Decision: 308 Winchester, But...

[BCB]

O.K.

I posted 2 polls 7mm08 or the 308 Winchester & best boolit weights for the 308 Winchester…

My goal was to get an Encore in one of the mentioned calibers—I ended up getting the 308 Winchester and I have worked with boolits from 150 grains to 200 grains…

So far, accuracy is pretty lousy!!! Doesn’t seem to matter what weight of boolit. Although the 311041’s at around 175 grains are doing better than the others…

I have tried many rounds with many combinations for powders—super fast to “burning wet paper” speed. Velocities from around 1300 fps to ~2 grand fps. The best so far is a FULL CASE of 5010PD (yea, that what I said!) at around 1650 fps…

I cannot get the boolits to touch the rifling as the extractor slides under the rim if I want to remove the unfired round. This is a problem that will need corrected…

Some have advised, “Maybe a bad barrel”. This I hear often, but I am uncertain as to how often it occurs…

So, I thought I would try some jacketed bullets just to see if this Encore barrel just might not like cast boolits. I took just a “generic” load, 2 different powders, for a 150 SST bullet and fired two 3-shot groups at 50 yards. The average of the 2 groups was 0.34”. Now I know that 2 groups does not indicate a good shooter, but those 2 groups sure make it seem there is no problem with the barrel—at least with jacketed bullets…

Gotta admit I am a bit baffled by the accuracy so far with the cast boolits. I can get a bit over an inch at 50 yards, but accuracy goes all over the board at greater distances…

Thoughts?...

Thanks for the info in the polls…

BCB

[bdicki]

Slug the barrel?

[BCB]

That is my next move...

I am always a bit scared when I do it as I fear one getting stuck with no way out but a trip to the "gun doctor"...

BCB

[Artful]

If this is a new barrel it will have to be broken in to get rid of tooling marks etc

[BCB]

Slug the barrel?

All right, you talked me into it...

I have a couple of pure lead Lee C309-150-F so I pushed one down the barrel...

As near as I can measure, it is 0.302+" x 0.3086"

Thoughts on that?...

BCB

[BCB]

If this is a new barrel it will have to be broken in to get rid of tooling marks etc

It is new, but I really don't see marks in it like I have some of my Contender barrels...

Actually, I have several Contender barrels that shoot quite well, and the barrel looks like it was cut with a chisel. Well, maybe not that bad, but there are visible marks at 90 degrees to the bore...

BCB

[country gent]

Are there any lead build ups in the bore? A new throat can be rough and the tooling marks are "against" the grain due to the reamers cutting action being radial. A build up of leading may indicate a rough spot in the bore. Some break in may be required before this barrel does its best with cast bullets. After shooting a few jacketed bullets look for fouling build up at the leade and throat then threw out the barrel. You may need to experiment with neck tension, seating depth, and sizing it self some. If bullets fit the bore correctly and there are no fouling build ups then try partial sizing ( set die to your fired shoulder dimension and back up .100 - .125 so body is barely touchd and shoulder isnt moved. Neck will only be sized a small amount down leaving a portion of the neck shoulder and body to center alighn the loaded round. Pull one of your seated bullets and measure the base of the bullet to make sure its not being swaged down during seating. Check loaded round runnout to insure bullets are concentric and straight in the case. ( Long skinny bullets can be bent under heavy seating force or even sizing). Deep grease grooves may allow this even more so since a 30 cal grease groove may only be .285 or so dia up the bullet. I would make a chamber cast and see what the throat leade angle and chamber look like also.

[runfiverun]

never mind the barrel.
look at the throat.
if it's cut like a contenders [good luck]
or some of the handi-rifles without a throat [better at least you can cut one in there]
your just pissin in the wind guessing and throwin stuff at it now, measure what your trying to beat.

[Yodogsandman]

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?218414-FYI-This-is-how-I-do-a-pound-cast

[gwpercle]

How does the rifle shoot factory ammo. I would do this to at least establish a base line as far as what can be expected .
Gary

[BCB]

How does the rifle shoot factory ammo. I would do this to at least establish a base line as far as what can be expected .
Gary

If you notice in my original post, I tried jacketed bullets (reloads) with success, at least at 50 yards. No fine tuning, just put some acceptable powder with acceptable charges listed in manuals behind the 150 SST--groups were good...

Got to be a cast thing as near as I can figure...

Thanks...BCB

[duck hollow pete]

303 if that's a good measurement, good luck, you don't have much rifling and you need a big nose to help guide a boolit down that bore?

[Scharfschuetze]

As near as I can measure, it is 0.303" x 0.3086"

Yikes! No wonder you can't touch the rifling. Most 30 cal bore riding boolits are only .300" to sometimes .301" for the bore riding nose. Even my Lyman 314299 will barely touch the lands when they are .303."

Virtually all modern 30 cal barrels for the US 30 calibre cartridges have a land diameter of .300." While that may vary a bit, .003" is way out of spec. I guess you should call TC and ask for a replacement barrel that meets specs. Either that or an oversize mould might be in your future. Best guess is a 314299 mould or perhaps a Lovern style boolit with an ascending diameter from the forward band back to the rear bands.

To confirm your slug's measurement, measure the nose diameter of your intended boolit and then see if the nose easily slides into the bore without friction from the muzzle. If it does, you'll probably never achieve the accuracy that you want using it.

[JohnH]

I've had two Encore barrels that wouldn't shoot cast, a 375 JDJ and a 280 Remington. Both are stainless. Both shoot jacketed bullets like a house afire. I ruined a 25-06 barrel with a double charge. Didn't burst the barrel but it doesn't shoot any more. It is blued carbon steel. It was prior to the incident a great cast barrel. I'm currently shooting a Ruger American in 308 and enjoying it completely. I shoot a several Contender barrels as well, a 357 and 44 octagonal and a 30 Herrett. Those shoot cast well. When I was working with the 375 JDJ barrel, I found one load it would shoot decent. All else was fair to middlin on a good day. Fellow here at the time made a comment that has stuck with me, "A good barrel will shoot many loads well" I wish I could speak to what makes a good barrel good and a bad barrel bad. Roll marks can cause tight spots, I suspect a barrel can have bends in them which would alter the harmonics or barrel time. Throats can be miss cut, chambers cut out of line with the center line of the barrels bore. I imagine that even the depth of rifling could change over the length of the barrel, the button "wandering" off center as it is pulled through the bore (assuming the barrel is button rifled which I figure TC's are I doubt they cut the rifling) Air guaging, an inspection method which measures air flow through a barrel which reflects rifling depth and bore diameter should catch some of those problems but I've no idea if TC or it's suppliers uses the method, although it should be industry standard. .303 is large for a 30 cal bore diameter but I'd bet it is in spec. If you insert your boolits noe first into the muzzle do they stop on the lands prior to entering to the first driving band or do they enter and you can turn them? If the latter, you definately need a bigger boolit.

[Artful]

Lovern style boolit would be my first thought, but How long is your throat? Can you seat out a cast to touch the rifiling?

[Tenbender]

I had an Encore custom shop 26 " 6mm br that shot like a 12 gauge. All over the paper. There surely not like a Contender.

[Mk42gunner]

Sounds like the barrel to frame and forearm to barrel fit is okay, given your brief foray with jacketed.

What are you sizing the boolits to, and how big is the throat?

Robert

[BCB]

Well, I thought I would slug the 308 barrel again and the 30-30 I have in the Contender format…

I got 0.3025” x 0.3085” for the 308 barrel and 0.3005” x 0.308” for the 30-30 barrel…

Note that the measurement of the 308 barrel is nearly the same as I stated it to be in post #5…

I did notice that the slug went quite easily the last 6”-8” of the barrel in front of the chamber. I started the slug on the muzzle end…

I really have no way to actually measure the chamber and throat as most “average” shooters probably don’t. I don’t know if it would be worth a chamber cast or not. Probably have to take it to a ‘smith to do it as I have no experience doing that…

I think the 30-30 barrel falls in line as to what a 30 caliber barrel should be? And, this Super 14” barrel is a pretty good shooter of the 311041—a small groundhog-sized steel silhouette is pretty much dead every time at 200 yards—acceptable for me…

The nose on the Lee C309-200-1R is too small at 0.2993” so it just falls into the muzzle end of the 308 and the 30-30. But, in all honesty, all the bore riders I have tried, 30, 27, and 28 caliber, were worthless. I never got any accuracy with any of them…

I actually can touch the rifling as I mentioned in post #1, but if I don’t fire the round, the extractor goes under the rim and the cartridge stays in the chamber. So, I then have to tap it out…

Oh well, I have some 311041’s that I just seated the check on and they are “as cast” the rest of the diameter. The check was seated in a .310” die…

I think if this doesn’t work better for accuracy, it will be a jacketed bullet shooter and I probably won’t own it as I am spoiled with the cost of cast boolits…

I have found that the T/C single shots can be a love/hate relationship for sure. And I certainly know quality has lessened since the S&W takeover. Hell, the trigger on this Encore is 8+ pounds and it is nearly impossible to cock the hammer with a ‘scope. It could never be done in cold weather wearing gloves…

Guess I should have done more research before the purchase…

Thanks…BCB

[Scharfschuetze]

Too bad about that 308 barrel's land measurement.

I think that you can still shoot cast boolits with success with it, but it will mean (as in my post above) a .314" diameter body design that has a .303" diameter nose. While that's a minor nuisance, it should produce satisfactory results. Another options, is a custom mould that produces a boolit to match your barrel or perhaps just a boolit design that just relies on its body to guide the boolit.

Military surplus rifle shooters often run into this issue with larger than spec barrels and they usually get the rifles to shoot, albeit with a larger diameter boolit to fit the bore. Looks like you're in the same boat and that's a sad statement on US manufacturing and quality control.

[BCB]

I had been keeping the boolits away from the rifling as I mentioned. Once the action is closed, if the round is not fired, the extractor will go under the rim and the round stays in the chamber. A cleaning rod is needed to tap it to get it out…

So, I just thought this morning—who cares if I have to tap it to get it out of the chamber—so I seated some of them to an O.C.L. that allowed them to be pushed into the rifling with minimal effort…

I used the 5010PD powder that had given the best accuracy so far regardless of it being pretty bad…

The boolits were “as cast” with just the check sized to 0.310” to put it in place. Alox was used…

I shot two 3-shot groups at 50 yards and both were less than 0.75”—interesting…

Yet, having fired T/C single shots for 25 or so years, I have come to know that on any given day, a particular reload will shoot “better than benchrest” standards!!! The same load the next day will shot 4” groups at 50 yards. I have yet to understand why this occurs, but it has been mentioned by others also…

Anyhow, I will continue to “jam” the 311041 into the rifling and see if there is some type of consistency with the accuracy displayed today…

There is no doubt that most of the problem with this barrel is the fact that it is oversized with some of the dimensions. I suppose if the chamber was measured, it likely would be on the radical side of size also—and not in favor of accuracy…

Discouraging, but part of the game I suppose…

Updates, as they occur. Or, when the viewing will be for this particular barrel…

Thanks…BCB

[jcren]

Have you tried the Lee .312-155 2r 7.62 bullet? Seems a lot of people like this bullet for loose mil surp on up to 303 Enfield.

[Motor]

I size all my boolits for .308" barrels .311" and get excellent results. Fact is I only use one boolit a Lee 160gr 2R TL.

I now powder coat them but that didn't change my loads or the accuracy.

I admit I didn't read every post but it seems you have a "fit" problem.

You do need to test your chamber fit to make sure you have room to chamber a .311" bullet.

How about neck size? Are you swaging when seating? Are you over crimping (if crimping at all).

Motor

[BCB]

Have you tried the Lee .312-155 2r 7.62 bullet? Seems a lot of people like this bullet for loose mil surp on up to 303 Enfield.

Thanks...

I may give this one a try and size to 0.311"...

So far, the 311041 checked only sized and lubed with liquid alox is showing some promise--yet, not exactly what I am looking for...

Bore riders seem mostly out of the question as the bore in the Encore is simply to large of diameter...

BCB

[Swede44mag]

BCB you might want to check out this sight I have bought springs and other items from him in the past and he has a lot of good info on TC's.
http://www.bellmtcs.com/store/

JMHO might be able to figure how to solve what sounds like a head space problem to me with the extractor giving you fits.

[Bama]

You may want to try nose riders like the Lee's that have been fully powder coated. Just measured several weights and as cast they are .300 but go up to .304 on the nose section with single coat.

[BCB]

Have you tried the Lee .312-155 2r 7.62 bullet? Seems a lot of people like this bullet for loose mil surp on up to 303 Enfield.

Would you have any idea what top punch might be used for that boolit?...

Thanks...BCB

[BCB]

BCB you might want to check out this sight I have bought springs and other items from him in the past and he has a lot of good info on TC's.
http://www.bellmtcs.com/store/

JMHO might be able to figure how to solve what sounds like a head space problem to me with the extractor giving you fits.

Yea, I am familiar with the site. I have ordered springs etc. from him in the past for my Contenders. I am thinking about ordering a spring for the trigger on this Encore. The pull is dreadful...

Just curious, why do you think headspace would cause the extractor to go under the rim, letting the case in the barrel, when opening the barrel.

Thanks...BCB

[BCB]

Thanks all…

Today, I put the Encore in the gunsafe. I finally have accepted there is little or no sense flinging lead downrange and just having more disappointment when I look at the targets…

There is little doubt the bore in this 308 Winchester barrel is too big and there is a real lose area when pushing a slug through it…

A bore rider can be inserted in the end of the barrel up to the first driving band…

I called T/C and they want the entire firearm sent back—receiver and barrel. I said “NO” to this and went about my business. Yet, that may be an option on down the line…

On another thread, several posters are suggesting a heavier boolit. A member of this site has offered to send me a few 311299’s to try. So, I will do this when I can arrange the deal…

I also have a Lee mold ordered that will be a 311” size and I am going to size that boolit to 0.311”. That might be enough to fill the bore and help with accuracy—who knows…

So, when I put the Encore in the gunsafe, I got out the Contender 23” carbine in 6.8mm SPC cartridge. Went to my range and shot a firearm that shoots nicely. You don’t need both thumbs to cock the hammer and you don’t need 8+ lbs. of pressure to pull the trigger!...

Put the rifle on the bench and sighted it in for the N.O.E. 279-124-FP as I had it sighted-in for the Hornady 120 SST for deer. Three shots at 50 yards and I pulled out the QuickLoad printout I keep with those cast boolit loads and made a final adjustment…

I was hitting my life-sized steel groundhog silhouette at 250 yards with the holdovers on the Burris ‘scope. How pleasant!!!...

I still have hope for the Encore, but it has taken more work than any other firearm I have owned. And, it still isn’t shooting near satisfactory…

Time will tell if it stays in my gunsafe or the barrel goes by the wayside…

Thanks…BCB

[dondiego]

You could sell the rifle or just the barrel even.

[BCB]

You could sell the rifle or just the barrel even.

Yep, that is an option also for sure...

I do have lighter trigger/hammer springs ordered for it so being able to pull the trigger in less than 5 seconds (!) might help a bit also, but I am pretty certain the barrel is the culprit for sure...

Time will tell with the different boolits and a bit lighter trigger...

BCB

[runfiverun]

if your just gonna let it sit it might as well sit at TC's shop getting a barrel.
how you screw up 300X308 is beyond me.
maybe Remington is making their barrels.

[BCB]

if your just gonna let it sit it might as well sit at TC's shop getting a barrel.
how you screw up 300X308 is beyond me.
maybe Remington is making their barrels.


I reckon so…

I am going to try some 311299’s and a boolit designed for the 7.62x39 that is supposed to cast at 0.312” diameter. I am then going to size to 0.311” and hope it will chamber. Maybe my neck expander won’t open the case neck enough—I don’t know—too damn many parameters to try to work-out…

If these 2 attempts don’t help with accuracy, then I guess I will have no choice but to send it back to T/C and hope for the best. OR, I guess selling the entire set-up is also another option. But then, one won’t know if it was the barrel or the receiver or both that is/was causing the problems…

Also, sending the dang thing back would require taking the ‘scope and rings and base off and putting the rear sight back on. If I put a lighter trigger spring it in, I will probably take it out too as T/C would problem remove it and put a factor one in it again. I purchased the receiver as a pistol setup without a barrel. I bought the 308 rifle barrel separately. I don’t know if this will matter as I will only be sending in the steel with no stocks or forends as I am not going to send my Boyd walnut wood with it. Plus, I have no idea how one even sends it back—how to package it etc…

Oh well, guess we’ll cross that bridge when I get there…

Thanks…BCB

[BCB]

I just cast some CTL312-160-2R boolits and I sized them to 0.311"...

Someone suggested a larger diameter boolit as the barrel on the 308 Winchester seems pretty sloppy with some of the measurements...

My question: The diameter of the pictured boolit in front of the lube grooves is 0.305". Will this be to big to shoot down the barrel of this 308 Winchester?

If I can get the boolit to enter the case and if I can get the loaded round to chamber. Of course, a dummy round will be made first...

Thanks...BCB

[runfiverun]

should be okay.
that little area right there should sit just in front of the case mouth, which is 310 in most rifles anyway.

[BCB]

should be okay.
that little area right there should sit just in front of the case mouth, which is 310 in most rifles anyway.

I used one of those Hornady O.C.L. gauges of which I make my own Modified Cases for it...

I have no problem getting the case with the boolit to chamber and I do have an O.C.L. for the aforementioned boolit...

My concern is the front of the boolit measures 0.305". Will this be too big of a diameter to put down a bore that is 0.300"-0.302"...

This boolit sort of becomes a "bore rider" but is much bigger than the bore...

I'm wondering if the 0.004" over bore will be too much and cause excess pressure, even with super light loads...

Thanks...BCB

[Scharfschuetze]

That .305" bore riding diameter might be a tight fit, but I thought that your groove diameter was .303" from previous posts. Barrels are surprisingly good at swaging down boolits that are slightly oversize if they chamber OK. Many loaders who size their boolits to the throat diameter of their chamber are doing this all the time. Many old timers from my youth all shot their boolits unsized saying the rifle did a better job sizing than anything else. There's probably some truth to what those old timers were saying.

Just start your load a little lighter than usual to compensate for the increased friction and lead displacement and then work up. You'll be good to go. That is what I was alluding to in my first post by suggesting a 314299 Lyman design.

Good luck! I hope that you can finally get this barrel to shoot well.

[BCB]

That .305" bore riding diameter might be a tight fit, but I thought that your groove diameter was .303" from previous posts. Barrels are surprisingly good at swaging down boolits that are slightly oversize if they chamber OK. Many loaders who size their boolits to the throat diameter of their chamber are doing this all the time. Many old timers from my youth all shot their boolits unsized saying the rifle did a better job sizing than anything else. There's probably some truth to what those old timers were saying.

Just start your load a little lighter than usual to compensate for the increased friction and lead displacement and then work up. You'll be good to go. That is what I was alluding to in my first post by suggesting a 314299 Lyman design.

Good luck! I hope that you can finally get this barrel to shoot well.

I may have been a bit shaky when typing the bore diameter! It is closer to 0.302". It is difficult to measure the bore diameter on a slugged boolit as the the blades on my calipers are nearly the same width as the imprint on the boolit. Still the barrel is large as boolit riders for the 0.308" caliber simple fall into the muzzle...

The 311299 that I am trying now, does not...

Thanks...BCB

[BCB]

As indicated in my post #28, I pretty much am sure this Encore 308 Winchester barrel will not shoot cast boolits—period…

So, the past week I have been messing with jacketed bullets—150 SST and 165 SST. Benchmark and IMR-8208 powders—no reason for either powder except they have worked well with my 6.8mm SPC Contender…

Posted a couple of groups I fired yesterday and today—just messing with the 2 powders and a middle-weight charge. NO fine tuning yet. The 3 group picture is only at 50 yards—getting on paper basically. The pic showing 2 groups is at 100 yards—both a tad less than an inch. Don't even know if I will try to fine tune it at all...

It is obvious from the groups this Encore barrel will shoot jacketed bullets…

I was rattling my groundhog-sized silhouette at 250 yards with no problems at all. And that was having Quick Load and Quick Target doing all the work for me…

Oh well, the barrel might be good to trade for another Encore barrel or sell outright as I am considering a custom barrel in 30-40 Krag for an upcoming project—probably next spring. I have acquired a fair quantity of once-fired 30-40 Krag brass so I am ready to give it a try…

And so it goes…

Good-luck…BCB

[JohnH]

Yep, that act's like a couple Encore barrels I have and one I let go to someone else. Jecketed? Great. Cast? Not so good don't even describe it. Yet two weeks ago I bought an RCBS 95 grain mold to give my 243 Pro Hunter barrel a test run and it shot fine groups for a first time run. I loaded 50 rounds with 8.5 grains of Red Dot. Fired one twenty round group and a second thirty round group. At 50 yards about 70% of the shots fired were in a hole that could be covered with a quarter, the remaining 30% opened the groups to between one and a half and two inches. The flyers were vertically strung. I going to load up another 50 with something slower. This barrel is carbon steel (blued) the barrels I've had no luck with are stainless. Shouldn't make any difference but I'm beginning to become superstitious. My Contender barrels are all blue, a 357 a 44 Mag and a 30 Herrett. All throw cast better than I can hold