Confused on Measuring Black Powder Substitutes..

[jleneave]

Hey guys I am a little confused on how to measure out Pyrodex P and Goex Pinnacle. The Pyrodex website says not to weigh out this powder but instead measure by volume. The Goex also says to substitute this powder volume for volume of black powder. Here is where I start to get confused, I have two powder flask, one for the Pyrodex and one for Goex. Both flask have tips that are marked in grains. I am guessing that the tips are marked for black powder and when full of black powder would weigh about what is marked on them. So, my question is do I figure out how many grains of black powder that I want to load and then put on the correct tip for the black powder and then fill with either Pyrodex P or Goex Pinnacle??

I will be shooting a Uberti Model 1860 with a steel frame, using both home cast and Speer .454" round balls, Wonder Wads over the powder charge, Remington #11 primers. If anyone has any experience with these powders and has any load suggestions I would greatly appreciate them. As ya’ll have probably already guessed I have no experience what so ever with black powder firearms so I thought that I would give them a try.

Thanks in advance for any help that ya’ll may give, I really appreciate it!!!

[mooman76]

Black powder isn't as sinsitive as smokeless so small amounts of changes arent as critical. Yes you figure out what you want to use BP wise(amount) and start from there. Pyro is lighter and in BP and sustitutes you alway measure by volume. I usually start out figuring a load buy going half on pistols and even amount on rifles. That meaning a 50 cal. rifle I would start out using 50 grains and if it were a pistol in 50 cal I would start with 25g. This isn't the best load but a starting point. On your pistol I would start out with 20 to make it even and you could even go down a little if you want or go up from there to see what suits you best. I have used Pyro before but I have never used the Goex pinnacle but if it says to use and even amount, that is what I would do. Most of the BP substitues you substitute grain for grain (by volume using a volume grain measure not by weight)but some like 777 are a little more powerful.

[Niner]

Spouts for bp flasks come in sizes. A Uberti 1860 Army should take a charge of about 22 grains, according to the Dixie catalog. What are the spouts sized for?

[jleneave]

Moonman, thank you for your reply.

Niner, the spouts are 22 grain, 24 grain, 25 grain, and 28 grain. Thanks for the reply.

[mooman76]

You can get a spout for about any size you want. If they don't have the size you want you just buy one a little bigger and cut it down to what you want. You can get a adjustable measure to figure out the size you like first or just go with a genaric size. The bigger ones usually come in 5g increments.

[Niner]

jleneave, looks like you are all set for spouts. Let us know how it shoots. I tend to believe that less is best in powder load when punching paper with Pyrodex.

Does the pistol come with a suggested load range from Uberti?

[TCLouis]

statement, one exchanges loading data for BP substitutes volume for volume, NOT grain for grain.

That is what was posted until that last sentence.

One has to give the powder developers credit, coming up with a BP substitute may be hard, then the have to make it volumetrically comparable.


I knew what you meant, I knew you knew what you meant, some might not know what was meant.
I loved trying to put that all in the right order!

[mooman76]

I was misuderstood or probably better said I wrote it wrong . I meant grain per grain using a volume grain meter not by weight. Thanks for the catch TCLouis. I will edit.

[freedom475]

I would place an order to Grafs for some real black. There powder is good. And nothing beats the smell and preformance of real black. They'll send 25Lbs. in one package and one hazmat. Very resonable prices too. Compared to taking it in the &$$ for crappy pyro or 777 at $20 a lb.

I have found that a lighter charge of Pyrodex "P" will give higher velocities and a louder report than a full cylinder compressed down with the ball, in my 1860 navy arms.

[northmn]

Whether you use black or a substitute you need to first understand that the BP powder measures are sometimes not all that close to what they say they are or depend upon how you use them. My measures need to be tapped a couple of times while filling to come close to their markings. I have weighed 777 and pyrodex in my 45-70 to get equal compression BUT I calibrate the substitutes against the BP by weighing three or four measures of black and then weighing the substitutes at the same measure setting. For loading ML's you can do this to see if your 70 grain setting is 70 grains equivalent. I have loaded the revolvers to full capacity with all of them. So far I think BP is as good as any in revolvers. I really do not like the substitutes in traditional ML's as they don not ignite as consistantly as black nor are they as accurate for me. BP cartridge shooters get as little as 10 fps or less TOTAL deviation from shot to shot with BP. Not with the substitutes.

Northmn

[jleneave]

Sorry it took me so long to get back to this post. I thought that I would write a little report on the cap 'n ball revolver that I bought. I will probably copy it to an earlier post also where I was trying to decide on which one to buy and let all the guys that helped me out in making my decision know how it is going.

Niner, I ordered one of the Uberti Model 1860 Army revolvers with the steel color case hardened frame back in March when they went on sale. It was back ordered for over a month. I have only had it for a few weeks, but so far I am very satisfied with it. This is the first black powder/muzzle loading firearm of any type that I have ever owned. I have shot it a few times and it shoots about 6" high at 20 yards with both Speer and home cast .454” round balls over 24grs of either Pyrodex or Goex. I haven't had a chance to shoot it at any further distances. I am very happy with the quality and workmanship. I just wish that the color case hardening on the frame looked as good as it does on the bullet seating lever! The wood used in the grips is absolutely gorgeous!! They look 100 times better than the grips on any of my Ruger Blackhawks or any other revolvers that I own!! They are really dark grained with a clear coat on them that makes them shiny. I would love to have grips that look as good as these on my other handguns! It looks and feels so good in my hands that I can hardly put it down. I am thinking very seriously about ordering a second one, that is if Midway ever gets them back in stock. They must be hard to keep in stock because every other website I have checked shows them to be back ordered too. I only have limited experience with it so far, but at this point I would recommend this cap 'n ball revolver to anyone in the market for one. If you can find one of these go ahead and get it, you won’t be disappointed.

Freedom475, I have looked for black powder in my area but have not found anyone that carries it. It seems that everyone around here only carries the substitutes. I would be interested in getting the real thing. Can you give me a website or contact info for “Grafs”?

Northmn, I think that the inaccuracy (if that’s a word) of the powder measurers is one of the things that is confusing me. I have two different adjustable measurers, one a clear plastic one that you can see through and one brass one. Neither of them measure out the same amount of powder by volume when set at the same number of grains, if that makes sense to you. That is one reason I would like to try some black powder.

Thanks to all of you who replied. I appreaciate ya’ll taking the time to try and help get me straightened out on this.

[Old Ironsights]

Three of my favorite "pushers" when I can't get Bulk Lidu...

http://www.grafs.com/powders/3522

http://www.powderinc.com/

http://www.mainepowderhouse.com/

FWIW Graf's BP is Schutzen BP. Both are made by Wano.

[mooman76]

Jleneave
Don't sweat the powder measures. It's not that big an issue. One reason they are different is that BP absorbes moisture so the weight of x amount of BP will take up a different amount of space because it is heavier. plus 3f is going to be heavier in the same amount of space as 2 or 1f. BP isn't as powerful as smokeless and a grain or two either way don't usually make much difference. Just use the same measure and don't switch back and forth. The key is consistance. Try different amounts of powder until you find waht you want in a load.

[northmn]

Jleneave, Generally you will get variations in powder measures for the reasons Mooman listed. I have seen differences of more than a couple of grains however. As he stated just use the same measure unless you need precision for some reason. When working up accurate loads some target shooters like to know in grains the weight they are shooting in case they lose the measure. In a C&B revolver you likely are not that critical. Those revolvers tend to shoot high. When I shot mine in target matches I soldered in another hight sight to make it shoot on as it was about 12" high at 25 yards. I also used one competition in a form of bowling pin shooting where we would see how fast we could take 4 blocks of wood of a board. Great fun and more what the revolvers were designed for than punching paper. They were combat arms. You aimed at the midsection and it would hit out to a considerable range. Civil war training. Aim at the shiny belt buckle. Some of the rifled muskets shot high also. Good shooting have fun.

Northmn