50 Alaskan vs 45-70 Gentlemenly Discussion

[Just Duke]

Well in lieu of my big boo boo...
What is the difference hunting wise between the 50 Alaskan and the 45-70?
I am using a 480 grain in my 45-70's and would it even be worth while to have one of my Winchester 1886 rifle converted to shoot 50 Alaskan and shoot a 500 grain bullet. <shiver contemporary catridge in a period gun shiver>




MY BIG BOO BOO

CRAP! CRAP! CRAP!

I just got off the phone with Doug Turnball and he was the nicest guy to talk to. He told me unless I was either shooting 300 grain bullets out of the gun that the conversion would not work unless some other if-ey mods were made. In other words a 500 grain bullet will not work in the gun. He did say I could have it converted to 50-110 and shoot 50 Alaskan in it which is not a period cartridge.
Well ....I got a backup gun for my backup gun. <sad face>
:groner: :groner: :groner:

Guess I'm done :[smilie=b:[smilie=b:[smilie=b:


LINK TO MY BIG BOO BOO
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?p=333981&posted=1#post333981









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[leftiye]

There's something wrong with my mind. I'm NOT a .50 caliber fan. My perspective is way different than a lot of the big bore lovers here. I know you can shoot a ways with the 50 cal (certainly would agree to that with the 50BMG), and if the bullet (?) or boolit is heavy enugh it might range a little. But in my world, even with jacketed bullets, the .45-70 already has range problems. So I'm partial to it over something with even worse ranging problems. I'm partial to a .375, or .400 even better.

As per Lloyd smale's tests, unless you use only a hard boolit, penetration (with hollow points) suffers to the place that you may not get a vital wound out of a good shot. More velocity only tears up more food.

[dubber123]

I'd have it done, just for the fact I think a .50 lever would be neat. I wouldn't be shooting any 300 grainers in it though, it just doesn't seem right. Big boolits for big bores.

I'm guessing you won't be trying any 600 yd shots at elk with an iron sight lever anyways, so a cool, useable, 200 meter gun in a neat caliber would be fine with me.

[jhrosier]

I believe that the general theory is that you can shoot a larger diameter projectile, weights being equal, at either higher velocity with the same pressures or the same velocity with lower pressures.
It seems like the difference is not going to be great in either direction, with these two calibers, given that you are limited to light boolits in the .50.

I think that I would look into a heavy boolit with a large meplat in the 45-70. (But then there aren't many dangerous critters in Massachusetts, except politicians, and we're not supposed to be shooting them anyway.;) )

Jack

[Just Duke]

For me the only bullet that I would shoot in the 50 Alaskan would be 500 to 520 grains and no more. The 45-70 contender would be the 480 that I cast or 500 for some of the other guys.
Yes I would not shoot or have need myself for a 300 grain bullet in a Grizzly rich environent. ;)

[leftiye]

Rosier

(But then there aren't many dangerous critters in Massachusetts, except politicians, and we're not supposed to be shooting them anyway. )

The question Is - Isn't it them there Politicians telling you this? (that you shouldn't shoot them)

Wasn't the .45 cal. the standard for the African big 5 since about a hunnert years ago?

[JohnH]

I can't imagine there is enough difference between the two which would make any difference whatsoever. Dead is dead is dead is dead. How dead can ya make something? No matter how ya add it up, blood loss or suffocation are the killers. You can do it with big slow slugs, you can do it with tough liitle hyper velocity wonder pills, but in the end, the job is the same.... to enter vital areas, disrupt tissue and create blood loss and shut down the air supply. That is why gut shots are ineffective, they do not crate massive blood loss, nor suffocation.

I don't think the question of difference between a 45 and a 50 addresses the real question we hunters want answered, which is how FAST can we make something die. Shoot a ground hog with a 22 Long Rifle, then shoot one with a 223 and the difference we are speaking to becomes apparent. I doubt there is anymore "killing effect" difference between a 45-70 and a 50 Alaskan on deer, elk or bears than there is between a 222 Remington and a 223 Remington on prairie dogs, crows or ground hogs.

One has to remember that in the blackpowder cartridge days, 1300-1600 fps was that practical limit of velocity. The 45-90 was actually an express cartridge in it's original form, driving 300 grainers to 1600 fps. The idea was to use a lighter bullet at higher volocity to get a flatter trajectory, exactly the opposite way we tend to think of these cartridges, which is the bigger the cartridge the heavier the bullet we want to use. (We learned it on safari from the English :) )
Think of this also, you say you are using 480 grainers in your 45-70. In the 50 Alaskan you want to use 520's. In the real world of broken bones and torn, bleeding flesh, do we really believe that once we are throwing 1 1/8 ounce bullets that 1 1/4 ouncers are going to be more effective?

Just my take on this, perhaps it will help. I hope so. What is most important is this.... Which makes ya happy? Finding out might be more fun than knowing ;)

[runfiverun]

just shoot the 5-600 grainers in the 45-70, ya got it and there are plenty of molds.

[Lloyd Smale]

the 50 ak can push 480 grain bullets at 2000fps and your not going to do that in a 4570 at least not with sane pressures. Where the 50ak really shines is with 480-500s at about 16-1700fps. It will do it idleling where your really pushing a 4570 to do it and you get a bigger bullet that at 500 grains has about the same sectional density as a 405 4570 bullet so it will penetrate as well and hit harder. Believe me its a step up in power from a 4570 if you doubt it try 480s at 2000 fps. Thats 458 mag ballistics out of a levergun. You guys kind of know my thoughts on pushing cast bullets so fast that its detrimental but if you really want to see a lever gun talk loads some of kelly shlepps brass punch bullets up to the gills in a 50ak and you really do have a dangerous game gun that will effeciently hunt any animal in the world.

[leftiye]

Dern, he almost makes me like it. Then I think about my shoulder, my back, my teeth, my cheekbone ...........

[Lloyd Smale]

loaded up to the limts then do kick like a mule leftiye. i shot a couple hundred rounds out of ALs gun and John linebaughs gun for an article Al was writing. He had some medical problems that wouldnt let him shoot it himself and i came away with a headache that lasted 2 days. But just for fun he through in some 416 weatherby testing that day too. he actually had a mercury recoil reducer put in his at first but pulled it because it effected the balance of the gun. I will tell you though to at least have a limbsaver or decellerator pad put on one if your going to build it. there no place for a curved butplate!!

[Just Duke]

The 50AK would be tolerable with a 500 grainer at 1300 to 1400 fps and I agree with Lloyd that curved butt plate would need to be replaced with a recoil pad of some sort especially if velocities exceed 1400 fps.. If I had one made I would consider it a 100 yard timber gun at least in my opinion.

[Bullshop]

You guys are making me feel like a pretty tough character. My 86 50 cal has the origonal cresent but it came with.
Them butts was designed for shootin off yer hind leggs, and for that they aint bad atol.
Now for shootin off a bench it can be brutal. Leaning into it puts the top right in the joint of my sholder and that does hurt.
These were huntin guns and if you are only takin benchrest shots when you hunt you will be quite limited in the number of shots you get.
Standin up and leanin on a tree or sumthin is no problem as long as your upper body has some give to it. Sittnig at a bench and leaning into the rifle there aint much give there.
I dont know, maybe I am just extraordinarilly tough, ya think so? Naw, that cant be it, extraordinarilly dumb ud be more closer to the truth.
Blessings
BIC/BS

[45 2.1]

The original 50 Alaskan was a 50 caliber machine gun barrel cut to fit a 1886 Winchester action because the man was grizzly hunting in thickets and didn't think the 4570 was enough gun at toenail range. He cut 50 BMG slugs off and used the rear part to load. This is a dangerous game rifle.

[Just Duke]

1886 Winchester action because the man was grizzly hunting in thickets and didn't think the 4570 was enough gun at toenail range.This is a dangerous game rifle.


That was my original intention too. Thanks for the info. :)

[Bullshop]

Duke
You asked somewhere if you could use 50/70 dies to load 50/110 or 50 AK. I dont remember where it was you asked but I didnt get to it and these thing roll along so fast now I cant keep up.
Anyway yes you can, BUT. The but in this is that the 50/70 or 50/90 case web is larger in diameter than the 50/110 or 50 AK. The 50/70 die will size well enough to hold boolits and crimp but will not do and sizing at the area in front of the wab.
If they are fired in a real sloppy chamber that allows the brass to bulg on one side unless cases are indexed they may rechamber with some dificulty.
If your chamber is good, read round, ther should be no problem.
BIC/BS

[Bullshop]

I used an aircraft barrel for one of the conversions on a siamese mauser, that was a no no. Two problems, chrome lined bore, and too much twist.
That chrome is murder on reamers and the twist is for very long jacketed bullets, not boolit friendly.
BIC/BS

[Just Duke]

I would go for the 50 AK dies on that note. Wonder if Lee makes some el-cheapo ones.
What do you guys think about the 50 AK in a Winchester1886? Is that to modern?
Sacreligous/blastfamous so to speak?:holysheep

[Bullshop]

Look at the barrel stamping on an old sharps and you wont see any cartridge designation other than caliber and case length.
Just have the chamber cut to whatever length you want and stamp it with the period correct cal/length just the way they used to. Whats wrong with that?
BIC/BS

[Just Duke]

OK, What is 50 AK Bullshop?
50-100?
TIA

[GabbyM]

A 50/90 Sharps has a 2.5" long case.

[Lloyd Smale]

personal i think its the perfect gun to build one on. Only problem i will have is cutting mine up as its like new and a sweet gun as is.
I would go for the 50 AK dies on that note. Wonder if Lee makes some el-cheapo ones.
What do you guys think about the 50 AK in a Winchester1886? Is that to modern?
Sacreligous/blastfamous so to speak?:holysheep

[Bullshop]

The period correct stamping would be 2 2/10", or possibly 2 1/5" I have not seen any with a decimal stamping as in 2.2"
Blessings
BIC/BS

[looseprojectile]

unnesessary. The 450 Alaskan has over five thousand pounds of muzzle smash.
If that won't stop it with the right bullet, I will fall back and use the flame thrower.
RCBS 450 Alaskan dies are somewhere around $280.00, gawd where will it end.

I traded for a 450 Alaskan rifle in the Siamese pursuasion recently and borrowed the dies and can not afford to buy bullets so will have to cast for it. The project is on a back burner simmering.
Anyone know how to make a good mould out of a Lee 457-405. It has never shot well in anything I have tried it in. Probably need at least a gas check mould anyway. A Ranch Dog .45 rifle mould may be in my future.
To sum it up, in my opinion, if you have a nice '86' in 45 70 or '71' Winchester you got enough gun. :holysheep
Life is good

[Lloyd Smale]

I guess to me thats like saying the 44 mag is enough handgun and the 454 475 and 500s arent needed. Sure a 44 will kill anything the others will but the bigger guns definately hit harder. FT lbs of energy to me is a waste of mathematics. A 223 has the ft lbs a 3030 has but at under a 100 yards i know which one id choose. Its just to easy especially with a big bore to increase velocity and get some impressive ft lb numbers and think you have a more effeicent gun when all youve actually done is push a cast bullet so fast that i doesnt perform as well as it would slowed down. Even the 50 ak is capable of pushing bullets fast enough to make them fail. I watched my buddy shoot a 500 lb redstag with a 480 lfn that i casted at 2000 fps. It was cast out of 5050 ww/lnyo and deformed on the near side shoulder and ended up under the skin on the far side. Now the animal died but i still consider that failure. That same bullet out of a 500 linebaugh has showed us to be capable of lenghtwize penetration through a 1000 lb buffalo at 1200 fps. If i was after something dangerous id take the 50 ak hands down over the 450 ak. The 4570 will push the ideal 45 bullet at ideal speeds and the extra speed a ak has doesnt do much. The 50 ak will push heavier bullets with simualar sectional densitys at the same speed using bullets with bigger metplats. sure you can load the 4570 and 450 with wfns and have simular metplats but the 50ak will shoot an lfn with just as big of a metplat that has a better sectional density. Nothing wrong with the 450 ak. Id feel well armed with one for any hunting. But its not a 50 ak and the 50 ak is a better cast bullet gun.
unnesessary. The 450 Alaskan has over five thousand pounds of muzzle smash.
If that won't stop it with the right bullet, I will fall back and use the flame thrower.
RCBS 450 Alaskan dies are somewhere around $280.00, gawd where will it end.

I traded for a 450 Alaskan rifle in the Siamese pursuasion recently and borrowed the dies and can not afford to buy bullets so will have to cast for it. The project is on a back burner simmering.
Anyone know how to make a good mould out of a Lee 457-405. It has never shot well in anything I have tried it in. Probably need at least a gas check mould anyway. A Ranch Dog .45 rifle mould may be in my future.
To sum it up, in my opinion, if you have a nice '86' in 45 70 or '71' Winchester you got enough gun. :holysheep
Life is good

[HORNET]

You might be able to put a .475 JDJ#2 on a Marlin 1895..as a compromise. Ouch!

[Just Duke]

After talking to Bullshop on the phone a few weeks ago I am pretty conviced the the 50 cal is better at stopping large dangeous animals. He told me that he has and seen Moose shot with 338 Magnuns several times and act like nothng happened. I myself have witnessed this on numeous hunting videos. He also said that he shot mooose with his 50-110, (which he shoots a bit shorter catridge and coencidently is able to feed a larger bullet) and they drop on the first round. Bullshop did state that we feel he is like some kind of Superman of some sort, Well,... Bullshop lives in Alaska and lives a sustanance life style like we all dream of or at least I do. This man hunts to eat and grows and cans all his own food for a large family and is very humble about it. So I feel that he is a pretty good authority on this subject. I am sure others here are well versed but I have not yet had the privilege of phone conversation with them. ;)
He also makes sells cast bullets.

Here's the thing.
What I do not tell myself is this catridge or that cartrige is "GOOD ENOUGH" and most ask why.
Lets take the two major items in question.
Protection from your quarry especially if they are capable of ending your life in a grotesque painful manner.
And, And .......Just out of respect for the animal, A CLEAN HUMANE KILL.

That was a great write Lloyd and you I see eye see on things. Way Cool! :)



Hey guys, we all have gravitated to this forum because we all feel that a big cast bullet is better for hunting and shooting. Economical too! ;) The only thing I shoot jacketed is 223 and 308 in semi-autos.

[leftiye]

I think I'll change my signature line to "Devil's Advocate". There's no doubt in any of our minds that the 50 AK is mucho gun. My thrust here is, there are many cartridges used for all types of game that are "More gun" than something else is and the "something else is a reliable killer on that game. The 44 vs 50 cal revolters being a good example on deer. The real question isn't what is more gun, it is not if the caliber is "good enough" it is what works with a near 100% effectiveness when you do your part and hit 'em where it matters. I'm not saying the 45-70 is a better gun for brownies at spitting range, What I'm saying is - is it reliable or not? These bigger bores are a relatively new event in my world, It was previously thought a 30-06 would kill anything, and it had been proven. And .45s were for Elephants. Today's 45-70 loads go clear to 50,000 psi.!

[Lloyd Smale]

leftiye you are right dead is dead and i dont think anyone here is saying you need to use a 500 linebaugh to hunt deer. I think the thoughts here are going toward hunting something really large that can hurt you where theres a difference in whether an animal drops on the spot, takes one leap or takes three leaps and is on top of you. theres never to much gun for something like that. In those circumstances i want the biggest gun i can accurately shoot. But in the same aspect using a 500 linebaugh with cast bullets on deer is far from rediculous. What your getting is a power level equal to a factory 4570 and i dont see to many people that claim that that is a big overkill and its not like they blow up a deer. Ive shot deer with 475s and 500s and they do much less damage to meat then a 243. Lots of elephant have been killed with 757s and 762x39s to but i dont think to many people are going to risk a once in a lifetime hunt on using one. Its allways better to error on the side of bigger rather then trying to prove something smaller will work. Personaly id feel well armed to go after a big bear with a 4570 using proper loads but if i had a 50 ak in the safe i know which id be toteing.

[Just Duke]

OK OK
I am sending one of the three 1886 Winchesters off to Doug Turnbull for the 50 AK conversion. I talked to him this mourning and looks like we are good to go.
He also has a way of converting the goofy safety so it will not bounce back by tac welding it. Some how.....

[Just Duke]

leftiye you are right dead is dead and i dont think anyone here is saying you need to use a 500 linebaugh to hunt deer. I think the thoughts here are going toward hunting something really large that can hurt you where theres a difference in whether an animal drops on the spot, takes one leap or takes three leaps and is on top of you. theres never to much gun for something like that. In those circumstances i want the biggest gun i can accurately shoot. But in the same aspect using a 500 linebaugh with cast bullets on deer is far from rediculous. What your getting is a power level equal to a factory 4570 and i dont see to many people that claim that that is a big overkill and its not like they blow up a deer. Ive shot deer with 475s and 500s and they do much less damage to meat then a 243. Lots of elephant have been killed with 757s and 762x39s to but i dont think to many people are going to risk a once in a lifetime hunt on using one. Its allways better to error on the side of bigger rather then trying to prove something smaller will work. Personaly id feel well armed to go after a big bear with a 4570 using proper loads but if i had a 50 ak in the safe i know which id be toteing.


Very well said as usual Lloyd. :)

[GabbyM]

You'll just have to get a shooting jacket with shell loops on the pocket. Those big cartridges will be to cool not to show off.

Since I went bear hunting back in the eighties I don't believe you can have to much gun for those critters. It's not the danger but the way they run 250 yards into the worst tangled brush and swamp around. When hit with a 30-06. A real man killer trying to haul them out to the road.

My brother in law had one run right through his blind after he shot it. Was still shaking when I met up with him an hour later. Then we couldn't find the bear until the next morning after daylight. It had crawled under a fallen tree. Shot dead on through both lungs with a 180 grain 30 cal. from fifty feet. All that hide then four inches of fat plus two ribs just about spend a 180gr soft point bullet.

Another of our party shot one from rear angle. Entered the second rib and lodged in opposite front shoulder. Cut a slice in it's heart. It ran 250 yards into the swamp in UP Michigan regardless. Another 30 caliber with soft point 180's. The wound channels through the lungs looks as if you'd pushed a 3/8" rod through. The entire side of it's rib cage was blue from shock impact. Not the right place to send your power. A hard cast lead boolit would have been going fast enough to shock it's heart when it went by. Then go on to break the front shoulder where his bullet stopped short. A 45-70 or 50 would have dropped it in it's tracks.

[Just Duke]

For the new guys. ;)

[Lloyd Smale]

I live and hunt in those up swamps. It brings up a point about large caliber cast shooting guns that I really like. They may not have the ft lbs of energy a mag rifle does but they put a big hole in and a big hole out and if you ever tracked an animal though a truely thick swamp you would appreciate it. I like my blood trails all over the trees not a piddle here and a piddle there. Especially when tracking a bear. Im not one that considers black bear dangerous game but a wounded one could easily get on you! Duke as to the cresent but plate ill agree with Bullshop. Ive shot John linebaughs 50 which is the same as my buddys. A 20 inch oct gun. Only differnce is johns is a cresent and the buddys has a limbsaver on it. On your feet there both simualar, off a bench the padded gun obviously is easier to shoot. 500s under 1600 are a piece of cake in either. Stand on it though and its a handfull. Loaded with punch bullets and stood on i cant imagine any animal in the world you wouldnt be well gunned for. Its even hard to penetration test loaded like that as most of the time it just blows out the back of the box and our box useually stops 475 linebaughs about half way through.
You'll just have to get a shooting jacket with shell loops on the pocket. Those big cartridges will be to cool not to show off.

Since I went bear hunting back in the eighties I don't believe you can have to much gun for those critters. It's not the danger but the way they run 250 yards into the worst tangled brush and swamp around. When hit with a 30-06. A real man killer trying to haul them out to the road.

My brother in law had one run right through his blind after he shot it. Was still shaking when I met up with him an hour later. Then we couldn't find the bear until the next morning after daylight. It had crawled under a fallen tree. Shot dead on through both lungs with a 180 grain 30 cal. from fifty feet. All that hide then four inches of fat plus two ribs just about spend a 180gr soft point bullet.

Another of our party shot one from rear angle. Entered the second rib and lodged in opposite front shoulder. Cut a slice in it's heart. It ran 250 yards into the swamp in UP Michigan regardless. Another 30 caliber with soft point 180's. The wound channels through the lungs looks as if you'd pushed a 3/8" rod through. The entire side of it's rib cage was blue from shock impact. Not the right place to send your power. A hard cast lead boolit would have been going fast enough to shock it's heart when it went by. Then go on to break the front shoulder where his bullet stopped short. A 45-70 or 50 would have dropped it in it's tracks.