what FPS for NOT using Gas Checks

[49FMarlin]

I'm going to be loading for my 22 hornet, 37g NOE
for right now I'm wanting to work up some sub-sonic rounds,

where is the point where ill need to use GC's

thanks

[NC_JEFF]

Usually anything above 1400fps, bullet fit is gonna be important tho.

[Screwbolts]

It could be the point that leading occurs, your rifle barrel is the only thing that will tell you that. There could even be another/more variables involve beyond listing the mold. and sub sonic.

I do know the standard answer to speed that sound travels at. Even that has variables based on many conditions. I have never found gas checks need on any point at below the speed of sound.

The point that needs gas checks is usually not pointed, but the base of the Boolit. :-)

Ken

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Bullets become supersonic at about 1126ft/.sec. in dry air at 68 degrees Fahrenheit. Altitude makes a difference, but it is mainly due to reducing temperature rather than density. At 14 degrees Fahrenheit, if you are going to shoot in that kind of weather, it goes down to about 1066ft./sec. As far as leading is concerned, an 1100ft./sec. Hornet is pretty much like an 1100ft./sec. .22LR. There should be no danger of leading with a plain based bullet, so long as the bore isn't roughened and the bullet isn't small enough in diameter to allow byblow of hot gases.

[44man]

It will be hard to tell since recovered boolits without damage will tell. It is the point where a boolit skids past the base and opens gas channels. A GC will stop skid and take rifling. I am not the guy to tell you what velocity since even powder choice will aid or defeat what you want.
I have no idea at what point you need a GC. Too much smoke and mirrors with final velocity meaning nothing, it is at the start of boolit movement that counts.

[runfiverun]

well like said above that point is in a different place for each gun.
I run my plain base boolits up over 1600 fps without trouble in my pistol caliber lever guns and in my 25-20 [which is also in lever guns]
neither of the 375 Winchesters would make 1400 fps without giving me trouble.
same action type, just a longer case, neither of them would do it.
at least I couldn't get them to and I tried a filler ,card stock, different powders, etc.
so I just bought a gas check mold and went to happy-ville.

[Hick]

In my 30-30 and 32 WS use lead boolits 0.001 over the slugged bore diameter, and I go to a little over 1400 fps, plain based with no leading. Up around 1600 I see leading. Some where around 1500 seems to be the limit for my rifles. YMMV

[Ballistics in Scotland]

In my 30-30 and 32 WS use lead boolits 0.001 over the slugged bore diameter, and I go to a little over 1400 fps, plain based with no leading. Up around 1600 I see leading. Some where around 1500 seems to be the limit for my rifles. YMMV

That is about typical, when none of the things people have mentioned are wrong. At any of these velocities the absence of a gas check may begin to cause leading. But in a bullet as usually constituted, the presence or absence of a gas-check has nothing to do with any tendency of the bullet to strip the rifling. If the stress of rotation will cause a half-inch of bearing surface per groove to strip away the lead, why wouldn't it do the same for a twentieth of an inch of copper?

[KenH]

The OP didn't mention type of lube, OR if he might be PC'ing his bullets..... wouldn't PC make a difference?

Ken H>

[Lloyd Smale]

I agree. Ive shot bullets out of a 4570 to 1800 fps without a gas check and absolutely no leading using hard alloys and sized correctly. Ive also seen leading in guns at 800 fps if alloy or sizing wasn't correct. Like 44 mag said when you get up there in velocity its a balancing act. Even changing powders can change everything. But doing subsonic in a gun with a decent barrel should be pretty easy without a gas check. Now if your talking shooting your gas checked bullet without a check its going to be pot luck. About what your doing is shooting a bevel based bullet and they can be finiky when it comes to leading and ive never got any kind of accuracy shooting gas checked bullets without a check.
It will be hard to tell since recovered boolits without damage will tell. It is the point where a boolit skids past the base and opens gas channels. A GC will stop skid and take rifling. I am not the guy to tell you what velocity since even powder choice will aid or defeat what you want.
I have no idea at what point you need a GC. Too much smoke and mirrors with final velocity meaning nothing, it is at the start of boolit movement that counts.

[Screwbolts]

The OP didn't mention type of lube, OR if he might be PC'ing his bullets..... wouldn't PC make a difference?

Ken H>

IMHO, You are correct, Lots of things weren't mentioned, but what was should IMHO be self evident to OP, that is, "sub sonic" less that 1125 FPS "22 hornet", "37 gr NOE" think 22 LR, even HV 22 long rifle HP shoot clean without leading with a very light coat of a wax or dry lube. IMHO he is duplicating 22 LR HP ammo using the 22 hornet case that will allow him to easily replace the primer.

IMHO, No gas checks will be needed, powder coating wont be needed, any lube will work, any fast burning powder will work, no sizing of projectile needed if loaded round will chamber. Possibly no case sizing need if unsized- lubed projectile will stay in place and chamber. the answers are there all ready, sub-sonic, 22 hornet, = lots of fun.

Ken

[49FMarlin]

IMHO, You are correct, Lots of things weren't mentioned, but what was should IMHO be self evident to OP, that is, "sub sonic" less that 1125 FPS "22 hornet", "37 gr NOE" think 22 LR, even HV 22 long rifle HP shoot clean without leading with a very light coat of a wax or dry lube. IMHO he is duplicating 22 LR HP ammo using the 22 hornet case that will allow him to easily replace the primer.

IMHO, No gas checks will be needed, powder coating wont be needed, any lube will work, any fast burning powder will work, no sizing of projectile needed if loaded round will chamber. Possibly no case sizing need if unsized- lubed projectile will stay in place and chamber. the answers are there all ready, sub-sonic, 22 hornet, = lots of fun.

Ken

LOL I'm hoping to have FUN, and yes like a 22LR so i don't know if i should buy the NOE NON gas check or GC mold,
hence my asking,--forgot to put that in there--
ill also be shooting Black Powder in it--shoot swab,shoot swab

[KenH]

From all my reading and shooting, the GC mold will work just fine without GC. With all the discussion about "perfect flat base" required for accuracy you'd think the GC relief would mess with accuracy, but it doesn't seem so. I don't have the thread at hand, but somebody on here did some pretty serious testing with GC and non GC bullets (from same mold) and found there didn't seem to be any difference in accuracy at lower velocity (where you're looking at).

Ken H>

[49FMarlin]

thank you

[kenyerian]

I have that mold in a 4 cavity with 2 plain based and 2 gas checks cavities. I use the plain based ones lubed just with BLL. I run the gas checked ones through the lyman and use 2500. These work well for hunting and I use the Gas checked ones in a Handi Rifle . I shoot the plain bases in a Contender . Some things to think about are the gas checks are small and running them through the lubrisizer is tedious. The plain based work fine in the Contender lubed with BLL. I tend to shoot it more so I have the gas checked ones backed up and I am out of the plain based. If I were to do it all over I would just get the plain based one for light Loads. It is inexpensive shooting and works well for squirrels.

[Screwbolts]

From all my reading and shooting, the GC mold will work just fine without GC. With all the discussion about "perfect flat base" required for accuracy you'd think the GC relief would mess with accuracy, but it doesn't seem so. I don't have the thread at hand, but somebody on here did some pretty serious testing with GC and non GC bullets (from same mold) and found there didn't seem to be any difference in accuracy at lower velocity (where you're looking at).
Ken H>


Yes, to the above, IMHO, get the GC mold, it gives you more options. With and without, without for lower noise fun, with, for more noise and longer distance varmint busting.

IMHO, get the 5 cavity version, easier to keep mold hot running more alloy threw it, and once hot, it will the biggest pile of perfect boolitz in the least amount of time and lets you have more time to shoot them.

I have loaded and shot lots of the 225-46 Fn BRP boolitz unchecked from K-Hornet, 222, 223s.

for your BP loads, IMHO a veg oil based lube like crisco will be fine, no swabing may be needed if you use a Blow tube between shoots. It is possible that a simple Kids straw, a straw stuck into the chamber and you blowing threw the barrel will keep the fouling moist and at bay and allow you to shoot all day.

Ken

[Ballistics in Scotland]

It sounds like you are planning something very much like the old .22 WCF which preceded the Hornet, and worked well before gas-checks were thought of. Modern cases probably won't hold quite as much black powder, due to their thicket walls, but plenty to do what you want, when the WCF could reach about 1500 ft./sec. You might go a step finer in powder than with a larger caliber, but don't go overboard on this, as the powder will be in there and burning for much the same length of time.

Some people have reported good accuracy when a gas-check mould is used without the check, and others bad. I believe both, for there are a lot of other variables in there. But I'd say if you choose the gas-check mould, be aware that you might end up having to pay for and fiddle about with the checks for every shot you will fire. Whether that risk is worth taking depends on whether the chance to sometimes load to much higher velocities could be of value to you. If you are prepared to renounce that possibility, and if you think your bore is good and bullet diameter right, going for plain base could save you trouble.

There is an alternative. If you make a simple steel holding device, to hold a gas-check bullet up to the beginning of the check section, you can file the bullet flat at the beginning of the final band, or pare it flat with a sharp blade. A 5.7mm. drill, which you can buy on eBay from Europe or China if not in the US, measures about .2244in. I wouldn't even bother with a punch to push the bullet out again. Just drill your hold in a steel bar and rap it on the edge of a vessel containing water to catch the bullet without hitting anything solid.

NOE's moulds are listed as .224, and have 255 in their titles. That should work very well with any conventional Hornet bore. But if you decide to go for any other brand of mould, be aware that while early Hornet rifles had a .223in. groove diameter, most manufacturers have gone over to the same .224 as most other .22 centrefires.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

From all my reading and shooting, the GC mold will work just fine without GC. With all the discussion about "perfect flat base" required for accuracy you'd think the GC relief would mess with accuracy, but it doesn't seem so. I don't have the thread at hand, but somebody on here did some pretty serious testing with GC and non GC bullets (from same mold) and found there didn't seem to be any difference in accuracy at lower velocity (where you're looking at).

Ken H>


From all my reading and shooting, the GC mold will work just fine without GC. With all the discussion about "perfect flat base" required for accuracy you'd think the GC relief would mess with accuracy, but it doesn't seem so. I don't have the thread at hand, but somebody on here did some pretty serious testing with GC and non GC bullets (from same mold) and found there didn't seem to be any difference in accuracy at lower velocity (where you're looking at).

Ken H>

It might be more accurate to say that the last place lead contacts steel should form a circle at a perfect right angle with the bore axis. It is easier to achieve that built into the mould contours, than it is with the junction between mould blocks and sprue-plate. I can see no reason why a gas-check bullet used without the check should be inaccurate, but people do occasionally report such results. So I wouldn't pin my future to such a mould unless I really wanted its versatility for higher velocities as well as low.

There is an alternative to the gas-check, not as effective, but perhaps good enough if plain base bullets don't turn out leading-free for you. This is the nineteenth century "grease cookie" of hard lube sandwiched between two tight-fitting discs of card. Melted beeswax spilled onto a Teflon baking sheet on a level table, or on hot water where it is allowed to go cold, ought to be fine. But you can get wax sheet made for the makers of lost wax casting models. Some of these are soft and yet have a high melting point.