303 to 45-70

[njmj]

Anybody rebarreled a No4 MK1 smle to 45-70? What all is unvolved? Thanks, NJMJ

[StarMetal]

Gibbs sell the rifle already made.

Joe

[Bret4207]

Frank Marshall of "Fouling Shot" fame talked about doing several. I have always wanted one on a #4 having foolishly sold off my Siamese Mauser 45-70 years ago. From what I can find the biggest problem is getting the buttstock off the Lee Enfield. After that it's pretty straight forward rebarreling. I don't think feeding or extracting is an issue. Gibbs Rifle Co allegedly has converted rifles for sale, but I've yet to see one or even and ad in Shotgun News for one. Perhaps one of the gun auction sites mught have an example.

[Mel-4857]

Last time I checked Gibb's site they were sold out. Talked to a gunsmith in British Columbia , Canada who does quite a few. He lives in Grizzly country. The mag is the problem;he orders them from the USA. Hold 3 rds I think. Mel

[njmj]

Thanks for the responses guys. Just checked out Gibbs' site. The only thing they have for sale is junky 1888 comission rifles. Everyyhing else is sold out. NJMJ

[Bret4207]

After a bit of thought I'd say find a rifle and send it off to ER Shaw for a rebarrel. For what they get labor-wise it'd save you some real headaches. Their barrels are supposed to be OK, haven't used one in years. Feeding may be an issue but magazines are cheap. Bend up a few and go from there.

[Bullshop]

The toughest part of the conversion is converting the mag to single stack. If you can find the old Rifle article from Wolf Publishing in which they convert one to 45/90 he describes in the article how he did it with strips of high impact plastic or some such. I have a couple of the Gibbs rifles and it looks like they have newly manufactured mags that at the rear fold in to form single stack. This is for about half the length so that when the front of a cartridge begins to enter the chamber the rim clears the single stack part and pops up and under the extracter and level with the chamber. As with the 45 acp conversions this seems to be the heart of the conversion as without dependability here the conversion doesn't make sence. I can try to photo one of the Gibbs mags if you want. That may explain better than I have. BTW the acp conversions are a kick in the but, lots o fun!!!
BIC/BS

[Scrounger]

I believe Buckshot has that article. You might want to contact him for a copy...

[Frank46]

NJMJ, Bullshop is right about the gibbs mags having a longer rounded section to hold the shell. What you could try is soldering in a piece of metal bent to the inside radius
where the regular 303 cartridge will sit. This way you could play with the dimensions and when you get it right then have someone tig or heliarc it in place. I've only seen one gibbs enfield 45-70 here in loosiana didn't buy it as I didn't have the money.Maybe
one day will find a #4 with lousey bbl and go from there. Oh yeah, those pieces will have to be fitted to both sides of the mag. You could make a trough type follower as well. Frank

[njmj]

Everyone,
Thanks for the suggestions. I see what you mean about the magazine having to be altered. Another problem is that the rim dia. of the 45-70 won't fit through the front reciever ring. Opening it up looks easier than fooling with the mag. Oh well, it wouldn't be any fun if it was too easy. keep warm, njmj

[Frank46]

NJMJ, I have a ishapore #2A1 in 7.62. Just for the heck of it I tried a 45-70 round in it.
Sonamagun, darn thing fit. This mag does not have the two tabs/guides at the front of the mag. But the rim guides at the rear of the mag are longer than those on a #4 mag. But the kicker is that I do not know if the mag will fit into a MK4 action recess. You'd need a ishapore #2A1 and a ishapore triggerguard just to experiment. Maybe this will be a start. Still have not seen another gibbs 45-70, but if and when I do I'll either pay cash or plastic. Frank

[Bullshop]

*****Still have not seen another gibbs 45-70, but if and when I do I'll either pay cash or plastic. Frank*****
I have two F S PM me if interested.
BIC/BS

[Frank46]

njmj, was looking at my previous post. It should have said a ishapore #2A1 magazine and ishapore #2A1 trigger guard. Sorry for the confusion. Frank

[Buckshot]

................I had 2 articles from "Rifle" magazine dealing with conversions of the #4. One was a conversion done so the author could prove that the SMLE would have been a viable African cartridge. The conversion was done using the 45-90 cartridge. It met his requirements as to matching other round's energy numbers, etc. These had been loaded a wee bit beyond historic BPC type stuff, heh, heh.

The other article had to do with a conversion to .444 Marlin Marlin. I don't recall if any reason for it was given other then he just wanted to. Both conversions did well and magazine modification's did not require a post graduate degree in any of the mechanical arts to accomplish.

.................Buckshot

[Frank46]

NJMJ, Zanders 1-618-785-2235 & 1-800-851-4373 has the remaining gibbs 45-70's they have them for $449 and they sell an aluminum scope mount for the ishy lee enfields for $40. Thank Bullshop for the tip about Zanders. Frank

[slug]

This idea has been festering in my mind for years, but I haven't got around to doing anything with it yet. I need a blank with a diameter over one inch.
The biggest wrinkle is getting that fat-bottomed .45 case to work in the magazine. I was thinking of turning the rim of the case down since there is more rim than you need. I was even thinking of turning the rim off and cutting an extractor groove that matched the .303 diameter. You could use a .303 shell holder and possibly headspace on the case mouth. You would have to keep a close eye on your case length though.
By using a mandrel in a lathe, you could prepare a hundred cases in a very short time.
I have been told that with a slightly reduced rim, the .45/70 case will feed without alteration through a Pattern 14 action, and still work through a Marlin lever action rifle.
Another board mentioned that the old .40/60 (or .40/65 ) Maynard case matches the butt end of the .303 case very closely and it would be very easy to form cases for this cartridge. Brass is cheap as dirt and there is a good selection of .40 cal. moulds available these days.
Lots of things to keep us awake at night.

[Buckshot]

.............Slug the articles I have have the rifles feeding from thier issue magazines. Naturally they're slightly altered. I recall one offhand merely had a couple sheets of delrin plastic inserted to keep the cartridges in line atop the next below.

There isn't too much of a fed issue with the rear locking bolt. The breech is right there in front of the magazine!

http://www.fototime.com/0E6605AE3358FFB/standard.jpg

Just like the MAS36 conversion to 45-70 I did. If anything it was tougher then a SMLE would be.

.......................Buckshot

[castalott]

what a neat idea! How do you like the MAS 36-/70? hmm...how does the sliding rear sight work at various distances? How hard was the conversion? ..And a 1000 other questions......

Dale

[45nut]

Anybody rebarreled a No4 MK1 smle to 45-70? What all is unvolved? Thanks, NJMJ

A few long years ago,,I dropped off a no1mk3 at a 'smiths for just a conversion,then moved across the state and a local ph call for progress reports became long distance calls and the smith rarely answered his own phone. I became weary of making 3 dollar calls and getting no where and was getting ticked off.
One afternoon I happened to get a return call,,,said smith hemmed and hawed ,beat around the bush on a date for the return of my gun and I finally just told him to return it,finished or not. This was 3 years from the start of the project,said smith told stories of how he had to replace the barrel twice due to his machining errors and such and was still unable to feed from the magazine.
I repeated my request for the return of the rifle,and arranged for a friend to pick it up.
During the run of this saga Gibbs Rifle started advertising their conversionsand is common in the gun biz they did not deliver rifles for years after the announcement of the gun.
Well ,,,finally I got my gun back and as expected,it was a single shot,non-consumption of ammo from the magazine was expected and delivered but the gun did fire 45-70's and the gun looked pretty original.
Back to Gibbs,after repeated contact and no results I was finally able to obtain a part number for a Gibbs 45-70 magazine and ordered one up.
Success! Total time exceeded 5 years and some,but the rifle now is a repeater SMLE in 45-70 and while it will never be for sale ,,the luster has fallen and the rifle is rarely taken from the safe.
Some guns are interesting for their accuracy,some for appearance and some for the background,,this one is interesting to me only due to the journey I endured in seeing it through to completion.
http://home.earthlink.net/~chevyken/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/websmle45-70.jpg

[texasloader]

I want to do some smokeless reloads for my 45-70 converted mk4, i was wondering if it could take close to maximum load or if i should keep it midrange. Btw I'm from Texas and wanted a hog womper.

[RedlegEd]

I want to do some smokeless reloads for my 45-70 converted mk4, i was wondering if it could take close to maximum load or if i should keep it midrange. Btw I'm from Texas and wanted a hog womper.
Hi. My recommendation would be start low (Trapdoor range,) and start working up. Depending on the bullet/powder combination you're using, I'll bet your shoulder will give out long before you reach max load. Remember that a 405 gr bullet with a MV of ~1200 fps will go right through a bison, much less a hog at 200 yds. Ed

[john.k]

Any published load for a Marlin or 86 Win/ clone will be ok...............as mentioned ,these will set you back some,and I dont think you will want to go higher.Most of these loads have a 400 gn bullet at around 2000 f/s,and that hurts at both ends,unless you like to plink with 12g slugs .

[wv109323]

As to the conversions, this was common to me back in the 1970's. My high school friend's father did several of these rifles. 303 to 45-70. They hunted whitetails and they considered these as a brush guns.
My friends father had nothing but handtools to do thd job.

[john.k]

Although ,why would you not use a 303............there is no pig ever waked this planet that a 303 wont flatten,and would be my choice over 45/70..........and I ve used both... 303 will reach out to 250 yds easily too ,something a 45/70 wont.........yeah i know guys shoot 1000 yds with 45/70,but what pig is going to wait around for five minutes for a bullet to arrive.

[Dan Cash]

I am one of those guys who shoots 1000 + with a .45-70 Sharps. If I were going pigging and had to choose between my .45-70 and the .303, The .303 would win hands down; even if the gun were a single shot and the piggy was in the brush. A 200 to 220 grain cal. .30 bullet, cast or jacketed, muzzle velocity 2000 to 2400 fps is a deadly instrument and easy to apply to 300 yards.