Magnum loads in Special cases?

[crabo]

What are some guidelines for loading at or near magnum levels in special cases? In particular, I am talking about loads to be shot in 357 magnum guns, when loaded in 38 Special cases when if the bullet is loaded in a mag case the col is to long to chamber.

Glen has a great article on the 1894 levergun.

http://www.lasc.us/FryxellMarlin1894.htm

He talks about loading a lot of different bullets that will only chamber or feed if loaded into the special case. I would like to know how to figure what powder charges I can use. I don't know if there is a limitation to the special brass, but I would think it would raise pressures if you loaded magnum charges in a special case.

Thanks,

Crabo

[Junior1942]

See http://www.castbullet.com/shooting/rossi-s4.htm This is for 357 Rossi lever action using Lil'Gun and a 190 gr cast bullet. I don't think you can get too much Lil'Gun in a 38 or 357 case.

[HeavyMetal]

Read through the section on using the LBT 180 grain boolit in 38 special case for the authors Marlin rifle.

I'm real concerned here because of the question posted! So lets make sure the we know what we're talking about!

My understanding of the question by Crabo: can you put magnum loads in 38 special cases?

A shooter with a huge supply of 38 cases might think this a good idea! Sadly it's not!

If our author was able to make this boolit brass combo work the risk that this might fit in a standard 38 special firearm, no matter how remote, still exists!

The problem with magnum loads in 38 cases is the possiblity that someone some where might get one of these in a lightly built 38 special and have a considerable problem when the trigger gets pulled.

For years I have resisted putting magnum loads in 45 colt, 44 special, 38 special, 32 S&W Long. Particularly if I owned more than one gun in a specific caliber.

I just don't want anyone hurt because of my actions!

The posiblity exist for such an accident. The Shooting Industry has been on the offensive for more years than I care to think about, why add possible fuel to the fire?

Safety is everyones concern: Load Magnum's in magnum cases and let everyone live happily everafter.

[mooman76]

I agree with Heavey metal.
I have thought of that too and resisted because I do own both 38's and 357's. There is also the thing that if you shoot too many 38's in a 357 chamber it get's hard to load 357's in the chamber later on. Also you will get higher prsures from less case room. I don't really see any benifit in doing this inless you just flat don't have any 357 cases and in that case I would get some.

[crabo]

[QUOTE=crabo;333406]In particular, I am talking about loads to be shot in 357 magnum guns, when loaded in 38 Special cases when if the bullet is loaded in a mag case, the col is to long to chamber.

Thank you for your concerns, but it is not for a lack of 357 cases. I do know how to box and label reloads. I do know how keep the reloads from getting into the wrong gun.

I am looking for guidelines in creating heavy loads that are safe in modern, magnum handguns and rifles, but in special brass. I do not want loads that exceed pressures of the regular load if loaded into magnum cases. ( I must be having trouble communicating today)

Thanks,

Crabo

[trickyasafox]

I'm interested in this too crabo- I think with reasonable safety this is an interesting conversation. I don't not have tons and tons of 357 brass- maybe 300 pieces- But I have nearly 2k of 38spl brass (a bunch of which is +p rated)

[454PB]

Many years ago, a lot of us did this. I don't do it anymore, for the reasons listed previously and the fact that I have buckets of .357 brass. However, when I DID do it, I used a rule of thumb of a 15% powder reduction when using the shorter cases.

Skeeter and other old gun writers loved a 358156 in front of 13 to 14 grains Hercules 2400 loaded in .38 special cases.

Just keep in mind the reduction in case capacity when substituting .38 brass for .357 brass, and mark the boxed ammo with all kinds of warnings. You could get hit by a truck tomorrow, and some poor smuck might end up with your super hot .38 ammo!

[runfiverun]

the only problem i have with using the heavier loads in the shorter cases
is that you are putting the magnum pressures into a small area of the cylinder
or chamber.
the 445 superMag is rated for iirc @40,000 psi and is about 1.6" in case length
now put all 40,000psi in .90 about what a special size case is.
i know the gun is made to take the pressure but all in one spot?
doubt a 30,000psi load would be much of a problem in this case.
just my take on it.

[timkelley]

Load with bullet seated too long to chamber in a 38Spl and you can do it. Just be careful to work up to your load and watch to see that the case has a good grip on the bullet.

[beagle]

In the .38 Special case, you can exceed ++P loads in .357 Mag guns without any problems.

Check castpics in the articles section for "High Speed .38 Special Loads". I researched the old .38/44 data and duplicated the loads and developed some new loads with newer powders. These are used in a couple of Ruger Blackhawks and a M1894 Marlin carbine.

I started out researching the article with 200 once fired WW cases and I think at the end of my research, I'd lost two cases to a neck split which is about usual for multiple firings of .38 Special cases.

If you happen to have several .38 Specials in the family as well as the .357 Magnums, it would do well to keep the ".38/44" loads seperated. I've fired a few in my wife's Model 15 Smith and wouldn't want to do it as a steady thing.

I had a quantity of milspec .38 Special cases on hand (WCC74) and tried the hotter loads in these knowing that higher pressures would result probably but experienced no adverse problems.

So, if you have a .357 and a "tater sack" full of .38 Special cases, it's a great way to go. I normally keep and ammo can of these loads and they're my .22 plinking rounds in the .357 Mag carbine./beagle

[trickyasafox]

I thought +p+ 38 spl was almost low end of 357 mag?

[bearcove]

Just trim mag brass back a tenth to load those long bullets. 38 spec lenght, 357 mag headstamp.

[crabo]

This got to be a good discussion once we got all the legaleze out of the way.

Crabo

[mooman76]

crabo
I don't think we misuderstood you other than the fact we didn't know about the COL issue. We were just giving advice and you don't have to take it. With proper load workup as usual I don't see any other problems or issues. I think bearcove had a good idea though. Use magnum cases and trim them back to the length you need.

[crabo]

How do you get to castpics?

I have thought about trimming the cases back and that is a good solution, but I would have to be careful to keep the brass segregated. That small amount trimmed off would be hard to tell at a glance. I guess a good solution would be a special brass bag to keep the empties in. Then only tumble and load that group of brass.

I also know that it is going to take some testing time at the range to see if I can get some of the heavier bullets to shoot good enough in the 38 cases. It seems to me that the smallest jump I can have before the boolit engages the rifling will be the best. Only range time will tell that.

Crabo

[wills]

How do you get to castpics?



Crabo

Scroll all the way to the bottom of the page. There is a link.

[mike in co]

This got to be a good discussion once we got all the legaleze out of the way.

Crabo

the problem has been stated over and over. as has the proper/correct approach.

you built the load for your 357.....you die and your sister gives your ammo to a friend. the friend shoots the "38/357's" in grandads poorly serviced light weight 38 special.....the gun fails,it wounds her and the people on either side of her at the range she went to.
she sues your sister, the two injured parties sue your sister and her friend, the range sues both of them..............
the problem is YOU CANNOT, WITH 100% CERTAINTY, ENSURE THE AMMO WILL ONLY BE SHOT IN A 357.
all of this can be avoided by simply trimming 357 cases to 38 special length and proceeding with your project.
for the record i shoot a 44 mag loadS in cases trimmed to 44 special length......it provides quicker reloads( actually just emptying the cylinder) for a match i shoot once a month.

MIKE IN CO

[DLCTEX]

I mark special loads by wiping case heads with paint, enough is retained in the lettering to make them distinctive. They are then boxed and clearly labeled as to what they are. If some thief steals them and gives them to someone else, how is that my fault? Im sorry, but they should be more careful whom they recieve ammo from. That, to me, is like the stupid marking on firearms that cautions you to read the manual before firing, the user has responsibility to know what they are doing before picking up a firearm. Does anyone not know that firearms kill things? DALE

[dakotashooter2]

While trimming 357 brass is a good idea I think a good alternative would be to use +P or ++P brass. Even if someone disregards the labeling of the ammo box and headstamp if the bullet causes the loaded cartridge to exceed OAL enough that it cannot be loaded in a standard chamber/cylinder that in itself should prevent it from being fired in a "weak" gun.

Even with properly labeled factory ammo there are no guarantees. I 'm sure more than one person unfamiliar with firearms has bought +p stuff and fired it in a weak gun.


It would be nice if stamping sets were available for those of us who do specialty loading so we could stamp our stuff a : MAG , +P, SPECIAL or others.

[Ricochet]

Even with properly labeled factory ammo there are no guarantees. I 'm sure more than one person unfamiliar with firearms has bought +p stuff and fired it in a weak gun.
I'm sure that's why +P limits have been reduced. Used to be 20,000 PSI. Now it's 18,500.

[mike in co]

While trimming 357 brass is a good idea I think a good alternative would be to use +P or ++P brass. Even if someone disregards the labeling of the ammo box and headstamp if the bullet causes the loaded cartridge to exceed OAL enough that it cannot be loaded in a standard chamber/cylinder that in itself should prevent it from being fired in a "weak" gun.

Even with properly labeled factory ammo there are no guarantees. I 'm sure more than one person unfamiliar with firearms has bought +p stuff and fired it in a weak gun.


It would be nice if stamping sets were available for those of us who do specialty loading so we could stamp our stuff a : MAG , +P, SPECIAL or others.


sorry this dose not work and is unsafe.
the gentleman specifically says 357 mag loads in 38 special cases.
38 spcl is 17kpsi
38 spcl is 18.5 kpsi
and 357 mag is 35kpsi...that is more than double the 38 pressure.....
there is only one way to do this safely...period
trim down properly marked 357 mag cases...period.

mike in co

[runfiverun]

think i would trim them down and keep them totally separate, maybe even
purchase different brand of brass for the load develoment phase .

[S.R.Custom]

...when I DID do it, I used a rule of thumb of a 15% powder reduction when using the shorter cases.

Actually, when I compared powder volumes (trim both a special and a magnum case by the amount of bullet seating depth and compare powder capacities by weight), I found different weight brass to significantly affect this ratio. The difference between Remington magnum brass and Winchester Special brass was closer to 20%.

Also-- Also, the type (magnum vs special) brass you use is irrelevant; since revolver brass is fully supported, the strength of the whole operation is determined by the chamber walls, not the brass.

Functionally, accuracy will be a bit off, as the increased bullet jump to the barrel throat is increased, adversely affecting things like obturation and forcing cone skidding. Velocities will be a bit lower as well.



the only problem i have with using the heavier loads in the shorter cases is that you are putting the magnum pressures into a small area of the cylinder or chamber...

PSI is a pressure per unit area measurement; in a 40KPSI loading, the chamber walls only see 40K PSI, whther they are thimble sized or 6 feet long...

[Larry Gibson]

Puting .357 loads in .38 special cases?

Come on now guys, this isn't any more "dangerous" or "unsafe" that level II/III loads in the .45 Colt or level II/III/IV loads in the 45-70 if you load them correctly. You just have to mark them and keep them seperate as in the two mentioned cases above (probably more cases of this than I mentioned) for use only in .357 magnum firearms.

However in the case of the .38 Special case if you keep OAL the same you will run out of case volume well before you reach full .357 loads. Doesn't anyone remember why 358156 has two crimp grooves? It was to load 38/44 and .357 magnum loads into .38 Special cases with the bullet seated out to the second crimp groove. This increases the case capacity allowing almost magnum loads in the .38 case. I loaded thousands of these back in the '70s for use in a Colt Trooper and a Ruger Blackhawk. I had several thousand once fired military .38 cases. I loaded a soft cast 358156 over a slightly compressed load of 2400 (don't have the load here or I'd give it) and crimped into the second crimp groove. That was an excellent load. It was recommended by many of the pistolero writers of the day.

Cramming a Magnum load of faster burning powder into the .38 case with a .38 OAL will cause excessive pressure and potential harm. However if using common sense regarding case volume it is not a proble. I wouldn't hesitate, and probably will again, load tha magnum load into .38 cases with 358156.

Larry Gibson

[TAWILDCATT]

I mark all my auto brass with a marking pen.so I recognize mine.you could do the same to id the heavy loads.maybe a red marker.

[Boerrancher]

I have been shooting and reloading for a good number of years now, and I never ever shoot anyone else's hand loads unless I see them shoot them first. I have had thousands of rounds of hand loads given to me over the years from widows and such, and have never fired a single one. The bullets get pulled and the powder dumped. If I can re-use the bullets I do. The primed cases I reload with my own measured powder charge.

It may seem a bit harsh on my part but if you are silly enough to put someone else's ammo in your fire arm you deserve what you get. That is just my 2 cents worth.

[docone31]

I have to agree with not shooting someone else's reloads.
I was given a trashed Lithgow #1 MKIII. It had two bullets lodged in the barrel! The person who gave me the rifle had fired the ammo, and did not even know they were in there!
The first thing I do, is check the barrel when I get a rifle, or pistol. It was a rust bucket and I could get a barrel. I swapped out and it is a beauty.
The point, if I load it, I shoot it. If it works, I let someone else shoot it, if I am watching.
When I make specialty ammo, I mark it, and keep it seperate. Back when, when I was not having so many senior moments, I could remember things. I no longer trust myself, to make a few experimentals and keep them seperate. Not at least for a long time.
I never tried magnum 38 Special loads. I felt the bullet jump would make whatever advantage compromised. That is just me. Perhaps that is not so, but I never found out, I never tried.
I too, have been given someone else's loaded ammo. I pulled it. No disrespect intended to the person loading it, That is just my way. I have found, pulling a batch, flake, and ball powder in the same box. Bullets were ok, though. Primers were set at all different depths. I just reloaded them all the way.
I don't know. I am not sure there is an advantage of a full magnum .38 Special.
Just me.
I tried 180gn .357 sillouette bullets in my .35 Remington, XP100. Worked pretty well. I would never have tried it first though. I saw someone do it. It worked for them.
Just me.

[HeavyMetal]

I like the suggestion made to trim 357 brass back and use it instead of 38 special. In a worst case senario the case stamping itself is the best "idiot Proofing" a lawyer can ask for.

I will suggest you buy brass cases to trim and shoot nickle for everything else in this caliber, sort of a natural color coding.

We, as individuals, have the responsibility to make safe ammo not only for ourselves but for anyone that might for what ever ( even criminal) reasons wind up with it.

This reasoning isn't to protect idiots! It's to Protect our Sport! which I hope we may all enjoy for many years to come.

I take this approach after watching a shooter, from a gun club I belonged to, remove the top strap and upper three chambers of a 6 inch modle 29 in a IPSC match in 1978!

We all know that .... happens! I won't be responsible for it if I can help it!

[carpetman]

shorter case is going to give higher pressure---trimming a .357 case not good for that reason. Using Unique you can easily double charge.

[Bret4207]

I have guns of differing strength using the same cartridge- 32 S+W Long and 45 ACP for example. I use different loads in my top break 6" IJ 32 Long than I do in my Smith K-32 or Ruger SSM. The '17 Smith uses different loads than the Ruger BH. If I use nickel brass for one type of load or use a different boolit design for each use then I know by sight what I'm dealing with. I have 32-20 loads in a box marked "RIFLE USE ONLY!!!". Should I kick off this afternoon and my wife sell those loads to some clown who can't read, that's his tough luck. You can only protect the stupid from themselves for so long....

[Whitespider]

You can only protect the stupid from themselves for so long....

Ain't that just the truth though!!!!!

Most of the time I have/keep several thousand rounds of reloaded ammunition, all of which I consider unsafe if used in someone else's firearm! Even my low pressure target loads have been developed for MY gun, no other!

I have .45 Colt that would positively make a SAA come unglued, .45-70 that would destroy a Trapdoor Springfield, .32-20 and .38-40 that would melt the guts of a '73 Winchester, etc., etc., etc........ For that matter, I have .44 Mag loads I use in my SBH that I'd never, never, never use in my model 29.

After all, isn't custom ammunition for your gun what reloading is all about? I use good, clear labeling on storage boxes and if I'm concerned that I could mix them up, I mark the cases by filling a small notch(s) in the rim (i.e. I file a notch in the rim of my SBH only loads). The only negative to using "notches" is that it pretty much regulates that case to that load for it's usable life.

What about cartridge conversions and wildcats? The head stamp sure ain't representative of what the cartridge actually is. Couldn't some of those just as easily end up in the wrong gun? I see no difference between that and using .38 Special cases to make loads for your .357 Magnum.

If some idiot can't or won't read the label(s) on the box(s) after I'm gone....... well, like the man says, "You can't fix stupid!".

Just my $0.02 worth......

[FieldShunt]

Just to throw in-
The likely reason for using .38 cases for .357 level loads is speed for competition. I like to shoot major power level in USPSA, which means getting a 158 grainer going close to 1100fps. But .357 cases tend to eject poorly and leave empties half in the cylinder no matter how hard I try to smack them out.
I've been aching to use shorter cases, too, seeing myself botch reloads more than occasionally. I even started to trim down some new Winchester .357 cases to around an inch just to reduce the hangups.
But I keep worrying about them getting into the wrong gun, too.
Actually, the serious ICORE boys use .38 Short Colt brass, including with moonclips, to speed things up even more. Then, there's a few who jack those up to major levels with 200 grain bullets... more than I'd have the nerve to try.
They say the .38SC case is close to the 9mm Parabellum in volume and proceed accordingly.
It's for speed.
Bill