Request help loading 30-30 win

[DrDucati]

Hi all. I've gotten really comfortable loading 9mm. Then bought a pre-64 Winchester mod 94. Shot some Remington factory loads with it and now want to reload the Rem cases.

Using Lee turret, Lee cast bullet 309, 150gr GC.
Placed a Hornady gas check on it. The Lee 30-30 die set. Does not seem to get case mouth large enough to accommodate the gas checked bullet.

What am I missing?

[Retumbo]

Lee universal case expanding die ;)

[Thumbcocker]

Expander die of some sort such as the Lyman M die. In my experience .30-30's run better with .311 boolits. I'm not much pumpkins as a rifleman so others with more experience may chime in.

[jcren]

Nothing, factory dies are designed to flare for typical jacketed bullets. Your expander is probably around .305 and much too tight for .309 lead. Either flare by hand with a taper punch, get the lee universal flaring dies or for best results, a layman m-die or simular "stepped" die.

[richhodg66]

Lee universal case expanding die ;)

As a cast shooter, this is the best $15 you will spend, I don't know how I ever got along without one.

Plus one on the .311 diameter, seems nearly all .30s like it better in my experience.

[TCFAN]

Or a Lyman M die............Terry

[Edward]

Short term solution ,needle nose pliers will flair the case nicely till you get your expander die ,my 94 likes 309 and the Marlin likes 310/311
Have fun Ed

[725]

What retumbo said. Create a small bell to your case mouth when reloading cast. Experimentation will show you how much is not enough and how much is too much. Just enough to get the cast started without shaving lead. Be gentle. .30-30's seem delicate to me.

[wills]

Second the Lyman M dies.

[Rattlesnake Charlie]

The Lyman M dies will expand the case to the proper diameter for loading a "cast" boolit. And, they will give you a little flare on the end to get the boolit and gas check started.

[DrDucati]

Thanks to all for your responses. I do size to 311. The gas check though snug on the bullet seems to be quite larger like 315 outside diam or so . Any tips about that? Will the gc get sized too?

[Digital Dan]

You need to size the bullet after putting the gas check in place. A Lee push thru sizer will do the trick.

http://leeprecision.com/bullet-casting/lube-and-sizing-kit/

[TXGunNut]

A solution I like better is a set of RCBS Cowboy dies. The sizer only minimally sizes the case, barely touches the neck. Case mouth expander expands the neck slightly and bells the case mouth. Expander die works the same as a Lyman M dies, expanders and bodies even interchange. Key is you don't work your brass more than you have to as most sizer dies tend to do. Seating die functions the same as any other RCBS seating die.

[CHeatermk3]

If you are f/l sizing using standard sizing die you are over-working your brass..Unless you are neck sizing with a bushing or Lee collet die.

Even then you'll prolly want an M-die too.

[newton]

Lee Universal then look at NOE website for M type expanders.

[Jupiter7]

Lee Universal then look at NOE website for M type expanders.

This. Or Lyman m die.

[rbuck351]

I make my own Lyman style M die specific to the cartridge and boolit size I want to use. If I couldn't do that I would get a Lyman M die.

[44man]

I made my own flare tool from an old RCBS expander die. Just need a little flare. The Lee universal will work too.
I run my GC boolits through a Lee die base first to size and crimp checks but I bought an RCBS .311 die for my lube sizer. Might be a Lyman, didn't look, either works. You do NOT want the check larger then the boolit. Size it the same.
If your boolit is .309", you want the check at .309" too, not .311". You will be just right with the whole boolit at .311".

[DrDucati]

So will the gc size down, being copper I wouldn't think so. Using .30 Hornady gas checks. Is there a way to order .311 gas checks?

[dondiego]

They will size down. Add to base of boolit and size. Hopefully you are using a gas check style boolit

[mdi]

What do you mean "don't fit"? Is the neck ID too small to allow bullet seating or is the case not flared enough to provide an "entry" for the bullet? When there is a "fit problem" measure. Measure the bullets and installed gas check with a micrometer. Difficult to fix a problem if you don't have facts (actual measurements)...

[james nicholson]

As already mentioned, you need the Lee Universal Expander die. Then buy the NOE expander for it. The expanders come in many different sizes and you can get expanders for any new caliber you add to your gun safe, while only buying one die body. In 30 cal, there are two different expanders, a long and a short. You need the long one for 30-30.

[nagantguy]

Yes as everyone said you need an extra tool/step. Lee universal is good, Lyman my may be better. And all 30-30s that I've played with tend to run well with .311, it's only been a few and others milage may vary. Cast rifle loading is a whole different beast. Have you slugged your bore and or done a chamber cast? Gold mine of information in regards to what you are working with in those two procedures. After your initial hurdle or 2 thuddy thuddy and cast get along just fine.

[w30wcf]

So will the gc size down, being copper I wouldn't think so. Using .30 Hornady gas checks. Is there a way to order .311 gas checks?

Dr.,
Yes the Hornady GC will size down aok. After placing the gc on the bullet, run it through the sizing die.
The gc will spring back about .001" and be .312" after running through a .311" die. At least that is what I have found.
If one anneals the gc to make it soft it will size to .311 with no spring back.

There is no one selling .311" gc's that I know of.

w30wcf

[44man]

Dr.,
Yes the Hornady GC will size down aok. After placing the gc on the bullet, run it through the sizing die.
The gc will spring back about .001" and be .312" after running through a .311" die. At least that is what I have found.
If one anneals the gc to make it soft it will size to .311 with no spring back.

There is no one selling .311" gc's that I know of.

w30wcf
I have never found "spring back" with lead or a GC. I find expansion with aging but never out of a die.
I just measured some old 30-30 boolits sized .311" They are .312" and the check is also .312". But newer cast is .311", check and boolit. I do not believe in "spring back".

[JMax]

I use a Lee collet neck sizing die and then use a Lyman M die on the first stage on my 550. I am now using this combo for all of my rifle calibers and am very happy with the results.

[44man]

I do not like the "M" die. It removes half the neck tension.
Made to start soft boolits and then under it, the boolits get sized by brass so the bases are smaller then the front. Perfect setup to failure. Easy start is not accuracy.

[45-70 Chevroner]

The only thing I would ask is, what size are the boolits dropping from the mold, if they are dropping at less than .311 the sizing die is doing no more than lubing the boolit. .311 is the most preferred size, yes .309 will work but you may get more leading. .311 does not guarantee that you won't get leading either, there is the factor of lead hardness and type of lube and velocity that you may have to figure out. I' m not trying to scare you away, these are just some things you might have to work with. Happy casting and shooting. By the way the 30-30 is my favorite cast boolit rifle.

[DrDucati]

They will size down. Add to base of boolit and size. Hopefully you are using a gas check style boolit
Haha! Yes it's a gc bullet.

[DrDucati]

Lyman M die was ordered, ID neck is like 305, bullet drops 310/311. Doesn't flare at all with the Lee die set, I'm sure the M will take care of it. Thanks. And thank you w30wcf.

[vzerone]

Your gas checks will size down, but they have more spring back then cast alloy. Some people like to anneal the check, but I don't. In my opinion a far better expander is the RCBS type. The don't leave the pretty sharp step that the Lyman M type does. With a softer alloy in a flat base design bullet the Lyman expander step will booger up the base of the bullet and size it down a little too. The RCBS is an expander and it bells or flares the mouth and you adjust the flare to suit your needs. You really should get a setup to not over work the case mouths more then necessary. A bushing dies is great for this and if you order the correct size bushing you won't be over working the case mouth. If you're shooting a .311 cast bullet I recommend expanding the cast mouths .0015 inch smaller then the bullet. Going .002 is fine too.

[PapaG]

I have used the Lyman M die, Lee's universal and even a 7.7 Jap sized. All worked fine. In 30-30 I have had good results with .309, .310, and .311. The smaller in my M70, the larger in my 336.

[Thumbcocker]

I get larger expander balls for my .30 cal dies, IIRC a .303 has ha ball close to .310. Never had problems with a .311 not having enough neck tension. Also just use the M die enough to flare the neck the depth of the gc so the neck is not reduced. I have pulled .311 boolits from cases this way and they were the same size as when seated.

[44man]

What I have found is if a GC is larger then the boolit, It expands the brass as you seat larger then the boolit so you lose the tension. Much more important in a revolver.

[dondiego]

I prefer the RCBS type flare tools as well. NOE has good ones that fit in the LEE flare die as was already mentioned.

[Harter66]

I just started with 30-30 and have a little 1950s vintage WW brass . I found my bolt rifle to be very happy with a half neck size from of all things a 308 full length die . I've set it leaves the ID about .308, a quick burnish twist with my 20 mm bullet flairing tool and happiness. As far as loading goes anyway the range may suggest something else .

[Outer Rondacker]

Before I got a flair die I used to put a set of needle noise pliers in the case and with light pressure give it a twist. This would bell the mouth just a hair and let my GC bullet get started. Might want to give it a go.

[vzerone]

What I have found is if a GC is larger then the boolit, It expands the brass as you seat larger then the boolit so you lose the tension. Much more important in a revolver.

44man,

Unless the gas check is excessively larger then the bullet the natural elasticity or neck tension spring back will alleviate that problem. I've never seen a situation myself when that gas check was slightly larger then the bullet that the bullet was loose. In bottleneck rifle cartridges it is desirable to have a slightly larger gas check especially in tapered neck chambers (which most are) as it helps center the front of the cartridge to the centerline of the bore for accuracy improvements.

[44man]

NO, the brass will not spring back to the boolit. Your best bet is a check boolit size.

[vzerone]

NO, the brass will not spring back to the boolit. Your best bet is a check boolit size.

Let's agree to disagree. Oh, I edited to add then how come brass shrinks back from the chamber wall after the gas pressure obturated it?

[Shiloh]

Lyman .309 M die and 15.5 grains 4759 under a Lyman 31141 keeps 'em under 2" at 50 yards.

SHiloh

[Digital Dan]

It do indeed. I cheated though and used 16 grains. :bigsmyl2:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v298/muddler/Guns/Load342813_zps390020ca.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/muddler/media/Guns/Load342813_zps390020ca.jpg.html)

[HangFireW8]

A solution I like better is a set of RCBS Cowboy dies. The sizer only minimally sizes the case, barely touches the neck. Case mouth expander expands the neck slightly and bells the case mouth. Expander die works the same as a Lyman M dies, expanders and bodies even interchange. Key is you don't work your brass more than you have to as most sizer dies tend to do. Seating die functions the same as any other RCBS seating die.

I wasn't so fortunate with my RCBS Cowboy 30/30 die. It sizes the neck just as much as any other 30 caliber FL die, leaving the inside at around 0.305".

EDIT: I just checked this, and it is correct with the expander removed. The expander ball is 0.310, with typical 30/30 spring back that gives me a ~0.3085" hole (depending on annealing), OK for a Winchester barrel but no good loading 0.311 boolits for a Marlin Microgroove.