Should I switch from Bullseye to Unique?

[Possum Lickaa]

Here we go! I'm sure the bottom line is going to go something like this..."They are both good powders. Use what works for you", and I can appreciate that. However, I am looking for zero leading from my 200gr swc in a .451 bore 1911. I have shot the Silver Creek Bullets version of this boolit, and put it on top of 4gr Bullseye. I have also shot my cast COWW over the same 4gr Bullseye. I seem to have less leading with mine than theirs, but I am looking for ZERO, and I know it can be achieved.

I am thinking more velocity and a slower powder will help, but you guys know way more about this than I do (for now).

...so. am I on the right track here? Or should I just stick with my Bullseye and bump the charge up a bit at a time?

I ask because I have heard that the faster powders can sneak past the boolit before it hits the barrel and it will cut, where a slower powder (Unique) can eliminate this by giving the boolit a chance to get into the barrel before the pressure really starts to increase. I am not worried about how the powder "meters" because I don't have one of those fancy setups anyway. :p

Any and all input is appreciated!

[shoot-n-lead]

You can start by making your bullets .452...that will make an immediate difference...more than the powder change will. In my experience, BE is a good powder in 45acp...that I prefer over Unique.

Generally, 45acp is one of the easiest cartridges to keep from leading. And, you can always powder coat for very little cost.

[jcren]

I burn both in 45 with no leading using BLL or powder coat. I don't think the powder is the problem. Bullseye rules for economy and accuracy with light charges, unique is versatile and mellow with higher potential velocity. Factory hard cast was always a problem for me.

[Possum Lickaa]

You can start by making your bullets .452...that will make an immediate difference...more than the powder change will.

Right. Forgot to mention that my boolits are at .453... would I really need to size them down .001?

[jcren]

What does the barrel slug? Are you using a Lee fcd?

[Possum Lickaa]

No factory crimp die. and the barrel slugs at .453. My leading is minimal. Just a trace or a little more than a trace after 100 rounds. Nothing extreme. And I am using just enough crimp to take the bell out of the case mouth to allow smooth chambering.

[shoot-n-lead]

If the barrel slugs .453, and you have as little leading as you say...I would say that you are alright. You probably will not stop that leading with a powder change...might have to go to .454 and light crimp so as to not downsize. Depending on where the little bit of leading is, it could be your lube is running out.

[Possum Lickaa]

No factory crimp die. and the barrel slugs at .453. My leading is minimal. Just a trace or a little more than a trace after 100 rounds. Nothing extreme. And I am using just enough crimp to take the bell out of the case mouth to allow smooth chambering.

Wrong! Barrel slugs .451...my mistake! .453 would be a real problem!

[454PB]

I suggest you try 5 grains of Bullseye.

[Possum Lickaa]

I thought .45 ACP barrel was supposed to max out at .452? No?

[Possum Lickaa]

I burn both in 45 with no leading using BLL or powder coat. I don't think the powder is the problem. Bullseye rules for economy and accuracy with light charges, unique is versatile and mellow with higher potential velocity. Factory hard cast was always a problem for me.

Forgive my ignorance...what is BLL?

[jcren]

Bens liquid lube. Sorry, mix of about half alox and half Johnson's liquid floor wax. Great easy tumble lube. Now I pc everything with smokes powder and shake and bake. I don't remember the last time I cleaned a barrel more than one solvent patch.

[shoot-n-lead]

Are you sizing them .453?

[sigep1764]

BLL is a liquid lube, like alox, but supposed to be better from what ive read from others. And barrels can be all over the place, so you did the right thing by slugging it. If you can try some 454 sized boolits, do it to eliminate one variable.

[runfiverun]

Ben's liquid lube.
the recipe is a sticky in the lube section.

your primer pops the boolit out of the case [don't think so load a couple sans powder and pull the trigger]
and is igniting the powder at the same time.
so your building gas pressure and moving the boolit at the same time.
you could try to change where the peak pressure pushes on the boolit in this sequence.
or size to 452 and see what happens first.
btw there is a couple of steps between bullseye and unique [which is on the slow side for my guns] red-dot and green-dot are right in between the two and there are a couple of others like 231 and tite-group that would fit the bill.

[Possum Lickaa]

I am using the very similar 45/45/10. And probably a little heavy-handed with it. I'm still getting the hang of that. It takes a lot less than one,would think.

[jcren]

+1 for red dot. My current favorite economy 200 grain load is 4.2 grains. Clean and accurate.

[Possum Lickaa]

Ben's liquid lube.
the recipe is a sticky in the lube section.

your primer pops the boolit out of the case [don't think so load a couple sans powder and pull the trigger]
and is igniting the powder at the same time.
so your building gas pressure and moving the boolit at the same time.
you could try to change where the peak pressure pushes on the boolit in this sequence.
or size to 452 and see what happens first.
btw there is a couple of steps between bullseye and unique [which is on the slow side for my guns] red-dot and green-dot are right in between the two and there are a couple of others like 231 and tite-group that would fit the bill.

I guess I implied the the bullet would be in the barrel before ANY pressure started to build. You stated it better than me. I was speaking more about where the bullet would be at peak pressure. You said it better than I did

[Possum Lickaa]

Are you sizing them .453?

No. They just happen to drop there. .002 over bore. From what I read, they should be good, shouldn't they?

[Possum Lickaa]

If the barrel slugs .453, and you have as little leading as you say...I would say that you are alright. You probably will not stop that leading with a powder change...might have to go to .454 and light crimp so as to not downsize. Depending on where the little bit of leading is, it could be your lube is running out.

Really wish I would have caught that typo. Barrel slugs .451, leading occurs in the first 2" or so of a 5" barrel.

[jcren]

The .453 is fine. Have you tried pulling a bullet after full assembly? Early leading may indicate the bullet being deformed by the brass.

[Possum Lickaa]

I have not. I will do that. But not right now. I doubt the little lady would appreciate my breaking out the kinetic bullet puller at this hour.

[Possum Lickaa]

She's kinda funny like that!:-P

[jsizemore]

I had a little leading just forward of the throat on the right side of the lands. I changed my alloy from straight COWW + 2% tin to 50/50 + 2% tin. I use 4.2 gr of Red Dot/Promo which is slightly slower then Bullseye. The little leading went away.

[Bullwolf]

I'm a big fan of both Unique and Bullseye.

I prefer to use Bullseye with 200 grain or lighter 45 ACP boolits.
While I prefer Unique with heavier 230-250 grain 45 Cal boolits.

My feelings are that Unique burns better with the heavier boolits like 230 grain or heavier loads than my preferred mild bullseye light target loads.

Of course that's just my opinion, and if you don't mind a slightly more dirty load, there's nothing wrong with using a bit more Unique in those 200 grain loads.

Ben's Liquid Lube, or BLL is a modified thinned out Alox mixture. It's likely the top sticky in the lube section of the forum at the moment.

Ben's Liquid Lube (BLL) (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?259285-NEW-!-!-T-L-Liquid-Lube)

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?259285-NEW-!-!-T-L-Liquid-Lube

BLL is a simple 60/40 mix of 60% Alox or Lee Liquid Alox...
And 40% Johnson's (one step) no buff Liquid Floor Wax.

No heat, no muss, no fuss. Just shake it up, and apply a SMALL amount.

A few 45-45-10 lovers have also reported success using a 70/30 mix of 45-45-10, and Johnson's Liquid Floor wax.

70% 45-45-10
30% Johnson's Liquid Floor Wax

I suppose it's just a somewhat modified version of BLL.

I've been using the 70/30 mix with 45-45-10, & Johnson's Floor Wax some myself. I really like it so far.

Both are incredibly simple to mix and use. Check out the sticky!


- Bullwolf

[Lloyd Smale]

I would guess the zero bullets are water dropped and harder then your ww bullets. That said ive yet to see a 1911 that had a decent barrel that wouldn't shoot air cooled ww bullets with a good lube sized to 452 shot with 3.5-4.2 grains of bullseye without leading. If yours wont my guess is you just have a rough barrel. Keep in mind too that most all 1911s have shallow rifling and do better with well fit harder bullets. So its possible that you will do even better yet with accuracy and leading with water dropped or harder alloys. Most of my 1911s seem to do there very best at about 18bhn. I seriously doubt changing powders is going to help. But as usual I could be wrong. Id at least start by looking real closely at your barrel for rough spots or choke points and if you find them lap it or replace it and also don't fool with bullets smaller then 452. One last thing is lube. You don't need a high tech lube at these velocitys but you do need a lube that works. Stay away from the hard lubes (probably whats on that commercial bullet) even alox works at these velocitys but I like a good SOFT conventional lube like javalina or any of the 5050 lubes like the one lars sells. Actually any of his lubes are good lubes and work great. Small bullets and hard lubes are a recipe for leading.

[Petro58]

I used to use lubed boolits but I powder coat now, I use Unique a lot in my 1911 .45acp.. I'm shooting 200grn LSWC and 230grn LRN. No problems with any leading at all. I cast, powder coat, bake, then size to .452. I'll also use Titegroup and HP-38 every once in a while. But Mostly Unique.

[OS OK]

I guess I implied the the bullet would be in the barrel before ANY pressure started to build. You stated it better than me. I was speaking more about where the bullet would be at peak pressure. You said it better than I did

Read this about 'pressure'…re-evaluate what you think is happening.

'The Wizardry of Propulsion' (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?297867-The-Wizardry-of-Propulsion)

PS…what size was that round you took apart?

[dudel]

I have not. I will do that. But not right now. I doubt the little lady would appreciate my breaking out the kinetic bullet puller at this hour.

For a quiet way of pulling Boolits, remove any die, run the round up into the top of the press, grab the boolit with some needlenose (vertically), then lower the ram. Nice and quiet, just not the easiest way for large volumes.

[Possum Lickaa]

Read this about 'pressure'…re-evaluate what you think is happening.

'The Wizardry of Propulsion' (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?297867-The-Wizardry-of-Propulsion)

PS…what size was that round you took apart?

Great read! thank you. I hope you don't mind that I skipped the pencil, and just printed it.

[Possum Lickaa]

I would guess the zero bullets are water dropped and harder then your ww bullets. That said ive yet to see a 1911 that had a decent barrel that wouldn't shoot air cooled ww bullets with a good lube sized to 452 shot with 3.5-4.2 grains of bullseye without leading. If yours wont my guess is you just have a rough barrel. Keep in mind too that most all 1911s have shallow rifling and do better with well fit harder bullets. So its possible that you will do even better yet with accuracy and leading with water dropped or harder alloys. Most of my 1911s seem to do there very best at about 18bhn. I seriously doubt changing powders is going to help. But as usual I could be wrong. Id at least start by looking real closely at your barrel for rough spots or choke points and if you find them lap it or replace it and also don't fool with bullets smaller then 452. One last thing is lube. You don't need a high tech lube at these velocitys but you do need a lube that works. Stay away from the hard lubes (probably whats on that commercial bullet) even alox works at these velocitys but I like a good SOFT conventional lube like javalina or any of the 5050 lubes like the one lars sells. Actually any of his lubes are good lubes and work great. Small bullets and hard lubes are a recipe for leading.

Barrel sure as hell better be good as it is on a SA TRP! LOL! From what I have gathered so far, only minor tweaks will be necessary. I am probably making much ado about nothing. Just really interested in this new "hobby", and I want to make sure I am doing things correctly.

[OS OK]

It's good to see new fellas coming into our industry…I am especially proud of my efforts when I visit one of the fellas I taught and see his loading room set up so professionally and witness all the little things that he does that took me years to learn.
I am additionally impressed when they show me something that I have not considered or was not aware of…that is about the time that I know this fella will do just fine on his own from here on out…that gives me satisfaction!

[runfiverun]

I'm happy a new guy is willing to do most of the work himself and makes sure he understands what is being said before moving on.

[Char-Gar]

Trying of offer advise on how to cure a problem without having my hands on the firearm and loading process is almost impossible, so I won't eve try.

However, I can say you won't fix your problem, whatever it is, by changing from Bullseye to Unique.

[RogerDat]

Ben's Liquid Lube depends on Johnsons Liquid wax which is a discontinued product.

BLL is an easier way of making what is essentially 45/45/10 lube using Johnsons Paste wax which has not been discontinued but the paste wax has to be melted and cooked down for 20 minutes (+ or -) in order to make the 45/45/10. Either one is good but unless you happen to find a can or two of the liquid wax you need to read up on making 45/45/10 or buy it ready made from Lars http://lsstuff.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=2&products_id=31 you will probably find it is cheaper than buying the ingredients.

Whole process and ingredients for the 45/45/10 lube is in this thread http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?67654-Tumble-Lubing-Made-Easy-amp-Mess-Free&highlight=Johnsons+Paste+Wax+45+10 Not hard or expensive, but it does tend to get thick over time, has to be warmed in hot water or cut with a little mineral spirits as time goes by.

I would add one thing, warm bullets coat better than room temperature ones. I use a blow dryer on mine before tumble lubing. I think when warm they dry faster too.

Oddly enough sometimes softer lead can work better, I think the suggestion to cut the COWW with 50% plain might be worth a try, obturation of the softer bullet can make for a tighter fit sooner as it moves down the barrel. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obturation

[Tenbender]

I use Unique because it is cleaner.

[Lloyd Smale]

ya that surely should be a decent barrel but its no guarantee. Id proably consentrate more on getting away from the commercial bullets and lube. Cast your own at least 12 bhn and preferable even harder, size to 452 and lube with a good soft lube and ill bet you problem goes away
Barrel sure as hell better be good as it is on a SA TRP! LOL! From what I have gathered so far, only minor tweaks will be necessary. I am probably making much ado about nothing. Just really interested in this new "hobby", and I want to make sure I am doing things correctly.

[Possum Lickaa]

Trying of offer advise on how to cure a problem without having my hands on the firearm and loading process is almost impossible, so I won't eve try.

However, I can say you won't fix your problem, whatever it is, by changing from Bullseye to Unique.

Yeah... I'm definitely getting that vibe. Again, the leading is very minor. I imagine I could probably shoot upwards of 250-300 before it becomes any kind of issue at all. It is just some minor streaking. I think my next steps are going to be...

1. For COWW, I am going to up the ante a bit and see if the extra fps helps obturation.

2. Also going to go with some 50/50s over a mild target load, just to see what happens.

Thanks for all the input guys!

[leeggen]

Possum Lickaa do a search on the 45 acp and read as many threads as you can stand to read, soon a lot of the same repeats will start to register in the brain and some of the things that cause leading and where it is will become recoginisable. Not trying to say your not reading cause it seems you have , but just keep reading. A few simple things will appear. Some speak of no leading as in very slite to none. R5R, Char-Gar and GearpNasher have some good threads about the 45's.
Your getting there, atleast you are willing to ask, that's a good start.
CD

[Possum Lickaa]

Possum Lickaa do a search on the 45 acp and read as many threads as you can stand to read, soon a lot of the same repeats will start to register in the brain and some of the things that cause leading and where it is will become recoginisable. Not trying to say your not reading cause it seems you have , but just keep reading. A few simple things will appear. Some speak of no leading as in very slite to none. R5R, Char-Gar and GearpNasher have some good threads about the 45's.
Your getting there, atleast you are willing to ask, that's a good start.
CD

Roger that.

[Char-Gar]

Possum...I am going to have to tell you a truth that is seldom mentioned. There seems to be no standard definition to what constitutes "leading" and what does not. Folks post about no leading and that creates and expectation by new folks that cast bullets should shoot as clean as jacketed bullets, but that is never the case, despite some folks claims to the contrary.

When shooting cast bullet there will be a mix of lube and powder trash in the barrel often accompanied by a lead wash or a few lead streaks after a long shooting session. I would consider this to be normal. I good fitting brush, with a good solvent will remove this with 15 to 20 strokes in the bore. I don't consider this to be leading.

A couple of years back, I ran a thread about what folks considered leading to be. The long and short of it, was that most folks held views like mine. However new folks get different ideas from the posts.

We are living in a time when folks have unreasonable expectation from cast bullets. They don't want to have to clean their guns! They search for "clean burning powder", and zero-zero residue in their barrels. I think these are unreasonable expectations that have been foisted off on the inexperience shooter.

The best I can make out of your thread, is that you don't have a leading problem and hence there is no need for a fix. You can play with it if you like, but this old guy doesn't see an issue at all.

My advice to the newer shooters is to clean your pistols, lubricate them and wash your hands after each shooting session. Do that and you will never had a problem. That was what I was taught to do, back in the day.

[gwpercle]

I don't think you are ever going to absolute total nothing left in a bore after shooting things thru it.
Regardless of type of powder, even powder leaves something.
You are chasing an ureasonable expectation.

[Shiloh]

Your bore is .451. What size are your boolits??

Shiloh

[Lloyd Smale]

yup, I don't even consider it leading unless it gets so bad in a gun that it effects accuracy. If my guns shooting well I'm not going to waste my time trying to brush something out of it that isn't bothering it.
I don't think you are ever going to absolute total nothing left in a bore after shooting things thru it.
Regardless of type of powder, even powder leaves something.
You are chasing an ureasonable expectation.

[Wardo1974]

I have no idea why you think changing powder would reduce leading.

A .45 ACP load at 800 fps or so that's leading probably has to be a fitment issue.

I would definitely pull a boolit and see what size it is. I have frequently encountered problems with boolits getting swaged down just by seating them into the brass.

[Kevin Rohrer]

I stopped using Bullseye a long time ago in favor of any slower powder that prevents me from double-charging cases. Now it is Unique, Longshot, and H110 for all pistol calibers.

[Lloyd Smale]

I like the faster burning powders. You use half the bullseye that you would use if you used unique so its a lot more economical and ive loaded for 45 years and have never double loaded a single shell so id say if you tend to double load that you need to do more then switch powders. You need to pay attention to what your doing.

[454PB]

I like the faster burning powders. You use half the bullseye that you would use if you used unique so its a lot more economical and ive loaded for 45 years and have never double loaded a single shell so id say if you tend to double load that you need to do more then switch powders. You need to pay attention to what your doing.

Absolutely!

[trixter]

to the OP: This is just my $.02, I use Lee TL 452-200 SWC 6 hole mold, and range lead for all of my lead boolits. I lube with BLL and use 4.2-4.3gr Bullseye. The mold casts about .453-.454 and I run them through a .452 sizer. I have not experienced any leading. Originally I used Lee Liquid Alox by itself and had no leading. The BLL works just the same it just dries with a nice hard crust. Keeps things cleaner in the boolit seating die.

[MtGun44]

Unique is a bit too slow for the .45 ACP with 200 gr cast, produces more consistent
velocities with 230 gr cast. 200 cast with Unique will be accurate, but the powder
seems to burn inconsistently, I have seen 10 shot string velocity variations of over
100 fps in a 850 fps load, although by some magic, it is still an accurate load.

I prefer a faster powder like BE or TiteGroup for .45 ACP. 4.8 or so of either under
a cast 200 gr in .45 ACP will be excellent. Be sure to taper crimp as a separate
operation. There are two types of TC dies, get one with a short tapered section,
like 1-2 tenths of an inch when you look inside the die, not one with the smooth
taper from one end of the die to the other, looks featureless inside. You want
about .465 or .467, something around .005 tighter at the case extreme edge
than the .470 of the straight case. This eliminates the last few niggling failures
to feed that you will otherwise get in many guns.

[h8dirt]

Try WST. It did the trick for me -- and, it is as accurate as any. Additionally, in problematic barrels, I have the best luck with bullets that are about 12 - 15 Bhn. As a rule, hard bullets and hard lubes are not your friends at 1911 velocities. I must admit that Oregon Trails bullets are an exception (for some reason). FWIW.

[David2011]

. . . I am not worried about how the powder "meters" because I don't have one of those fancy setups anyway. :p

Any and all input is appreciated!

Whether you use Lee dippers or a conventional measure, Unique meters like oatmeal or corn flakes depending on your perspective. It is hard to measure in small amounts except by trickling into a scale. YMMV

David