How dumb can some people be????

[oldred]

I think I mentioned this same yardsale gun a couple of years ago and I have no idea why he still has it now but he has it for sale AGAIN, or at least this past weekend, at a yardsale along a state highway! What is it? Well it's a 12 ga shotgun with a sawed off pistol grip stock and a barrel about 8" long, the entire shotgun is only about 16" or so! When he had it out before a couple of people was warning this idiot (yes I said IDIOT!) what would happen to him if he was caught with that thing but I didn't even wait around to see what he said about it, I hightailed it out of there! Now a couple of years later he again has, or had, that thing laying out in plain view on a table with some other guns for sale, some people just don't get it I suppose!

[Mica_Hiebert]

Maybe it's registered as a sbs

[Omega]

Did he rifle the barrel?

[Chihuahua Floyd]

OK,
He has been warned, if you heard it last time. I would consider him a danger to less knowledgeable people ( I know that is a stretch, but it will happen, he could sell it to someone). Is this in town or out in the country?
I believe he needs a visit from a local cop if he puts it out again.
Just my 2 cents worth. Not being mean, but if he thinks he should be able to sell this thing he might sell it to someone who would do harm to others.
CF

[blademasterii]

Doesn't matter if he rifled the barrels. Only thing he could do is weld it shut and add holes for a fuse for blackpowder. Once a shotgun, always a shotgun. Cut it down becomes sbs (short barrel shotgun) if barrel is under 18 and overall is under 28. Requires stamp prior to modification. Best for him is to destroy it. Least amount of paperwork that way. Just got my stamp yesterday for my sbs.

[bubba.50]

as Einstein said : "the difference between genius & stupidity is that genius has limits".

[oldred]

Doesn't matter if he rifled the barrels. Only thing he could do is weld it shut and add holes for a fuse for blackpowder. Once a shotgun, always a shotgun. Cut it down becomes sbs (short barrel shotgun) if barrel is under 18 and overall is under 28. Requires stamp prior to modification. Best for him is to destroy it. Least amount of paperwork that way. Just got my stamp yesterday for my sbs.


I didn't even know a person could get a stamp for such a beast, that's good to know. However I'm certain "Bubba" here doesn't have such a stamp because what little I talked with him I could tell he was very gun illiterate so I seriously doubt he has gone so far as to get a stamp and even if he did he still couldn't just sell the thing at a yardsale to just anyone who stopped by could he?

[winchester85]

maybe it is a trap? could be he has problems with the ATF and he is being used to nab someone who buys it?

[GOPHER SLAYER]

old, was that the yard sale where you passed on a Luger without asking the selling price?

[oldred]

old, was that the yard sale where you passed on a Luger without asking the selling price?


Yep that's the one and I said in the original post that I had mentioned this gun a couple of years ago, this time it's not so much about the fact that he had tried to sell it then but that he still has the darn thing and was trying to sell it this past weekend! I have no idea why it's up for sale again, I assume he listened to what people were telling him then and has just recently decided to try it again.

[Geezer in NH]

Don't buy it. It's a TRAP!:bigsmyl2::popcorn:

[blademasterii]

No, he cannot sell it to just anyone. It must be a form 4 transfer. He or the buyer files paperwork applying for a legal transfer of ownership from himself to the seller for a 200.00 stamp fee. The process takes about 3 or 4 months currently. The penalty is 10 years and 250k dollars for possession without the stamp. :D That is if it is a registered title II firearm in the first place.

[Artful]

Now question becomes how close your getting into the Aiding and Abetting

Legal doctrine related to the guilt of someone who aids or abets in the commission of a crime.
It exists in a number of different countries and generally allows a court to pronounce someone guilty
for aiding and abetting in a crime even if they are not the principal offender.

[Artful]

No, he cannot sell it to just anyone. It must be a form 4 transfer. He or the buyer files paperwork applying for a legal transfer of ownership from himself to the seller for a 200.00 stamp fee. The process takes about 3 or 4 months currently. The penalty is 10 years and 250k dollars for possession without the stamp. :D That is if it is a registered title II firearm in the first place.

There's the rub - sounds like he doesn't have a form 1 or form 4
Therefore he a criminal and in the act of selling illegal gun - unless of course he works for BATFE and is trying to snare someone.

[StolzerandSons]

He doesn't have to dispose of the whole thing or weld it shut, he could simply get rid of the barrel(various methods for doing that). Remove what's left of the stock, not that he would have to but because it will sell better without it. Then the action magically becomes legal to sell as a shotgun action again.

Without the barrel or the stock it is just a perfectly legal action to sell whole or as parts.

[mold maker]

Did you feel the hair on the back of your neck standing at attention as you left? As If someone was intently watching you?

[jonp]

Cut to the chase. How much did you give him for it and are you going to re-sell it here?

[Rufus Krile]

Back in the 80's there was a dive company going out of business during one of the oilfield slowdowns and were having an auction. Went looking for a drill press but found only junk... and 3 cases of binary explosive used for cutting the legs off offshore platforms... This stuff is white on one end and red on the other, separated by a plastic film. Perfectly safe until flexed and mixed. Asked the auctioneer if they were really going to auction this stuff off and was told "absolutely". Pulled one out of an open case that was PINK on both ends... eased it back into the case and told him he needed to call the local sheriff's dept and stay away from this stuff until they got there. But I have to admit, I WAS tempted.

[oldred]

Cut to the chase. How much did you give him for it and are you going to re-sell it here?


The first time I saw that thing I stayed around long enough to discuss a Luger Pistol with him but I didn't have anything to do with that shotgun, Saturday my BIL was over and he told me he saw that the guy had it back out there again! Later that day as my wife and I drove by I stopped long enough to scan over his two tables he had set up and sure enough there it was beside a couple of cheap bolt action 22s, I never even talked with him and didn't hang around. I thought it was kind of funny a couple of years ago and this time I just stopped for a couple of minutes to see if he did indeed really have it for sale again, I wouldn't touch that thing with a long stick!

[abunaitoo]

Just thinking, but don't people like this make us all look bad?????

[Artful]

Just thinking, but don't people like this make us all look bad?????

I don't know - want to ask Randy Weaver?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruby_Ridge

In October 1989, the ATF claimed that Weaver sold the informant two sawed-off shotguns, with the overall length of the guns shorter than the legal limit set by federal law.

According to the reports I saw the barrels were either 1/4" too short of 18" or 3/8" too short - but then he sold two guns to the BATFE/GOV Snitch and according to Weaver both were legal when the informant left his place with them but showed up shorter in court.

[snowwolfe]

I don't see why anyone would be concerned with what a non friend is trying to sell at a yard sale.

[oldred]

I don't see why anyone would be concerned with what a non friend is trying to sell at a yard sale.


Wasn't really concerned just thought it interesting that someone could be so out of touch that he would take such a chance, I mean getting caught with a sawed off shotgun is a big deal yet this guy seems to be very unconcerned and apparently thinks it's not really a serious offense, but then who knows what he is thinking? I thought it was odd the first time, to say the least, seeing such a serious offense right out in the open and the fella seemingly unaware of the situation he was putting himself in but he was warned by others that day - as I was leaving two different people were clearly explaining what was about to happen to him. I assume he must have listened and put the thing away but now there he was a couple of years later trying it again!

[NavyVet1959]

Well, *I* believe in the 2nd Amendment and have not started on that slide down the slippery slope like apparently some of the people on the thread have started, so *I* would say nothing. I definitely would not report him. The "laws" that he is supposedly violating are unconstitutional. Now, *I* don't want to be a test case since I know that the government has more time and money to make my life miserable than I do to make it's life miserable, but as far as I'm concerned -- more power to him. If enough people ignore unjust / unconstitutional laws, maybe the laws will get changed. It worked for the stoners in Colorado, didn't it?

[Blackwater]

Red, you can tell people anything you want, but no matter HOW True it is, they're never obligated to accept it just because it's the truth, even if the penalty is rather large. Some folks just have to pee on the electric fence to become believers. I'd just let water seek it's level here. Shouldn't take very long. Seldom does in cases like this.

[Rustyleee]

I'd call the law. I'll bet there's a state law against it as well.

[Col4570]

Here in the UK 24 inches is the limit for Shotgun Barrels,under that is illegal.

[oldred]

Well, *I* believe in the 2nd Amendment and have not started on that slide down the slippery slope like apparently some of the people on the thread have started, so *I* would say nothing. I definitely would not report him. The "laws" that he is supposedly violating are unconstitutional. Now, *I* don't want to be a test case since I know that the government has more time and money to make my life miserable than I do to make it's life miserable, but as far as I'm concerned -- more power to him. If enough people ignore unjust / unconstitutional laws, maybe the laws will get changed. It worked for the stoners in Colorado, didn't it?


I didn't tell the guy to do anything with it and I have not nor will not report him, what he does is his business but "what should be done" was not the point of this thread. I was merely astounded that someone would be willing to do such a thing and I thought it very odd that he would try it again after being clearly told of the possible (probable consequences). Today is Saturday and I don't know if he will be set up out there again or not as he often is but if he is there today I bet that gun will be gone one way or the other, either someone bought it or he came to his senses and either hid it or disposed of it but either way I bet he got his ears burned about what would happen to him!

[Geezer in NH]

Quislings are about

[montana_charlie]

I'd call the law. I'll bet there's a state law against it as well.
Would you be hoping for a reward, too ... or maybe just ten minutes of fame with your picture in the paper?

[Der Gebirgsjager]

StolzerandSons has it right, but practically speaking it is impractical to rebuild the actions into functioning shotguns, especially the cheapies. Finding and fitting barrels for old shotguns is a daunting task. I used to handle sales for one of the local police departments when they periodically emptied out their evidence room, and there were always a dozen sawed off shotguns. In their presence I'd sledge hammer the shorty barrels flat and throw them in the dumpster, remove the buttstock (most were firewood category) and ship the actions off to the Gun Parts Corp.

[imashooter2]

I don't know - want to ask Randy Weaver?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruby_Ridge


According to the reports I saw the barrels were either 1/4" too short of 18" or 3/8" too short - but then he sold two guns to the BATFE/GOV Snitch and according to Weaver both were legal when the informant left his place with them but showed up shorter in court.


My understanding is that the barrels were the legal 18", but someone had shortened the stocks so they were under the 26" minimum OAL.

Anyway, as I understand it, that would have made those shotguns into "Any Other Weapons" and the tax on an AOW is $5. So our government spent millions of dollars, killed his dog, his son and shot his wife in the face as she held a baby over suspected non payment of a $10 tax.

[shooterg]

The dude could "lose" the barrel and MAYBE sell the action for a couple bucks. Lot better than fines and jail !

[aephilli822]

... I'd sledge hammer the shorty barrels flat and throw them in the dumpster, ....

Some blacksmith would love to have the metal, maybe make knives out of it?

[blademasterii]

An individual cannot manufacture an aow for the 5.00 transfer. Only an 07/02 dealer/manufacturer can do that. You can build one but it costs 200.00. So all the above for tax evasion to the tune of 400.00. I seem to remember race baiter Sharpton is several million behind on taxes and is invited to the white house regularly. Shot my sbs today and it needs some work to the gas ports. Hoping I can drill them out a bit and get it to function with walmart low brass loads. 162820

[tommag]

After being told the same thing by several different individuals, he is maybe a dim bulb. I'd be more inclined to think that buying from him would eventually result in an in unpleasant visit by the feds finest.

[NavyVet1959]

If the workmanship was acceptable on the firearm, it might be worthwhile to buy it in parts, but not as a whole. You probably have a rifled chamber adapter silver soldered / brazed into the barrel so that it could be used for a smaller gauge / caliber, just like the .410 / .45LC handguns have to have a rifled barrel. If you are concerned about the unconstitutional ATF rules, you probably would want to not have the barrel and receiver ever in the same location (until you had paid your taxes to exercise your constitutional right).

[MaryB]

Bury it, forget where! The dude is playing with fire if a cop walks by!

[starmac]

I have a feelin that if he has had it on display at least twice, two years apart some dogooder has reported it. If so that leaves one possibility in my mind, and I would bet that any buyer would get less than a block down the road with it and he could put it back in a garage sale in another couple of years.

[Tackleberry41]

Some people just hate to part with something they might get a few bucks for. Anybody with a brain, would chuck the barrel or the whole thing.

I eneded up with an old 10ga H&R years ago. Somebody had cut to much barrel off. It stayed out at an old hunting camp, came with 10 boxes of shells. Once we blew off the shells, the gun went into a pond. Looking back I should have just tossed the barrel, I could use the action, but oh well.

[NavyVet1959]

Some people just hate to part with something they might get a few bucks for. Anybody with a brain, would chuck the barrel or the whole thing.

I eneded up with an old 10ga H&R years ago. Somebody had cut to much barrel off. It stayed out at an old hunting camp, came with 10 boxes of shells. Once we blew off the shells, the gun went into a pond. Looking back I should have just tossed the barrel, I could use the action, but oh well.

Yep, that was a real waste... You could have brazed a shroud / flash hider / whatever to the end of the barrel to adjust the length.

[aephilli822]

Yep, that was a real waste... You could have brazed a shroud / flash hider / whatever to the end of the barrel to adjust the length.
That's where I was going, a friend of mine did that with an old Turkish Mauser.

[David2011]

No, he cannot sell it to just anyone. It must be a form 4 transfer. He or the buyer files paperwork applying for a legal transfer of ownership from himself to the seller for a 200.00 stamp fee. The process takes about 3 or 4 months currently. The penalty is 10 years and 250k dollars for possession without the stamp. :D That is if it is a registered title II firearm in the first place.

Actually, that's the bad part. Yes he can sell it to anyone that will pay his price. He probably can't sell it LEGALLY to ANYONE. From what was said it doesn't sound like he has proper papers.

[Rally]

I was watching an episode of "Drugs Inc" the other day. Showed a gang banger with a sawed off 20 ga. H&R, total length couldn't have been over 15". At least he was wearing a ski mask!

[NavyVet1959]

I was watching an episode of "Drugs Inc" the other day. Showed a gang banger with a sawed off 20 ga. H&R, total length couldn't have been over 15". At least he was wearing a ski mask!

There might even be a way to create one of those legally and without paying the ATF tax. If you were able to buy an H&R receiver directly from the manufacturer and it was not listed as a shotgun or rifle, you could install one of the rifled 20-gauge or 12-gauge "UltraSlug" (i.e. rifled) barrels on it and it would be a "handgun".

[StolzerandSons]

There might even be a way to create one of those legally and without paying the ATF tax. If you were able to buy an H&R receiver directly from the manufacturer and it was not listed as a shotgun or rifle, you could install one of the rifled 20-gauge or 12-gauge "UltraSlug" (i.e. rifled) barrels on it and it would be a "handgun".
Handguns have a bore limit of .500" so unless you have a specific sporting exemption from the ATF like the .600NE Contender pistols you'd still not be legal.

[dk17hmr]

Two years apart I bet it was a sting. The main ATF-NFA office is right in that area of the country.

[NavyVet1959]

Handguns have a bore limit of .500" so unless you have a specific sporting exemption from the ATF like the .600NE Contender pistols you'd still not be legal.

From a practical standpoint though, a 12-gauge pistol would kill your wrist if you fired it single handed. I tried that ONCE with a pistol grip 12-gauge shotgun. My wrist was sore for a few days afterwards. :(

[NavyVet1959]

How much was he wanting for it?

If cheap enough, I'm pretty sure I could come up with a "creative" way of buying it as parts that would still be perfectly legal. If it is an ATF sting, I wonder how they would feel about someone buying their bait and not violating any laws while doing it. Might put a bit of a crimp in their sting. :)

[tommag]

How much was he wanting for it?

If cheap enough, I'm pretty sure I could come up with a "creative" way of buying it as parts that would still be perfectly legal. If it is an ATF sting, I wonder how they would feel about someone buying their bait and not violating any laws while doing it. Might put a bit of a crimp in their sting. :)

I like the way you think. Pretty sure possessing the bbl and receiver would be constructive possesion, not sure of the term. Knowing the batf, if I were to buy parts without the bbl, is make sure I had at least two people with me to serve as witnesses.

[NavyVet1959]

I like the way you think. Pretty sure possessing the bbl and receiver would be constructive possesion, not sure of the term. Knowing the batf, if I were to buy parts without the bbl, is make sure I had at least two people with me to serve as witnesses.

Easiest solution would be to remove the pistol grip and braze a shroud over the end of the barrel so that the barrel would be 18+" long. If the entire guy with the pistol grip was 24+" long at that point, you could reinstall the pistol grip, otherwise, you should either get a shoulder stock or use a longer shroud.

It would be nice if there was a way (which the ATF wouldn't complain about) that would allow you to take a single shot shotgun or rifle receiver and convert it into a handgun. Of course, if you start out as a handgun, you can convert it into a rifle, but they have an issue with you doing it the other way around. If that was possible, I could see someone taking something like this firearm and converting it into a single shot pistol caliber with a barrel insert. Unfortunately, the ATF is subscribes to the (unconstitutional) idea of "once a shotgun/rifle, ALWAYS a shotgun/rifle (unless you pay us $200) and fill out a bunch of paperwork and like being restricted in where/when you can carry said firearm".

[donald duck]

Yes, I agree that there are a lot of very stupid people in our Country. That was how obama, our muslim president got elected. Now let us hope they have smartened up a little so that hillary will go down in defeat.

[mold maker]

Yes, I agree that there are a lot of very stupid people in our Country. That was how obama, our muslim president got elected. Now let us hope they have smartened up a little so that hillary will go down in defeat.


Amen to that.

[NavyVet1959]

Yes, I agree that there are a lot of very stupid people in our Country. That was how obama, our muslim president got elected. Now let us hope they have smartened up a little so that hillary will go down in defeat.

He might be *your* president, but he's definitely not mine. He's nothing more than an illegal squatter that no one (who is in the position to do something about it) is willing to take the necessary steps to correct the situation. The military completely ignores its oath to "defend the Constitution against all enemies, foreign and DOMESTIC".

[David2011]

I've checked in on this thread several times. Back to the title, I still think the same thing every time - "Is there any limit on how dumb people can be?

David

[aephilli822]

“Two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I am not yet completely sure about the universe.” Albert Einstein

[ncbearman]

In my book those are a great home defense guns. Excellent for working around corners and in tight places. Put it next to the night stand or in the closet and shoot and clean it a couple times a year. No matter what state your in if you shoot someone in self defense in your home your going to have "issues" even with a legal gun but...............at least its him on the floor and not you or a family member.

Now trying to sell it as opposed to just possessing it, yeah thats stupid. Probably a snare. Cause you wouldn't think someone is that dumb. Would you? :veryconfu

[GPappy]

When I was in college a friend of mine inherited a flare gun from his grand father. It did not look to be modified but it happened to be able to chamber and fire a 20 gauge shell. It was a hoot to shoot. It disappeared one year while we were in school. Seems his mother found out that it was more than a flare gun and disposed of it. Is it possible that it may have started life with an alternative purpose?