Cast Boolit Groups

[Johnw...ski]

Just curious, when I was actively shooting 20 years ago I shot mostly jacketed bullets and the cast were mostly for plinking without much regard for group size.
There were a few old timers I was aquainted with who shot very small groups with cast boolits. Now, 20 years later I still shoot J bullets but am interested in shooting cast in my larger bore rifles and am trying to shoot some minute of angle groups. So far, with my 45-70, I can consistantly get 1 1/2" 100 yd. groups with 425 flat nose gas check boolits similar to Lyman 405 gr. and sub 2" groups with the Lyman 535 gr. Postell plain base boolit.

What I am curious about is, what kind of groups are other shooters on this site getting with their 45-70's?

Are minute of angle groups unreasonable?

John

[dubber123]

Not at all, when I shot it alot, I got 1" groups regularly with my Sharps replica with boolits and smokeless. The 13 lb. weight and set trigger were a great help though.

[Johnw...ski]

That's good to hear, care to share any load data?



Not at all, when I shot it alot, I got 1" groups regularly with my Sharps replica with boolits and smokeless. The 13 lb. weight and set trigger were a great help though.

[Kraschenbirn]

I replaced the funky Lyman folding leaf rear sight that came on my H&R Trapdoor Carbine with a reconditioned M1879 miltary and, off the bench, it will shoot under 2" @ 100 using the Lyman 457124 over 55 gr of Goex FFG and a .030 fiber wad or around 1 1/2" using the RCBS 45-405-FN over 31.5 gr AA2015.

[bobthenailer]

that 535 gr postell might shoot better at 200 yards as its not stablized at 100 yards, i shoot a 540 gr saeco and thats what i came up with , i have shot 1 inch for 5 shots at 200 yards but my 25 shot composit group is 2 1/4 inches at 200 yards with a 6.5 x 20 leupold , cant see them iron sights any more , i got the 60s sindrome .

[Johnw...ski]

I hear you, I am using a 24x scope myself. Trying a new load, and will also try 200yds. this week.

John


that 535 gr postell might shoot better at 200 yards as its not stablized at 100 yards, i shoot a 540 gr saeco and thats what i came up with , i have shot 1 inch for 5 shots at 200 yards but my 25 shot composit group is 2 1/4 inches at 200 yards with a 6.5 x 20 leupold , cant see them iron sights any more , i got the 60s sindrome .

[wonderwolf]

that 535gr lyman postell is the 457132? That a good grooved boolit for longer barreled 45-70's in the 1:18 twist region? I got a sharps I'm looking for possible molds for. though I'm working with paper patched stuff right now.

[joeb33050]

I shoot a C. Sharps 1875 45/70, with several bullets.
My standard for accuracy is the average of five 5-shot 100 yard groups.
With 15/Unique, Dacron tuft over the powder, Rem 2-1/2 or WLP it will average slightly under 2".
With 23/SR4759, Rem 2-1/2 or WLP it will average a bit better than the Unique load. On a good day, down toward 1 1/2".
Recoil is the limiter for me, even with 457193 at ~400 grains, I can only shoot 50 record and ~10-15 sighters from the bench in a day.
This rifle has done well at 600 yards on Cape Cod, and once at Wilton NY, at up to 500 yards.
I think it's hard to average 1" at 100 yards for five 5-shot groups with the recoil.
I have shot individual groups well under 1", also some over 3". Averages tell the story.
joe b.

[Johnw...ski]

Thanks for the reply Joe, I am at the point where 1-1/2 to 2" groups are common but I think I can do better. I agree that this level of accuracy is probably enough for off hand shooting. I have been doing very well shooting it off hand at 100, 200and 300 yds., but I feel the groups should be closer to 1" if not under from the bench. With that in mind I have ordered a 1 in 18" twist barrel to replace my 1 in 14". When the rifle is back together it should tell a different story. I agree with you that a five shot group only begins to tell the story, after that a series of five and ten shot groups really prove the load and rifle.

Where on the Cape of Cod were you shooting 600 yds? I only live over the line in Jamestown.

John


I shoot a C. Sharps 1875 45/70, with several bullets.
My standard for accuracy is the average of five 5-shot 100 yard groups.
With 15/Unique, Dacron tuft over the powder, Rem 2-1/2 or WLP it will average slightly under 2".
With 23/SR4759, Rem 2-1/2 or WLP it will average a bit better than the Unique load. On a good day, down toward 1 1/2".
Recoil is the limiter for me, even with 457193 at ~400 grains, I can only shoot 50 record and ~10-15 sighters from the bench in a day.
This rifle has done well at 600 yards on Cape Cod, and once at Wilton NY, at up to 500 yards.
I think it's hard to average 1" at 100 yards for five 5-shot groups with the recoil.
I have shot individual groups well under 1", also some over 3". Averages tell the story.
joe b.

[Johnw...ski]

I used to do my own gunsmithing but since I sold my machine shop I have to leave the more serious stuff to others. I have found a gunsmith in Mulhall, Ok. whose work is exceptional and he is a serious 600 and 1000 yd. shooter so I am getting some very good advise also. He claims the Lyman 457132 is one of the best molds on the market for long range shooting. He likes a 1 in 18" twist in a 28to 30" barrel. As soon as McGowen Barrels sends him the new barrel he will be replacing my 45-70 with a barrel as described.

John


that 535gr lyman postell is the 457132? That a good grooved boolit for longer barreled 45-70's in the 1:18 twist region? I got a sharps I'm looking for possible molds for. though I'm working with paper patched stuff right now.

[wonderwolf]

cool thanks, My rifle is sporting a 34" barrel right now.....I'll see if I can get a hold of a 457132 mold and give it a spin!

[dubber123]

That's good to hear, care to share any load data?

Sorry, I didn't see this earlier, I only kept 1 load, for a 440 gr. GC from a Mountain Moulds tool. 41 grs. of H-322 with a pinch of Polyfill in WW cases shot in an inch or less for me. Velocity is 1,625 fps from the 32" barrel.

I didn't write down the 535 Postell load, but it too was with H-322, and velocity was in the 1,350 fps range. That load too was a 1"er, but I didn't forsee shooting many of the Postells, so I didn't record the load......Dumb.:roll:

[joeb33050]

Thanks for the reply Joe, I am at the point where 1-1/2 to 2" groups are common but I think I can do better. I agree that this level of accuracy is probably enough for off hand shooting. I have been doing very well shooting it off hand at 100, 200and 300 yds., but I feel the groups should be closer to 1" if not under from the bench. With that in mind I have ordered a 1 in 18" twist barrel to replace my 1 in 14". When the rifle is back together it should tell a different story. I agree with you that a five shot group only begins to tell the story, after that a series of five and ten shot groups really prove the load and rifle.

Where on the Cape of Cod were you shooting 600 yds? I only live over the line in Jamestown.

John

Maybe 10 years ago the owner of the Powderhorn Gun Shop in Hyannis arranged for us to shoot at Camp Edwards, at 600 yards. We went there ~6-7 times, then it went away. I don't know why.
There's a 1000 yard range at a club just north of Albany, I'd like to try that.
We were in the Original Pennsylvania 1000 Yard Benchrest Club for a few years, but it's a long way from Plymouth MA.
Good luck;
joe b.

Good luck

[gcf]

What I am curious about is, what kind of groups are other shooters on this site getting with their 45-70's?

Are minute of angle groups unreasonable?

John

I've found the GC Cast Performance 405, to be the most accurate bullet to date in my 2-7x33 scoped Ruger No.1. Very hard bullet, w/ a huge meplat.

An RCBS mould 300LFN-GC / .459" / 15BHN (from Montana Bullet Works) over 52 grains of IMR 3031, runs a strong 2nd. Interestingly, using the faster IMR 4198, groups w/ this softer alloy bullet fall apart in a hurry at anything over minimal velocity ...

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y77/gcf/Ruger/1Group-b.jpg

[rojovin]

Maybe 10 years ago the owner of the Powderhorn Gun Shop in Hyannis arranged for us to shoot at Camp Edwards, at 600 yards. We went there ~6-7 times, then it went away. I don't know why.
There's a 1000 yard range at a club just north of Albany, I'd like to try that.
We were in the Original Pennsylvania 1000 Yard Benchrest Club for a few years, but it's a long way from Plymouth MA.
Good luck;
joe b.

Good luck
Hey JoeB. The range you refer to is Karner Range is the town of Colonie just North of Albany. Sporting 600/800/900/ and 1000 yardages. It is run by the
Forbes Gun Club. It is quite and the range and facilities are A1. A friendlier group you won't find. I drove up from Long Island many years to shoot their Long Range Matches.Try it you won't be disappointed.
Robert Studen
N.Merrick, Long Island, NY

[45 2.1]

What I am curious about is, what kind of groups are other shooters on this site getting with their 45-70's? Are minute of angle groups unreasonable?John

Good groups in the 4570 depend more on how you load them than what your useing. Lite charges of fast pistol powder will lob heavy boolits into 3/8" at 100 yds. Unuseable at longer ranges due to sight elevation unless you have a long range tang sight. Most of the cast boolit molds will shoot anywhere from 5/8" to 1" if they are alloyed right and are big enough. Paper patch boolits will shoot into 1/2" provided they are fit properely for the powder type used. Most of the problems come from too hard of a boolit and boolits being severely undersize. Lube plays a big part in this also. The best powders are WW231 and SR4759 for low end and trapdoor velocities. H322 and a few others work well for Ruger No. 1 type loadings. Yes, Harry M. Pope was wrong about the 4570 being inaccurate, one of the few times he was though.