Selling reloads

[flyer1]

I had an individual tell me that he was thinking of loading up and selling reloads at his cost for a friend. I told him I did not think that was legal as the federal tax was not being paid and I thought one needed some kind of a FFL to manufacture ammo to sell. Seems to me that I read something about this here. He wanted to see it in writing. I also said the liability was very big. I just do not want him to get in trouble with anyone. Could some one point me in the right direction, please? He said his expert FFL told him it was ok. I am thinking he was given some bad info.

I think he would be better off teaching his friend to reload.

Thanks folks.

[DerekP Houston]

I had an individual tell me that he was thinking of loading up and selling reloads at his cost for a friend. I told him I did not think that was legal as the federal tax was not being paid and I thought one needed some kind of a FFL to manufacture ammo to sell. Seems to me that I read something about this here. He wanted to see it in writing. I also said the liability was very big. I just do not want him to get in trouble with anyone. Could some one point me in the right direction, please? He said his expert FFL told him it was ok. I am thinking he was given some bad info.

I think he would be better off teaching his friend to reload.

Thanks folks.

I wouldn't do it from the liability stand point. But from a brief search it appears all he needs is this:

Type 06 - MANUFACTURER OF AMMUNITION FOR FIREARMS
other than ammunition for destructive devices or armor piercing ammunition. 18 U.S.C 923(a)(1)(C)
Fee: $30.00 for three (3) years. Application: ATF Form 7 (5310.12)

Without the license it is illegal to sell. He could probably get around it by having said friend purchase the components.

[Tackleberry41]

The license to make ammo is not the issue, its the bond you have to put up, plus your insurance company. Few home owners policies would cover this sort of thing. Do it on the sly and something happens they wont cover it, tell em and they will more likely say no or really jack up your raters. The bond is for the liability, it was several hundred grand. Even having the friend buy the components and you do the work still leaves one liable. Seems like a nice thing to do for someone, until something goes wrong.

[toallmy]

Never , for the liability reasons would I load ammo for sale even to a friend . Invite to load together or shared components but if you hand someone a loaded round you assume the responsibility of what that person does with it . Blows up the gun , accidental misfired and shoots someone wile clearing the weapon , to long of a list to think about .

[Smoke4320]

Now required to have a ITAR license Starts at $2250.00 A YEAR .. even if he never intends to export .. Plus a Million dollar plus liability policy .. NOT cost effective

To align registration fees with the cost of licensing, compliance and other related activities, the Department adopted a three-tier registration fee schedule in September 2008, and modified the fee requirements for brokers who consolidate their broker registration with their manufacturer/exporter registration on October 25, 2013, to account for amendments to ITAR Part 129.* The schedule is as follows:


The first tier is an annual flat fee of $2,250.00. The first tier fee is applicable to:

First time registrants (Manufacturer, Exporters and stand-alone Brokers);
Annual registration renewals for stand-alone Brokers (U.S. and foreign owned or controlled by U.S. persons);
Registrants who did not submit any license applications or request for authorization during the twelve month period, ending 90 days prior to the expiration of the current registration.


The second tier is a set fee of $2,750 for registrants renewing their registration who have submitted and received a favorable authorization on ten or fewer license applications or request for authorization during a twelve month period, ending 90 days prior to the expiration of their current registration.
3. The third tier is a calculated fee for registrants who have submitted and received favorable authorization on more than ten license applications or request for authorization during the twelve month period, ending 90 days prior to the expiration of the current registration. For these registrants, the fee calculation is $2,750 plus $250 times the total number of applications over ten. To ensure fairness to those registrants who may fall within the third tier who may have many applications but all of a low value, there is a provision for a reduced fee if the fee calculated above is greater than 3 percent of the total value of all applications. In such cases, the fee will be 3 percent of the total value of all applications or $2,750, whichever is greater.

[grumman581]

I would prefer to invite the friend over and allow him to use my equipment, but he provide his own components. Of course, when you come over to a person's house and he is nice enough to allow you to use his reloading equipment, he should bring beer for both of you to consume, right?

[lefty o]

basically, his expert friend is an idiot. ffl required, plus a pretty dang good insurance policy.

[toallmy]

So many people have asked me over my lifetime to load them up some (cheap ) ammo that I have learned how to deal with it . Most often the people don't understand what is involved in it . By the way what I consider my loading as custom loading . When you invite them over to do some of the work it takes most can't put in the time . That is why there is store bought ammo . Still willing to help upcoming loaders , but not willing to do it for them . By the way that reminds me to get my Speer reloading manual back from the last fella still undecided about loading his own . Good luck , and be safe.

[Parson]

I have had a type 6 ffl for about 35 years, so I know a little. If the customer provides the brass you do not need to pay the 11% excise tax but you do need the ffl regardless who provides what.

[NavyVet1959]

My nephew was curious about reloading, so I invited him over to show him how to do it. He brought beer. :)

Eventually, he bought his own Hornady press and set up his own reloading room. He doesn't cast though.

[Teddy (punchie)]

If they ask I tell them to help me clean up area. They can set equipment and I'll double check, then they can load, record, and leave a tip on the table top.

Only time that we used it was by group of friends, we load around 12 boxes of shotgun and shot clay birds. They took turns and only messed up about 5, single stage mec. We had a good time.

[bangerjim]

NEVER load for others (to sell) or shoot anyone else's reloads! Unless you are right there watching while they are doing the loading! Never trust ANYONE!

Not worth the liability!

[flyer1]

Thank you very much. Ya'll confirmed what I thought but for different reasons. I really am glad for all the information that folks are willing to share. The depth of knowledge here is amazing. Thanks again.

[flyingmonkey35]

No one knows how some one will really react when they get hurt or the firearm is damaged.

I can tell you from experience. They will want money from you if something goes wrong. Even if it is dead set they screwed up.

I no longer load for my family or friends. And just tell people that if they want some they can buy it from the store or buy the equipment. And do it themselves.

I also don't shoot other peoples guns for the Same reason.

If its not mine and I'm not wanting to buy it I'm not shooting it.

[RayinNH]

I would prefer to invite the friend over and allow him to use my equipment, but he provide his own components. Of course, when you come over to a person's house and he is nice enough to allow you to use his reloading equipment, he should bring beer for both of you to consume, right?

Exactly, but after the reloading is done. :wink:

[bedbugbilly]

I have one rule . . . I don't let others shoot my reloads and I don't shoot theirs.

The product liability policy would be enough to make your teeth chatter and anyone thinking that their homeowner's policy would even begin to cover this needs to sit down and read their policy. If a person were going to do it "seriously", they are going to need some pretty hefty start up capital. If someone wants to shoot cheaper ammo . . . let them my the remanufactured or new off the shelf . . . it's not worth the risk of losing everything you have should something go awry even if it is a friend . . . friends and their loved ones may take an accident very seriously when filling a civil suit for injury or loss of future income/security should something go wrong.

[lightman]

When ask, I get around this by telling them that I really don't have the time. Then I mention the liability. Then I suggest that they can buy the components and come over so that I can teach them and let them do it. If I don't have dies for their caliber I also suggest that they buy dies with their components. One or the other of these suggestions usually squashes the idea! If they go for it, we usually have a new reloader added to the fold.

I wonder how much insurance would cost to manufacture ammo. I carry a 1 million dollar liability policy on my electrical business and its pretty cheap. Of course it would take forever to pay it when making a few cents per round loading ammo! Not that I'm going there, just idle curiosity.

[Outer Rondacker]

I tell everyone I know who asks me to reload for them this. Reloading cost more money then just buying ammo off the shelf. They say what. I tell them the highest price consumables and they are turned off. Why do you do it I always get asked. Its a hobby I say. Plus I load for guns where ammo cost a lot of money.

[flyingmonkey35]

I tell everyone I know who asks me to reload for them this. Reloading cost more money then just buying ammo off the shelf. They say what. I tell them the highest price consumables and they are turned off. Why do you do it I always get asked. Its a hobby I say. Plus I load for guns where ammo cost a lot of money.
Amen to that I could not afford to shoot my 45 long colt at $1.05 a round. For factory load's.

Everyone just stare s at me in disbelief until they look it up.

Btw I do let people shoot my black powder stuff. Technical y that's a reload. [emoji79]

[Blackwater]

I'm with lightfield on this. I've done some for others way back when, but if you just tell them you don't have the time, and require them to purchase their own components, you quickly find that they were just trying to cheap out on the ammo and aren't seriously wanting to learn anything. I find it rather curious how so many "friends" will take advantage of you these days, but .... well, it IS the "new millenium" I guess? Mostly, these questions are just an impulse, though, and aren't very serious at all. Lightfield's approach probably deals with it best, I think, and puts it in an honest and proper perspective for the ones that ask, since most have no idea what all is involved. If it's a kid who asks, and I know he's financially challenged, I've always caved, and just tried to get them over to watch what all is involved, and explain WHY each step has to be done the way it's done. That helps get them interested. Once interested, they'll usually get into it, and thus, the field grows with yet one more young fella' in our crowd. And when he takes part in the ammo making, he tends to shoot better, simply because he's REALLY wanting to see what "Ol' Betsy" really CAN do! Teach them to work up loads incrementally, and the light bulb tends to go off, and the fascination begins. Then you know they're hooked, and all you have to do is reel 'em in. Works just about every time, and tends to me 'em better shots as well. It all starts with a little curisity, and grows to the point that they become "one of us."

[Outer Rondacker]

If anyone looks at the NYS Armslist you will see load of morons selling reloads. 223 ammo out the wazoo. The best one is from todays list of a guy selling 9mm mtm boxes full for 22 dollars a box. LOL Berry's plated. He does not even own a powder measure or a scale he uses lee scoops. Quality loads he states.

I am going to share a story. I have a friend who knows everything and he quit school in 9th grade. Anyone have one of them friends? Anywho, he saw I was into reloading and wanted ammo. This was years ago and I will admit I did make him a box for a gift. He then could not understand why he was able to shoot a much better group with my ammo then factory Federal. I said it was the way it was made. So he got a press (Lee Turret used) and picked up a set of dies. Calls me one night and asks what charge I was using in the load he had shot. I told him not knowing he had got a press. A few days later I get a call how do you make this die work it keeps messing up the case. ???? what die? I then headed over to see his set up. Powder all over the place. Some dollar store electric scale. I said did you read the instructions or even the beginning of the reloaders book you are using to see how to set things up. What book he replies. As he scrapes the powder he has spilt off his table. He was messing with two different loads one using H110 the other using IMR4227. He then put the powder in his hopper. I wish I had owned a phone with a camera and could have taken a picture. Primers all over the table on the floor. Hot ones not spent ones. As far as I know he still does not own a book gets all his data off the internet from forums. Lead bullets are evil as he tried them once and leaded everything up. Still scrapes left over powder off the table. Two years ago when ammo was hard to get he was selling green tip 223 HOT loads for 450 dollars per 1k. He has messed up a few of his guns. Nothing to bad yet but it was still due to his reloads.

Hotter hotter faster faster. I can load this gun to out shoot this other gun. Yay to bad he cant hit the same frigging hole twice out of 30 shots. Bullets without powder due to kids playing with the press while he is on the phone. Can you tell I was pissed and still am to this day I get all worked up. The best one that gets me is he found online where a guy said Varget fills the case of a 223 for a good load. So that is what he does fills the case. NO SCALE NO SCOOP NO POWDER MEASURE. OK I am done sorry turned into a rant. But its a true story and on the light side if that.

I am going to add this, I did get a chuckle at his old lady screaming at him a few days later as she was running the VAC and BANG.

[flyer1]

Thanks for all the info. I passed the info on but, the info doesn't seem to be getting through. I do not know what he may do and I do not want to know. I did my due diligence. His FFL expert is his guide.

[bangerjim]

"There is one born every day"..............PT Barnum

[fatelk]

A friend brought over a big box full of .223 ammo last year that he had bought at a gun show during the height of the ammo scare. He said that the ones that would fire shot fine in his AR, but a lot of them just got stuck. I could tell at a glance that they were reloads.

We pulled them all apart. Some of the brass was way long and needed trimmed, some was short. After a trip through the full length sizer they all chambered fine, and we loaded them back up. I wasn't worried about the powder because he had fired some and from the looks of the empties they were loaded light. It was probably more trouble than it was worth, re-reloading 500 rounds of junk, but he learned to be careful to not buy other people's random reloads. Fortunately they were loaded light and not someone's "hot-loads" like I used to think I needed 25 years ago.

Not to denigrate others who abide by this rule, but I have a friend who once said he would never under any circumstances shoot anyone else's reloads, and would especially never let his kids shoot someone else's reloads. I asked him how often he let his kids ride in a car with someone other than mom or dad driving. He got a scared look for a second and said yeah, that's probably a lot more dangerous statistically. Again, not knocking that rule at all- just a different perspective.

I guess I figure if I'm confident enough in my loads to shoot them and let my own kids shoot them, I don't have a problem letting my friends and family shoot them. Sell them though? No thanks.

[Col4570]

Use Factory Ammo or your own Reloads,I have seen first hand what inexperienced Handloaders can do.One here Blew two Rifles up by mixing Pistol and Rifle Powder,the results where extraordinary.The Pressure was so great that it Brazed the Shells in the Chambers.The Mauser separated at the Frame to Barrel Thread and launched the Barrel down Range.A few Months later he Blew a Howa up with the same results plus the Scope disintegrated.In both cases he miraculously escaped serious injury.It makes one think when someone at the range might say,"here try one of these".

[lightman]

It looks like we've gotten away from selling reloads and moved to shooting others reloads or letting others shoot ours. My thoughts on this are that my Wife and Boys shot mine for years. I'm comfortable with this. One Son has gotten into reloading, and one has not. I'm comfortable with letting others shoot my loads, but not with selling them, and I won't load for others. I'll also shoot reloads made by a chosen few friends, including my Son's. After all I'm the one that taught him!

[toallmy]

Yes I am comfortable with my , and my shooting buddy's loaded ammo . We have shot and loaded together for years . And since I started casting we are doing a lot more handgun loading , and shooting .

[Tackleberry41]

I just wonder how many of these random ammo sellers go thru any of the paperwork required, or just start making ammo, hoping nobody ever asks. I guess that is the question, does anybody even ask? Or so long as a lawyer is never involved can make ammo for years with impunity?

Some I wonder how they manage to make any ammo. I go visit my friend, trying to make super wombat ammo for his 308. No case lube, some RCBS spritz bottle that didn't work, or barely worked. Had 3 sets of 308 dies, 2 tore up for whatever reason. No case trimmer, wanted me to bring mine. He was making 300blackout recently, said he found a 'load' for subsonic. Okay whats the velocity, no idea. It would cycle the gun and hit the target. Told him he needs a better scale, ran them over my chrony, ones I measured were 940fps or so while others were starting to crack, so a wide variation in velocity.

Funny he works at a gun shop, and builds ARs. Hes the expert everybody asks.

[Outer Rondacker]

Next thing you know he is broke his stuff is for sale on Armslist and some fool buys it and gets hurt. That falls under selling ammo. Or he gets tired of it and takes it to a gun show and sells it as a bundle and his ammo sucks. Gets some one hurt. Still falls under selling a reload.

There are many ways unsafe ammo can get in the hands of unsuspecting shooters.

I for one would not reload and sell for what it cost me even if I was going to brake the laws. Kinda pointless.......

Tackleberry I have met more gun shop workers who do not know squat about guns. Even more lately that thing the only gun in the world is a ar15.

[trapper9260]

I had some that ask me to reload for them and I tell them that they need to get all the supplies and if I have the dies ok other wise if I buy the dies I own them but if they do they own them and that they need to be with me to reload all he wants.That stop them there.Then I have some that say they like to learn how to do reloading I tell them to get the Lyman reload book and then after let me know if they still want to learn it and then go form there.Not many willing to go that far.So I do not care if they do or not.If they do not want to go with what I let them know about then that is there problem. I also told some about liability also.They did not care for that also.As for some say about cast to me that it is not good to shoot out of your gun ,well that more lead for me to find easy.

[Lance Boyle]

There are a few guys whose reloads I would shoot. My gunsmith friend and a couple others who are in deep. The run of the mill gun club associate, thanks but no, I'm on a mission today!

I had one coworker keep badgering me to load for him. Decent enough guy but he was motivated by the high cost of his cartridge and also wanted top of the line techno bullets. He had a weatherby something or other and really wanted to stop paying for those factory shells. He offered to buy the dies and stuff. I politely told him no.

Some time later he goes at it again and adds in he's not really satisfied with some factory ammo. Wants max loads. I lol'd at him. No expletive way. I counted off the many reasons; liability, if anything went wrong he might not sue me but his kids might, and especially so that he was already in a hot cartridge and wanted to redline it in used brass. I offered him access and I'd walk him through and assist/teach him going right from the manual but he wasn't interested. He was a long time auto mechanic so I hit him up with a legal liability for his work. That he got and understood and he never badgered me again on it. The offer to come over and load was still there I told him. He kept buying ammo instead at I think $70 a box then. I wanted to help but damn there is only so much a guy can do.

[Smoke4320]

Lance That was a smart move .. and you are right he might not sure you but the wife and/or kids very well could/would ..
If The ATF gets involved because of an reload accident and finds out you sold him the reloads your royally screwed

[trapper9260]

Lance That was a smart move .. and you are right he might not sure you but the wife and/or kids very well could/would ..
If The ATF gets involved because of an reload accident and finds out you sold him the reloads your royally screwed

So true Smoke .
Lance you did good ,I learn one thing is cover your own ''' .No one else will if something gose wrong.

[Thin Man]

A lot of these examples spoke about new handloaders and non-loaders. They know everything and nothing all at the same time. They are an accident waiting to happen with their own press and components. That said, even experienced loaders can have the occasional lapse in their work. I have a friend who has been loading rifle and handgun ammo about 40 years. He is a Marine sniper (retired) who genuinely enjoys shooting all manner of firearms, and is pretty dang good at it. Several years ago he bought a S&W 1917 revolver in 45 ACP. Anxious to get it out to the range he saddled up to his loading bench and cracked open one of his manuals. Found the boolit weight he was going to load and read the powder charge weight (probably maximum) for the powder he planned to use. He built a box of ammo and soon found himself at the range. When he fired the first round his thought was "I don't remember this pistol and caliber combination having so much recoil." He fired a second round with the same experience. When he fired the third round, things got bad. The topstrap and top half of the cylinder took off and landed probably 2 zip codes away from where he was standing! He packed up and went home to consider what had caused this upset with his handloading. As he passed by his bench he gazed at the reloading manual. While he intended to handload 45 ACP ammo, his manual was open in the 45 Colt section. The pistol was destroyed, but the shooter was physically unhurt. That is, all except his ego and reputation among the range users. Now - for a fast forward. How would this experience have ended if he had been loading those rounds for another person and their firearm? I suspect we all know the answer to that question.

Thin Man