Problem chambering 45 ACP

[John Hill]

I purchased a new Springfield Armory Range Officer 45 ACP 5" and began loading up some test rounds to see what it preferred. All were loaded with Bullseye pushing 230 gr LRN boolits. I checked all for SAAMI specs. I loaded 10 rounds of 4.2 gr BE and then 10 of 4.3gr BE and same for each 1/10 gr up to 5 gr BE. I went to the range to try the new pistol out and started with the 10 rounds of 4.2 gr BE. I found that if I loaded 5 rounds at a time in the magazine and inserted the magazine in the pistol with the slide locked back, when I released the slide, it chambered the first round perfectly. When I fired that 1st round, the slide ejected the spent case just fine but failed to remove the next round all the way from the magazine and I had to hand push the slide forward to close and fire the second round. When it fired the same thing happened for the rest of the first group of 10 rounds. I then moved to the 10 rounds of 4.3 gr BE and exactly the same thing happened. I then jumped up to the 10 rounds of 5.0 gr BE and exactly the same happened. Note that if the magazine was inserted while the slide was locked back and the release was moved down to close the slide, it always picked up the first round and properly chambered it. I tried both magazines and the same happened with each.
Has anyone else ever experienced this?
Could the spring be too strong or too weak to get the slide all the way back? I felt that with the charges that I tried, that they all should have worked. By the way, all grouped great when they actually fired.
Tomorrow I will try 10 rounds of some factory ammo that I can get from a friend to see if it is my reloads or the pistol.
John

[sdcitizen]

Sounds like overall length could be an issue. All of those loads should cycle. What is your overall length? I find that with 230lrn, 1.24-1.26 seems to work pretty well, though the important factor is to keep the front driving band of the boolit very near to flush with the case mouth so it isn't too long to fit in the throat

[John Hill]

Sounds like overall length could be an issue. All of those loads should cycle. What is your overall length? I find that with 230lrn, 1.24-1.26 seems to work pretty well, though the important factor is to keep the front driving band of the boolit very near to flush with the case mouth so it isn't too long to fit in the throat
Mine are all set at 1.2660" OAL right in between the SAAMI max 1.275" and the min of 1.190". All of my cases are under the .898" max length.
John

[Jim..47]

I would shorten them another 5-6 Thou. and add another 1/2 to 3/4 gr. bullseye. Ot try about 9 Gn.s of BlueDot which is what I am using now. I just started with the BD but I'm pretty sure its more accurate too.

[John Hill]

I would shorten them another 5-6 Thou. and add another 1/2 to 3/4 gr. bullseye. Ot try about 9 Gn.s of BlueDot which is what I am using now. I just started with the BD but I'm pretty sure its more accurate too.
You say to add 1/2 to 3/4 gr BE. What final load would you recommend?
Also, can I seat the rounds that I have already done deeper even though I have used the Lee Factory carbide crimping die?
John

[Yodogsandman]

Have you tried a "plunk test" where you drop each round into the chamber of the removed barrel and make sure the base is flush with the back of the chamber. This will show if the length is right.

Are you taper crimping the case mouth to between 465"-470", depending on what will feed reliably?

[jcren]

Yes, you can nudge the loaded rounds back a little. Also, measure the crimp right at the case mouth. I find .472" is about perfect and reliable even in picky guns.

[Jim..47]

You say to add 1/2 to 3/4 gr BE. What final load would you recommend?
Also, can I seat the rounds that I have already done deeper even though I have used the Lee Factory carbide crimping die?
John

5.3 Gn.s BE is max. I have loaded them at that but work up to that safely. As far as setting back the depth after a Lee FCD, give it a try, what do you have to lose? If it doesn't work you will have to throw out the bullet and start over.

[old benn]

We are waiting to see how factory works for you. will they be Hard Ball or Target loads (factory)?

old benn

Have you tried a less than full magazine? ALSO: count the coils on the recoil spring. You know they come in different strengths.

[Plate plinker]

Try factory first, then if they do not work try a good magazine Wilson or McCormick.

If if not those probably shorten oal next. If that don't work you may need to tune the gun. Extractor? Throat and polish?

[NavyVet1959]

I've had a similar problem while trying to get a 9mm load that would work in multiple handguns. Instead of RN, they were SWC, but the same principle applies. The various handguns had their leade cut differently so that the bullet was touching before the slide was fully forward. Take one of the rounds that you load via releasing the slide and examine it under a high power magnifying glass to see if you can see where it is engaging the rifling of the barrel. This is probably easier to see with Ballard type rifling than with polygonal.

Remove the barrel from the firearm and gently drop a loaded round in the chamber. If the base of the cartridge does not fit flush with the back of the barrel, then you probably have the bullet loaded too long for that particular barrel's leade.

Another thing to try is to just put an empty piece of brass in the chamber to see if it will fit flush with the back of the barrel. If it does not, then either your brass it too long or the chamber is cut too short. I suspect that it would be pretty rare for a chamber to be cut too short, but it's an easy check and worth knowing.

I would check these things before looking at spring weight, the extractor, and such...

[OS OK]

I see that they are LRN…are they Powder Coated also?…if so…The radius is too fat further out on the radius heading for the nose. PC will add .003-.005" to the outside diameter all around. They are lodging in the rifling before it goes into battery and that is why you have to whack the rear of the slide to make it go on into battery. That first round gets full force of the slide from the extreme rear, perhaps thats why the first one doesn't need an assist.
Pull a live round out after you have forced it into battery like that and look carefully for the land marks on it. If they are there you can shorten the COAL some…not too far though because your pressure increases as you reduce case volume behind the slug.

[old benn]

Hey Guys ! Remember . . . the man says the 1st round chambers.

[kentuckyshooter]

My first thought is if the gun is new then it might just be that the gun isnt shot in yet. New stiff springs could cause the slide to short stroke. Second every time i have had this issue and it could be traced back to my reloads it was an inproper flare and crimp issue. Finaly try haveing some one else try the gun. I hate to sugest opperator error but it being a new gun it could early be a grip problem. This particular gun might like a little firmer grip than the ones you are used to shooting.

[John Hill]

I checked my taper crimp just back of the throat (per SAAMI) and have between .468" and .472". SAAMI allows up to .4732"
I did repeated "plunk tests" with many rounds and all are flush or a very thin hair short. None were above flush.
I loaded each magazine with 5 rounds instead of filling it.
I removed the spring and counted 32 coils.
My boolits are Lee TL452-230-2R and are not powder coated.
Later today, I will shoot some factory rounds and see what happens and report back to you.
Thanks for all of the feed back.
John

[John Hill]

My first thought is if the gun is new then it might just be that the gun isnt shot in yet. New stiff springs could cause the slide to short stroke. Second every time i have had this issue and it could be traced back to my reloads it was an inproper flare and crimp issue. Finaly try haveing some one else try the gun. I hate to sugest opperator error but it being a new gun it could early be a grip problem. This particular gun might like a little firmer grip than the ones you are used to shooting.


Once chambered, all rounds fire and eject perfectly. They just don't bring up the next round and I have to move it forward to lock up by hand.
John

[randyrat]

You have a new gun and a new spring. These new guns in this age are coming out of factory really tight and my .02 is the spring is a 20 lb stock spring and is not broke in yet. You could put a 16 lb in it until it is broke in or shoot hard ball velocity rounds for a while to break it in. 850 or so Ft/ Sec. Puzzles me that 5 grains of BE didn't work

I am amazed at the new 1911s and how good and tight they are compared to the old rattle traps I have shot

OR you have a bad Magazine

[NavyVet1959]

Oil it up and cycle the slide 500 times manually?

[John Hill]

Oil it up and cycle the slide 500 times manually?

Allright,,,I oiled and cycled it 500 times which is a lot harder than it sounds. Whew! Now I have a blister on my left palm.
I'll see how the factory ammo does this afternoon.
John

[NavyVet1959]

Allright,,,I oiled and cycled it 500 times which is a lot harder than it sounds. Whew! Now I have a blister on my left palm.

Yeah, it gets old pretty quick. Still, it's cheaper than shooting 500 rounds which many manufacturers say to use for a break-in period. I usually do it while watching TV. Do 100 or so during commercials and by the time the show is over, I've done the 500.

[hickfu]

I thought I was the only one that did that with a new 1911... good to know others do it too.

[old benn]

This thread reminds me. I've often wondered how you and I can gauge the compression of a coil spring ? I use a 32 coil for Hard Ball in my Gold Cup, but that is too heavy
for target loads. (It slams back much harder than necessary). I replace it with a 28 coil when using .199 gr SWC / 3.2 BE. I really do not know what the strength of either one of these springs are, or how that may change with time compressed in the gun or use. Just wondering.

old benn

I may have figured it out !! How about using a kitchen scale and depressing the spring with a small dowel inserted to keep control, and allowing the dowel
to slide through a hole in what is used to do the "compressing"? I'll have to try it.

[jcren]

Just for giggles, which way is the recoil spring installed? The closed coil goes over the guide rod and the open coil goes in the plug. Installing it backwards is common (because the closed coil can be a snug fit) and will cause coil bind.

[Jim..47]

Just for giggles, which way is the recoil spring installed? The closed coil goes over the guide rod and the open coil goes in the plug. Installing it backwards is common (because the closed coil can be a snug fit) and will cause coil bind.

You know I've read on You Tube about 20 different times about which way the spring goes in and every other one does it back wards, and these guys are top shooters, or so they say. Common sense dictates which way it goes in.

[Char-Gar]

John, from what I can read you are loading the round correctly. Something is retarding the slide as it moves to the rear after firing. It could be a overly strong spring, improper lubrication or machine hickies on the frame or slide.

You are on the right track to run this down. I will want to hear how things work for you this afternoon.

[John Hill]

Success at last!
I shot 5 rounds of factory Federal 230 gr FMJ RN through one magazine and everything worked and cycled perfectly. I then shot 5 rounds of my 4.8 gr BE pushing 230 gr LRN through the second magazine and that also worked and cycled perfectly. The only thing that had changed from the original post was that I oiled the pistol real well and hand cycled the action 500 times, thanks to the suggestion from NavyVet1959. All of my ammo was within SAAMI specs.

There is one particular area that bothers me. On the underside of my slide in the center at the rear area, there are 3 marks that are rough to the touch. It appears to be a round mark or shield followed by "13" but could just be scratches from some unknown cause. Should this center part be honed to be smooth or does it belong? 161429
Thanks to all that made great suggestions.
John

[DougGuy]

If it is a raised burr on the edges of the impressions hone it. If it is marks stamped into the metal and no burr leave it. Either way it will self hone in no time with regular shooting.

[OS OK]

161454

I may have figured it out !! How about using a kitchen scale and depressing the spring with a small dowel inserted to keep control, and allowing the dowel
to slide through a hole in what is used to do the "compressing"? I'll have to try it.
You could try this…we were just throwing some ideas around on another thread…'Redneck Engineering' pat.pend. (Ha!)

[old benn]

Thank you OS OK . . . . Knew there was some additional backwoods ingenuity out there on the horizon. I will need to borrow a fishing scale to try that one though.

(Think I see some artistic ability in the drawing.) I appreciate your post. Old Benn

[NavyVet1959]

Thank you OS OK . . . . Knew there was some additional backwoods ingenuity out there on the horizon. I will need to borrow a fishing scale to try that one though.


I picked up a 50 kg digital luggage scale awhile back off of eBay for around $4. I wanted the heavier weight due to the weight that I'm allowed on international flights. It works pretty good for determining trigger pull weights also if you tie a knot in a small string and run it over the trigger and then have the two loop ends hook onto the hook of the scale.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Portable-50kg-10g-LCD-Digital-Hanging-Luggage-Weight-Electronic-Hook-Scale-S-/201509671870?hash=item2eeae993be:g:xj0AAOSwqrtWo3u U
http://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/xj0AAOSwqrtWo3uU/s-l1600.jpg

There are also some that are less than $2 that are a bit more compact, but do not handle as much weight. These would be good enough for domestic flights or determining spring weights.

[randyrat]

RECOMMENDED RECOIL SPRING

Gun
Light Target Load
Full Charge Load


Govt/Gold Cup (stock)
#10
#18.5


Govt/Gold Cup (compens.)
#9
#15


Govt/Gold Cup (.38SP/9mm stock)
#10
#15


Govt/Gold Cup (.38SP/9mm comp.)
#9
#13


Delta Elite (10mm stock)
#18.5
#24


Govt/Gold Cup (.40S&W stock)
#13
#22


Commander (.45 stock)
#12
#20


Officers (.45 stock guide)
#18.5
#24


Springfield Compact (.45 stock)
#20
#24

[Jim..47]

Thanks for posting that scale Randy.

Are we to assume that full charge listing indicates a 230 Gn. bullet and a light load something around 180 Gr. to 20 Gn. ?

[David2011]

Success at last!
I shot 5 rounds of factory Federal 230 gr FMJ RN through one magazine and everything worked and cycled perfectly. I then shot 5 rounds of my 4.8 gr BE pushing 230 gr LRN through the second magazine and that also worked and cycled perfectly. The only thing that had changed from the original post was that I oiled the pistol real well and hand cycled the action 500 times, thanks to the suggestion from NavyVet1959. All of my ammo was within SAAMI specs.

John

John,

Are your cast boolits the same profile as the Federal 230s? Some cast boolits nave a much rounder profile, like a "2R" such as the Lee molds. Those can't be loaded to the same OAL as Browning's original profile because they'll drag on the magazine and possibly slow the slide down if they can be stripped from the magazine. The recoil spring of a 5" 1911 should be compressed to 1-5/8" long to measure its strength.

David

[John Hill]

John,

Are your cast boolits the same profile as the Federal 230s? Some cast boolits nave a much rounder profile, like a "2R" such as the Lee molds. Those can't be loaded to the same OAL as Browning's original profile because they'll drag on the magazine and possibly slow the slide down if they can be stripped from the magazine. The recoil spring of a 5" 1911 should be compressed to 1-5/8" long to measure its strength.

David
I had access to Federal FMJ RN. I do not have access to info on Federal 230 LRN that you mention to compare but the ones that I had loaded per the original post cycled just fine after I oiled the slide well and worked the slide by hand for more than 500 cycles. Everything seems to work fine now.

[floydboy]

Love the ideas for a compression spring scale. I have a collection of springs that were picked up here and there with no idea what poundage they are. At least with these ideas you could tell which ones are stronger and weaker.

Regarding the ops problem. Someone earlier had mentioned the grip possibly being the problem. Years ago my wife got into pistol shooting for SD reasons. Nothing do her but she was going to learn to shoot a 1911 like they do in the movies. You know rapid fire, drop a mag, slam another one in and repeat. My flawlessly performing 45 gave her the same problems the op was experiencing. I explained to her about how important having a steady firm grip was for the ejection process to be able to work. She finally mastered it and now no problems. Shooting 1911's is where the term, "limp wristed came from". They will not work if allowed to jump back too much on firing.

By the way. From 15 yards my wife can pump 7 rounds into a milk jug full of sand, drop a mag, slam another in and hit it 7 more times in rapid succession. She thinks it's the neatest trick in the world. Grins from ear to ear.

Floyd

[TenTea]

RECOMMENDED RECOIL SPRING



Gun
Light Target Load
Full Charge Load


Govt/Gold Cup (stock)
#10
#18.5


Govt/Gold Cup (compens.)
#9
#15


Govt/Gold Cup (.38SP/9mm stock)
#10
#15


Govt/Gold Cup (.38SP/9mm comp.)
#9
#13


Delta Elite (10mm stock)
#18.5
#24


Govt/Gold Cup (.40S&W stock)
#13
#22


Commander (.45 stock)
#12
#20


Officers (.45 stock guide)
#18.5
#24


Springfield Compact (.45 stock)
#20
#24




Nice chart, and maybe prevailing wisdom has evolved...

Not to be argumentative, but hasn't the standard Government Model recoil spring been 16# nearly forever?
I don't see that on the list. {/scratches head}

[Petro58]

Maybe these might help

161638161639161640161641

[OS OK]

RECOMMENDED RECOIL SPRING



Gun
Light Target Load
Full Charge Load


Govt/Gold Cup (stock)
#10
#18.5


Govt/Gold Cup (compens.)
#9
#15


Govt/Gold Cup (.38SP/9mm stock)
#10
#15


Govt/Gold Cup (.38SP/9mm comp.)
#9
#13


Delta Elite (10mm stock)
#18.5
#24


Govt/Gold Cup (.40S&W stock)
#13
#22


Commander (.45 stock)
#12
#20


Officers (.45 stock guide)
#18.5
#24


Springfield Compact (.45 stock)
#20
#24





Does my Colt Combat Commander (4.25" bbl.).45ACP shooting 206g. L(PC'd)SWC's @ 950FPS come in at the 20 lb. spring? This spring stuff is a mystery to me???

Thanks…OS OK

[NavyVet1959]

Does my Colt Combat Commander (4.25" bbl.).45ACP shooting 206g. L(PC'd)SWC's @ 950FPS come in at the 20 lb. spring? This spring stuff is a mystery to me???

Thanks…OS OK

You'll probably never really know unless you build a test rig and measure it for yourself. I've seen a couple of designs on the web and that's one of my next projects.

[41 mag fan]

One question. .the brass you using 1xs fired that you bought?
Reason being is I had very similar experience with an RIA compact 45. 1st round would go to full battery. The others would not without a push from my thumb. But these very same rounds would function flawlessly thru my kimber or Sti. It took me 2 yrs of frustrating off and on playing with it to figure it out.
I on a whim bulge busted the brass. .problem went away. It's weird if the brass was fired in a glock why it would function thru a kimber but not my RIA

[NavyVet1959]

I had the problem with a mid-size Citadel 1911. I kept trying shorter and shorter loadings of the SWC, until it was actually below the mouth of the brass and it still had that problem. The same thing happened when I tried Winchester White Box ammo in it. I tried cleaning it, lubing it up good, and then cycled the slide 500 times and the problem went away. I'm not sure exactly what part needed to wear in, but 500 cycles managed to do it. I also cycled the trigger 500 times, but kept a piece of folded up paper in there so that the firing pin didn't actually get dry fired.

[John Hill]

I had the problem with a mid-size Citadel 1911. I kept trying shorter and shorter loadings of the SWC, until it was actually below the mouth of the brass and it still had that problem. The same thing happened when I tried Winchester White Box ammo in it. I tried cleaning it, lubing it up good, and then cycled the slide 500 times and the problem went away. I'm not sure exactly what part needed to wear in, but 500 cycles managed to do it. I also cycled the trigger 500 times, but kept a piece of folded up paper in there so that the firing pin didn't actually get dry fired.

I don't understand how the paper was placed to cycle the trigger. Did you remove something or just add some paper some place?
John

[Blackwater]

One other thing that might help just came to mind. Haven't read the past 2 pages fully so it may have already been mentioned, but with .45 ACP, I started out seating and crimping in a single stage. This created infrequent but persistent problems with feeding, mostly in seating the slide fully down. What happens is that as you run the case up into the seater/crimper die, the bullet is still being pushed downward as the crimp starts to dig into the bullet's side. This pushes up a tiny little ring of lead just ahead of the case mouth, and this often shears off and gets "welded" to the front of the chamber. As it builds up, it reaches the point where it's built up enough to keep the fed ctg. from being able to seat fully, and the slide won't close fully.

This is easily cured by crimping in a separate step, AFTER fully seating the bullet in the case. Many people don't WANT to do this, and put up with the occasional FTF. Others, who want to KNOW their ammo will feed IF they run into a self defense situation, realize that truly fully reliable ammo is WORTH a few brief minutes in loading. It really doesn't take much time at all to crimp AFTER seating fully, and the ammo made doing this really IS significantly more reliable. Try it some time and see if it's not true. There's nothing like proving things out to make your point, yea or nay.

[John Hill]

One other thing that might help just came to mind. Haven't read the past 2 pages fully so it may have already been mentioned, but with .45 ACP, I started out seating and crimping in a single stage. This created infrequent but persistent problems with feeding, mostly in seating the slide fully down. What happens is that as you run the case up into the seater/crimper die, the bullet is still being pushed downward as the crimp starts to dig into the bullet's side. This pushes up a tiny little ring of lead just ahead of the case mouth, and this often shears off and gets "welded" to the front of the chamber. As it builds up, it reaches the point where it's built up enough to keep the fed ctg. from being able to seat fully, and the slide won't close fully.

This is easily cured by crimping in a separate step, AFTER fully seating the bullet in the case. Many people don't WANT to do this, and put up with the occasional FTF. Others, who want to KNOW their ammo will feed IF they run into a self defense situation, realize that truly fully reliable ammo is WORTH a few brief minutes in loading. It really doesn't take much time at all to crimp AFTER seating fully, and the ammo made doing this really IS significantly more reliable. Try it some time and see if it's not true. There's nothing like proving things out to make your point, yea or nay.

I do load in a single stage press and I also crimp as a last step using the Lee Factory Crimp Die. I don't think that this was my problem.
Thanks for the reminder.
John

[NavyVet1959]

I don't understand how the paper was placed to cycle the trigger. Did you remove something or just add some paper some place?


I folded it up so that it blocked the hammer from falling all the way. It acted kind of like a cushion. I wasn't using a snap cap, so I figured there was no reason to batter the firing pin unnecessarily.