IMR 4895 showing rust cloud after 20 years

[Andy]

I started reloading last year so I am not well-versed on how to tell if powder has gone bad, but want to relate my experience as I hope it will be helpful to others in one way or another.

Short version: 20 year old imr 4895 stored in heated, dry basements in a non-humid area is generating a rust-like cloud 20 years after the lot date, so please keep this in mind with your personal stocks of it.

Longer version:
I purchased 3 cans of the same lot of IMR 4895 from a local reloader last year and got around to using them this year. The first time I poured some into the hopper this month, I saw a cloud of red dust rise up from the hopper as I poured. I was concerned and took it to two experienced older reloaders that I know. Both observed the powder and saw the dust and advised me that the dust was not normal but was so minor that most people would not have even noticed it (you have to have it against a black background to see it), and that it would be okay to proceed with using it up quickly if I did so very cautiously and used it all up in the near term.

Accordingly I loaded and shot some .308 rounds with it using roughly 70% of the max loads listed for a .308 (figured 70% was a safe place to test given the similar 60% load instructions for H4895) and experienced normal velocity ranges and slightly poor extreme spread for the loads. For example, if you would expect 40 for ES, I got 60 or 70 but no worse.

In summary, I am grateful to have noticed that the powder was starting to go bad early where I can still use it up this year for practice loads, but disappointed that powder can go bad this quickly when stored in reasonably good conditions.

[afish4570]

I started reloading last year so I am not well-versed on how to tell if powder has gone bad, but want to relate my experience as I hope it will be helpful to others in one way or another.

Short version: 20 year old imr 4895 stored in heated, dry basements in a non-humid area is generating a rust-like cloud 20 years after the lot date, so please keep this in mind with your personal stocks of it.

Longer version:
I purchased 3 cans of the same lot of IMR 4895 from a local reloader last year and got around to using them this year. The first time I poured some into the hopper this month, I saw a cloud of red dust rise up from the hopper as I poured. I was concerned and took it to two experienced older reloaders that I know. Both observed the powder and saw the dust and advised me that the dust was not normal but was so minor that most people would not have even noticed it (you have to have it against a black background to see it), and that it would be okay to proceed with using it up quickly if I did so very cautiously and used it all up in the near term.

Accordingly I loaded and shot some .308 rounds with it using roughly 70% of the max loads listed for a .308 (figured 70% was a safe place to test given the similar 60% load instructions for H4895) and experienced normal velocity ranges and slightly poor extreme spread for the loads. For example, if you would expect 40 for ES, I got 60 or 70 but no worse.

In summary, I am grateful to have noticed that the powder was starting to go bad early where I can still use it up this year for practice loads, but disappointed that powder can go bad this quickly when stored in reasonably good conditions.

I lost a metal can and a half (1 1/2/#) last year too. It was bought in 1991 0r 92. Don't breathe the dust as it is toxic with nitreous type chemicals. Over 30 yrs. ago I bought an 8# H4895 in a cardboard container that was old but the price was too good to pass. After I had shot a pound or so and hadn't loaded anything using it in a year or two later....I discovered....Went in the closet to grab a flannel shirt and it disintegrated on the top of where the hangar held the shirt. Seems the cotton cloth exposed was destroyed by the fumes of the chemical breakdown.....lost only the cotton fabric clothes, the polyester were ok. All metal hangers exposed were badly rusted.
The canister of cardboard was crumbled & the tin top and bottom was rusted with the powder laying around the crumbled canister. I carefully swept it onto the dust pan and threw it on the flower bed. The rest I cleaned up with warm soapy water and discarded the towel rag....afish4570

[Iowa Fox]

The IMR's are good at this in my experience.

[Andy]

In my reading it sounds like 4895 is an often used powder for military loads, do they do something differently for the military ammo or just discard/sell it after 20 years? Do we need to be careful with certain dated surplus rounds as a result of this? Or is my experience uncommon and a result of anomalies in storage?

If this is normal for some powders I had thought it would be more common knowledge. All I had heard prior to this was stuff like "powder never goes bad" "never had it happen to me" etc. 20 years seems too short in the reloading world where we are increasingly in a stockpile mode and tend to batch test a powder.

[44man]

It is still storage related. Too warm or something, moisture, etc.
I have powders over 61 years old that are still good.

[Digital Dan]

Shooting '82 vintage 2400 from a cardboard container at present. Some cans of other powders a few years younger got transferred to empty plastic powder containers due to minor rusting on the interior, no other problems.

[farmerjim]

IMR 4350, 3031, 4064 and others, all in 1 lb metal cans. Bought in the mid 60's from Herters, stored in hot
(140 F) and cold, for the South, ( 25 F) locations all still good. Herco, Bullseye, Unique, in 4 lb metal kegs also still good. I don't know why some goes bad and others don't. It is not storage conditions in my case, because I don't think anything could be worse than a south Louisiana attic.

[SSGOldfart]

IMR 4350, 3031, 4064 and others, all in 1 lb metal cans. Bought in the mid 60's from Herters, stored in hot
(140 F) and cold, for the South, ( 25 F) locations all still good. Herco, Bullseye, Unique, in 4 lb metal kegs also still good. I don't know why some goes bad and others don't. It is not storage conditions in my case, because I don't think anything could be worse than a south Louisiana attic.
That is also true for East Texas

[farmerjim]

"That is also true for East Texas"

Some Texans tell me that the swamp stops at the border. Every time I go into South east Texas I find it as hot and humid as here.

[Walter Laich]

I carefully swept it onto the dust pan and threw it on the flower bed....afish4570

did you see any difference in the flowers? Heard old powder is a great though expensive fertilizer.

[DerekP Houston]

did you see any difference in the flowers? Heard old powder is a great though expensive fertilizer.

I believe this was true only for black powder, I don't think modern smokeless works as fertilizer.

[Shiloh]

How was it stored by the fellow you purchased from?? Any idea's??
20 years in good storage conditions isn't long at all.

Shiloh

[bdicki]

Works on the lawn, you can write messages on your neighbors lawn.

[Bruntson]

I started reloading last year so I am not well-versed on how to tell if powder has gone bad, but want to relate my experience as I hope it will be helpful to others in one way or another.

Short version: 20 year old imr 4895 stored in heated, dry basements in a non-humid area is generating a rust-like cloud 20 years after the lot date, so please keep this in mind with your personal stocks of it.




I find there is no such thing as a non humid part of a basement. Especially if it is advertised that way by a seller.
And I am reloading using a good #3 can of Alcan AL-8. Alcan went under somewhere around 1973.

[ravelode]

I had same thing with the exact same powder, it blew the extractor out of my model 70 in 30-06.:sad: Had to have the barrel set back due to bolt setback. Have you ever seen a belted primer less 30-06 case? :oops: The powder was less than 5yrs old, but was stored in a very humid area of my screen printing shop.

[HangFireW8]

Short version: 20 year old imr 4895 stored in heated, dry basements in a non-humid area is generating a rust-like cloud 20 years after the lot date, so please keep this in mind with your personal stocks of it.
...
In summary, I am grateful to have noticed that the powder was starting to go bad early where I can still use it up this year for practice loads, but disappointed that powder can go bad this quickly when stored in reasonably good conditions.

Here's something to be grateful for, if it's already generating a red cloud, do NOT use it at all. It is already past the point where it can be used safely.

[afish4570]

The IMR's are good at this in my experience.

My latest issue was 1 1/2# 4895 stored in 1# steel cans in a heated and A/C ed house. One can was sealed and the 2nd can half used. Seems not to have made any difference. I have a steel can IMR 4227 1/4 full dated & bought in 1968. Still good & same goes for a partial cardboard canister of Hodgdon Ball C2....Think the IMR products especially 4895 decompose the fastest. afish4570

[Andy]

Ravelode are you going by the stamped lot date on the can, or when you bought it? 5 years seems awfully short.

I gather they aren't sold in cans anymore (new) is that correct?

I know many people would dump a can at the first sign of the red dust, but I have also read many informative posts by people who seem careful and thoughtful, where they used powder at this early stage of decay(carefully) and had normal results.

For my part, I have shot about 150 loads with this so far and the velocities have been consistently where they should be, slightly larger extreme spread to a group, and never once anything unexplained. I'm not telling anyone else what to do, but given the information I am aware of at this time, I do not feel that it is a risky endeavor to use up the rest of this powder in moderate loads over the next 6 months. If someone has information to the contrary please let me know, I am not set in this decision.

I have three rifles that I can use this with that I need practice on so it won't be a chore to use it up fairly quickly.

[fatelk]

The only powder I've had go really bad was some old surplus 4895. I don't know how old it was or how it had been stored before I got it, but I noticed the brown dust first and decided to use it anyway. What I shot right away seemed fine as I recall, but then I was finding rotten ammo for years- stuff I loaded and forgot about. The unused powder went bad in a big way with a nasty toxic cloud when you opened the container. It would hardly even burn in a pile in the driveway. Any ammo I found that I had loaded with it was corroding from the inside out. Even the brass and bullets were corroded beyond use.

Maybe it would be fine to use it up quickly in mild loads, but for me personally any I would find like that I would just dump. It hurts to toss usable powder in this day and age and I would be tempted to use it, but it sure was a big hassle the last time I did that.

[Frank46]

i had a couple pounds of IMR 4064 go bad and when I opened one can the entire inside was rusted, then checked the other can and same thing. I've used IMR 4064 in the '06 but always got the two groups syndrome. Two or three shots clustered together and then the next two clustered slightly apart from the last group. Chronograph told the story as the first three shots had one group of feet per second and the next two slightly different. Frank

[44man]

Some of you fellas live in the great outdoor attic, can't see how you stand it?
My basement is pleasant all year staying in the 60's, humidity is 39% right now. No heat or air needed down here.
I am in the eastern pan handle of WV, near Harpers Ferry.

[762 shooter]

I had some imr 4895 rust cloud about 4 years ago. I emailed the IMR people and the guy said if it still smelled good (solvent) use it. It did and I have used it wth no issues.

762

[fa38]

If the inside of the can is rusty the red cloud may be mainly rust. I usually go by the smell of the powder.

I would take a old towel and make a tube out of it and pour the powder thru the tube into a glass quart jar. this would remove most if not all the red dust and may make a difference when shooting the powder.

This is the same way that you can remove the dust out of black powder for a cleaner burn and less fouling in your black powder rifles barrel.

[EDG]

Red dust is one thing.

If you get a purple brown haze coming out of the container it is nitric acid. Do not use it.

If you use it and leave the rounds stored you can get stress corrosion cracking of the brass.
The cracking will often be around the neck at the base of the bullet or around the neck at the shoulder junction.

[243winxb]

Metal cans rust and make dust. http://i338.photobucket.com/albums/n420/joe1944usa/th_IMR4895_20090928_1.jpg (http://s338.photobucket.com/user/joe1944usa/media/IMR4895_20090928_1.jpg.html) Had IMR 4198 do same, not as bad, still loading/shooting the 4198.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

I believe this was true only for black powder, I don't think modern smokeless works as fertilizer.

It's smokeless. I think the saltpeter in black powder would harm plant life - well, the plant life I wanted, if I know my luck, and harmless to weeds. Sulphur is a fertilizer in compounds, but I don't know about on its own, as I never heard that there was lush vegetation on natural sulphur deposits. It is a good fungicide and insecticide, but the applications I know of are above soil level.

Some smokeless powders, in some kinds of storage, can last extremely well. I would a lot sooner trust a cartridge from Paul Vieille's own hand, than have someone fire it at me. Where they do deteriorate, it can be from an unstable powder or bad storage, or perhaps most likely a combination of the two. There would usually be an acrid smell, and the gases produced are probably oxides of nitrogen. Heat is evolved, harmlessly except to nearby shirts in handloaders' canisters, as it has time to escape. But in military arsenals they monitor the temperature in the very large bins they use, as in confinement it can accelerate the deterioration and cause spontaneous combustion.

[leadman]

Andy, I would dispose of the powder.

The 60% rule is for Hodgdon H4895 powder only when using data produced by Hodgdon. This is stated on their website in the same spot as their reduced data. This came up also when a writer for Handloader used IMR powder with the Hodgdon reduced formula and published it. He was corrected by Hodgdon.

I know many have used IMR powder when reducing the data and have not had issues. The problem is when Hodgdon purchased IMR they found that the pressure testing equipment was in such bad condition as to be unreliable. IMR also published some data that had excessive loads of IMR4895. One of these was for the 30-30 that unfortunately a friend of mine jumped to the maximum load and ending up with the primer peening the firing pin hole in the H&R cast iron receiver almost closed. The cases also had .006" case expansion beyond a normal load. I posted a photo of the incorrect data at the time this happened on this site and a couple of others.

[dondiego]

Potassium nitrate contains potassium (K) and nitrates (N). 12, 12, 12 fertilizer is 12% potassium(K), 12% nitrogen (N), and 12% phosphorous (P). KNO3 is an excellent fertilizer!

[higgins]

Run a strong magnet through a pile of the powder in question. If the red dust sticks to the magnet, it's rust from the inside of the can. Of course the powder may have decomposed just enough to make the can rust. Several years ago, I was given a partial 8lb. can of IMR 4895 (not DuPont), along with a couple of 1lb. cans. I found the red dust inside the 8lb. can, but a flashlight showed that the metal near the seams of the can was rusted. I didn't think it was old enough to decompose, and I knew the man who gave it to me knew how to store powder, so I ran a magnet through it and decided it was rust particles, not decomposed powder dust.

[Andy]

Thanks for all of the responses guys, it is great to be able to get info from so many different sources.

I have a 35lb rare-earth magnet that I ran over the powder and it did not attract any of the dust.

The older gentleman who looked at it for me and smelled it a while said it smelled like ether and that to him was an indication that it was not bad yet, that solvent smells indicate still-ok and it would smell acidic when bad. This lines up with what 762shooter said regarding his previous communication with IMR, any conflicting thoughts on this?

I'm not going to use it for anywhere near max loads and have made myself a rule that every single ounce of it will be in the garden by the end of this hunting season, and all cases loaded with it will be kept separate and used or pulled and wet tumbled clean by that time as well.

I know the H4895 60% data is not directly transferrable to the IMR 4895 data but they are so similar and there are so many people having good luck with either one in this range that I feel like a 70-80% load of IMR 4895 isn't on anyone's radar as a risky load, correct me if I am wrong here.

Glad to be having this discussion, I am learning a lot and appreciate that we can all talk about this with a positive sharing of information even thought it is a potentially touchy subject.

[zomby woof]

It is the powder deteriorating. Do a search and you'll notice it's only IMR powder that does it. I had some that had the dust, not rust. I used it for cast loads and it did fine. YMMV

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?154152-Red-Decomposition-Dust

[dudel]

I have some powder that is close to 30 years old in those cardboard containers with metal tops and bottoms. Still good. I was told that if the powder had developed a vinegar odor, it had gone bad.

[Andy]

Today I re-evaluted my decision making process on this and decided that it, even if it still has some useful life left in it, I should not use a powder that has begun the process of going bad. Doing the math for the loads I would use, the two lbs I have left of it is only worth the equivalent of $20 in unique for plinking/fireforming loads and I guess at that minor cost I wasn't willing to continue doing something that some people more experienced than me find dangerous. So I went and poured it around the property in some areas that need fertilizer.

I appreciate all of the personal experiences and advice. This has somewhat turned me off from buying IMR powder as I agree with the other guy who posted that when you go read about this online, it is almost always IMR powder that it is happening to. Makes you wonder about surplus ammo that this might have been sitting in for decades. I wish it was more common knowledge that powder can go bad in reasonably normal storage circumstances after 20 years, that has been a surprising fact to many people I have discussed this with and was so to me personally.

[MtGun44]

Some lots of IMR powders, especially during WW2, were not properly washed during the
manufacturing and excessive acid was left in them. This causes premature breakdown.
Two batches can have very different shelf lives.

[David2011]

"That is also true for East Texas"

Some Texans tell me that the swamp stops at the border. Every time I go into South east Texas I find it as hot and humid as here.

Farmerjim,

Having lived in both Texas and Louisiana I can confirm that is not true. When you leave Texas the swamp continues well into Louisiana.:kidding:

David

[W.R.Buchanan]

I just used up the last of a can of IMR4895 that I bought in 1971. it has some red dust but I knew it was from the can.

The smell is the key and if it has a sweet smell it is going bad. I also have a can of 3031 and 4350 which are still good. all these cans were stored in the overhead of my garage for 25 years and didn't go bad. They were also tightly sealed so that may have had something to do with it.

You'll note that powder comes in plastic bottles now. They don't rust.

Randy

[Andy]

w.r. buchanan, I've been told recently on repeated occasions that the "solvent" or "sweet" smell is indicative of good powder, and that when powder goes bad it will have an ammonia or acrid smell, not a sweet smell. Can you tell us more on why you think this? Trying to sort out the different opinions on it.

[dondiego]

I expect to smell solvent or an alcohol smell in good powder. If you smell acetic acid smell (vinegar) or ammonia, or if it burns your nostrils, it is bad.