200gn 45 ACP POI

[swmass]

So I've been loading 200 grain lee SWCs in 45 for a little and they hit about 2 to 3 inches low.. This is to be expected as the bullet is lighter and traveling faster than the 230 grain bullets my 1911 sights were likely set for. My sights are non adjustable and this is my first time reloading 45 or owning a 1911 for that matter... So... my question is, how are you guys getting your 200 grain 45 loads to hit POA/POI with a 1911. More specifically with bullseye powder.

I started with 4.6 grains of BE and was about 3 inches low... Dropped down to 4.2 and I'm about 2 inches low. I can live with this but I'd rather not. Next step down on my lee auto disk is 3.9 grains and I'm not sure if that will even cycle the slide... Although its worth a shot.

So, is there a simple solution to my problem without swapping out the front sight for a shorter one, or changing to a different recoil spring?? I really dont want to mess with the spring... I like to leave my spring tensions alone the way the manufacturer intended... I figure they know more than me about how the tolerances and tension in the gun should work.. I love the lead saving and recoil I get from the 200 grain SWC so I'd like to stick with it. I do a lot of marksmanship style shooting and like to keep my POA the same so 2 inches low with that one gun is starting to bug me.

[Mk42gunner]

Its been so long since I shot any 230's out of my 1911 I don't remember exactly where they impacted. My normal load is the Lyman 452460 in front of a suitable charge of W231, although that may be changing to Power Pistol.

As I remember it, the only .45ACP that I or my shooting buddy had that didn't shoot reasonably close with both 200 and 230 grain projectiles was a S&W Model 25-2. It shot 10-ring sized groups with both, just to wildly differing points of impact.

As I see it you have five choices:

1. Live with it. Not much fun when every other gun you have hits POA/POI.

2. Shorter front sight. The cheap option, if you own a file.

3. Taller fixed rear sight. Again not real expensive, depending on the sight.

4. Adjustable rear sight. Lots of options, any thing from a high mounted ugly thing that will require a new front sight to a buried Bomar.

5. Some sort of optical sight and mount.

Robert

[NavyVet1959]

Just wait until you get older and you can't see your sights anyway... :(

[jcren]

I adjust poi with powder type and charge. A slower powder will get the gun to rise before the bullet exits the barrel. Wouldn't have to be a big change, my 1911 hits an inch high with 4.2 of red dot.

[newton]

My 1911 does this same thing, but it does it with 230 grain boolits also. I could get it to come up when I reduced the powder charge, and while it would cycle, the groups opened up significantly.

I cannot remember the formula, but there is one to find out what height difference is needed to bring the POI up/down to POA. I did the math, found it was around .140"(?) and then measured that much on my front sight. Held that mark even with the rear sight and sure enough, dead on. I will eventually just buy a new front sight that is lower, but till then I just hold the front sight up.

[jcren]

I just remembered, I had a 1911 that shot quite low but when I went through it with a tune up, a fitted barrel bushing raised poi at 25 yds over 4" . This was just an almost fit bushing that required a few minutes of sanding to fit, apparently the stock set up had enough combined tolerances to let the barrel sag.

[Blackwater]

POI can be very dependent on how you grip the gun, whether it's a firm grip or relatively loose. A firm grip usually makes for a lower POI while a looser one usually yields a higher one. Also, faster or lighter loads usually print lower than slower, heavier ones, but that's not always true. It's a question of balancing all the recoil/grip/load factors. Sometimes changing powders can change POI even though the velocity may be the same. it's just something you have to diddle with until you ger the right combo for you and your load and your hand. At least it's fun pursuing that, and it can be educational in the process, so worse things can and have happened. FWIW? Just my experience.

[swmass]

Seems like switching to a slower powder would be the easiest option. I use bullseye in 38,9mm and 45 which keeps it simple, but I could experiment with 45. I may load up some 3.9 loads and see if they cycle and hold a tight group. I've heard of many people using this bullet and 4 grains of bullseye so it may work.. Although they may have switched the recoil spring I don't remember. Maybe I'll try 231, red dot, or unique of I can't fix it. also I'm scared to file too much off the front sight..

[gwpercle]

My load that shot to point of aim, in two fixed sighted 1911's was the Lyman #452460 , 200 grain, with 5.2 grains of Unique.
Unique, being slower , might be why it worked. At that time I only had Unique powder , the starting load was 5.0 in lyman #3, I got the measure set on 5.2 grains , by accident , But , it worked and I've stuck with it.

[StuBach]

I run 200gr SWCs through my custom 1911 no problem with charges as low as 3.0gr BE. I do have a reduced recoil spring which helps on the cycling but these loads will not cycle my glock.

[whisler]

VV N310 is very close to Bullseye in burn rate and 3.9 gn. of VV N310 cycles my stock RIA just fine with the 200gn. SWC.

[CHeatermk3]

You didn't say what distance you're target is or what type of hold you use--if you're using a 6 o'clock hold switching to dead center or 12 o'clock would be the simplest solution...

[Mk42gunner]

Just wait until you get older and you can't see your sights anyway... :(
Up until my mid forties, I had good enough eyesight that I didn't really understand the often quoted blurry target. Now I have a choice of either seeing the target clearly with fuzzy blobs as the front and rear sights; or wearing reading glasses and seeing the sights with a vague indication of a blurry target.

I am seriously considering getting a few of the smaller red dot sights and mounting systems for some of my handguns.

Robert

[NavyVet1959]

Up until my mid forties, I had good enough eyesight that I didn't really understand the often quoted blurry target. Now I have a choice of either seeing the target clearly with fuzzy blobs as the front and rear sights; or wearing reading glasses and seeing the sights with a vague indication of a blurry target.

I am seriously considering getting a few of the smaller red dot sights and mounting systems for some of my handguns.


I don't hunt with a handgun, so I just need minute of torso accuracy. My eyes are still good enough for that for any distance that I could likely claim self-defense.

Put the blurry front post between the two blurry back posts and aim for the center of the blur that threatens you, right? :)

[OS OK]

You didn't say what distance you're target is or what type of hold you use--if you're using a 6 o'clock hold switching to dead center or 12 o'clock would be the simplest solution...

I was wondering when someone would ask the right question?
That round can travel .9" below your line of sight for 15 yards before rising and crossing while shooting a 25 yard target.
Try this ballistics generator by Winchester…it's limited to their factory rounds but it'll give you the general idea. You can fool around with all the distance variables, windage etc.
http://ballisticscalculator.winchester.com

[swmass]

This is at 15 yards. POA/POI. So with these rounds I have to use a 12 o clock hold rather than the center aim that I use.

[CHeatermk3]

"...So with these rounds I have to use a 12 o clock hold rather than the center aim that I use."

Yes, that may be the simplest solution however if you've cultivated/practiced the center hold and are shooting matches in a discipline with time as a factor, such as IPSC or falling plate matches you may need to re-train. For informal target/plinking/pop-can rolling, adjusting your hold is your simplest no-cost solution.

[OS OK]

Take your pistol with current ammo and shoot off a rest. (IE> use a short stepladder and sandbag, it's quickly portable) Shoot in increments that you have to deal with in your shooting.
If you shoot from 3, 5, 7, 15 & 20 yards, then replicate that with the ladder. Shoot your standard POA and don't change it all the way back.
When you are done you can see clearly the difference between your 'line of sight' and 'boolit line of travel'.
Use a 5 spot target and fire several rounds at each distance and that will rule out any errant shots. Lable each target with the distance you shot it and you have it.
Now you can use a standard POA sight allignment and you make a mental adjustment according to the distance, now you know where it hits.

[Dan Cash]

What are you shooting at with that pistol that makes 3-4 inches important?

[ironhead7544]

You might be able to adjust it with a different powder. I would find the load I wanted and then adjust the sight to suit.

I like to have the bullet impact just above the front sight at 25 yards.

Adjustable sights would be a good idea if you want to shoot a lot of different loads.

[jonp]

I adjust poi with powder type and charge. A slower powder will get the gun to rise before the bullet exits the barrel. Wouldn't have to be a big change, my 1911 hits an inch high with 4.2 of red dot.

Mine does with about the same charge of Red Dot. 4gr and under they seem to hit poi or near to it

[GTN]

I have 2 good reloads for the lee 200 swc bullet 4.0 Bullseye Winchester primer OAL of 1.235 2nd load is 4.5 Solo 1000 powder winchester primer OAL 1.235. I have used this load in my Colt 1911 and my Auto ordnance 1911 both shoot very accurate.

[swmass]

I've got about 500 of them loaded up as it is so I'll shoot them off outside at the steel where I don't care as much. It's been crappy out here so I've been shootin inside on paper and that's when the few inches bugs me. I want to get into IDPA but I'd be using my 9 for that anyway.

I just like tinkering and making my "go to" loads perfect since I'll be shooting a lot of them. Maybe the 500 I have will help break it in and the 3.9 loads will cycle and bring my impact up a bit. It's basically a brand new 1911 right now. I'm just thinking this powder with such a light charge just isn't raising the muzzle enough to throw the round up no matter how slow I have that boolit moving. We will see.

[NavyVet1959]

It's been crappy out here so I've been shootin inside on paper and that's when the few inches bugs me.

Just blame it on your eyesight... When you get older, you'll be blaming it on it anyway, so might as well start now. :)

[swmass]

Just blame it on your eyesight... When you get older, you'll be blaming it on it anyway, so might as well start now. :)

I've been wearing glasses since I was a little kid so I can only imagine what my eye sight will be later on :lol:

[Shiloh]

I started with 4.6 grains of BE and was about 3 inches low... Dropped down to 4.2 and I'm about 2 inches low. I can live with this but I'd rather not. Next step down on my lee auto disk is 3.9 grains and I'm not sure if that will even cycle the slide... Although its worth a shot.


3.9 will cycle mine. I shoot 4.5 usually but have a Bomar adjustable sight.
If it won't cycle, you can get a reduced weight spring in almost any pound weight.

Be careful though, if you go with a heavier boolit, put the 16# back in.

SHiloh

[swmass]

Made it to the range and tried out some 3.9 loads. They cycle fine. If only I'd tried before loading up 4-500 of my 4.2 grain rounds. Oh well... I'll shoot the other ones up outside on the steel. I'm still hitting slightly low, but only about an inch or so now, and since I want to use the same powder for most of my loads this will do just fine. The 3.9 loads seemed to be more accurate as well.. although I may have just had a good day at the range.

[NavyVet1959]

If you have multiple recoil springs around and you forget to label them with respect to their weight, is there an easy way to determine what they are?

[OS OK]

161435
If you have multiple recoil springs around and you forget to label them with respect to their weight, is there an easy way to determine what they are?

"You prolly know I can be a 'wise-acre' but this came to mind…things laying around the shop already…well…maybe?"

OS OK

[NavyVet1959]

"You prolly know I can be a 'wise-acre' but this came to mind…things laying around the shop already…well…maybe?"


So, you're saying it's a "pull my finger" moment? :)

I'm thinking that you probably need to measure how long the spring will be when compressed so that you are only compressing the spring the necessary amount. I'm assuming that the force needed to compress a spring at any point during the full compression cycle increases as the length of the compressed spring gets shorter. For example, for many magazines, adding that last round or two is noticeably different than the first few rounds.

[OS OK]

I would compress the springs as I buy them down to expected measurements of the spring in actual application in pistol so that I get an idea of what my reading is going to tell me about a 'known' value. This ain't rocket stuff…it's redneck and you know how us rednecks can do things, under the shade tree type stuff, just trying to identify something within reasonable efforts but I would imagine it'll be pretty close…I get what your saying about magazine springs, don't have an idea about this compared to that.
I'm going to be suffering the same dilemmas soon when I get an assortment of weights for my Colt 1911 and have given it some thought…dang…maby that's whats been giving me a headache!
You old Navy Swabs can fix anything…us Marines…well…we will guard the 'hatch'!

[NavyVet1959]

I would compress the springs as I buy them down to expected measurements of the spring in actual application in pistol so that I get an idea of what my reading is going to tell me about a 'known' value. This ain't rocket stuff…it's redneck and you know how us rednecks can do things, under the shade tree type stuff, just trying to identify something within reasonable efforts but I would imagine it'll be pretty close…I get what your saying about magazine springs, don't have an idea about this compared to that.
I'm going to be suffering the same dilemmas soon when I get an assortment of weights for my Colt 1911 and have given it some thought…dang…maby that's whats been giving me a headache!


I started thinking about the issue after I bought the RIA .22TCM/9mm combo. When I bought a .38 SUPER barrel for it and wasn't sure what spring weight to use, I started thinking about the issue a bit more. I would like to measure the springs on my other M1911s to see what they are so that I could possibly try them while developing loads for the .38 SUPER. I'm going to be using 9x23 loads in the .38 SUPER and making my brass from .223 brass, so I guess what I'm creating is a .38 SuperComp.



You old Navy Swabs can fix anything…us Marines…well…we will guard the 'hatch'!

"If it don't work, get a bigger hammer..."

[OS OK]

Ha! Bigger Hammer…Bigger Marine…what's the difference?
"When its got to be positively, without a doubt, no foolin around and enthusiastically...'destroyed overnight'…call the Marines! Fast friendly service...Ha!"

We gotsum Big Hammers!

[GaryN]

Just wait until you get older and you can't see your sights anyway... :(

Get your eyes fixed!!! Not trying to start anything. I had cataracts in both eyes. I had them fixed last year. WOW!!!! What a difference. I used to put the pistol target out there at 25 yards and I would walk back and go to shoot. Now which target should I shoot at. I only put out one but my eyes said there were two. The doctor said the lens should last the rest of my life. Now if I can stay away from other eye ailments I will be ok.