Intercepting Darwin

[rockrat]

Was at a gun shop in Salida, CO yesterday, just to take a look as I hadn't been in it before.

While I was browsing, I heard a fellow talking to his friend about buying some 41 mag ammo.

I have a 41 Blackhawk, so asked him what gun he was shooting it in. He told me a Judge magnum. It would shoot 410, 45 colt and 454 casul and a 4th choice of ammo to shoot would be good!! The 41 mag bullet was the same dia as the slugs in a 410 so it should be OK, right??? Since his gun shot 454 Casul ammo, the pressure of the 41 mag would be OK, right?

Whew!!

Had to explain that although the pressure of the ammo was within the limits of the gun, I didn't think that it would be OK since the case diameter was about 45 thousandths smaller in diameter and when it swelled to fit the chamber, it could possibly rupture and destroy the gun, or you!!! I think it finally dawned on him that it might not be a good idea.

Might have snatched a Darwin award out of his hands.

[Stewbaby]

Might have saved him...you did a good dead either way. I make it up to Bonanza each summer and usually spend a day in Salida...shop worth stopping in?

[rockrat]

Yes, it is, although they are going to move it to the other side of town in June, I heard. Never seen so much powder available, even Trail Boss

[BrassMagnet]

I shop there when I can!
Please PM me their new address when they move.

[bedbugbilly]

Then I'm guessing that I should buy a 41 Mag since my 45 Colt should fit as well . . just sort of vise versa? What is it that Forrest Gump's mother used to say? A good thing you educated him on that!

[Blackwater]

You did good, but these days, there' no assurance that he won't be back to "try it just to see." Some folks just seem to be destined for bad things because they just won't listen, and seem to have lost the ability to think, legitimately, for themselves. At least you tried. That's all you can do. The rest is up to the Darwinians. Some can be woke up from their slumber, and some .... well, they get the "awards."

[cheese1566]

Makes ya wonder the ne t time you buy a used gun! Whose hands was it in before yours....

[Rufus Krile]

Maybe if he wrapped it in duct tape first....

[fixit]

I can tell you what would happen...the casing of the 41 would split, and swell to fit the chamber of the .410-.45 colt-.454, and there would likely be little else suprising happen. this isn't to advise it, but the physics of the situation simple say that with a less than sealed chamber, the bullet will just leave the bore, unless perhaps the bullet were to get cocked, and lodge in the bore instead of exiting. the .41 cases would probably be a little difficult to extract, but not due to excess pressure. I am slightly embarrassed to say I went through something similar to this with my two .44 revolvers. I found out when I did a post event examination that the .41, the .44s, and the .45s all have the same rim diameter, or very close to it. this means that if you were to drop a smaller round in a larger chamber, the smaller round will center itself in the larger chamber. my adult son and I were both shooting at the same time with two .44s, and neither of us could figure out why we were shooting so poorly! it wasn't until we had shot our 2nd cylinder full each, that I looked at the box of reloads, and realized I had the .41s for my contender! as for used guns...they are the same situation as with used cars...you never know what you get until the debug shakedown is done!!

[winchester85]

there was a thread years ago on colorado ar15 about guys using 22lr in 22mag weapons.

i was ridiculed for telling them to use the correct ammo in the gun.

[Plate plinker]

there was a thread years ago on colorado ar15 about guys using 22lr in 22mag weapons.

i was ridiculed for telling them to use the correct ammo in the gun.

Why not? Thats a heck of a lot safer than this scenario. The only problem is you have to do a lot of cleaning to before going back to the 22 mag. Would it not be like running 22 shorts/longs in a 22 lr gun?

[Petrol & Powder]

161522
I'm torn between protecting idiots from themselves and letting natural selection run its course........

[bayjoe]

The Walmart over at Salida has a decent selection of powder once in awhile.

[M-Tecs]

Why not? Thats a heck of a lot safer than this scenario. The only problem is you have to do a lot of cleaning to before going back to the 22 mag. Would it not be like running 22 shorts/longs in a 22 lr gun?

The .22 WMR case dimensions are significantly different from the .22 short/long/long rifle cartridges. The .22 WMR has a larger case body and does not use a "heeled" bullet as does the .22 short/long/long rifle cartridges.

.22LR vs .22WMR
.222/ .223 bullet dia vs .224
.225 neck dia vs .240
.225 base dia vs .241
.275 rim dia vs .291
.040 rim thick vs .046
.590 case length vs 1.052
.985 total length vs 1.350

As a kid I shot some 22 LR in my Single Six 22 WMR. I did get a some case splitting.

[Artful]

If you want lesser power rimfire ammo to shoot in you 22 win mag's use
.22 Winchester Rimfire cartridges as The .22 WMR is an enlarged, more powerful version of the much earlier .22 WRF (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.22_Winchester_Rimfire)

Introduced in the Winchester (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winchester_Repeating_Arms_Company)M1890 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winchester_Model_1890) slide (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pump-action) rifle, it had a flat-nose slug, and is identical to the .22 Remington Special (which differed only in having a roundnosed slug).[1] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.22_Winchester_Rimfire#cite_note-Barnes_p.275-1) It uses a flat-based, inside-lubricated bullet (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bullet),


Production history


Designed
1890


Specifications


Bullet (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bullet) diameter
.226 in (5.7 mm)


Neck diameter
.2435 in (6.18 mm)


Base diameter
.2455 in (6.24 mm)


Rim diameter
.300 in (7.6 mm)


Rim thickness
.050 in (1.3 mm)


Case length
.965 in (24.5 mm)


Overall length
1.180 in (30.0 mm)


Rifling (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rifling) twist
1-14"


Primer (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primer_(firearm)) type
rimfire


Ballistic performance




Bullet weight/type
Velocity
Energy


45 gr (3 g) standard velocity
1,050 ft/s (320 m/s)
105 ft·lbf (142 J)


45 gr (3 g)
1,450 ft/s (440 m/s)
210 ft·lbf (280 J)


40 gr (3 g) hollowpoint (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hollowpoint) (high velocity)
1,440 ft/s (440 m/s)
185 ft·lbf (251 J)

[Mal Paso]

At the range several years ago, my buddy pointed out a target on the other side of the range office. At 15 yards the shots covered the 2 foot square target and some of the holes were perfect keyholes with the bullet fully sideways. Two guys were taking turns with a Single Action in 45 Colt but their shots were pops not Bangs. I confirmed with the RO they had purchased CCI Blazer 44 Mag ammo and he had a word with them.

The Aluminum Blazer cases swelled to the 45 chamber and split from the mouth. The powder didn't develop enough pressure to burn well but it was enough to punch cardboard at 15 yards. Out of 25-30 rounds none hung up in the gun.

Turns out I have 2 44Mag/45Colt pix and a 308 shot in a 308 Norma Magnum.

[Petrol & Powder]

Most "gun people" really try to get it right but if you hang out long enough around firearms you will encounter someone testing Darwin.

I know a guy that is a reasonably intelligent person but knows nothing about guns. Despite his purchase of a Walther PPK/S, he still avoided learning anything about guns. He was very dismayed that a 9mm Luger cartridge would not chamber in his PPK/S. When told that was not the proper cartridge for that pistol he argued that it was because the slide was clearly marked "9mm Kurz"and therefore his pistol was a 9mm pistol......
When told that Kurz is German for "Short" and 9mm Short is really .380 Auto, he wouldn't accept the explanation.

Sometimes you just have to walk away.

[Tackleberry41]

I doubt a 41 mag would have blown up. It has alot of pressure if its constricted. But that case would swell, and most of it would blow around the undersized slug.

I was surprised to see the loading data in a manual I downloaded, they had 3 sets of 45 colt data, standard pressure, ruger only and Judge loads. The powder charge for the judge was right at the edge of the Ruger loads, but the pressures were shown to be the same or lower than standard colt loads. I can only presume alot of that pressure blows past the bullet during the freebore jump in those cyl.

They had some videos on you tube of guys putting 454 casull thru a 410 shotgun, conventional wisdom is it would blow up. But just swagged that bullet down.

You would be surprised at how little even those who should know, don't know. My ex had one of the SKKY 9mm pistols. She sold it thru a friend, a former cop. The buyer wanted to test fire it, so he gave him some '9mm' ammo, that would not work, had no idea 9mm Makarov was different.

[TheDoctor]

Gunstore workers are sometimes part of the problem too. Have a friend of mine that bought a XDs in 45 acp. Now, this guy doesn't know hardly anything about guns, and he acknowledges that. So he asked the counter guy to help him pick some ammo for it. And walked out the door with a box of 45 Colt!

[funnyjim014]

I have seen a 9mm shot in a .40 glock. Forgot to switch it back to 9mm barrel. It would not cycle and the cases were flared pritty good

[rockrat]

I was unsure if the case would rupture, but why not warn someone about a possible hazard

[Tackleberry41]

No its good to set people straight, that no just because it will fit doesn't mean its right. I have at times been in a shop when a clerk is telling someone something pretty stupid. If you say anything then your out the door after the clerk tells you why your wrong and hes right.

But I imagine that 41 mag, if the rim would fit enough, would go pop, the bullet would come out, but most of it would just be smoke out the end.

[lead-1]

Gunstore workers are sometimes part of the problem too. Have a friend of mine that bought a XDs in 45 acp. Now, this guy doesn't know hardly anything about guns, and he acknowledges that. So he asked the counter guy to help him pick some ammo for it. And walked out the door with a box of 45 Colt!

This is true, remember a couple years back when powder was scarce? I had a friend ask me to help him with loading 7mm Rem Mag, I said sure and he brought over the stuff he bought at a shop.
Dies, box of brass, bullets, primers and a pound of Unique. The guy behind the counter told him that was as good as any powder he had on the shelf.

[NavyVet1959]

This is true, remember a couple years back when powder was scarce? I had a friend ask me to help him with loading 7mm Rem Mag, I said sure and he brought over the stuff he bought at a shop.
Dies, box of brass, bullets, primers and a pound of Unique. The guy behind the counter told him that was as good as any powder he had on the shelf.

Which might work with a powder weight of around 6-10 grains, depending upon the bullet.

[MUSTANG]

Stupid is forever.
Ignorance is curable.


Give them the information and then let them decide for themselves; Stupid or Ignorant.

[NavyVet1959]

You can shoot a normal 12-gauge shell from one of the 12-gauge plastic / polymer barrel flare guns.

Once...

Personal experience...

[Geezer in NH]

The .22 WMR case dimensions are significantly different from the .22 short/long/long rifle cartridges. The .22 WMR has a larger case body and does not use a "heeled" bullet as does the .22 short/long/long rifle cartridges.

.22LR vs .22WMR
.222/ .223 bullet dia vs .224
.225 neck dia vs .240
.225 base dia vs .241
.275 rim dia vs .291
.040 rim thick vs .046
.590 case length vs 1.052
.985 total length vs 1.350

As a kid I shot some 22 LR in my Single Six 22 WMR. I did get a some case splitting.

I was given, at 13 from an uncle, a savage 22/410 the 22 barrel kept splitting the brass every shot. It still extracted but had to be picked out the rest of the way.

Advance 5 years latter and a neighbor whose daughter was very friendly with me had me hunt one day with her Dad. He used the same gun but used 22mag cartridges, he saw my problem and tried a 22 mag cartridge in it. IT fit great! The barrel said 22lr but it was 22mag. His was the same and he said he had the barrel chambered for the 22mag for 10 bucks at his gunsmith.

Shows how tight on face the savage was as no gas was ever in the fave. I used 22mag after that but what a difference in price.