weight VS volume (again?)

[aephilli822]

So, if I have black powder, I can just weigh it out and use it, right?
But if I have Pyrodex or other substitute, I use the amount that is the same volume as the correct weight of black?

So, since I don't have a volume measure for black powder, I'm gonna weigh 25 grains (on powder scale, 437.5 grains per ounce) of black powder and find which Lee powder scoop it fits and use that scoop to measure "25 grains equivalent by volume" of Pyrodex?
(25 grains being the starting load for an 1858 Remington Army 44 with round ball?)

clear as mud[smilie=l:

[dondiego]

Should work. You probably can't get enough Pyrodex in the cylinder to overpressure and still seat the ball, but that is not necessarily true in a rifle. Powder measures are pretty inexpensive though.

[pietro]

.

YMMV, but FWIW, I've been shooting/hunting with muzzleloading BP guns (from .32's up to & including .54's) since the late 1960's, and have yet to weigh a charge. :popcorn:


.

[Omnivore]

if I have black powder, I can just weigh it out and use it, right?
But if I have Pyrodex or other substitute, I use the amount that is the same volume as the correct weight of black?

If you want be sure of your charges, and to be able to communicate load data to other people and have a solid point of reference, then yes. That is exactly how it works. Some people never weigh a charge because close enough is close enough, but the principle stays the same; a grain is a unit of weight only, and so 30 grains of black powder always weighs 30 grains, AND substitute powders are made to replace black powder by volume rather than by weight.

The REASON behind this is simplicity itself and once you understand the REASON you'll never be confused again; you can use the same field measure for both black powder and black powder substitutes even though they have very different densities. That's it.

Smokeless powder on the other hand is always verified by weight, but it's used in loading cartridges. However, unlike smokeless powder, we often carry bulk powder into the field for muzzleloading and it would be stupid to carry a set of scales into the field. Further, it would be problematic to have to carry one set of field measures for BP and a different set of field measures for BP substitutes. THAT is why BP subs have been concieved, designed and tweaked so as to use the same field measures as for black powder. It keeps it all very simple.

That is the entire story and to try to add to it is only to complicate it and cause more people to keep asking this same, old, simple question.

[aephilli822]

Well, nevermind. :oops:
What was given to me years ago as "black powder" seems to be Pyrodex. :-(
2.5 cc lee scoop weighs ~ 27 grains for both Pyrodex RS and what I was told is "black powder"

[Wayne Smith]

Post a location. Somebody with BP may be close enough to help.

[flyingmonkey35]

12 bucks will fix this easy.

Traditions Performance Firearms Muzzleloader Adjustable Powder Measure, Swivel Spout, 5 to 120 grains (brass) https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000PW9HO8/ref=cm_sw_r_other_awd_D.O.wbWNTPR6M

Please please buy one. You can never go wrong with using the correct tool for the job.

[mooman76]

You can use empty brass casings for a volume powder measure.

45-70 75gr
30.06 70gr
30-30 or 45 colt 42gr
45aco 28gr
38 spc. 24gr
30 carbine 20gr

[FrontierMuzzleloading]

you really need to get a powder measure.

Luckily I had both powders on hand. Pyrodex P and Pyrdoex RS-Select.

Volume/Weight

RS-Select - Volume/Weight
70=49
80=56.5
90=63
100=70
110=78

Pyrodex P: Volume/Weight
60=45
70=54.2
80=63.4
90=71
100=77.4
110=88

[Idz]

The conversion seems to be 1 grain volume = volume of 1 grain weight of water. The density of water is 1.0 at 68 degrees F (officially 0.998 for those really picky folks), the bulk density of loose black powder is close to 1 so those who weigh charges are almost right. You're probably ok unless you insist on running at the edge of the cliff. The problem is you can pack the powder to a higher density and how well it packs varies with grain size, manufacturer, lot number, etc. The volume measure is a matter of historical convenience but works well enough.

[aephilli822]

Post a location. Somebody with BP may be close enough to help.
I have a friend nearby that is experienced, but just trying to mess with this "in between and around" other things

[aephilli822]

12 bucks will fix this easy.

Traditions Performance Firearms Muzzleloader Adjustable Powder Measure, Swivel Spout, 5 to 120 grains (brass) https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000PW9HO8/ref=cm_sw_r_other_awd_D.O.wbWNTPR6M

Please please buy one. You can never go wrong with using the correct tool for the job.
I prolly have one I bought years ago, just not where I know which box it got packed in years ago last time I messed with this stuff.

[aephilli822]

You can use empty brass casings for a volume powder measure.

45-70 75gr
30.06 70gr
30-30 or 45 colt 42gr
45aco 28gr
38 spc. 24gr
30 carbine 20gr




you really need to get a powder measure.

Luckily I had both powders on hand. Pyrodex P and Pyrdoex RS-Select.

Volume/Weight

RS-Select - Volume/Weight
70=49
80=56.5
90=63
100=70
110=78

Pyrodex P: Volume/Weight
60=45
70=54.2
80=63.4
90=71
100=77.4
110=88

Thanks, this is helpful.
Looked at my lee dipper kit and it has figures for Pyrodex and black powder, but I think it shows actual weights, so with that and these figures, I should at least be safe

[mooman76]

I have always found Lees charts to be slightly over actual weights or at least for smokeless powders. I believe this is to give a safety margin for those not using a scale but that is just a educated guess on my part.

[aephilli822]

The conversion seems to be 1 grain volume = volume of 1 grain weight of water. The density of water is 1.0 at 68 degrees F (officially 0.998 for those really picky folks), the bulk density of loose black powder is close to 1 so those who weigh charges are almost right. You're probably ok unless you insist on running at the edge of the cliff. The problem is you can pack the powder to a higher density and how well it packs varies with grain size, manufacturer, lot number, etc. The volume measure is a matter of historical convenience but works well enough.
So I can weigh the amount of water in a scoop, that should give me a third point of reference.

[pietro]

Thanks, this is helpful.
Looked at my lee dipper kit and it has figures for Pyrodex and black powder, but I think it shows actual weights, so with that and these figures, I should at least be safe


By definition, Lee (and other) powder dippers are volumetric measures, not weight measures.


.

[Sharpsman]

What's really simple is to become smart....and just use BLACKPOWDER! And i dont need to hear BS about its too hard to find in my area! It can be delivered to your front door!!

[aephilli822]

http://www.curtrich.com/BPConversionSheet.htm

and more info/confusion

[rfd]

keep traditional muzzleloaders simple and very effective - use real black powder, volume throw all charges and leave weighing charges for the bpcr rifles.

[aephilli822]

keep traditional muzzleloaders simple and very effective - use real black powder, volume throw all charges and leave weighing charges for the bpcr rifles.
I guess what would have been a simpler original question is, "Until I can find an actual black powder measure, what is an equivalent volume measure in cubic centimeters (or 45 ACP or 357 Mag cases)"
[answered close enough in above information that I feel safe until I can get an "official" measure]

[rfd]

an adjustable brass bp powder charger is indispensable for me to find the sweet spot charge for any ml, then i'll create a horn static charger ...

http://i.imgur.com/yNBE9R9.jpg

[aephilli822]

blatantly stolen from another forum


For those without a calibrated powder measure, here's a list of cartridge case capacities to use for measuring powder.

Cartridge Grains
.22 LR = 5
.320 ACP = 7
.380 ACP = 10
.30 cal Carbine = 20
.38 Special = 23
.357 Mag = 27
.45 Auto = 26
.44 Colt = 35
.45 Colt = 41
.38-40 = 40
.30-30 = 42
.30-06 = 70
.45-70 = 83

9mm = 13.3
40 S&W = 19.3

and

.44 Magnum case holds just about 40 grains of volume.

[rfd]

good adjustable bp measures are relatively cheap ...

http://possibleshop.com/s-s-powder-measure.html

[aephilli822]

The conversion seems to be 1 grain volume = volume of 1 grain weight of water. The density of water is 1.0 at 68 degrees F (officially 0.998 for those really picky folks), the bulk density of loose black powder is close to 1 so those who weigh charges are almost right. You're probably ok unless you insist on running at the edge of the cliff. The problem is you can pack the powder to a higher density and how well it packs varies with grain size, manufacturer, lot number, etc. The volume measure is a matter of historical convenience but works well enough.
Case name / H2O capacity.

14 Hornet 12
.17 Hornet 14
.17 Rem 27
.204 Ruger 33
.22 Hornet 14
.22 K-Hornet 15
.218 Bee 18
.22 Rem Jet 18
.221 Rem 21
.222 Rem 27
.223 Rem 31
.222 Rem Mag 32
5.6x50R 34
.219 Zipper 34
.225 Win 41
.22-250 Rem 43
.220 Swift 48
.223 WSSM 53
.22-06 65
.22-15 Stevens 17
.22 Sav 35
6x47 33
6x52R Bret. 36
6x70R 39
.243 Win 54
6 Rem 55
.240 Wea Mag 65
6x62R 67
.236 USN 51
.240 Fl. N.E. 58
.25-20 WCF 19
.256 Win 22
.25-21 Stevens 25
.25-25 Stevens 29
.25-36 Marlin 37
.25-35 WCF 37
.25 Rem 42
.250 Sav 46
.257 Roberts 56
.25-06 Rem 66
.257 Wea Mag 84
6.5x70R 39
6.5 Jap. 48
6.5x52 Carcano 49
6.5x53R 49
6.5x54 M-S(.256) 50
.260 Rem 53
6.5x55 57
6.5x57(R) 58
6.5 Rem Mag 68
.264 Win Mag 82
.270 REN 16
.270 Win 68
.270 Wea 83
.28-30 Stevens 37
7-30 Waters 45
7x72R 54
7-08 Rem 56
7x57(R) Mauser 59
.284 Win 66
.280 Rem 67
7x65R 68
7 WSM 81
7 Rem Mag 84
.30 Carbine 21
.30-357 AeT 25
.30-30 45
.30 Rem 46
.303 Sav 48
.300 Sav 52
.307 Win 54
7.62 NATO 54
.308 Win 56
.30 Fl.NE Purdey 58
.30-40 U.S. 58
.30-06 U.S. 69
.300 H&H 86
.300 Win Mag 89
.30 Fl. H&H 90
.300 Wea Mag 99
.30-378 130
7.62x54R 64
.303 Brit 57
.375/303 W-R 62
.32-20 WCF 22
7.65 Mauser 58
8x72R 59
.32-40 Ballard 41
8x50R Lebel 66
8x57(R) Mauser 62
8-06 70
8 Rem Mag 98
.318 W-R 69
.333 Jeffery 86
.33 WCF 63
.338-06 70
.338 Win Mag 86
.340 Wea Mag 98
.338-378 132
.348 Win 75
9x57(R) Mauser 62
.357 Mag 27
.357 Max 34
.357/44 B&D 35
.400/350 Rigby 78
.350 ME Guide 2 49
.35 Rem 51
.356 Win 57
.358 Win 57
.35 WCF 69
.35 Whelen 71
.35 Greevy 72
.350 Rem Mag 73
.358 Norma Mag 88
9.3x57 Mauser 64
9.3x54R Finn. 65
9.3x72R 67
9.3x62 77
9.3x74R 82
.360 No.2 NE 111
.375 Win 49
.38-56 Win 62
.375 2½ N.E. 67
.375-06 73
.375 H&H 95
.375 Fl. Mag 97
.375 Ruger 100
.369 N.E. 102
.378 Wea Mag 136
.38-55 Ballard 52
.38-72 Win 74
.38-40 WCF 40
.400 Whelen 75
.405 Win 78
.400 Jeffery 117
.450/400 NE 3¼ 123
.416 Taylor 92
.416 Rem Mag 107
.416 Rigby 130
.416 Wea Mag 134
.423 OKH 77
.404 Jeffery 113
.44-40 WCF 40
.44 Spl 34
.44 Rem Mag 39
.444 Marlin 69
.45 Colt 42
.454 Casull 47
.45-70 U.S. 79
.450 Marlin 74
.45-90 2.4" 90
.458 Win Mag 94
.458 Lott 108
.450 3¼ N.E. 129
.460 Wea Mag 140
.465 N.E. 144
.470 N.E. 146
.475 3¼ N.E. 137
.50-110 109
.50 BMG 293

[aephilli822]

http://castpics.net/dpl/index.php/the-archives/equipment-manuals/141-lee-dippers-capacity-chart

this is what I was after

[rfd]

honestly, i see all of those cartridge cases, fixed dippers and whatnot as a whole buncha needless work and effort. a cheap adjustable 10 to 100 grain volume measure is all that's needed, $15 or less. good for any trad ml ya got, or that comes yer way.

[aephilli822]

honestly, i see all of those cartridge cases, fixed dippers and whatnot as a whole buncha needless work and effort. a cheap adjustable 10 to 100 grain volume measure is all that's needed, $15 or less. good for any trad ml ya got, or that comes yer way.
Just a way to get by (safely) until I order or find one.

many years ago (pre innerwebs) when I first got an 1858 Cabela's revolver, I found a load listed somewhere and since Pyrodex is a replacement, I weighed out that amount of Pyrodex. Later I learned about the volume thing. I knew that first cylinderfull felt pretty stout.....[smilie=l:

[Fly]

OK let me throw my 2 cents here. In theory 30 grains of BP should weigh 30 grains in weight. In the real world
that is not always the case. Reason density of powder of one to another. It may be very slight but it can differ.
I really do not think it makes enough difference to worry about.

I have weighed Swizz against Goex. Swiss is a little heavier. Why? I think it is because they polish there powder
which takes off the broken edges off the grains when ground. It is very slight. When we fill a powder measure we
can be off from load to load to several grains. Adjustable powder measures can very also. That's why when we work up a load
for a given gun say 50 grains, we may find 55 grain does not change things much if at all.

Fly