Starting over need a .454 recip

[Blackcat]

I just got the hang of using my reloading equipment then I stopped for a few years.
Now I have everything ready to go and i've lost my recipes.

I'm loading for a Taurus RB .454 revolver.

I don't really want a full house load (just to save wear and tear on the gun).

I have 1000 rounds of pristine never fired Starline brass.
5000 cci 400 small rifle primers
300 grain wfngc cast bullets
Gas checks
H110
Unique
Titegroup

I have the Hornady manual it mentions a max load of H110 300 grain bullet 1600 fps at 31.4 grains.

With the materials I have listed I want to make a good all around load (accurate and reliable)

I've read H110 can have issues igniting and cci 400 might be to small to fire it up ?
Some say use the cci magnum primers instead (thoughts?)

I've also read that H110 and small or soft bullets can wash out the cone (I also don't want that)

Any good loads ?

[DougGuy]

First off DO NOT download H110 below minimum published starting charges. H110 needs a high load density and heavy boolits. If you want less than a magnum load, research available data and find suitable powder recommendations from loading manuals or powder manufacturers.

Second, you can go to numerous online sources, like right to the powder manufacturer's site and find load data. MUCH SAFER than bumming around forums looking for someone's own personal data which may or may not be within guidelines published in loading manuals and published by powder manufacturers.

If a certain primer was dangerous or not recommended you won't see data with that primer listed. If you don't see a certain boolit weight or style it is because it isn't listed because it may not be recommended for the .454 cartridge. If you don't see a certain powder listed for .454 it is because it is NOT RECOMMENDED.

You have the right stuff to begin with, go to Hodgdon and search their reloading data for H110 in the .454 you will find everything you need.

Also, there is no need to start multiple threads on the same subject, as you can edit your posts as necessary.

DO run your new brass through a resizing/decapping die, you will need the case neck tension this will provide.

[Blackcat]

Did I start multiple threads ? Sorry that was unintentional, as I was typing it kept telling me I had just posted. It's never done that so I figured it was some sort of glitch :p

I think I should have been a little more specific. I do have the factory data... I was mostly wondering if I should jump right in at minimum or mid pressure factory loads and just work up from there or start at the max recommended load or if there was a better option.

Otherwise my plan is to jump right in with the Hornady mid level load (29. 8 grains H110 @ 1500 fps)

[Blackcat]

Now I remember why I hate reloading lol.
I do it because I can't afford to shoot otherwise with the cost of ammo these days but nothing gets me swearing up a storm more than reading about reloading.

Every other thing I read contradicts the last thing I read. I've spent by my best estimate well over a hundred hours of reading and it just goes in circles. Much of it even contradicts the factory data.

I remembered why I bought so many cci 400 small rifle primers. Because after many many hours of reading it seemed like the recomended primer for my use.

The factory data says Winchester small rifle but more people seem to prefer the cci.

Then theres people saying the factory primer data is wrong for .454.

Then some say use the winchester because its hotter than the cci.

Then others say there's no difference between the two.

Then people say you get squibs using cci 400.

Then others say cci 400 is all they ever used with no issues.

Then someone says it's all about capacity and a heavy roll crimp (thats why I bought the roll crimp die back in the day)

Some say its dangerous, some say its not...

See where this is going lol

If I recall... Back in the day my first few loads seemed decent but a few didnt ignite (just dented primers)
I've read that is common with cci and a thicker material...

I wont start my loads until I have this sorted out but it gives me one hell of a headache every time.

When it comes to reloading it feels like nothing matters because there is just as much info saying its correct as there is saying it's incorrect. Even the factory data doesnt seem reliable.

Until I can get some cci small rifle MAGNUM or winchester i'll probably leave the H110.

That leaves unique and titegroup... I'm currently going through the factory data on those.

Bottom line it seems a max load of H110 with a cci 400 small rifle primer pushing a .300 grain bullet should work so long as it IS a max load and is heavily roll crimped. It could end up a squib or it could fail to fire (primer material to thick ?) but i'll leave that for the time being.

Sorry rant over lol :p

[leftiye]

That's because half of the things you read were written by people who actually don't know what they're talking about.

[bigdog454]

Right on Leftiye. many of those on line have never loaded for the 454 and they will give info for it because they load for a 45 acp or 45 Colt, The 454 is a different cartridge entirely. Spend a few bucks and by a Book with recpies for the 454 that powder manufactures have published.
BD

[44man]

I have to jump in about H110 and 296. Forget starting loads and go very close or at max loads.
The SR primer can fail to ignite starting loads. Our solution was cut down .460 brass and a LP mag primer. All other powders are fine with the primer. You can get some fine loads but with H110 and 296, there is an air space problem.

[dudel]

That's because half of the things you read were written by people who actually don't know what they're talking about.

+1 Stick to the data from your Hornady manual, and you'll be fine.

[mdi]

Referring to your post #4. Forget all the "stuff" you read on forums, or the "I heard", or "they say" data. Get your data from a published reloading manual. Use the recommended components and you'll be fine. What may work for "those guys" may or may not work for you. If you have a "problem", research reliable sources, troubleshoot for your self...

FWIW, I pay very little (no) attention to any load data from any forum expert, gun counter clerk, range rat,gun shop guru, or pet loads web site. I do on occasion look at powder manufacturers' website for data, but l do check that against a couple manuals.

You do get a lot of good info here on powder "quirks" and mebbe bullet performance, but get data elsewhere. I've been reloading for 30 years off and on and still use a published manual, or three for new to me gun or components...

[44man]

Referring to your post #4. Forget all the "stuff" you read on forums, or the "I heard", or "they say" data. Get your data from a published reloading manual. Use the recommended components and you'll be fine. What may work for "those guys" may or may not work for you. If you have a "problem", research reliable sources, troubleshoot for your self...

FWIW, I pay very little (no) attention to any load data from any forum expert, gun counter clerk, range rat,gun shop guru, or pet loads web site. I do on occasion look at powder manufacturers' website for data, but l do check that against a couple manuals.

You do get a lot of good info here on powder "quirks" and mebbe bullet performance, but get data elsewhere. I've been reloading for 30 years off and on and still use a published manual, or three for new to me gun or components...
Darn you hurt all of us. Do you mean what is said here is no value? Do you believe gun rags or manuals more then experience? What a very hard thing to say to the best of the best, right here.

[Blackcat]

I agree about sticking to the factory data. There is something to be said for the experience of other reloaders but there is so much mis information out there (thats what really stresses me out) I think (hate reloading) was the wrong word. I'm indifferent to it... I love shooting but if factory ammo was an affordable option I would go that route and save the headache.

I discovered about 100 rounds of winchester small rifle primer in my kit. I'll use these and do a load that matches the data from Hodgedon exactly. With H110 i'll also try a few with my cci 400 to compare.

None of the factory data (at leadt that I can find) has a lot about using Unique or Titegroup, although I have heard it can be done. I found some info for Titegroup but nothing in the 300 grain bullet range (wondering why)

My conclusion is I may have to bite the bullet :D and switch to winchester small rifle primers with the H110.

That just leaves me with two questions...

Firing max H110 loads with a 300 grain cast... How much damage will this do to my gun over time ? General wear, and what about this "forcing cone washout" issue that comes up. Is there real info out there on it or is it just another internet urban legend ? If it's legit... Should I be worried about my 300 grain cast with H110 ?

Thanks!

[454PB]

I own three .454 Casull revolvers, including a Taurus Raging Bull. Over the last 25 years, I've fired many thousands of rounds through them. My main interest in shooting and handloading is experimentation, and along the way, I've learned a lot of things both good and bad. I'm one of the guys that has had squibs and have pounded several boolits out of barrels.

My number one tip for loading .454 Casull is to avoid using slow burning ball powder with light boolits. Your 300 grainers are fine, but go down to 250 grains or below and your courting squibs. If you want to use the lighter projectiles, use faster burning powders.

I use CCI 400 and 450 primers exclusively in my .454's. I'm not saying they are the best or only primers to use, just that they are what I have experience with. I have noted better consistency when using CCI 450 primers with H-110, WW296, and WC820. Extreme spreads and groups are smaller than when I use CCI400.

You didn't state how much experience you have shooting a .454....if it's zero, I suggest you start with reduced loads (your Unique is fine for this). Hand a .454 Casull loaded with a 300 grain boolit at 1600 fps to someone that has never fired one is a recipe for flinching and fear.

As to the accumulated wear and damage to the gun, it's going to happen eventually. All my guns have erosion to some degree, but it's the price you pay for performance. However, it takes thousands of rounds.

[Blackcat]

I own three .454 Casull revolvers, including a Taurus Raging Bull. Over the last 25 years, I've fired many thousands of rounds through them. My main interest in shooting and handloading is experimentation, and along the way, I've learned a lot of things both good and bad. I'm one of the guys that has had squibs and have pounded several boolits out of barrels.

My number one tip for loading .454 Casull is to avoid using slow burning ball powder with light boolits. Your 300 grainers are fine, but go down to 250 grains or below and your courting squibs. If you want to use the lighter projectiles, use faster burning powders.

I use CCI 400 and 450 primers exclusively in my .454's. I'm not saying they are the best or only primers to use, just that they are what I have experience with. I have noted better consistency when using CCI 450 primers with H-110, WW296, and WC820. Extreme spreads and groups are smaller than when I use CCI400.

You didn't state how much experience you have shooting a .454....if it's zero, I suggest you start with reduced loads (your Unique is fine for this). Hand a .454 Casull loaded with a 300 grain boolit at 1600 fps to someone that has never fired one is a recipe for flinching and fear.

As to the accumulated wear and damage to the gun, it's going to happen eventually. All my guns have erosion to some degree, but it's the price you pay for performance. However, it takes thousands of rounds.


That makes a lot of sense to me. I also heard about the spread with primers someplace, now i'm considering some different primers to test this myself. Lots of experience shooting .454 I dont even notice recoil. I'm mostly concerned about wearing out the gun pre maturely.

I just noticed you're from Helena. I was travelling across the country by motorcycle a few years back. Shortly after I crossed the border into the USA I got lost and ended up in Helena, nice area!
Thanks!

[cs86]

There is good information on here. I wouldn't start out with someone's data unless published. A good starting point is going to be well known book. like hornady, lyman, nosler, etc. Keep some notes of what you have read on forums and see if anything applies to the loads you are working with such as what 44man said. It's a learning curve. Read some good books, read through this forum, and enjoy the hobby. Welcome to the forum.

[dudel]

Darn you hurt all of us. I don't think that was the intent, even though I tend to agree with MDI on this.


Do you mean what is said here is no value? Not NO value; but a LOT of noise to find a few gems.


Do you believe gun rags or manuals more then experience? Personally yes. I know who they are by their name; not some handle. I really don't know the experience of many people here. High post count != experience.


What a very hard thing to say to the best of the best, right here. Glad to see you haven't lost your sense of humor!

[dverna]

I agree there is a lot of misinformation on any forum. We are dealing with things that can hurt you and others. If you find a load from a source that cannot be verified using published data, an email to the powder company will usually get you an answer.

Common sense should rule. If it sounds iffy, do not do it.

Don Verna

[bobthenailer]

I have a few good reduced loads for the 454 with the 300 gr LFN .
9.0 grs Tightgroup @1,100 fps
28.0 grs of 296 or H110 @1450 fps

[Blackcat]

I agree there is a lot of misinformation on any forum. We are dealing with things that can hurt you and others. If you find a load from a source that cannot be verified using published data, an email to the powder company will usually get you an answer.

Common sense should rule. If it sounds iffy, do not do it.

Don Verna

I agree. I find the info and experience does help, unfortunately you have to take it with a grain or heaping shovel full of salt lol.

I'm mostly taking my time and trying to go by common sense for the most part.

bobthenailer: As it is right now I pretty much settled on 28.5 grains of H110 with a winchester small rifle primer for the 300 grain gas check. I'll run them through the crono and see where that gets me. Your load is about spot on with what I was considering.

Now I just have to figure out how all the dies and what not work again lol.

Thanks everyone :)

[vernb]

I've found it pretty hard to find reduced loads for the 454 too. My favorite is 23 grains of 2400 under a Lee gc300 wfn

[DougGuy]

bobthenailer: As it is right now I pretty much settled on 28.5 grains of H110 with a winchester small rifle primer for the 300 grain gas check. I'll run them through the crono and see where that gets me. Your load is about spot on with what I was considering.

Need to pay attention to the case volume when you compare boolits. The base of the LFN might sit quite a bit higher in the case than the base of the Lee 300gr RF, so you cannot arbitrarily swap load data with boolits that are the same weight. The COA is not as important as where the base of the boolit sits.

Hodgdon says 28.5gr H110 is the min. starting weight for a 300gr JFP boolit with a COA of 1.775" but they don't give any boolit dimensions so there is no way to interpolate case volume under the seated boolit without a good deal of legwork.

[hornady308]

Blackcat, I have a Taurus .454 and have been loading for it for 10 years. I prefer to use moderate loads since the largest game I'll ever shoot are deer and black bear. Of the powders you listed, I have used 11.4gr Unique with the Lee 300gr cast. I've tried various brands of small rifle primers and not seen much difference in accuracy, and my pistol has yet to disintegrate due to the use of any particular brand of primer. While H110 is a great powder, I prefer 2400 since it is much more flexible in making loads that range from moderate to hot, and it has provided phenomenal accuracy with the loads I've tested.

[Blackcat]

Need to pay attention to the case volume when you compare boolits. The base of the LFN might sit quite a bit higher in the case than the base of the Lee 300gr RF, so you cannot arbitrarily swap load data with boolits that are the same weight. The COA is not as important as where the base of the boolit sits.

Hodgdon says 28.5gr H110 is the min. starting weight for a 300gr JFP boolit with a COA of 1.775" but they don't give any boolit dimensions so there is no way to interpolate case volume under the seated boolit without a good deal of legwork.


Interesting you should say that... I was just trying to find some info on how critical COL is.
With my cast 300 grain bullets I seat them so that they are very close to factory "hornady 300 grain XTP" however the bullet shape and length in the case never occurred to me.

So then I guess my question is... Where does a person find that seat depth COL info for the cast bullet ? or determin the info themselves ?

I believe there is a general COL for every caliber... If it's not critical how far above or below COL can you go ?

I just spent a few hours getting used to my equipment again.
decapped/resized a bunch of old brass, cleaned it, cleaned and deburred the primer pockets, re primed, attached gas checks to a number of bullets and put them through a sizer.
Practiced seating a few dummy bullets and crimp.

My only other question after that is: with a roll crimp die, how do you know when you have a heavy enough crimp or is there such a thing as too heavy ? I mean... I was really able to crimp that sucker down lol.

[Blackcat]

Hornady308 I'm thinking more and more of switching to 2400 for that reason (a little more flexible)

[leftiye]

The old timers seated them where they were supposed to be crimped - in the crimp groove. If this "shortened" the cartridge, they always started "low" anyway and worked up. You need to measure cases and look at pressure signs while you work up pressure loads. Then ya gotta test for accuracy, and take a look at the cases you just shot for pressure signs, and chrono a few of them to see if they're what you want (- if they're what you thought you were making). I'm not a 2400 man, but if you are going at least warm it should do what you want. 300 MP and possibly Li'l Gun might work for you too - less of the ignition retardant is used with these than on H110/296. The most accurate load I've ever shot in anything was a 300 XTP in front of 31 grains of 1680 with a CCI SR primer in my Taurus .454. Starting load right out of the old Accurate manual. 32 grains starts to hurt my hand.

[44man]

Need to pay attention to the case volume when you compare boolits. The base of the LFN might sit quite a bit higher in the case than the base of the Lee 300gr RF, so you cannot arbitrarily swap load data with boolits that are the same weight. The COA is not as important as where the base of the boolit sits.

Hodgdon says 28.5gr H110 is the min. starting weight for a 300gr JFP boolit with a COA of 1.775" but they don't give any boolit dimensions so there is no way to interpolate case volume under the seated boolit without a good deal of legwork.
Same as cast will have a different affect, we had trouble with 335 gr LBT's and starting loads. I keep a brass rod and hammer in my bag. Pay attention to every shot and NEVER shoot again if something sounds wrong. Can't happen, guess again!
Cutting down .460 brass even a standard LP primer ignited every load but the fed 155 was most accurate.
I know for a fact I would get away from the SR primer if I owned a .454.
My take is the SR primer will move a boolit and change air space before ignition. When you open a gun and see all the powder behind a boolit up the bore and it is hardly discolored, please do shoot another as guns are cheap!
I never know what I am talking about of course and just say things for fun. It seems there have been posts about problems.
There are WARNINGS, WARNINGS about under loading H110 and 296 yet the .454 is immune to little fire. You NEED a mag primer in the .44 with the powders when pressure exceeds heat.
How far can primer pressure drive a boolit and the fire goes out?
yes, I see remarks are made for me, go for it until someone ruins a gun or gets hurt.

[DougGuy]

however the bullet shape and length in the case never occurred to me.

So then I guess my question is... Where does a person find that seat depth COL info for the cast bullet ? or determin the info themselves ?

I believe there is a general COL for every caliber... If it's not critical how far above or below COL can you go ?



You have to either have the boolits in hand and can measure the two, or you go to the bullet/boolit manufacturer and get a drawing and determine differences from there. If FA uses the 300gr Sierra JFP in a factory load then you can go to Sierra and get this info.

For the sake of comparison, I will give two examples. The first one, you have the Sierra 300 JFP bullet, and you seat it to it's cannelure and crimp it. Shoots fine, groups well, goes advertised velocity across the chrony, no immediate pressure signs. All is rosy. Now you switch over and load some cast boolits using the Lee 300gr RF boolit from the very well acknowledged Lee C 452-300-RF mold and you start getting hard extraction, flattened primers, same powder, same load, same (external!) COA, what gives? Compare the two boolits and discover that when seated to the top crimp groove, the base of the Lee RF boolit is .080" LOWER in the case than the Sierra JFP! Ok, that translates to less case volume under the boolit, = MUCH higher pressures. Unpredictably high! In some cases this can be dangerously high and people have blown up guns in this manner.

Next example, and this happened to a member here not all that long ago, a .45 ACP pistol grenaded in their hands, no serious injuries but destroyed the gun and lit off all the rounds in the magazine, luckily had plastic grips so no wood splinters blown into the palms, contents of the mag went downward. After some very thorough investigating, it was determined that a faulty taper crimp let the boolit be set back in the case upon feeding and when the gun fired there was an over pressure event that was catastrophic. Caused solely by the boolit being set deeper in the case as the slide stripped it from the magazine and crammed it into the feed ramp.

The 9mm cartridge when at SAAMI specs develops 35,000psi on ignition. Seating the same boolit .010" deeper into the case can push pressure well over 60,000psi with JUST a .010" difference.

By the same token, if you know not to download W296/H110 because of the inherent danger of lowering the load density, AND you happen to be at the minimum recommended starting weight and you switch to a boolit that doesn't seat as deep in the case, you have effectively increased case volume under the boolit, and lowered the % of load density. Is it enough of a difference to cause a problem? Who knows? Should you rethink this and investigate to see if there is other published load data using this same boolit and powder before continuing on? Yes that would be a good idea.

Applies for going the other way as well, swap a boolit that seats lower in the case and you could then be creating a catastrophic event. This is why the research into seating depths is important, and why it is important to stick to the SAME components listed (or result to known safe practices which generally are acceptable when you have to substitute a component).

[mdi]

Darn you hurt all of us. Do you mean what is said here is no value? Do you believe gun rags or manuals more then experience? What a very hard thing to say to the best of the best, right here.

As normally most of my posts are directed at new reloaders/casters, I'll lean towards the "safe" side. Having been on this forum for a while I hve come to recognize good, reliable members and do often take their advice (I have begun reworking/rethinking my ideas on bullet hardness thanks to you 44man). The OP's question obviously comes from one not experienced in some aspects of reloading. My warning is/was a safe way to get through his immediate problem safely. I have seen some very questionable and at least on dangerous data on forums (one instance a new reloader asked about a .357 Magnum load of Unique. A "member" replied with a load that was a full grain over max. and that load stayed there, on the forum for over 24 hours. The poster of that load came back the next day and apologized, saying "I hit the wrong key". What if the OP had used that suggestion?).

If I hurt any feelings I apologize, but I stand firm on my answer; new reloders should get all their load data from a published reloading manual...

[44man]

Yes, but a complete failure to ignite is different. It can happen with the same OAL and seating depth.
It should not be taken lightly.
Know what happens with a boolit in the bore and the powder decides to go off. The gap escape saves you and the gun. You escape an SEE event. Many run with constant SEE events in revolvers all day. they see high SD and ES readings and blame other things. You entirely ignore poor ignition. You NEED a LP mag in a .44 but a SR in a .454 is fine. What am I to do?
If you think a LP can't take all the pressure of any gun, you are mistaken. Dick worked with duplex and triplex loads with Bullseye next to the primer, he did not have 296. He thought the SR primer would take pressure better. It hung on for some reason.

[Blackcat]

Wow that's a lot of useful and interesting information! I just woke up and i'm trying to absorb it atm. I did a quick check of the cast vs the factory bullets I have here. The 300 grain cast are just slightly shorter than the 300 grain XTP JHP. Today i'll get a more accurate measurement.

So to be sure I have this right: I take the difference between the length of bullet that i'm using and the one the recipe calls for and I make up the difference by seating the bullet so that the space is the same inside the case. Then work from there "check pressure signs".

Makes sense so far.

[Blackcat]

Yes, but a complete failure to ignite is different. It can happen with the same OAL and seating depth.
It should not be taken lightly.
Know what happens with a boolit in the bore and the powder decides to go off. The gap escape saves you and the gun. You escape an SEE event. Many run with constant SEE events in revolvers all day. they see high SD and ES readings and blame other things. You entirely ignore poor ignition. You NEED a LP mag in a .44 but a SR in a .454 is fine. What am I to do?
If you think a LP can't take all the pressure of any gun, you are mistaken. Dick worked with duplex and triplex loads with Bullseye next to the primer, he did not have 296. He thought the SR primer would take pressure better. It hung on for some reason.

I tend to agree with this because ive seen it first hand. I've read the history about then.454 primer. I know you can also make SR primers work and the factory loads I see mostly all call for SR. That's where it gets confusing to a new reloader like myself. The FACTORY calls for a primer that appears to be less than reliable. Some call for the "winchester SR" which rumour has it run hotter but there doesn't actually apear to be any real information out there on that.

So lets say the SR primer is recommended and works but isn't always reliable. Is there any issue with going up a size in primer ? I believe there is but too what degree ? I could go with cci 450 SR magnum primers. I guess what i'm saying is if the 450's work and possibly do a better job why bother with small rifle primers in the first place ?

Years ago I used what I have here to reload a number of .454. An "experienced" reloader came over and showed me how it was done. We loaded about 20 cases with H110, cast boolit, cci SR primers. We test fired the rounds and found that they performed rather well and chronographed in the range we wanted. No pressure signs that I can recall. BUT about five out of the twenty never fired. You can see where the primer was struck but didnt ignite.
We couldnt figure it out at the time and I put those rounds aside. That was the last time I attempted reloading.

Looking back on it now i'm almost completely sure that was a classic case of cci SR primers failing to ignite (but I could be wrong)

I just want to add I dont mind using SR because I (like to think) I know my gun and tend to pick up on even the slightest change in how it fires.
BUT again I really want a reliable load under all conditions before I use up my practice brass and start loading my Starline brass.

I have about 100 rounds of used Hornady .454 brass to practice with. (Crushing cases in my press and that sort of thing :p )

[44man]

Now a primer that does not go off is different then one that does and does not ignite the charge. You could have a hammer spring issue. Some primer cups are thicker and harder for military rifles with floating firing pins. Is a fed cup on a LR mag primer harder, thicker then a LP mag? I don't think so.
I will see if I can find out.

[DougGuy]

So to be sure I have this right: I take the difference between the length of bullet that i'm using and the one the recipe calls for and I make up the difference by seating the bullet so that the space is the same inside the case. Then work from there "check pressure signs".

Makes sense so far.

Not exactly. You are switching to a different boolit. You go and you SEE if you can find load data for THAT boolit and you can use that data. You can't always adjust it in the seating depth, sometimes you will have a boolit that will stick out the front of the cylinder if you do that.

I think the easiest way to express what I am trying to get over is that for every change, or deviation away from a published load, investigate what's different and SEE if there is in fact load data published for the present components if they're different.

As long as you are within the recommended charge weights from minumum to max, a change in COA could be accommodated by dropping back to the min charge and working up provided the change was minimal. For an .080" difference, which is the difference between the upper and lower crimp grooves in the Lee RF boolit, I would consider this difference WAY more than minimal. Also, the larger the case, the less variable you will see per thousandth of and inch change in % of load density. The smaller the case, the greater the variable, like in the 9mm I mentioned which was a drastic change with only .010" variable in COA.

[44man]

I made my own molds and they use the same loads as most store bought just because. Doug is right, load manuals only say a certain weight within a small range but do not say WHAT boolit.
I have two boolits almost exactly the same, one a GC and the other a PB. Side by side you can't see a thing but the PB uses 1/2 gr more powder then the GC. The GC is super at the same charge but shows pressure signs with sticky brass. I lose accuracy by having to reduce. Still shoots good but the fine edge is lost. WHY?
You buy fine molds from everyone and just read the manual for weights. All is different.

[Blackcat]

44man I came across another of your posts while searching for load data on my cast boolit which btw is a Lee 452-300RF. There was talk about cutting down .460 cases to .454 I think for the primer hole size ? (Guessing here) To use an LP mag primer. With my starline .454 I could achieve the same thing with small rifle magnum primers ? I guess i'm wondering why people would be going through the trouble to cut brass for a pistol primer when you can use a small rifle mag primer in standard brass ?

[DougGuy]

Rifle primers are taller. They won't seat far enough in standard primer pockets and you will have a high primer as a result. Primers need to be seated BELOW flush with the case head to guard against accidental discharge. You do NOT want a primer resting against the recoil shield! Ever played croquet? Where you stick your ball behind the opponents, put your foot on it and hit it? Yours does not move but the opponent's goes flying? You are merely transferring kinetic energy into the ball that moves, via the ball that remains static. The recoil shield in the revolver can do the same thing, energy can be transmitted from the direct contact of the primer against the recoil shield enough to cause the primer to detonate. You may shoot 2,000 rounds like this, and for whatever reason none of them detonate. Or you might get detonation on your first cylinder full. If a primer is not seated below flush with the case head, DO NOT continue to load this piece of brass.

[Blackcat]

Just thought i'd mention: The data in my Hornady handbook Fed 205 small rifle primer, 300grain XTP JHP, H110 starting at 28.2gr max 31.4gr

Since all I have are small rifle primers i'll use them for now and switch up when I can.

The only change in the recipe i'm really making is replacing the 300XTP with the Lee 452-300RF
I do have some 300XTP I could try as well.

BTW at what pressure does the LEE really require a GC ?

[Blackcat]

Ok lol DougGuy that made sense but also confused me more. So... If a rifle primer is too tall for a standard primer pocket. Then what about .454 brass and factory loads calling for rifle primers ? I kind of see where this is going but... Does this imply my Starline .454 brass is useless because it wont take a pistol mag primer and a small rifle mag primer will be too tall, leaving small rifle as the only option ? I imagine that cant be right but somehow thats what i'm getting out of this.

[DougGuy]

I think you can swap small rifle and small rifle magnum primers but not swap pistol primers vs. rifle primers.

[Blackcat]

Thought i'd post a picture of my setup while i'm here.
161944

[44man]

44man I came across another of your posts while searching for load data on my cast boolit which btw is a Lee 452-300RF. There was talk about cutting down .460 cases to .454 I think for the primer hole size ? (Guessing here) To use an LP mag primer. With my starline .454 I could achieve the same thing with small rifle magnum primers ? I guess i'm wondering why people would be going through the trouble to cut brass for a pistol primer when you can use a small rifle mag primer in standard brass ?
The problem was starting loads of 296 not igniting. Yeah, sure took the wind out of my sails. But as load amounts went up, failures stopped. We tried all primers of SR ilk with no change. None solved it. so I reamed pockets for LP and then any load worked and accuracy improved but cutting pockets was insane when we had good brass with .460. You can't cut .454 brass pockets exact. It will drive you nuts.
You can use powders to 2400 but to use starting loads of H110/296 the SR is not right.
Sure, most fire but what if one doesn't and a bear is about to crunch your head?
Many factory cast loads would pull boolits and lock up the freedom and SRH with over crimped boolits and no tension. Mine do not. You trust your life to wrong stuff.

[44man]

Ok lol DougGuy that made sense but also confused me more. So... If a rifle primer is too tall for a standard primer pocket. Then what about .454 brass and factory loads calling for rifle primers ? I kind of see where this is going but... Does this imply my Starline .454 brass is useless because it wont take a pistol mag primer and a small rifle mag primer will be too tall, leaving small rifle as the only option ? I imagine that cant be right but somehow thats what i'm getting out of this.
NO a SR and SP are the same size. Only the LP is shorter then a LR. It is .010" only and LP will fire fine from LR pockets but you do not load LR in LP pockets.
But you sure do not want to load SP primers in the .454. You NEED SR primers with any powder. Even though a SR primer can have 2000# more pressure does not mean it has fire.
Darn I never tried SP in the .454. where are all of you?

[Blackcat]

The problem was starting loads of 296 not igniting. Yeah, sure took the wind out of my sails. But as load amounts went up, failures stopped. We tried all primers of SR ilk with no change. None solved it. so I reamed pockets for LP and then any load worked and accuracy improved but cutting pockets was insane when we had good brass with .460. You can't cut .454 brass pockets exact. It will drive you nuts.
You can use powders to 2400 but to use starting loads of H110/296 the SR is not right.
Sure, most fire but what if one doesn't and a bear is about to crunch your head?
Many factory cast loads would pull boolits and lock up the freedom and SRH with over crimped boolits and no tension. Mine do not. You trust your life to wrong stuff.

Interesting... Thats kind of what I was thinking was the case. So then you could cut pockets for large pistol but standard .454 pockets work fine with small rifle "magnum" and H110 at higher loads for consistent ignition and improved accuracy.

Wow this makes my head spin lol.

ATM i'm just prepping cases and making notes. Before I settle on my final plan I want to post it here just to make sure everything looks as it should be.

I wish there was a course that teaches this stuff. I talked to the only gun shop near my location and they told me there isn't anything "all I can do is find a reloader to give me some pointers"

I have much of the general theory down but without actually seeing the process step by step lots of questions come up.

And to andwer your question "Northern BC Canada"

Thanks for putting up with my noob questions lol!

[Duckiller]

Blackcat one resource that has not been mentioned is customer service of bullet and powder manufactures. They do not want you to blow up your gun. Full power loads of H110 in a 454 Casull will start to hurt real soon. #2 son and I have figured out that we shoot no more than 15 rounds per day. Reduced loads with 2400 are a lot more fun.

[Blackcat]

Blackcat one resource that has not been mentioned is customer service of bullet and powder manufactures. They do not want you to blow up your gun. Full power loads of H110 in a 454 Casull will start to hurt real soon. #2 son and I have figured out that we shoot no more than 15 rounds per day. Reduced loads with 2400 are a lot more fun.

I don't mind recoil really but I also don't need the punishment either.
Hornady 300 grain XTP factory loads don't feel like anything to me (far as recoil goes)
I think a full house H110 load felt a little different but it was so long ago all I can remember is it was fun lol.

However I really do want to try 2400 the more I hear about it the better it sounds.

I want to find a "reliable" general purpose load that I can use to load up all of my Starline brass in one go and store it away to use as I need it. I think H110 could be good for this if I can get the primer thing sorted out so there's no guess to the reliability. Might need a change to cci 450.

2400 could be even better ? Especially with the cci 400 primers.

I also have Titegroup and Unique (found a little info on these) around the 7-11 grain for TG. It seems like these powders arent used much for heavier boolits like my 300 grain.

[DougGuy]

It seems like these powders arent used much for heavier boolits like my 300 grain.

GOOD observation. Like I was saying earlier, if you DON'T see it listed, it's not recommended. These powders are too fast for heavy boolits at magnum velocities.

[454PB]

To add some more confusion.......

Some Ruger SRH .454 Casulls (and maybe other calibers) have been known to have too little space between the tip of the hammer and the frame. This causes light primer strikes.

It happened to me. If I used CCI 450 primers, I'd get about 40% "failure to fire". When I used CCI 400, no problems. I read somewhere about the above mentioned hammer clearance problem, so I removed the hammer from my SRH and filed about .005" off the tip that contacts the frame. No more problems with CCI 450 primers. Apparently the thicker cups were causing the misfires.

[Blackcat]

LoL wow... I'm not surprised and yet I am :p
I've learned a lot here! I guess my best course is to try all the above, H110, 2400, my current primers, some cci 450's and see what happens.

[leftiye]

You can solve the primer cup hardness/thickness thang with more firing pin penetration and/or a heavier hammer spring, but what'll get yer attention real fast is when the primer fires but the powder doesn't (as 44 man has said). Especially if you fire the next round and the previous boolit is still in the barrel - halfway down! I think it's better maybe to solve the primer issue with a little more firing pin travel, and a stronger hammer spring, and then to solve the powder not igniting problem with another powder than H110/296. They may be fine in full house loads, then again - maybe not. The cartridge already runs at full rifle pressures, maybe not the situation to take chances with? I vote to use a powder that has a better reputation!

[44man]

I use heavier over power hammer springs on all my revolvers, 26# Wolfe variables on SA's. For anything that uses a LR primer 28# is best.
Some attribute better results to hammer speed but not so. A primer must be impacted with a certain power or accuracy will go away. It can be a problem with harder cups.
Shooting IHMSA I would see accuracy drop off very fast after time. I guess I changed Ruger springs twice a year and bought packs of them, I do NOT like Ruger hammer springs. They start at 21 to 23# but take a set and lose over 1/2" of length.
Anything that restricts hammer power is no good so the problem explained by 454pb is a good one to remember.
I would not make a pin longer in case it will puncture a primer. The cup can only stretch a certain amount. Internal pressure on a primer is very large.
We never had a problem with any primer in the .454 fail to go off, just powder not lighting. And ONLY starting loads. Only H110 and 296! Still the best for power and accuracy.
I just suggest to not work loads with these powders, go to the knuckle thumpers and you will not have a problem.
Going to .460 brass and the Fed 155, I took the loads over book max, over 55,000# with no problems and all starting loads worked. I use the 155 in the .475 just shy of sticking brass and all the way to the .500 S&W. As I said, I even tried the fed 150 in the .454 and it worked but it's not as accurate as the 155. The case is large enough and performs best with a Mag LP primer.
I still say a SR mag can push the powder ahead if there is airspace and the fire goes out.
If you want lighter loads, use a better powder for the primer.
The .454 is a super caliber but I don't like the primer.
At the other end like the .44 mag and even the .45 colt with 296, I use only the Fed 150 as the cases are still small but the 155 will never fail even if powder and boolits move but accuracy suffers. You need ignition before any movement.
Every single book calls for a mag primer but fed never, ever used a mag in factory .44 loads, I called them and they have no record of doing so.

[DougGuy]

And THEN there are the Winchester WLP primers. These are their method of working around the standard vs. magnum primer question as they are hotter than a standard primer yet not as hot as a magnum primer. Did I say that correctly?

I used to use CCI 300 and 350 and took a break from reloading for a while, now that I got back into it WLP is the only primers I use. I had issues with one Uberti single action pistol but that pistol would not shoot a lead pencil out of the barrel! I never figured out why, but Silver Jack Hammer sent me a genuine Colt mainspring that fit in there and it shoots the pencil up a couple of feet out of the barrel now.

Not only did it cure the ftf issue, it shoots to the sights which it would NOT DO with the factory mainspring! Scratching my head over this one, and it has enough hammer travel that it should be launching the pencil well up into the air but doesn't. By comparison a 1911 will get about 6' of altitude with the pencil.

44man makes a GOOD point with hammer energy!

[Blackcat]

44man... Did I read that right. You're saying you use large PISTOL mag primer in standard .454 brass, and a small RIFLE mag can be too much and push the powder ? That's in unaltered .454 brass ?

I remember a few years back I had my revolver hammer spring "lightened" in the shop. They didn't have a lighter spring so they clipped my factory spring. I had a bunch of misfires after that too due to light hammer strikes. I figured out what was going on right away but couldnt get a new hammer spring. They just dont seem to exist in this part of the world. I contacted wolfe springs and they didnt carry one for my revolver at that time. In the end I believe the gunsmith added a couple washers to bring the # back up again.

This reminds me I might re check the # on my hammer and bring it too or above factory.

[Mark454]

I load a Lee 300-rfgc in my casull. CCI SR Magnum primer, 30.0gr of h110. I have seen guys go hotter but I like my fingers. Haven't chony'd it but it sure is accurate.

[44man]

Thanks my friend. So true about WW primers. Kind of in between and actually are better in the .45 Colt. But very large cases might need more.
Like all else, you never know until you see.
I feel many just have one thing to work with, maybe because a store has nothing else. Old days are gone when I could find anything ever made in the hardware store. Every single shotgun wad and 25# of shot for $5, any size to buckshot. Every powder ever made. I grew up in a wonderful time. Racks full of guns and just a few days to get what gun I wanted, store credit with no interest. ANYTHING from Browning to Weatherby. Dang I was 16 with paper routes and paid my guns off fast so I could buy more.
Today you go in a store and they have no idea and don't stock anything that is not gone in a few days. Then they stare at you while you look around. Back then the man behind the counter was your best friend even if your a kid.

[44man]

44man... Did I read that right. You're saying you use large PISTOL mag primer in standard .454 brass, and a small RIFLE mag can be too much and push the powder ? That's in unaltered .454 brass ?

I remember a few years back I had my revolver hammer spring "lightened" in the shop. They didn't have a lighter spring so they clipped my factory spring. I had a bunch of misfires after that too due to light hammer strikes. I figured out what was going on right away but couldnt get a new hammer spring. They just dont seem to exist in this part of the world. I contacted wolfe springs and they didnt carry one for my revolver at that time. In the end I believe the gunsmith added a couple washers to bring the # back up again.

This reminds me I might re check the # on my hammer and bring it too or above factory.
Yes, what I seen through unscientific observation. But I opened .454 brass primer pockets until I got some .460 brass. I made a cutter to take SR pockets to LP but it is too hard. .460 just needs shortened, they have large pockets.
The SR primer has a lot of force and can move stuff out into the bore, seems there is not enough compound to reach powder if too far.
what you had with your spring was a failure to even light the primer. Worst case so everyone says go to a Fed as they are softer but not the solution because they need impact too. You do not want a primer to just go off.
Years ago gun rags told how to grind a S&W spring and loosen the strain screw for a lighter trigger. Worst thing to do, makes the gun like a paint can that lost gas and spits globs.
Yes, I also added washers to Ruger springs when they got a set but it was not as good as replacing them. Short term fix.

[Blackcat]

Thanks my friend. So true about WW primers. Kind of in between and actually are better in the .45 Colt. But very large cases might need more.
Like all else, you never know until you see.
I feel many just have one thing to work with, maybe because a store has nothing else. Old days are gone when I could find anything ever made in the hardware store. Every single shotgun wad and 25# of shot for $5, any size to buckshot. Every powder ever made. I grew up in a wonderful time. Racks full of guns and just a few days to get what gun I wanted, store credit with no interest. ANYTHING from Browning to Weatherby. Dang I was 16 with paper routes and paid my guns off fast so I could buy more.
Today you go in a store and they have no idea and don't stock anything that is not gone in a few days. Then they stare at you while you look around. Back then the man behind the counter was your best friend even if your a kid.


LMAO What fantasy world was this ? ;) I believe you. It's the exact opposite where I live. Not just Canada (anti gun enough) but a remote Northen Part of the country. There's nothing here to work with. Luckily I know a guy that knows a guy lol, can usually track down the items I need. Unfortunately it usually costs a small fortune by the time it gets to me and that could be a few months to a year.

[44man]

Times were great, can you imagine a kid making out a check for $96 to buy a Ruger from Kliens Sporting Goods in CHICAGO? Got the gun in the mail. Well, I was 19 but had many many guns when 16, I still have the Browning Superposed 20 ga. Wish I still had the 27 S&W. The WW mod 70 in .220 Swift or the Rem .222. The 71 WW and the .300 Weatherby, Marlin .35. The list is long.
Model 12's and Browning straight pull .22's, Marlin Mounty! Ithaca's, both 37's and side by sides. Charles Daly over unders.
All reloaded for. Shotgun shells in a Dietmeyer 500, much Herters stuff and swaging equipment. CH was fun. I always had a gun in the car at work later too, Get off and check a trapline, carry a Barretta .410 that folded completely in half to shoot quail on the way to the creek.
Been there, done that. Open carry a .44 when fishing. It was FREEDOM!