45acp boolits fired heavy and slow vice light and fast.

[Follow Me]

Greetings to all,
A short while ago I was in the company of friends, all Combat Infantry Badge awardees (some young, some old) discussing the merits of the iconic 1911 A1 and the 230 gr FMJ RN bullet in its original role/ intended purpose of stopping the enemy. One younger guy told of being around some "other unit Shooters" down in "The Mog" that were carrying ammo loaded with 180 gr SWC projo's. Reason was they (the bullets) hit hard and made a much bigger hole and that the adversaries "bleed out faster" which effectively countered the ever present drugs. The younger guy also said that the SWC's were not GI issue. On several levels, the reaoning makes sense. I'm aware of the reasoning behind the 45acp round/bullet. This subject is the core reason that the expensive "Defense" ammo sells so well.
Someone please expound on the current "layman" thinking concerning the "heavy and slow bullet hole versus light and fast crater/hole.
BTW, there is probably "Geneva Convention" issues for the military person. I just don't remember. If this subject offends anyone's moral sensibilities, I sincerely apologize and ask the Moderator to erase the post.
Thanks

Follow Me
"I am the Infantry, Queen of Battle, Follow Me"

[nagantguy]

Not offended and not a signator of the Geneva convention, the slow/large vs fast light argument is not a can of worms it's a crate of worms, it's Pandoras box....both have merits, at cast velocities the slow heavy for caliber argument makes lots of sense. ..I also.wont argue that my 7mm Weatherby mag shooting lighter bullets kills like lighting....and then there is the middle.ground a mid weight projectile reaching the low.end of fast....all have there place. In my ecd a .45 1911 I stoke 230 grain speer gold dots, slow and heavy, wife's social load is 125 grain .357 loaded .5 parsecs past light speed.....I'd not want to be on the receiving end of either and neither is a guaranteed one shot fight stopper....no such thing.

[Outpost75]

A full charge 185-grain FMJ semi-wadcutter approaching 1000 fps would be a more effective load than hardball if guns were set up to feed it reliably.

[Bigslug]

In this case you're dealing more with shape than weight and speed.

A round nose is going to tend to push tissue aside. A flat nose will stretch, tear, and crush much more effectively. At the end of the day, most hollowpoints are just turning themselves into flat noses that penetrate a little less because of the increased diameter.

As for the current thinking - modern wound ballistic theory is based heavily on the lessons leaned most notably from the 1986 FBI Miami shooter, but also from other shootings in the '80's where light and fast wasn't doing the job. The FBI's conclusion was that in order to be effective a round had to:

1. Be shot accurately into something vital.
2. Penetrate enough to reach something vital.
3. ONLY after the above two conditions are met does larger diameter (either through expansion or just being a big bullet) start to be desirable; in short, the ugly crater on the surface doesn't help - the bullet must reach arteries, nerve clusters, vital organs, etc..., or, as I like to say, the Tootsie-Roll center of the Tootsiepop.

The best way - I think - to play within the silly Hague Convention rules and still have an effective handgun is to roll with truncated cone or other form of flat-nosed FMJ of a heavy-for-caliber weight; i.e., 230 grains for the .45, 135-147 grains for 9mm, 180 grains for .40, etc... These will penetrate in a pretty straight line, so if your aim at the Tootsiepop is good, the bullet will reliably transect those important organs, not deviate appreciably on bone, and leave an exit wound to let more blood out and more air in.

[jcren]

I can tell you that a 255 swc over 6grains of unique hit harder and transfer far more energy into targets and critters than any 200 grain +p I have tried. Given, the largest living thing I have used them on was a massive armadillo (y'all that have them know they are tough) but they are impressive.

[Hickok]

I believe a fast 180 SWC would be better than a slow 230 RN when putting down a enemy.

SWC trumps round-nose, but a heavy SWC or flat point trumps a light SWC or flat nose. Just my thoughts.

Therefore in the 45ACP, I prefer a 230 SWC or with large flat meplat.

[runfiverun]

the U.S. didn't sign on at the convention.
I always want a flat nose and 2 holes no matter what I'm using the bullet for.

[Tim357]

Military ammunition is covered by the Hague Accords, not the Geneva Convention. GC covers treatment of POWs.

[Lead Fred]

The 230gr has been saving GIs lives for over 100 years, saved my ole Man's bacon in WWII.
Heck Tom Hanks blow up a tank with his ! (well he shot at it any how)

I use 230 jacketed for real, and 230 cast RNPB for practice. I pushem about 900fps
Nothing gets up, so they do their job

[OS OK]

It's easy to 'armchair' this topic but until faced with the 'event' in real time…who knows. When that 'fight or flight' and 'adrenaline' kicks in you cannot be sure exactly how you will react. I know how we all 'practice' and try to be 'mentally prepared', carry the right rounds in our weapons but I think one aspect should not go unnoticed…

'Shoot until the threat is down'.

[DougGuy]

^^^^ +1 This..

Let's just say that a heavy slow 230gr RN from a 1911 and a 185gr Star Wars exploding, spinning, phosphorescent frangible from a 1911 is a LOT BETTER than NO 1911 and let both camps win! :bigsmyl2:

Actually I am a big fan of ANY .45 ACP round that looks like THIS after being dug out of almost 9" of red Carolina clay.. 230gr Speer Gold Dot from a Kahr CW45 with a 3.65" barrel:

http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb374/DougGuy/Kahr%20CW45/SpeerGoldDotSoilTest7-4-2015_zpsyf4bj0w4.jpg (http://s1202.photobucket.com/user/DougGuy/media/Kahr%20CW45/SpeerGoldDotSoilTest7-4-2015_zpsyf4bj0w4.jpg.html)

[w5pv]

I have read in the past that the 230 gr fmj makes a hole on entry and a bigger hole on the exit side but inbetween it is pushing debris,twisting and pulling debris also and that whats makes it such an awsome man stopped.I have never shot anyone or saw anyone that was shot with 230 gr fmj.

[OS OK]

^^^^ +1 This..

Let's just say that a heavy slow 230gr RN from a 1911 and a 185gr Star Wars exploding, spinning, phosphorescent frangible from a 1911 is a LOT BETTER than NO 1911 and let both camps win! :bigsmyl2:

Actually I am a big fan of ANY .45 ACP round that looks like THIS after being dug out of almost 9" of red Carolina clay.. 230gr Speer Gold Dot from a Kahr CW45 with a 3.65" barrel:

http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb374/DougGuy/Kahr%20CW45/SpeerGoldDotSoilTest7-4-2015_zpsyf4bj0w4.jpg (http://s1202.photobucket.com/user/DougGuy/media/Kahr%20CW45/SpeerGoldDotSoilTest7-4-2015_zpsyf4bj0w4.jpg.html)

"Those are going to leave a mark!"

BUT...I'd rather know where I can get some of those...185gr Star Wars exploding, spinning, phosphorescent frangibles from?

[alfloyd]

R5R is correct.
"the U.S. didn't sign on at the convention."



(IV,3) (http://avalon.law.yale.edu/19th_century/dec99-03.asp): Declaration concerning the Prohibition of the Use of Bullets which can Easily Expand or Change their Form inside the Human Body such as Bullets with a Hard Covering which does not Completely Cover the Core, or containing Indentations

This declaration states that, in any war between signatory powers, the parties will abstain from using "bullets which expand or flatten easily (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expanding_bullet) in the human body." This directly banned soft-point bullets (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soft-point_bullet) (which had a partial metal jacket and an exposed tip) and "cross-tipped" bullets (which had a cross-shaped incision in their tip to aid in expansion, nicknamed "Dum Dums" from the Dum Dum Arsenal (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dum_Dum_Arsenal) in India). It was ratified by all major powers, except the United States.[15 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hague_Conventions_of_1899_and_1907#cite_note-15)]

Lafaun

[Hickok]

I always want a flat nose and 2 holes no matter what I'm using the bullet for.Exactly!

[Char-Gar]

This a rather interesting thread as the thinking on the 230 RN FMJ has changed 180 degrees in my shooting lifetime. The standard GI ball load came out of WWII with a rather poor reputation as a man stopper. Please take some anecdotal stories from some WWII vets with a grain of salt. Shortly after WWII, I head some of these guys say that if you hit a fellow in the ear with a 45 Auto, it would break their neck and a hit from a Jap 25 (really 6.5mm) was no more dangerous than a bee sting. The truth was the old 45 230 ball load, punched a clean neat hole in the victim.

Then along came Jeff Cooper, and he promoted the idea that "they all fall to hard ball", which I don't believe is true at all. But there was much Cooper said, that was just fantasy and he did a great job of promoting himself as "The Gunner's Guru".

Lee Jurris came along in the 70's with his Super-Vel ammo and changed the landscape. He loaded a 180 grain JHP at about 1,000 fps and they did put a hurting on a fellow right now. I still have a couple of boxes of his ammo and it feed reliably is all of my 1911s. Lee is one of the unsung heros as he started the ball rolling with jacketed bullets that expanded in revolvers and autopistols. He products were so good that the major ammo makers ganged up to put him as out business. But most, if not all, or our good bullets these days can be traced back to Lee in one way or another. Lee is still alive and kicking out in New Mexico, but he is sort of quite these days.

I am of the opinion that any round is better than the 230/RN/FMJ, Any bullets with a meplat is better than a RN and any bullet that reliably expands is best of all.

The best I can say for the old GI Ball load and it's commercial counterparts, is a nice clean 45 caliber hole is better than a nice clean 9mm hole made with 9mm ball ammo.

[W.R.Buchanan]

OK I can add something to this discussion,,, The .45 ACP as originally designed by Browning had a 200 gr bullet. The Army decided it wanted a bigger bullet to more closely duplicate the ballistics of the .45LC, which was a proven man stopper. So the change was made and the bullet slowed down due to the extra weight. Both were FMJ RN's and all military ammo had/has to be.

This round has been a proven performer for over 100 years or else it wouldn't still be so popular.

I have a Glock 21SF in .45 and a Glock 35 in .40 S&W. If I was going to a fight I'd be taking the .45. Simply because the bigger bullet makes a bigger hole.

I don't put too much faith in high performance bullets simply because in order for them to do their magic you first must connect. So with that said I would submit that any hit (or two) with anything from 9mm up will have a seriously negative effect on the recipient. I also submit that a hit by a .45 will have more of that effect than a hit with a 9MM or 40. And I would extend that to a 185 versus a 230 gr bullet from the .45 as well.

The whole reason for big bullets is in fact,,, penetration! This has been true since the Buffalo Wars. Big animals are killed using large solid bullets that don't expand. People are way down the list when it comes to "hard to kill."

They had the Ballistics and Efficiency of every military cartridge completely documented by the end of WW1, and they actually had doctors in the field taking dead guys apart to see exactly what the effects of the different ammunition was. You'll notice that no changes in the ammunition were made for another 50+ years until the 5.56 came into vogue. The 5.56 is NOT a more effective round than a .30-06/.308. It is still an effective rifle round and will easily kill a man of any size, but the main reason for the change was that you can carry twice as many of them on you, thus theoretically you can kill twice as many of the enemy.

Terminal bullet performance in Jello is fine for showing what the bullet will do in a perfect world. However when shooting at people you seldom will get that perfectly squared up frontal shot that all Jello blocks get, or we all get on the square range.

My point being,,, the bullet's ability to penetrate is IMHO, Senior to it's ability to expand. If your shot is directly to the side of the target, then the bullet will have to go thru the arm before it enters the chest from the side. This is about 15-18" with the real possibility of having to go thru an arm bone as well. Raking shots at say a 45 degree angle also require more penetration to be effective.

Penetration is a direct function of Momentum.

It basically the difference between getting hit by a fast moving sports car or a slower moving bus. Both will kill you but the Bus is a sure thing.

Randy

[gwpercle]

I can't say which one is better, depends on if you want expansion or penetration.

I well remember when the 185 grain jacketed hollow points hit the scene, we would load them over 8.0 grains of Unique and shoot water filled gallon milk jugs... we thought, at the time , that was the ultimate 45 acp load. Those expanded bullets were impressive to look at. A 45 cal. hole is still big even without any expansion. I doubt they would penetrate a car body , or very much of a big hog. They both have their place.

[dondiego]

I know of an incident where a felon was shot by a local police officer through the chest twice with a 45 cal., 230 grain FMJRN and ran off. He later walked to the PD and turned himself in to get some medical treatment.

[Jim..47]

Very interesting topic. After reading all the responses above I have my own thoughts as well.
First for a 45acp which isn't a real powerful bullet or load, the only logical conclusion can be (for me that is) that you do want a full 230 Gn.s Therefore we then have 2 choices:

One would be a hard cast semi-cutter. I'm not sure how well this would feed through a 45, but if it did so well, it would probably be the best choice.

2nd would be a 230 Gn hollow point. I doubt this would give as much penetration as a semi-was cutter, but maybe I'm wrong.

In either way I think both of these would be a better choice than a lighter bullet given a defensive situation.

[Jim..47]

I know of an incident where a felon was shot by a local police officer through the chest twice with a 45 cal., 230 grain FMJRN and ran off. He later walked to the PD and turned himself in to get some medical treatment.

I'm wondering if he would have rather been shot with a hollow point of a flat point. :bigsmyl2:

[FISH4BUGS]

I know of an incident where a felon was shot by a local police officer through the chest twice with a 45 cal., 230 grain FMJRN and ran off. He later walked to the PD and turned himself in to get some medical treatment.
Bad shot placement

[nicholst55]

The .45ACP, in any loading, is NOT the end-all handgun cartridge. Here's a real-world example of this:

http://www.policeone.com/patrol-issues/articles/6199620-Why-one-cop-carries-145-rounds-of-ammo-on-the-job/

In my mind, shot placement is king; penetration is queen. Everything else is angels dancing on the head of a pin.

[dualsport]

You hear a lot about projectiles and placement. I heard a retired SF guy say "P is for Plenty". Really caught my attention. They are forced to make do with fmj stuff so make the most of it by applying PLENTY of hits. Makes perfect sense to me. I guess if you were thinking of one shot deals you gotta worry about things more but I'm voting for multiple hit type tactics. Let 'em have it, I say.

[Blackwater]

The problem with trying to go light and fast in a .45 ACP is those light bullets get pretty short, and as stated above, penetration is the first law of killing/stopping. I've never fired a bullet in the .45 lighter than 185 gr., though. Have seen quite a few lighter, and even heard of some good results with the lighter bullets, but I just can't personally trust a bullet that has little bearing surface in an autoloader. I want to trust a bullet that's at least as long as a 200 gr. TC type. These (and heavier) have given me and millions of others great service. Auto pistols depend on really good ammo to function reliably. For me, that's always included good bearing surface, proper nose length and conformation for reliable feeding, and that kind'a leaves the light/fast stuff out, or at least lighter than about 185 gr. For me, it's the need of good and reliable ammo for feeding that keeps me within normal parameters of bullet wt. in the .45. Millions of people have found 185-230 gr. to be as close to "ideal" as it gets in .45 ACP. Much lighter and they get kind'a short, and you can't help but wonder if those short bearing surfaces wont' let the bullet tilt a bit and tie up the gun in a bad situation. The heavy ones work the slide too hard and are slow enough that there's really not gain, and penetration may be diminished, too. After all, it takes bullet wt. AND speed to get good penetration.

That's my story, anyway, and I'm stickin' with it.

[Big Boomer]

We all have our own thoughts and what we think (perhaps I should say hope) is a reasonable, logical, experienced (if not ours', then others') and an informed approach or concept of self defense derived from our study of available data and test information. I had a genuine eye-opener one summer day in 1996 while shooting at a groundhog in NE Ky. I luckily (that's bold, italicized, and underlined for emphasis - I know luck when I see it) connected with the groundhog with one and only one shot from a Ruger P90 in .45 ACP, a handload that featured a 185 gr. jhp bullet over what I thought was a fine, generous load of W231 that proved to be very accurate while shooting from sandbags at paper targets at 25 yards. Those bullets would cluster nearly into a 1" group consistently. I lined up on the groundhog, not having a clue regarding the distance between the pistol and target and raised the front sight to cover the ground hog to the top of its head since it was standing up. At the shot, the groundhog dropped and never moved. A bit of checking revealed that the bullet not only did not open up, but hit the groundhog in the left shoulder and traveled only about 2/3rds of the distance across the groundhog toward the opposite shoulder (4" max penetration). A buddy was present who witnessed the shot and had a 50 yard tape measure handy in his pickup and stretched it out three times and proved my guess on the distance was far off the mark - it was almost exactly 130 yards. That bullet encountered nothing but tough groundhog. While it got the job done, I was more than a little put off that the bullet didn't open up and that it didn't penetrate any deeper. To each his own ... but I'll go with a 230 gr. rn bullet/boolit - preferably with a bit of a flat nose or hollow point if it will feed. Just my take on this. If any threat is 130 yards away, perhaps I've got time to think this over and get a bigger stick and preferably with a longer barrel. Since I just turned 76 and have fought and won - so far - three battles with cancer, I sorely realize that one good lick by a big young guy (or gal) could damage me considerably. So for me, I pack a full size .45 ACP using suspenders (since the cancer left me kinda skinny) or a Sig 938 9mm under dress duds. Big Boomer

[Char-Gar]

A short 45 auto bullet will loose allot of velocity by the time it goes 130 yards and any expansion is pretty much a gift of from God. Penetration would also be reduced.

[Houndog]

My way of thinking on this is John Moses Browning designed the 1911 AND the 45ACP round to work with a 200 grain bullet and I'm not in any position to one up him in either case. When the ordinance department mandated the 230gr bullet I think they deminished the efectivness of the design. We can all agree a 200 grain slug moving along at close to 1,000 FS will do a bunch of damage but is still no match for a rifle, nor was it ever intended to be. Since we are only talking 1000fs MAXIMUM velocity a jacketed hollow point bullet might not be an advantage at a longer range. My favorite load for the 45acp has been a Lyman 452460 cast of 50/50 ww and pure over 7.5 Unique. It has served me well for everything I've used the 45 for.

[Shiloh]

My 200 gr. HG 68 CLone goes 825-850 or so IIRC. Better than two years since I clocked them. 4.4 gr Bullseye.

Shiloh

[fredj338]

IMO, not so much heavy & slow vs bullet shape. A RN bullet pushes tissue aside, smooth hole thru the target. A flat point or sec will crush & tear tissue along it's path. The perm wound will be larger, not prone to self sealing with fat & fur. The idea of a HP is to create a larger frontal area that crushes/tears more tissue, bigger bullet = bigger hole.
If I were stuck with FMJ, I would want a SWC or flat point. I carry & shoot the 45acp a lot. I am a big fan of the 200gr bullet in target form or something like the Lee WNFP. Run it at 950fps, recoil is very manageable & it smacks things really hard.

[wv109323]

A quote I read from a forensic pathologist was "It is not what you got it is where you put it."

[RogerDat]

Accuracy followed by penetration in my book. Need to have enough momentum and be able to carry that momentum through the target, if bullet fractures into pieces each piece will penetrate much less. If bullet is modest weight it will have more problem with transfer of energy and with maintaining momentum. Big slow sledge hammer does a whole lot better job of driving a big tent stake into the ground than a smaller faster moving hammer. Even if the actual force is equal E.G half as much weight traveling twice the speed is equal force.

Which does beg a question what is the force of the specific rounds in question? Going from 220 gr at 800 fps vs. 200 gr. at 1000 fps you have to ask what is the actual force being delivered to the target by each. Also rate at which they lose force. 10% loss of speed from the heavier round costs it less force than it does for the lighter round.

[Jim..47]

If I were stuck with FMJ, I would want a SWC or flat point. I carry & shoot the 45acp a lot. I am a big fan of the 200gr bullet in target form or something like the Lee WNFP. Run it at 950fps, recoil is very manageable & it smacks things really hard.

Fred, would you mind sharing your loading data with me for the 200 Gn. SWC. I have the mold and have been shooting it for a few years, but it doesn't seem as accurate as the 230 Gn. RN. I would rather shoot the 200 if it would shoot accurate as its a little less recoil. PM is fine if you don't want to advertise.

[Outpost75]

Here is my .45 ACP data:
______________________ M1911A1_NM-5"
230-grain FMJ___________Avg._Sd_ES
TW55 Ball REF___________858_28_72

H&G#68_200grain SWC, Federal cases, CCI primers
AlliantBE_4.0 grs.-CCI_LgPmr_819_7_20
______________CCI_SmPmr_784_15_46
AlliantBE_4.5 grs.__LgPmr___863_21_51
________________SmPmr__864_46_115
AlliantBE _5.0 grs._LgPmr___945_6_15
________________SmPmr__922_19_42