cpncode=36-190308970-2&WT.tsrc=PPC&WT.mc_id=GoogleProductAds&WT.z_mc_id1=04086943&rid=20

And by that I mean the pot capacity; I certainly don't need it any fancier than digital, so if there's a basic one out there, let me know.

RogerDat

04-04-2016, 10:11 PM

I'm a ladle caster so I don't use bottom pour, matter of fact up until this weekend I always used a propane burner to cast. That said I did a lot of investigation on the Lee pots and for the volume you are looking at you will probably need a bottom pour and large sized. My research and asking around pretty consistently had the Lee bottom pour with the handle in the front as less of a drip-o-matic then the one with the handle at the top. Also has twice the lead capacity.
This one
http://www.titanreloading.com/melters/lee-pro-4-20-lb-melter-110-volt
Rather than this one
http://www.titanreloading.com/melters/lee-production-pot-iv-melter-110-volt

You will want a hot plate, one with a cast iron top. Might be $20 at a big box store. This will allow you to heat your mold to operating temperature before you start casting. Otherwise you will find your first several fills getting crummy bullets while the hot lead heats up the mold. Over time you will find the exact setting on the hot plate to get your mold right at good casting temperature.

The Lee Melter heat knob/dial just gives you a reference mark. So you can hit the same temperature the next time. I think you will possibly want to be up around 700* or a little higher for plain lead. I'm no expert on round ball casting in plain lead but even with alloy having tin I cast around 680* - 710* in a two cavity.

Nothing wrong with Lee molds, they are not as dense of an aluminum alloy this means lighter weight (less fatigue) but also not as resistant to scratches or dings. Might be a little less high end in their fit and finish but very workable. I would guess the least amount I have cast with a $20 Lee 2 cavity mold is 1000 bullets. And they are all sitting there ready to do more. If you are trying to keep the cost per shot low....

NOE aluminum molds are nicer but they are also a good deal more expensive. Somewhat heavier too. The quality of the aluminum and steel sprue plate for NOE is definitely better. The fit and finish is more precise and they have extra touches such as set screw to lock the sprue pivot screw from working loose. Things like that. I don't know if they make RB molds.

Cast iron is different and there are some things about them to like but they are heavier and don't cool or heat as rapidly as aluminum. Other than that I like them if the price is good. I have never used brass but I understand you can solder the cast lead alloy to it if you get your alloy and mold at the right temp.

On the other hand drop your mold blocks on a concrete floor and there is a good chance of doing some damage to most of them irrespective of the make or material. Get started with the Lee and if you need (or want) some other sizes or bullets try out some molds that cost more and see what suits you. Probably will be whatever suits that specific firearm.

JonB_in_Glencoe

04-04-2016, 10:21 PM

First of all
Drame22, welcome to the forum.

I got a big kick out of your first post...especially this line.

SNIP...

I have been doing a ton of research on this for the past few hours, prior to registering here and asking, but I am still very much a noob, so please use layman's terms.
No offense, but in regards to boolit casting, a ton of research can not be done in a few hours.

OK, First thing you need to do is get the Lyman castbullet handbook 4th ed. It's kind of the Bible of cast boolits.
https://www.midwayusa.com/product/867465/lyman-cast-bullet-handbook-4th-edition-book
Read the first half of the book, then read it again.
That will answer many of the questions you posed, plus a ton more that you haven't thought of asking ...and also give you a base knowledge and vocabulary to ask the "next stage of questions". The second half of the book, is cast boolit data...Real, Tested Data...extremely valuable to a boolit caster. Because, once you are bit, with the casting bug, you'll be casting boolits for your centerfire pistol in no time.

When you decide to buy some equipment, Just go with a Lee Pot and a Lee 2 cavity mold...BUY NEW, so you don't get stuck with someone else's problems. Just one mold to start out with, the most likely design, that you'll use the most of...I suspect the .490 RB.

The Lee pot has it's issues, you can search out that type of info, there are hundreds of threads about it, But it's what most of us use, it works just fine, and if you use TLC and keep it clean, it'll work as well as the expensive brands.

When you start casting, you may have some success, you may not, you may decide casting isn't for you...If that ends up to be the case, when you sell your equipment, you are not likely to lose very much $$$.

I hear you when you want to cast with a 12 or 18 cavity mold for the big production, but it will increase your learning curve greatly and increase the likelihood of discouragement. start simple, with a inexpensive Lee 2 cavity mold...when you get the feel of it, it'll be a much easier transition to a large mold. Also, if you are a bit hamfisted (I confess, I am), you are likely to damage your first mold (I did), and a cheap $20 mold is easy to deal with if damaged beyond repair (and kind of funny, if you are able to laugh at yourself)...BUT damage a $100 mold and it's not so funny.
Good Luck,
Jon

PS: .490 or .495 ,,,that all depends, patch thickness can be adjusted also...maybe buy or trade for some of each to see what your gun likes? ...we have a forum, just for swapping Boolits, called "The Boolit Exchange".
FYI: I have both .490 and .495 RB molds.

runfiverun

04-04-2016, 10:29 PM

magma engineering.
40 or 90 lb pots.
I have two 40 lber's here.
I dunno what your budget is, but if your gonna make a commercial amount of boolits you need commercial equipment.
you could get set up with their automatic machine and 8 two cavity molds for everything your doing that should put out 5-k a day without too much trouble.
if you need that many then ordering and picking up lead from a foundry will be your best bet for lead pricing. [4500 lbs was the last order I made]

Nose Dive

04-04-2016, 10:55 PM

Drame22... Well buddy! Welcome to the foray! As you can tell by all the repsonses from the fellas on this site...YOUR IN THE RIGHT PLACE for comments!! AND...
EXPERTISE
EXPERIENCE
KNOWLEDGE
ETC...ETC...ETC...

All of your questions and needs are addressed here.... my only opinion or advice is...read...read...read.... all of your questions are kicked around,,run over...replanted...grown green and welll... what else can I say....

the guys here have done it all... take a few hours and go to LEAD and ALLOYS and read the stickies...read the opinions and 'argurments' how on best to do what YOU want... it is all here.... some of the fellas are 60 year casters and have seen it all.

Oh...I do suggest while 'smelting' in your pot for your lead for ingots...dump in some saw dust in the bottom of the pot and then add your smelt material. Come up slow on the heat and NEVER...NEVER...add more smelt material to a molten pot of lead! I goes....KABLOOOWY!!

Good luck son. Again...read here...these guys know what they are talking about!

Nose Dive

Cheap, Fast, good. Kindly pick two.

Drame22

04-05-2016, 12:08 AM

Nose Dive:

Yes, I know enough chemistry to know not to add new material to molten lead, which is why I have decided to get two Lee 20lb pots. While one is melting down, I can be using the other one. And I certainly will be spending a lot of time on this forum, reading reading reading. And for variety, a little reading.

Cheap, Good. But I think we can sprinkle a bit of fast in there :)

Runfiverun:

Oh, the big pots sound intriguing, I'll look them up! As to commercial gear, I'm not quite that far into it yet. We shoot off thousands a month, not tens of thousands. At least, not yet, we are going out more and more, with more and more people.

JonB:

First, I do plan to buy new, don't worry. I didn't plan to deal with anyone else's problems, and I like knowing exactly what's happened to my gear, especially when we're dealing with molten metal.

You would not believe how many words I can read in just four hours; I was college-level in 6th grade. And furthermore, I do research for a living. With two screens, I can be listening to a tutorial while reading up on a forum sticky. I'm not discounting the fact that I have a lot more to learn, but likewise don't discount the fact that I have already put considerable effort into learning all I can, without even picking up a mold. Safety and research first.

The book is an excellent suggestion, and I will buy one first thing tomorrow!

As to the learning curve, I do plan to start with single-line molds, and I do have a single double-cavity Lee .490 mold that I got out of some BP deal years ago. I was not planning on learning with my $60+ molds, but I don't see the point in paying for any mold smaller than the largest size, since my goal here is mass production, at least on an individual level.

Thankfully I can describe my motor skills as graceful. I paint miniatures as one of my many hobbies, where a steady hand is a necessity.

RogerDat:

I have watched videos/tutorials/reviews on both methods, and it looks like the drop-bottom is the way to go for efficiency. I'm trying to cut all unnecessary points in the process where my hands have to leave the mold handles (putting my hammer in a vise, using a drop-bottom pot, etc). I think especially after my first 20 hours of casting, it will only make sense to use the big molds and the most efficient methods. I may try ladling with hollow-tail minie's, since they're one at a time anyway.

So can anyone answer; what is the life expectancy of one of Lee's molds? I mean, how many bullets, sorry, boolits, can I cast before I should consider replacing?

Also, any good steel mold makers out there?

waksupi

04-05-2016, 01:21 AM

-Let's just say I live my life by wholesale. If I'm making bullets, I might as well make 10,000. And yes, I am casting for a LOT of shooters, who shoot a LOT.

Well, since you are so gung ho on this, have you got the proper license from the BATF? 10 years behind bars is a long time to pay for ignorance of the law.

dikman

04-05-2016, 07:13 AM

I think Nose Dive is referring to adding additional material to a large pot when smelting raw lead/components (the chance of adding moisture is high, with rather unpleasant results!). If you are using a Lee (or other) lead pot for casting and only adding clean ingots (obviously well dried!) and/or sprue bits then it's not a problem, they can be added at any time, although they will cause a temp drop in the lead.

The Lyman pots have had pretty good reports, from what I have seen, the only real problem has been supply. The RCBS Pro-Melt is another good pot, albeit a bit dearer. The Lee heats up quicker than the RCBS. One potential issue with the Lee is dripping, some have had no issues with this while others have been plagued by them. I modded my Lee handle to make it operate like the RCBS (and put additional weight and a spring on to ensure it had lots of downward pressure on the needle. Worked well for a long time, then suddenly developed a drip that got worse and I had no option but to empty it and clean it out. I then decided to use the RCBS as my primary source of casting (it doesn't drip!). For the average home caster having to stop and clean out a pot is simply a minor annoyance, but if you're trying to run a smallish production line it would completely disrupt your schedule. Something to think about (along with the potential licencing!).

JonB_in_Glencoe

04-05-2016, 07:49 AM

Drame22,
I hope I didn't insult you, I didn't mean to. When reading, I am easily distracted, so I need to read slow to drink it all in...especially when reading of the reference variety. I just offered advice based on my own personal experience starting in this hobby, as well as the experiences of a few others who have dared to post about their "beginning" into this hobby.

It sounds like you'll do fine.
Jon

fryboy

04-05-2016, 08:03 AM

I'm going to keep it short and simple ...tons of reading will never equate to "practical application" eg; you'll never learn to swim if you don't get in the water .....

44man

04-05-2016, 08:48 AM

Ball size will depend on the barrel. Some like the TC has shallow rifling so a larger ball is very hard to load. A good ML bore should have .010" deep grooves, then a .495" would be best. A good barrel can actually use a .500 ball.
I like the Lee 20# pots and I set at 8 for pure. I have had too much trouble with Lyman and RCBS that get thermostat problems after while and don't cycle fast. Pure needs a hotter mold so a 6 cavity might present huge problems.
I don't think you can wear out a Lee mold, yes, soft but they are fine. I use aircraft aluminum for my molds.
Bottom pour is tricky with pure too.
Minie' balls should be a good thumb press fit in the bore even with skirts.
Denim makes great patches as does pillow ticking. The best patch lube, bar none is Young Country.
When a ball gets sticky to load, just put more lube on the next patch, clears it up so I could shoot hundreds of shots a day without wiping. That with a TIGHT ball in my .54. .535" ball and .020-.022" patch.

carbine

04-05-2016, 10:11 AM

With respect to the Minie Ball mould, I favor steel/iron/meehanite moulds.
Many excellent makers. You need to slug your bore to find out it actual size and get a mould that casts that size or larger. Ideally you want the ball 1-2 thousandths under bore size. They sell sizers for this. Regaring all thing Minie go to N-SSA.org bulletin board

runfiverun

04-05-2016, 10:34 AM

buying 2 pots is a good idea.
putting those pots in tandem is a better one.
then you have a constant supply of hot alloy.
one can be melting alloy [top one] and then dumping it directly down into the one your casing with.
that way you have one pot at the same level all the time and at the same heat all the time.
and the second one is doing all the work melting the scraps of alloy preparing it to go into the constant pot.

Drame22

04-05-2016, 01:03 PM

Reverse order:

Runfiverun:

Yea, the two-pot system seems to be the most economical way to do it.

That, my friend, is a very sneaky system, and one I love! How would I do that? No welding or engineering experience, but I'm a quick learner. I wonder how in depth that could get.... May not have engineering experience but that doesn't mean I don't have fun building things!

Carbine:

Do you have any brand names in particular you'd like to throw out for steel molds? I've searched about 12 variations on "custom bullet mold", and am waiting on about 20 companies to get back to me. Lee has offered to make a 6-cavity minie mold for $240 shipped, so we'll see what the others offer.

44man:

Indeed it will; for the few picky rifles we have I'll just keep buying whatever precise exotic caliber they need. The casting implement is for our piles of Hawkens, Springfield 1861's, etc. They're all more or less the same kind of rifle. Later perhaps I'll expand this enterprise beyond three molds.

Fryboy:

Oh don't you worry! I found some lead and a ladle/pot from a buddy. I start casting this weekend. The big boy molds will be here in a month, assuming I place an order immediately. I know that study can never replace experience, but that doesn't mean it's useless.

JonB:

Not at all! Pardon if my tone was misread, it's hard to insinuate with text. You are well within your rights to be worried about someone coming onto your forum already into the 'let's get casting!' portion. I just wanted it clear that I was not going in blind, nor am I taking molten metal around my squishy human self lightly. I very much like my skin uncooked, and my fingers right where they are.

Waksupi:

You are correct to mention that, and I will put a call into my local ATF agency.

That said, it's a little ridiculous to believe that casting black powder round balls even counts as the Manufacture of Ammunition.

Frankly if an ATF agent showed up at my house and THAT was his complaint, and not the full-scale, functional, cannon in my living room, I would laugh in his face. And also see him in court, because a government agency telling someone they cannot manufacture something on their own has been done before, and is patently illegal. Multiple people in my city have been told they cannot use homemade solar panels, they have to pay and use the city's electrical grid. Illegal, was fought in court, and solar panels now dot their roofs. So long as it is not actively dangerous (explosives), illegal (heroin, nuclear material) or being sold specifically for profit (producing 10,000 minies, selling 10,000 minies), you can manufacture whatever you please, and I would feel confident defending that position in court. Not that I would have to, I've never actually met one of these mythical jerk ATF agents. Everyone in Portland is nice and helpful.

To put that in a logical argument, it would be like the FCB (Federal Cookie Bureau) arguing that because you made a platter of cookies to share with your friends, the government has to issue you a Cookie Seller's License; furthermore it is illegal to bake more cookies until you obtain such a license, and if you bake so much as one more cookie, you will be thrown in prison.

Not so; I can make as many cookies as I please, so long as I don't attempt to sell them regularly for a profit. And assuming I didn't pack them with C4 or heroin or something. Which is just a waste of a good chocolate chip cookie :)

I do appreciate your concern and I hope you read as little into my light-hearted tone as I intended you to; most of my reply there was typed with a grin. I have looked up various FFL's and their requirements before; in fact I hold a Class 03 and am working on a Class 01. IF this ever became a profitable enterprise, you'd bet boolits to bacon I'd shut down production until we obtained an FFL for ammunition manufacture, whether we need one or not. But, seeing as how it's a cottage industry at best, I think that BATFE has bigger fish to fry than some guys shooting muskets in Oregon making, and shooting, a few thousand round balls a month.

That said, yes, I will call them and post their answer here.

Yodogsandman

04-05-2016, 03:30 PM

I think you'll prefer the ladle and open pot for those big boy minnie's. A bigger pot will be wanted real soon, too. Leave a big sprue puddle on top of the mold, when they cool...they'll draw a lot more lead into them.

RogerDat

04-05-2016, 04:58 PM

There are laws and regulations on manufacture of completed ammo for sale, not sure where lead balls or even cast lead bullets fit in the whole licensing and work place safety stuff. Never needed to know.

While every mold is somewhat unique in what it likes and what technique yields the results you desire the time spent casting with a 2 cavity won't be wasted. Notes from that casting on setting number + ambient temperature, setting for hot plate to pre-warm mold will help with getting consistent good results. Ambient temperature will impact how fast the mold loses heat.

You might set your towel to catch bullets as they drop into a metal paint roller tray. Makes it easy to roll the cooled ones down so the next batch does not land on hard lead and get dinged. Need a decent quality paint roller tray that is metal and strong enough to handle the weight of the lead but it does work fairly well with a towel. Bread loaf pans can hold a lot of bullets for storage and are pretty easy to dump into from a paint roller tray. Stack well too.

Casting is a skill, learning about how and safety is work and if you plan on loaning out the mold and equipment out expect some "issues" to crop up. People screwing up and causing damage, injury or breaking equipment. Just because you know not to smack the mold doesn't mean everyone will, easier to remember if it is your money into the mold.

I don't have any experience with using a second pot to pre-heat but I would guess you could move lead from one pot to the other using a large ladle pretty easily. Might want to check out one of the Rowell bottom pour. Two handed grips along with acting as a strainer to keep dross and "floaters" out of the second pot. You may be able to do better on price but these are from Rotometals via Amazon so site sponsor and easy to order. http://www.amazon.com/Casting-Ladle-Bottom-Pour-Rowell/dp/B001QV1BZK You will probably see the other sizes listed further down the page from the main item. I thinks someone may have set up to allow one pot to drain directly into the other but seems like more hassle and work than just moving it with a #4 or #5 ladle every time the pot is down by 1/4.

Drame22

04-05-2016, 10:45 PM

RogerDat:

Yes, looking into the logistics of connecting two systems into a continuous-drip format is a little bit out of my range. I think I'll take the two pots, working on one while melting in the other. It can't take faster than 20 minutes to empty a 20lb pot can it?

Hmm, I never even considered a paint tray. Good idea!

The ATF office was closed, so I'll call again tomorrow, but I seriously doubt they have any issues with people making black powder bullets. That is so far from the public eye I can't see them spending even one agent to monitor it nationally. In either case we'll find out tomorrow.

As to storage, I've got a half dozen "fat 50's" ammo cans that I epoxied feltboard into with dissecant packs behind the felt; very nice, and the perfect environment for storing pure lead. In fact I may have to make more; these 6 have been more than enough for years but with the addition of new molds, well...

Yes, it will certainly be a learning process. I intend to let people borrow my 2-cavity first; the 'big boy' molds we won't even use until at the very least one person has enough experience to properly handle them. I don't relish wasting money, and I fully expect to keep these operating for the next few decades, at least. Side note; anyone know where to get that (it looks like beeswax) wax they recommend in the Lee Tutorial Video? Ideally for less than Lee charges? Also, why is Lee less expensive from other companies?

Yodo:

Yes, I'm coming to realize that true Minie's are far more specialized than the average conicals and round balls. So now I'm looking for a single cavity Lyman; in fact I have one without a base plug if anyone feels like selling theirs, or knows where to get one. Lyman 345 single-cavity .575 minie ball mold.

Thanks for the information all, I'm learning more every day. I can't wait to cast and shoot my first bullets.

carbine

04-06-2016, 11:52 AM

Dramme
Accurate will make steel alum or brass. I have a bunch of old NEI meghanite mouds made by walt melander. Their current reputation has suffered.

Wayne Smith

04-07-2016, 07:58 AM

The issue with the BATFE is doing business. You appear to be talking of a club approach, with no money changing hands, thus no business. If you sell, then you are making ammo (or any component thereof, as per the law) and you need the requisite license, including a business license (local). As long as you are casting for friends, they are providing the lead, and no money is changing hands between the 'club' members, you are free to do it. There is no business involved.

Drame22

04-07-2016, 11:09 AM

Wayne: Precisely. Though I am buying the lead. Just easier than every clubber buying 10lb or so, I go buy up 200lb.

The only 'money' that would ever change hands is if some dummy broke one of my molds and paid for it.

For the record, I DO have a business license, an ammunition company in fact(though it's currently closed), and an FFL. Not the correct FFL for manufacture of ammunition, but I don't want anyone here thinking I'm skimping the law. And like I said, if this turns into people outside the club wanting to pay for bullets, then I will halt production and give it some more serious thought regarding automatic equipment, employees, etc.

Carbine:

I have spoken to Tom and while he was helpful and his prices were fair, his molds could do basically none of my goals. He told me "I can't make round balls, I can't make anything over 4-cavity, I can't make a 4-cavity conical mold, I can't make a cannonball mold".... So it sounds like he's great for bullet casting, so long as you absolutely hate black powder firearms, and aren't trying to do any sort of speedy production. But hey, he had a ton of cool molds for metallic cartridges, so if I ever expand past black powder I'll definitely be going through him. Right now the best option looks like Lee. I was quoted half what everyone else quoted for a custom mold from Lee for my Minie's.