.44 mag 250gr keith mold

[Oklahoma Rebel]

who makes the best ( and closest to original) keith 44 mag bullet molds? all opinions will be appreciated.

[45-70 Chevroner]

Lyman, RCBS, and all of the custom mold makers. A great boolit for all around shooting.

[dkf]

http://noebulletmolds.com/smf/index.php/topic,1300.0.html

The MP #503 is closer to 250gr than the one above.

[Outpost75]

LBT and Accurate also make molds which are supposed to be true to "Original Keith" designs.

[gwpercle]

Three things to look for :
1.) A wide top band , a wide base band, and one lube groove.
The three bands DO NOT have to be equal width's. And Elmer never said how wide the bands should be...at least not in his books.
2.) Flat bottomed lube groove . So as to hold as much lube as possible . In Elmer's time lubes were not that advanced.
3.) A deep crimp groove , for that heavy roll crimp he liked, I guess needed with the heavy loads and boolits.
Needless to say it has to be a SWC ....reading his articles and books, I bought every one , has influenced my reloading to this day. Every handgun mould ( and most rifle) I have ever bought , has a flat point on it , can't tolerate a RN .
Gary

[white eagle]

http://noebulletmolds.com/smf/index.php/topic,1300.0.html

The MP #503 is closer to 250gr than the one above.

I agree Miha's mold is very close I have one and it is a fantastic mold

[W.R.Buchanan]

I agree Miha's mold is very close I have one and it is a fantastic mold

I have it too and it also has the option of several different HP's in the same mould.

Randy

[David2011]

The RCBS drops straight Lino at 255 grains for me. I cast up a batch and loaded them several years ago. I won't be casting any more straight Linotype boolits. They're not as brittle as some said they would be but one that entered one shoulder of a feral hog and exited the opposite ham didn't expand judging by the exit hole. Pig was in the 200-225 pound range.

David

[Petrol & Powder]

It may not be an exact clone of the original "Keith" design and I doubt any really are, but the RCBS 250 is as good as any......maybe better than the rest.

[5Shot]

Look for the NOE Group Buy - it is on hold right now, so you might be able to get on the list. The molds were made based on slugs cast from original Keith Molds.

[TomAM]

Three things to look for :
1.) Equal width driving bands, base band middle band and top should all be the same.
2.) Flat bottomed lube groove . So as to hold as much lube as possible . In Elmer's time lubes were not that advanced.
3.) A deep crimp groove , for that heavy roll crimp he liked, I guess needed with the heavy loads and boolits.
Needless to say it has to be a SWC ....reading his articles and books, I bought every one , has influenced my reloading to this day. Every handgun mould ( and most rifle) I have ever bought , has a flat point on it , can't tolerate a RN .
Gary

Elmer insisted on equal diameter driving bands, meaning a full diameter front band, at a time when the driving band ahead of the crimp groove (when there was one) was usually smaller diameter for clearance for black powder fouling.

It is often said that he required equal length bands. But does anyone know of any publication where he actually stated that?

[kenyerian]

http://noebulletmolds.com/smf/index.php/topic,1300.0.html Noe has a group buy going on that is on hold for the moment that looks promising . I have an old Ideal that drops around 252 and I also have a Lyman and the Rcbs.
Really not a whole lot of difference performance wise. At least not with me shooting them in pistols. I also have Miha's version that drops 434. It shoots a lot better in The handi rifle that I have set up for my grandson.

[shoot-n-lead]

The RCBS drops straight Lino at 255 grains for me. I cast up a batch and loaded them several years ago. I won't be casting any more straight Linotype boolits. They're not as brittle as some said they would be but one that entered one shoulder of a feral hog and exited the opposite ham didn't expand judging by the exit hole. Pig was in the 200-225 pound range.

David

Were you looking for expansion?

I have never had a cast bullet expand...not seeking expansion...and they seem to work mighty well.

[dkf]

I agree Miha's mold is very close I have one and it is a fantastic mold

I have the MP 503 also and am on the list for the NOE in the link. The 503 is a good bullet and I figure the new NOE will be the same.

[Oklahoma Rebel]

I have learned that dropping boolits straight from the mold into a deep container of sawdust ( for insulation) will slow down the rate of cooling and straight ww boolits (.458, 405gr @ 1350fps) will expand to quarter size after going through about 8" off rolled up paper in a box and 2' of loose dirt. would be very devastating on deer. when I go hog hunting I will have a hard water dropped boolit in the chamber for penetration through those tough shoulder bones followed by softpoints for backup. waterdropped boolits will penetrate 4' into my backstop when it is frozen solid with only small fragments shearing off the nose. I mean like 2-3gr. small

[shaggybull]

I have the Ideal mold

[Lonegun1894]

I have learned that dropping boolits straight from the mold into a deep container of sawdust ( for insulation) will slow down the rate of cooling and straight ww boolits (.458, 405gr @ 1350fps) will expand to quarter size after going through about 8" off rolled up paper in a box and 2' of loose dirt. would be very devastating on deer. when I go hog hunting I will have a hard water dropped boolit in the chamber for penetration through those tough shoulder bones followed by softpoints for backup. waterdropped boolits will penetrate 4' into my backstop when it is frozen solid with only small fragments shearing off the nose. I mean like 2-3gr. small

Don't give the hogs too much credit, and don't buy into the smoke a lot of outfitters try to blow up your backside. I hunt hogs with whatever happens to be on my belt when I happen to see one, with little concern for caliber. Depending on the day, this may be a .45 Colt, .45 ACP, .44 Mag, .357 Mag, .38 Spl, or even a .22LR, with probably 1/3 to 1/2 of my hogs being taken with the .22LR. It is all about placement, but there is nothing in the least bit magical about a hog UNLESS you take a bad shot and give them the adrenaline dump they need to get away (or attack if they have young present). Now the above is based on mostly 250# and smaller hogs, with one 325#, my biggest so far, being taken with a .22LR pistol. I can't speak for if things change much if you come across a monster hog, but I got a clean pass through (almost always do regardless of weapon used) with the .22LR on the 325# example and the shot was broadside and went through the heart.

[44man]

The old original 429421 was my favorite for years using 22 gr of old 2400. Having a front band that enters the throat is a good thing for alignment. Other then that I never seen a difference with the lube grooves. I make my boolits with more then one groove and don't worry about equal bands either, they seem to be more accurate and even the Lee TL with a good lube is very accurate, the 265 RD one of the best. It loves 22 gr of 296 and a Fed 150 primer.
Though the meplat on the Keith makes a good hunting boolit, it is only nostalgia and looks that keeps it going. A RBFP or WLN, WFN will be more accurate.

[Hickok]

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?28452-rcbs-44-250-swc-same-as-k I prefer the RCBS 250-K if buying an RCBS mold. But for about the price of an RCBS mold, you can get Tom at Accurate Molds to make the boolit and mold the way you want.

[Hickok]

Here is Accurate Mold copy of the original Ideal Keith, from dimensions listed by Brian Pierce and Tom @ Accurate molds duplicated from them.

http://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=43-250J-D.png

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

I have no idea what is the closest ?
when I first started casting 6 years ago, I stumbled into a deal with a bunch of molds, a Star lubesizer, and a couple 5 gal. buckets of COWW ingots. In that pile was a 4 cavity Saeco 441 SWC mold...looks like this.
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/557455/saeco-4-cavity-bullet-mold-441-44-special-44-remington-magnum-430-diameter-240-grain-semi-wadcutter
I would have never bought that expensive of a mass produced mold...even today. But let me tell you, that mold casts like a dream, although since it's Iron, it's a bit heavy and my arms get fatigued after 100 pours or so. I've had the RCBS equivalent (and sold it) and I have NOE's HP 434 version, Lee's version, and I had an old Ideal square lube groove version...I will say, I think the Saeco I have is the best Keith type of those I've had listed here.

[Shuz]

I have no idea what is the closest ?
when I first started casting 6 years ago, I stumbled into a deal with a bunch of molds, a Star lubesizer, and a couple 5 gal. buckets of COWW ingots. In that pile was a 4 cavity Saeco 441 SWC mold...looks like this.
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/557455/saeco-4-cavity-bullet-mold-441-44-special-44-remington-magnum-430-diameter-240-grain-semi-wadcutter
I would have never bought that expensive of a mass produced mold...even today. But let me tell you, that mold casts like a dream, although since it's Iron, it's a bit heavy and my arms get fatigued after 100 pours or so. I've had the RCBS equivalent (and sold it) and I have NOE's HP 434 version, Lee's version, and I had an old Ideal square lube groove version...I will say, I think the Saeco I have is the best Keith type of those I've had listed here.
I have that same Saeco 441 mould in 4C, and you're right, it is a great casting design and very accurate. I've been deciding on whether I should offer mine up for sale or trade since I have soooo many .44 cal moulds. The one that I'd really like to trade for is an MP-433-640HP 4C, if there are any out there. I have the MP-433-640L(light) HP in 4C and I just love it and use it in my .44 mag rifles.

[sw282]

My H&G #503 is as close to PERFECT for making boolits as l can get. lt pours them 2/3 of the time @ 252gr. 0ther 1/3 are little more than a grain @251 or 253. l am using straight wheel weights mixture of clip-os and stick-ons. As close together as Speer swaged 240gr SWC factory. This is a 4-cavity Pasedina Ca example l got used off ebay...l have other molds in this same weight range. Their finished boolits don't weigh weigh as close together as the H&G 503 cast ones

[cuzinbruce]

Probably the closest would be the Hensley & Gibbs 503 if you can find one. Ballisti-Cast took over HG and should be about the same. And available new. After that, Ideal/Lyman. The others, Saeco, RCBS, are close. MP and Accurate, I don't know about. But any of them should work fine. There is a lot that has been written about Keith's bullets. Some gets pretty obscure. And it would take some real testing to see if there is any difference.

[Forrest r]

There's been a bunch of good molds named in this thread. I've owned/tried/cast with several of them over the decades. Actually had several different "keith" 44cal molds laying around. The different mfg's had slight differences in their bullet designs and some firearms seemed to take to a specific mold while other firearms seemed to shoot them all about the same.

I bought one of the Mihec keith clone molds, it resembled the h&g 503. I amazed with the quality of the bullet it produced. Had 4 different 44cal firearms at that time and they all loved that bullet. Needless to say I sold all the other keith swc molds I had for the 44cal's. I did keep my hb keith molds and an old ideal 429421 hp mold.

http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t242/forrestr-photo/both429422_zps560323eb.jpg (http://s162.photobucket.com/user/forrestr-photo/media/both429422_zps560323eb.jpg.html)

Threw a scope on a beater 629 truck gun and got it on paper to do some test/plinking loads. Was aiming at the right target. Shot 3 and moved the crosshairs to the right and shot 3 more. Looked good so I shot 6-shots at the left target testing that load for accuracy.

http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t242/forrestr-photo/bdd233e2-28e9-4576-9490-65e2a077103e_zpsyti4eqjd.jpg (http://s162.photobucket.com/user/forrestr-photo/media/bdd233e2-28e9-4576-9490-65e2a077103e_zpsyti4eqjd.jpg.html)

Do yourself a huge favor and buy a custom mold from one of the excellent mold makers out there. Spend the extra $$$ and get a hp version, it will be $$$ well spent.

[wadcutter]

I read "Hell I was There" along with stacks of old American Rifleman magazines when I was young. It's what got me into casting.

If you'd like to read what Elmer said a 44 bullet should be:

http://www.elmerkeithshoot.org/AmericanRifleman/LastWord.pdf

For me, the Lyman 429421 fits the bill nicely and is easy to find.

[jason280]

Thanks for the .pdf link, reading it now!

[44man]

The RD 265 at 50 and 100 yards.160842 I hit the rail at 100 so aimed higher for the last shot. Not bad for an old SBH with about 81,000 rounds through it.
Then 200 yards with the right boolit shape. 160844 You will never do this with a Keith.
I will not kick the Keith in the teeth if it shoots good for you but it needs a perfectly aligned gun. My original flat top would make 25 yard groups look sick with what mine done at 400+. Yes in 56 and 57 I was shooting the 429421 to as far as 500 yards.
best shot was off hand on a running chuck at a measured 550 yards. I took hair off the critter.
Today I just throw the gun!

[gwpercle]

Elmer insisted on equal diameter driving bands, meaning a full diameter front band, at a time when the driving band ahead of the crimp groove (when there was one) was usually smaller diameter for clearance for black powder fouling.

It is often said that he required equal length bands. But does anyone know of any publication where he actually stated that?

When I get back to office Monday, I'll get my old copy of "Sixguns" out and see if it's in there. I honestly thought he said that but maybe he didn't ....could just have been a figment of my imagination. You start getting old and the recollections drift . Anyone else remember reading about the 3 equal bands and square lube groove ?
Gary

[44man]

See this boolit.160854 .500 JRH PB and what it does at 50 yards. 160855 and then a shotgun shell at 100 yards. 160856 yes crazy as all get out. I do not believe anything said because I prove most is wrong.
I made the .475 boolit first like this and it was astounding at 100 with many groups under 1" and some to 1/2" so I made the .500 the same.
Just why does the .080" base band work? Why does more GG's work? C'mon, you know I do everything bass ackwards to prove things are wrong. Elmer was so far back but was just starting and never found it and was dead way before it was done.

[lolbell]

I don't know if it is closest to a true Keith or not but the RCBS 250 K is the best mold for the 44's I own.

[Mal Paso]

The #503, is supposed to have 3 equal .1" drive bands but it's hard to do under 270g and still have decent lube and crimp grooves. I think MP Molds has the best "in current production" design at 260g and is closest to the pictures I have of the Ideal #503. The BC 1105 I have is also an excellent shooter but the base band was shortened to keep the weight in line. NOE reduced the lube and crimp grooves too much for my setup but their mold quality is excellent. All 3 have front drive bands that would make Elmer happy.

Elmer complained about mold manufacturers reducing the front band. I think alignment/accuracy starts at the throat.

The 429421 was designed by Elmer for the 44 Special although no reason not to shoot it in a Magnum. Elmer designed the #503 for 44Mag.

I would have a RCBS Keith too but for the 2 cavity limitation.

[44man]

The 429421 was wonderful in the mag and also shot very well from all the 29's I had. I wish I still had the old mold. My RCBS does not quite match it.

[TomAM]

I read "Hell I was There" along with stacks of old American Rifleman magazines when I was young. It's what got me into casting.

If you'd like to read what Elmer said a 44 bullet should be:

http://www.elmerkeithshoot.org/AmericanRifleman/LastWord.pdf

For me, the Lyman 429421 fits the bill nicely and is easy to find.

I am not trying to criticize anyone; just trying to determine the facts. I have not read everything Elmer wrote.

This article, like the one in Sixguns, speaks of a front band long enough to fill the tapered ball seat, or throat, and a long strong bottom band. It says nothing about the middle band and does not mention "equal" width or length.

[44man]

A lot of stuff you read has no basis in fact. Remember Elmer shot mostly a 20 to 1 alloy that slumped so he wanted strong drive bands. Wooden wheels did not have WW's. Boolit design had to be different. More lube was needed so the reason for the huge GG but that affects balance. Flat bottom or round, GET REAL.
I did NOT shoot 20 to 1 with the 429421, I shot harder lead. You need to understand WHY Elmer wanted his boolit the way it was.
Two GG's hold the same amount of lube as one big one. Lube amount goes away.

[TomAM]

A lot of stuff you read has no basis in fact.

That could not be more true.

[Piedmont]

Elmer shot 15-1 or 16-1 which did not slump. Read Elmer if you want to know what Elmer did.

[jmort]

16 to 1

[44man]

Yeah, true, just my memory but how much better? Tin does not harden much at all.
Slump, oh yes, it sure did.160977

[Mal Paso]

I am not trying to criticize anyone; just trying to determine the facts. I have not read everything Elmer wrote.

This article, like the one in Sixguns, speaks of a front band long enough to fill the tapered ball seat, or throat, and a long strong bottom band. It says nothing about the middle band and does not mention "equal" width or length.

I don't recall "equal" drive bands being associated with any of Elmer's bullets except the #503.

He did complain about mold manufacturers reducing the front band. I think the idea was to have the front band just inside the throat. He insisted on sizing .429" which would have pretty much eliminated chambering issues.

As far as I can tell Elmer never drew up a bullet on paper. I've heard several stories about him telling a machinist or shop what he wanted and approving the result. I have many of his books, articles, and newsletters and found very little on bullet design.

[gwpercle]

Three things to look for :
1.) Equal width driving bands, base band middle band and top should all be the same.
2.) Flat bottomed lube groove . So as to hold as much lube as possible . In Elmer's time lubes were not that advanced.
3.) A deep crimp groove , for that heavy roll crimp he liked, I guess needed with the heavy loads and boolits.
Needless to say it has to be a SWC ....reading his articles and books, I bought every one , has influenced my reloading to this day. Every handgun mould ( and most rifle) I have ever bought , has a flat point on it , can't tolerate a RN .
Gary

The above statement is why you shouldn't believe stuff posted on the internet until you verify it. That 3 equal bands was never stated by Elmer Keith. I looked all through my books and it didn't happen. That statement is nowhere to be found by Keith. He had a lot to say about the proper design , such as:
" It must provide space for plenty of lubricant "
" The base band must be wide to insure accuracy. "
" There must be a wide band of groove diameter in front of the crimping groove to snugly ride the throat of the cylinder and insure perfect lining up of the cartridge in the chamber ."
" The bullet must have a good crimping groove to properly hold it in the case against recoil . "

He said a few other things, but he DID NOT say anything about three equal spaced bands...total fabrication on my part!
I could find no drawings or sketches either.
Sorry for running off at the keyboard and spewing misinformation ....I should have verified my facts. Lesson learned.
I now see how easy information gets messed up and passed along as truth...I was dead wrong.
Gary

[Chris C]

I, admittedly, haven't had time to read all three pages of this thread, but NOE is in the process of "remaking" the original Keith molds. Get on-board and get a mold from NOE.

[jmort]

^^^ Probably should have read the thread. Mihec is doing one as well. I am in on both the NOE and Mihec buys, and both are dead in the water right now.

[Le Loup Solitaire]

I was lucky enough to be able to order a H&G #503 when they were still available back in the day. It is an outstanding 4 cavity mold that casts bullets that perform excellently out of 2 M29s. As cast weight is approx 255 grains and hardly any rejects. Using midrange loads it will deliver good groups at 50 yards. Downside is that it goes through a full 20 pound bottom pour in no time. LLS

[noisewaterphd]

+1 for NOE group buy. Looks excellent.

[44man]

Even Lyman made small changes over the years that bothered Elmer.
I remember using Lyman 50-50 lube too, not much choice back then and never knew how a lube change alone could improve accuracy or ruin it. It did work so-so though.
It took many years to learn what cast could really do.
I make my cherries by eye on the lathe with no drawings so it was mostly luck to overlook the OH, OH moments and see what they could do.
I have sent some boolits away for fellas to copy and in most cases there was some tweaking done and even though close, most did not aid the boolits.
I found a path and figured out the little shoulder on the Keith could not steer a cylinder if the cylinder was not perfect to the bore. I took my RCBS Keith and kept making it harder in stages and in every higher BHN, accuracy increased until I was shooting 50 yards much tighter then 25. Accuracy topped at 28 to 30 BHN.
I made my heavy .44 boolit with as close to 11° I could get the ogive and it worked by matching the forcing cone. It will not work in a S&W since it is too heavy with too much inertia on parts but it works in every Ruger even with a standard forcing cone. My friend gets 1/2" at 50 with a Hunter out of box with just a trigger job.
I am as crazy as Elmer was about boolits.

[wadcutter]

I am not trying to criticize anyone; just trying to determine the facts. I have not read everything Elmer wrote.

This article, like the one in Sixguns, speaks of a front band long enough to fill the tapered ball seat, or throat, and a long strong bottom band. It says nothing about the middle band and does not mention "equal" width or length.

From his 1969 Guns and Ammo article Elmer writes "Back in 1927, I designed the first of the Keith six gun bullets for the Lyman Gun Sight Corporation. My 250-grain Solid, Ideal Number 429421....."

From that it seems pretty clear the 429421 represents a Keith mold quite nicely.

[44man]

It sure did but better is made today, MUCH better.

[Kevin Rohrer]

It sure did but better is made today, MUCH better.

Please give us some examples. I need to buy new molds.

[wadcutter]

It sure did but better is made today, MUCH better.

How so? I can't disagree since the 429421 is the old 44 mold I have, but I'm curious to know if there is something better out there. It casts nice, and shoots better than I can.

[Lonegun1894]

As has been said, the 429421 has had slight changes made over the years, so there are several versions of it out there. I have had at least 2, maybe 3 versions, and have tried several other designs, and I realized one major thing. The major limiting factor in my shooting is ME. For my skill level, it really doesn't matter if I use a SWC, or a RNFP, or a WFP, or a LFN, or whatever else as far as accuracy is concerned. Now I am a SWC fan, and have a preference for them, especially the ones that have the characteristics of the Keith designs, but I have hunted with other designs enough that in the end, it is the flat meplat that matters to me, and the 429421 has the same size meplat as many RNFPs and WFNs, and kills just as well.

[44man]

No doubt the meplat works but it is steerage at the forcing cone the Keith lacks.
The ogive hangs out in the air and can also slump off center as it tries to fill the cone and pull the cylinder.
Better a WLN, WFN or RNFP so the ogive does the work. Also why I use a tough enough boolit.
As my revolvers got larger, .475 and .500, I was sent many Keith styles to test and the increased weight inertia and pressures removed any chance of accuracy.
My opinion is if the Keith was best, the most accurate revolver bullets, the XTP's, would be that shape.
The shoulder was entirely for cutting a round hole in paper as target shooting was big at the time.
It has no other use as it never touches flesh because the pressure wave from the meplat forces meat away from it.
I know some dearly love the Keith but it is appearance, nostalgia and the Keith name, not function.

[Lonegun1894]

I wish I could argue with you, but you're right, 44man. I'm just not a good enough shooter yet to be able to take advantage of the better bullet. And I do have a couple different designs and have tested them side by side. Maybe someday.

[44man]

Yet, I was happy with the old 429421 for a long time and the Thompson 358156 HP was just super in my old .357.
It is hard for me to say that if you like a boolit, don't let me deter you. It is how happy you are that counts.
To love a revolver as much as I do makes us brothers.

[wadcutter]

No doubt the meplat works but it is steerage at the forcing cone the Keith lacks.
The ogive hangs out in the air and can also slump off center as it tries to fill the cone and pull the cylinder.
Better a WLN, WFN or RNFP so the ogive does the work. Also why I use a tough enough boolit.
As my revolvers got larger, .475 and .500, I was sent many Keith styles to test and the increased weight inertia and pressures removed any chance of accuracy.
My opinion is if the Keith was best, the most accurate revolver bullets, the XTP's, would be that shape.
The shoulder was entirely for cutting a round hole in paper as target shooting was big at the time.
It has no other use as it never touches flesh because the pressure wave from the meplat forces meat away from it.
I know some dearly love the Keith but it is appearance, nostalgia and the Keith name, not function.

Can you give some idea of the accuracy numbers for comparison?

[44man]

yes, a few.161359 .500 JRH at 50 with a WFN. BR of course. Then 3 shots at 100 off hand with my .44 mag. 161360161361.44 mag at 200 yards, BR. This boolit is the one that matches the forcing cone angle.
16136228 to 30 BHN at 25 and 50 with a Keith. Still does not beat a better shape. I have shot groups less the 5/8" at 200 meters with Hornady bullets.
To make you think more the SBH had over 80,000 rounds before I shot those groups and brass was shot 40X.
Nobody will make a Keith shoot this way.

[wadcutter]

Sorry, the bottom photo appears very small. What are the group size numbers?

[44man]

With a 22 BHN RCBS I was getting 2" at 25 and 3-1/2" at 50.
At 28 to 30 BHN all shots touched at 25, some groups at 1/2" and 1-1/4" at 50.
I used Unique and 231 from 7 to 10 gr but there was hardly any difference, all loads shot better as I made the boolits harder. If I remember 231 had a tiny edge over Unique. Not enough to quibble about.
I have no wad cutter molds and would love someone to make this test with them, either .38 or .44.
I was water dropping and made the alloy harder by adding antimony with a touch more tin. I had no leading for all the shots. Since I use the RCBS for can shooting I did not go full 296 loads with them. Maybe someday. I like heavier boolits for deer.
I really like the Lee 310 in the .44. It will do 3/4" or less at 50 and thumps deer like a sledge. I never hunted with the 265 RD but it holds 3/4" at 50 and 1-1/4" at 100. My 330 gr, the lee and RD will all out shoot store bought LBT boolits. The Cast performance LBT's are softer then my cast. But the results on deer will not be disputed.

[Don Purcell]

My first Hensley and Gibbs mold was a #503 Keith. This was 1979. The base band is almost twice as wide as the front driving band with the middle band somewhere in between. The meplat is around .270 diameter. My 1988 manufactured H&G #503 has all the bands the same width with a little bigger meplat. About 30 years ago I shot 3 groups out of two S&W 8 3/8 .44's at 100 yards open sights using the 1979 vintage mold. None of the groups were over 2 1/2 inches with some holes touching. Back then I had eyes of an eagle and reflexes of a cat but most importantly I was shooting almost every day. The load was 18 grains of 2400. Go figure. But following .44man's knowledge is the way to go.