Light load for GC boolits with out GC

[trapper9260]

Hi I like to know if for light loads for boolits that is for GC ,that you do not need to put a GC on for the FPS that it is going,How fast can you go with out a GC for light load that you need to put one.I know it depends on the alloy and all.But what I like to know is like loads like the Cat Sneeze and loads like that.

[44man]

Really does not matter as long as it shoots good. Alloy is important for PB at top loads and most revolvers do not need GC boolits no matter.
The only thing I have run into, leaving checks off is how much drive band the boolit has left for the twist.
Just something you need to try.

[trapper9260]

Ok thank you, I was thinking that for FPS of the speed would be that you could go by.

[wadcutter]

I try to keep them under 1500, but I haven't done any experiments to prove out that number.

I shoot a variety of rifle calibers with Unique for plinking loads and often don't use gas checks.

[trapper9260]

I try to keep them under 1500, but I haven't done any experiments to prove out that number.

I shoot a variety of rifle calibers with Unique for plinking loads and often don't use gas checks.

Ok thank you .

[W.R.Buchanan]

Trapper: the problem is the base of the boolit sealing the bore. With a GC boolit there is a space on the side of the boolit where gas can get a head start on bypassing the boolit,,, which causes leading,,, similar to what Bevel Based Boolits do when driven too hard.

Obviously the more pressure you have, the more likely you are to see this. You might be able to get your boolits to work OK with very light loads,,, but they are never going to be "that good." Simply because the boolit isn't designed to be used that way.

I have done it in the past with my light .44 Special Loads as I only had the one mould which was a Lee .429-240GC mould. It leaded like crazy even with light charges of 5 gr of Bullseye. That same Boolit with a gas check produced excellent accuracy with full power loads and 1 1/2" groups at 25 yards were routine. (S&W M29 8 3/8)

BUT,,,, That mould dropped at .429 and I sized the boolits at .429 with the Lee Tools, which was too small to begin with. This is what I was told to do back then as Cast Boolits.com didn't exist in 1978. That never caused a problem with Gas Checks installed simply because Gas Checks eliminate leading. A good reason to use them on guns prone to leading.

If I had read the Lyman Cast Boolit Handbook that I did have a little closer, I probably could have gotten those to work a little better.

However,,, You would be much better off "Biting the Boolit," so to speak, and obtaining a plain based boolit mould for your lighter loads.

It is just going to work better.

Randy

[trapper9260]

Trapper: the problem is the base of the boolit sealing the bore. With a GC boolit there is a space on the side of the boolit where gas can get a head start on bypassing the boolit,,, which causes leading,,, similar to what Bevel Based Boolits do when driven too hard.

Obviously the more pressure you have, the more likely you are to see this. You might be able to get your boolits to work OK with very light loads,,, but they are never going to be "that good." Simply because the boolit isn't designed to be used that way.

I have done it in the past with my light .44 Special Loads as I only had the one mould which was a Lee .429-240GC mould. It leaded like crazy even with light charges of 5 gr of Bullseye. That same Boolit with a gas check produced excellent accuracy with full power loads and 1 1/2" groups at 25 yards were routine. (S&W M29 8 3/8)

BUT,,,, That mould dropped at .429 and I sized the boolits at .429 with the Lee Tools, which was too small to begin with. This is what I was told to do back then as Cast Boolits.com didn't exist in 1978. That never caused a problem with Gas Checks installed simply because Gas Checks eliminate leading. A good reason to use them on guns prone to leading.

If I had read the Lyman Cast Boolit Handbook that I did have a little closer, I probably could have gotten those to work a little better.

However,,, You would be much better off "Biting the Boolit," so to speak, and obtaining a plain based boolit mould for your lighter loads.

It is just going to work better.

Randy

That explain it better.I see what you mean and also one thing I did over look is what you wrote about not usen the GC in a GC boolit.I know what you mean about to bite the boolit also.

[Outpost75]

Soft lead, 8-10 BHN, plainbased bullets were the standard for black powder calibers like the .32-20, .38-40 and .44-40 and work fine in revolvers at subsonic velocities up to about 1100 fps, and in rifles to about 1400 fps.

You can do the same thing with smokeless loads using appropriate light charges of pistol or shotgun powders which ignite easily and are tolerant of the free air space in the case. A charge of 7 grains of Bullseye with a 150-160 grain cast bullet gives about 1100 fps in a .30-'06, about 1200 fps in the .308 Win. and 1300 fps in the .30-30. The same 7 grains of Bullseye is a full charge load in the .45 Colt which gives about 1000 fps with a 250-grain bullet, and makes a nice "medium velocity" load in the .44 Magnum with a bullet of similar weight.

At today's powder prices getting 1000 rounds to a pound is attractive.

[kenyerian]

Soft lead, 8-10 BHN, plainbased bullets were the standard for black powder calibers like the .32-20, .38-40 and .44-40 and work fine in revolvers at subsonic velocities up to about 1100 fps, and in rifles to about 1400 fps.

You can do the same thing with smokeless loads using appropriate light charges of pistol or shotgun powders which ignite easily and are tolerant of the free air space in the case. A charge of 7 grains of Bullseye with a 150-160 grain cast bullet gives about 1100 fps in a .30-'06, about 1200 fps in the .308 Win. and 1300 fps in the .30-30. The same 7 grains of Bullseye is a full charge load in the .45 Colt which gives about 1000 fps with a 250-grain bullet, and makes a nice "medium velocity" load in the .44 Magnum with a bullet of similar weight.

At today's powder prices getting 1000 rounds to a pound is attractive.
Plus one on today's powder prices.

[popper]

Trapper: the problem is the base of the boolit sealing the bore. With a GC boolit there is a space on the side of the boolit where gas can get a head start on bypassing the boolit,,, which causes leading,,, similar to what Bevel Based Boolits do when driven too hard.
Not so sure about this. I shoot a boolit with all but 0.020" of the GC shank removed to 2100 in 300BO with accuracy. I will state they are coated, not grease lubed but one I shot with just veggy oil did well. IMHO it's more of the long shank getting riveted off center with stout loads.

[44man]

A GC has only one function. It halts skid at the base so the grooves from the rifling are not larger then the barrel grooves. That seals the bore. Lead alone if tough enough will do the same.
The GC does not "protect" the base from melting and does not remove leading. It might prevent slump from a soft boolit base shank not supported.
However leaving it off certain boolits will reduce the length while other boolits will work.
I shot the 30-30 TC with cast good enough to hit pennies at 100 from a rest with a scope. But leaving the GC off had sideways holes at 50.
I do not think a BB lets gas past but just changes the length. Shooting a .357 with a BB was not good so I removed it from the mold to see a vast increase in accuracy. I had no leading either way.
I will forever believe it is match to twist first.
I have never considered boolit length or weight for twist, just the drive length. Even a long bore ride does not change what is in contact with rifling unless you slump it. Can of worms with teeth! If the nose slumps you need a vast increase in velocity for the twist. Or a much faster twist rate.
Yes I know, all formulas work on length but have you ever seen a formula work?
Would a .30 bullet of 150 gr with X drive be different from a 180 with X drive? Or does the 180 with Y drive change it?162420 Cast from the 30-30 TC at 100, boolits turned sideways at 50 without the GC.

[bangerjim]

If you are worried about leading from gasses creeping by the GC base (with no GC), try powder coating your boolits. I have shot many thousands of GC base boolits (223-45) with no check but with powder coating. The coating adds protection not only to the drive bands (eliminating the need for any grease lube), but to the back side of the boolit and can minimize/eliminate your worries. I have not had any leading in my many guns in over 3½ years with PC'd cast projectiles in all the above listed cal's..

Just another tool in your bag-o-tricks to use.

Good luck!

banger

[44man]

Leading is a curse but even a lube that does not lead can be the worst you can use.
I have a hard time here with guys looking to only stop leading. If you have no lead in the barrel, does it shoot best? NOT, more comes into play.
PC is being pushed out of sight, what does it really do? Makes a boolit larger for fit? Better friction control in the bore? I don't know.

[dverna]

If you have the mold, load up 50 and try them. Most cat sneeze loads are low velocity and low pressure. You may be just fine.

If if you do not have a mold, determine what you want and see if anyone here will give/sell you some bullets to try.

BTW, bangerjim has done a lot of work with PC. Not saying you need to PC, but that is another option. It would sure beat adding GC's for plinking ammo.

Don

[44man]

How much do you save? Bear with me because I do not know. You need to buy PC and pay postage, then add more work and time to do them.. When does PC get less then GG's?

[tazman]

If you buy the good powder, between the powder and a small oven to bake the pc you have about $35 invested. Basically the cost of 1000 gas checks. If you use the dry tumble method, you have no further investment other than your time.
The powder will coat several thousand boolits. I am not certain of the exact quantity since I have yet to finish up a pound of powder.
Basically you get your money back by the time you coat 1 thousand boolits.

[Geezer in NH]

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?48857-Gas-Check-Boolits-without-Gas-checks

[44man]

If you buy the good powder, between the powder and a small oven to bake the pc you have about $35 invested. Basically the cost of 1000 gas checks. If you use the dry tumble method, you have no further investment other than your time.
The powder will coat several thousand boolits. I am not certain of the exact quantity since I have yet to finish up a pound of powder.
Basically you get your money back by the time you coat 1 thousand boolits.
OK, sounds reasonable. Better then waiting for the next mining ship from the asteroid belt!
I really hate buying the things so I made most molds PB, work just fine in the 45-70, .475 and .500's. And believe me, I am driving them. I never had a problem with PB in the .44 either but most molds are cut for a GC.
If you leave the check off, you can usually fiddle the velocity to get good results.
I had not done enough at the time and my first mold for the .475 was the Lee 400 gr.,PB and I wondered why until I shot them. I then made two molds of 420 gr, one PB and the other for a check. Both boolits are almost exactly the same. The PB takes 1/2 gr more powder with no problems but the GC version must be reduced or brass gets sticky. I have no explanation however at the sticky brass condition I got almost one hole groups at 50 yards.
I don't know what it would do if I leave the check off.

[bangerjim]

How much do you save? Bear with me because I do not know. You need to buy PC and pay postage, then add more work and time to do them.. When does PC get less then GG's?

You save the cost of the grease lube + the time brewing it + the cost of a very expensive grease lubra-matic (if you don't already have one) + the frustration of sticky boolits in the summer + breathing grease smoke at the range + potential time mining lead out of your barrels.

PC is not a magic genie in a bottle and will not cure incorrectly sized boolits, but it does work EXTEMELY WELL and is the cutting edge of our hobby today. More & more commercial suppliers are now offering "polymer jacketed" boolits, exactly the same things we PC'ers all make!

Do what fits your needs, but PC is a clean modern alternative to grease. Many do both, depending on their guns, their needs, and their applications.

banger

[W.R.Buchanan]

Is anyone seeing any advanced barrel wear from Powder Coated Boolits?

Randy

[bangerjim]

No. And NO. Many times answered on here.

There are even scientific statements saying it will not cause wear. Copper is far tougher on a barrel than PC....."polymer jacketed" as we now call them :-P. Olde Wives' Tales abound on the internet.

bangerjim

[W.R.Buchanan]

Good, I had no idea, that's why I asked.

I may have to try this out sometime.

Randy