Soft cast lead & gas checks for hunting?

[aephilli822]

Waksupi, please forgive my blatant plagiarism of you signature, but it brings a question to mind.


The solid soft lead bullet is undoubtably the best and most satisfactory expanding bullet that has ever been designed. It invariably mushrooms perfectly, and never breaks up. With the metal base that is essential for velocities of 2000 f.s. and upwards to protect the naked base, these metal-based soft lead bullets are splendid.
John Taylor - "African Rifles and Cartridges"

Does this mean that soft cast (mostly lead) boolits with a good gas check are useable, or by "metal base" did he mean a jacket extending halfway or more up the sides of the projectile?


(if the former is the case, I won't have to find so much tin to go with all this soft lead I have....)

[Mica_Hiebert]

try it and report back...

[dverna]

Bear in mind that the book was published in 1949. There are better options now - depending on the caliber you are using.

There are distinct differences between useable, adequate, and preferred.

Don Verna

[quilbilly]

Gas checked bolts work extraordinarily well as a hunting boolit. You still have to have the tin though. Tin makes mold fallout easier to achieve.

[aephilli822]

I was also thinking about Elmer Keith saying one of his favorite 45/70 loads for thin skinned game was the 405 gr soft lead (jacketed) bullet.

I guess maybe what I'm trying to figure out is "how soft is too soft?"

[.22-10-45]

The British were the first to use a "metal-base" or gas-check on their lead bullets...regardless of Mr. Barlows claims. They are pictured in Wrights book The British Double Rifle. They appear to be nearly 1/4" long. Even better than these are bullets as soft as pure lead and paper-patched..these can be driven faster with no fear of leading.

[44man]

Get too soft and you have problems. It all depends on the gun and caliber. Nothing better then pure in a ML. But can you hit or prevent leading with smokeless?
I don't think anything is better then a pure ball from a ML but to get soft to shoot from a .44, etc just means a bucket of rocks tossed is better.

[quilbilly]

Get too soft and you have problems. It all depends on the gun and caliber. Nothing better then pure in a ML. But can you hit or prevent leading with smokeless?
I don't think anything is better then a pure ball from a ML but to get soft to shoot from a .44, etc just means a bucket of rocks tossed is better.
I agree. There is nothing better than PRB of soft pure for hunting with a muzzleloader for deer in my .45 Seneca. Pure soft in a 429 saboted conical in my .50 is absolutely devastating on elk and the boolit is rarely found unless it hits a major bone even at a terminal velocity of 1000 fps. That being said, how can it be that soft lead be poorer than a bucket of rocks in a 44.
I do prefer a slightly harder alloy with a gas check in my smokeless powder rifles (i.e. 22 Hornet, 250 Sav, 308, etc.) simply because it performs a bit better accuracy wise. Not so hard an alloy that it prevents expansion though.

[Lead Fred]

Soft lead should refer to paper patching or cloth patching of round ball.
15-17bhn is ideal for casting, but hardly soft. Thats what I gas check.
Even for paper patching, I dont use pure lead. 20:1 is what is used.

[aephilli822]

so, either buy a flintlock, or some tin.....

(taking bets on how long it takes someone to say "both!")

[fastdadio]

Buy both!



That was bout 1 hour......:cbpour:

[Digital Dan]

Pure lead, 1600 fps, no gas check...but patched in paper....44 mag....dead deer. It was a trauma horror show inside.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v298/muddler/Guns/PaperPatchDeer009_zps3a52d58c.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/muddler/media/Guns/PaperPatchDeer009_zps3a52d58c.jpg.html)

Flyers are a problem.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v298/muddler/Guns/627b4656-cd5c-45f5-a12c-e336e1f16dcd_zpsi3ucunrq.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/muddler/media/Guns/627b4656-cd5c-45f5-a12c-e336e1f16dcd_zpsi3ucunrq.jpg.html)

[Ole Joe Clarke]

Dan,
Yea, I can see the flyers were really bad. :-)

[44man]

Horror show is where I quit, ruined a lot of meat. The .44 will work with hard and can turn a deer to a rag. I still work at it after hundreds of deer.
That is fine shooting and paper patching works but I am not prepared to make a mold or get into it. Yet, you have a bomb in a deer.162025 Neck shot with a 22 BHN .44 boolit.
How about a .22 BHN boolit from my JRH with a little softer nose? 162026
Entrance hole, front shoulder and ruined the whole neck before exit.
I dread to see pure from a .44! Sometimes I like something to eat. I never stop a boolit in a deer either.
Each and every revolver I hunt with needs a little change. I still screw up.

[Tatume]

Sometimes I like to use a soft bullet too, although I mostly hunt with hard bullets. However, when I want a soft here is my strategy. Load a batch with hard bullets and a few soft, all from the same mold. Go to the range and shoot a group with the hard bullets, then shoot one soft. If it goes into the group, you're in fine shape.

Soft bullets are more likely to leave lead deposits. Once I have determined that my gun will shoot soft to the same point of aim as hard, I clean the gun, and shoot a few hard bullets to condition the bore. Then I take it hunting loaded with soft. One soft bullet will get the job done, and who cares about leading? Just clean the gun later and repeat.

[Wardo1974]

I use pure lead in my .45-70 and .38-55 for deer and bear. The boolits are accurate at the modest velocities I push them too, and work great on game.

[Digital Dan]

Curiosity it is, this terminal ballistics thing. Bullet pic I posted above broke a foreleg and 2 ribs inbound, cut the heart in half, broke 3 ribs on the way out and then the offside leg. Found under the skin on the off side. Other than the mess inside the rib cage there was no particular carnage to the rest. Would'a thought a fella needed a 106mm recoiless rifle to replicate the pics 44Man posted.

I did shoot an armadillo with that load once. It was head on as he charged. To this day I'm not certain if it was the bullet or his brain that went out the back end first. Weren't much left for the mess kit.

[44man]

I am always amazed at what a little change will do. I started hunting with the JRH and deer were going 100-120 yards with just a hole, no blood trails. Killed them but in most places here they will be out of sight FAST.
I made half the nose softer but feared pure so I mixed 3# or pure with 1# of WW lead. Deer started to drop at the shot but I dare not hit big bones. I screwed up on the deer shown, I was leading her but she stopped as the hammer dropped so I hit the front shoulder.
The leg bone was broken into huge chunks and torn loose from muscle and all the white stuff in the picture are bone chips. Like the old Minie' ball, hit in the arm or leg and lose them.
This is just the JRH but some want a .500 S&W and need a soft HP! Watermelons are fun. I am too big for deer as it is, the .475 must be the best with instant drops and less meat damage with full hard boolits.
I still love the .44 and don't want smaller. I don't want a .454, .460 or .500 S&W, I am already crazy enough!

[aephilli822]

I use pure lead in my .45-70 and .38-55 for deer and bear. The boolits are accurate at the modest velocities I push them too, and work great on game.
with or without gas checks? what are the velocities? what mold/weight boolits? thanks for the info

[Wardo1974]

with or without gas checks? what are the velocities? what mold/weight boolits? thanks for the info

First of all, you should now that I powdercoated these. My initial plan was paper patching, and had a good boolit supply for that. I struggled with doing it properly though, so I tried the PC, and I found it works incredibly well. Pure lead boolits at any velocity with the PC, and I've never had leading as a problem, and I find them quite accurate.

Browning 1886 .45-70, with an RCBS 405 FN, gas checked. Pure lead comes out of the mold at 415 or so. I am pushing it with 35 grains of IMR4198 for about 1550 fps. With the pure lead, fired into a block of oak firewood, it will penetrate 6 inches - when you split open the log, the boolit has expanded to the size of a silver dollar (and still has the PC stuck all over it). #2 alloy will completely drill through the piece, 18 inches or more. That's no good to me, I wanted expansion and this fits the bill.

This fall, I had a chance to use this load for the first time. I was deer hunting, and a bear for unknown reasons ran past my stand at high speed (no idea why, I was quite surprised). I fired at him 7 times, pop-pop-pop (I was glad I had my tube filled with 10 of these rounds) and hit him 4 times. Chances are good the first shot would have ended it, but it was still moving and I wanted to be sure. The first shot entered the side of his rib cage and exited the other side with a wound about the size of my closed fist. There is no doubt that boolit did its job. Missed the heart but made mash of its lungs. The second shot entered about the same place and exited the sternum area. Again, same gaping exit wound. My next shot took off the toes of his rear foot. Final shot was in the side of the head (bear was down by now, but still squirming, and I was jacked up...I had run up to it and decided I should do the coup de grace). The final shot shattered the skull of the bear, again with the huge hole. After seeing the damage wrought by this load, I have complete confidence in it next year for bear and deer again. And out of my 1886, I find it a pussycat to shoot...doesn't kick at all. My Dad was over the hill and heard me shooting and said the shots sounded like they came out of a semi-auto.

.38-55 is a 260FP, also gas checked. Same story as above - powdercoated. Pushed by 32 grains of IMR3031 to about 1650 fps. I haven't actually taken game with this one yet.

Each of these guns will keep the shots under 2" at 50 yards, with the .38-55 being particularly accurate, doing 1" reliably. This is off a picnic table. I am tickled with the performance of the PC and pure lead combo. Neither one leads whatsoever.

[44man]

The 45-70 and most BP cartridges even with smokeless, kept at the slower speeds are at home with softer lead but I would add a little tin. There is no doubt they work.
I am sure you will see some bad damage from them too.
Really depends on where you hit, double lung shots can't be beat.
Up until a few years ago I had no trouble placing shots right to 120 yards, off hand with any gun but age and shoulder injuries are making it harder so I look for at least arm rests now.
I killed many, many deer with .45 flint locks and then a .50 but can say for sure a bone hit with a .54 RB can be as nasty as a .300 Weatherby.
Trying to reach a balance is hard and I much prefer my meat grinder for burger.
I hate to clean blood shot meat, it doubles time to butcher. The reason I sold my .280, even lung shots made a mess from head to tail.
Maybe there is no such thing as "TOO DEAD!" But darn when you pull a hide and see what happened, I have to step back some.
A friend and I both have killed deer right now with C&B revolvers with RB's at 1100 fps or so. Who woulda thunk? :bigsmyl2:

[44man]

How much power do you need for penetration?
Once I was lapping a Minie" mold for a better fit in a musket, fit was perfect as I thumbed it in the muzzle but it got stuck. A puller just expanded it and made it tighter so I pushed it all the way down, removed the nipple and worked some powder in. Replaced the nipple and capped it.
I put the muzzle close to the 2X4 bench leg, got a pop and sliding noise, I felt the ball go under my hand on the barrel and it popped out the end. That thing buried full depth in the 2X4.
What would you figure, 1/2 gr of powder? It could kill a man!
Today you need 2000 fps or more. You can't shoot a .454 unless you get 1800 +.
I firmly believe in placing energy for quick kills, yet to balance energy with penetration is more work.
I know you fellas bear with me on this. I have killed somewhere around 560 deer with everything that can be shot and seen anything and everything.
I learned penetration with archery. Stick an arrow half way in and track for hours, hundreds of yards. Put a heavy arrow through and watch them fall close, at least hear them crash. Two holes work even with only 80 foot pounds of energy.

[Wardo1974]

How much power do you need for penetration?
Once I was lapping a Minie" mold for a better fit in a musket, fit was perfect as I thumbed it in the muzzle but it got stuck. A puller just expanded it and made it tighter so I pushed it all the way down, removed the nipple and worked some powder in. Replaced the nipple and capped it.
I put the muzzle close to the 2X4 bench leg, got a pop and sliding noise, I felt the ball go under my hand on the barrel and it popped out the end. That thing buried full depth in the 2X4.
What would you figure, 1/2 gr of powder? It could kill a man!
Today you need 2000 fps or more. You can't shoot a .454 unless you get 1800 +.
I firmly believe in placing energy for quick kills, yet to balance energy with penetration is more work.
I know you fellas bear with me on this. I have killed somewhere around 560 deer with everything that can be shot and seen anything and everything.
I learned penetration with archery. Stick an arrow half way in and track for hours, hundreds of yards. Put a heavy arrow through and watch them fall close, at least hear them crash. Two holes work even with only 80 foot pounds of energy.

I'm on-board with this. They say that more deer were felled with the .30-30 or .44-40 than any other rifle, and neither of these are magnums. 100 years ago, these and other similar chamberings were more than good enough. Dead is dead, right? Why the need for the short magnum whatevers?

At my camp, 10 guys hunt each bear and deer season, and we're traditionalists, even if many of us are on the young side. The majority of the guys use .45-70s. The only bolt action in the place is mine - a Savage .30-06 I got for foul weather hunting.

The .45-70s with traditional loadings has proven again and again and again to be more than sufficient. One-shot kills are the norm with this old boy, and nobody feels the need to push for maximum power. A healthy percentage of deer have been taken here also with .38-55s, another popular chambering our way. Just as it did 100 years ago, it stops deer today. What more does a man need?

[44man]

I'm on-board with this. They say that more deer were felled with the .30-30 or .44-40 than any other rifle, and neither of these are magnums. 100 years ago, these and other similar chamberings were more than good enough. Dead is dead, right? Why the need for the short magnum whatevers?

At my camp, 10 guys hunt each bear and deer season, and we're traditionalists, even if many of us are on the young side. The majority of the guys use .45-70s. The only bolt action in the place is mine - a Savage .30-06 I got for foul weather hunting.

The .45-70s with traditional loadings has proven again and again and again to be more than sufficient. One-shot kills are the norm with this old boy, and nobody feels the need to push for maximum power. A healthy percentage of deer have been taken here also with .38-55s, another popular chambering our way. Just as it did 100 years ago, it stops deer today. What more does a man need?
One of the best posts here. How about a repeat story about the lowly 30-30? friend shot one and killed a deer. I had two on the ground so he drove his 4 wheel truck to pick them up. He did not gut until he got home!!!! He backed to my truck to toss my deer in but got his and I heard a PLOP, PLOP on the drive. Got my light and found a heart from his 30-30 kill. I told him to get MY deer and put his back.
Yeah, a heart fell out of his deer through the hole blasted.

[aephilli822]

First of all, you should now that I powdercoated these. .....

(edited so folks don't have to read the whole thing again)

thanks for all the info, very helpful. and thanks to everyone

(since I wasn't paying attention to swap and sell, missed a great deal on some tin :oops: )
anybody use the safe-flo? (Oatey product)
it is supposed to have some copper in it. nobody around here seems to have regular 95/5.
what do you guys recommend, use solder or just get some tin? I do have some "hard shot" to alloy with to help harden the mix.

[Geezer in NH]

I'm on-board with this. They say that more deer were felled with the .30-30 or .44-40 than any other rifle,

The same writers then usually add and wounded more than that.

Deer must have evolved to be a super hard animal to kill. [sarcasm/off] Writers are to sell stuff for the advertisers that's why new cartridges are made add rifles and handguns also.