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aquarist
02-04-2016, 08:37 PM
Hello Boolit forum!

I'm new here, was pointed to this forum from a local gun forum. Recently I have gotten into reloading and casting projectiles. I received a Dillon xl650 for Christmas and purchased all the lead smelting equipment to go with it. So far I am only set up to do "one" caliber 38/357, but looking to get the conversion kit and dies for 45 and 9mm once Uncle Same gives me some of the money he borrowed back. I'm set up with a Lee 4 20 melting pot and a Lee TI358-158-Swc six cavity mold and roughly 100 pounds of lead, half of which I've already smelted into projectiles.

One issue I'm having is the projectiles are coming out more oval than round, having to sort through them to pick the rounder projectiles is a real pain. It seems the oval projectiles are usually around 0.358 on the seam side, but the non seam sides can be upwards of 0.370-0.380. I believe the sprue plate is bent and may be preventing the mold from closing properly, it's always been really hard to close since I've owned it and a fair amount of the metal has worn off from where the sprue plate goes under the bolt. I am not sure if I bent it, or it came that way, but I've contacted Lee to see if I can buy a replacement sprue plate, would hate to have to buy an entire new mold.

I'm mainly wanting to know about projectile sizing for my 38/357. I know I want the projectiles to be about 0.001-0.002 bigger than the cylinder and forcing cone on my revolver. I took a fairly round projectile and slugged my cylinder this morning. After slugging I got measurements in the 0.357-0.358.5 range. But there was an area that was worn down the most, I tried to measure it as best I could and believe it was around 0.347-0.350.

I was told if projectiles pass the plunk test they do not need to be sized, I assume the person was referring to if the projectile falls free through the entire barrel or cylinder? Well I tried this as well, the projectiles will fit all the way to the front of the cylinder, and up to the lube rings on the forcing cone. I took pictures, maybe someone can educate me on if these need to be sized or not. I am looking into PCing my projectiles so hopefully I'll have enough space for a coat or two.

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160205/0793a0818de2bf9a7e1618fd86a7b27c.jpg

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160205/d386e7918b410d9d225f76dae36221f2.jpg

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160205/544607151b121b9df3966ba81ef5344c.jpg

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160205/54d2478c2d8109eed87a1aeeb02342d1.jpg

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160205/c4aef831002c8fc15b45c614436d1efa.jpg

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160205/a61680c3c7d376b9dba63086ba885ca9.jpg

aquarist
02-04-2016, 08:43 PM
Just tumble lubbed about 750 projectiles I made last night. I think I used WAY too much liquid alox the first couple times around, so took some pictures of the process this time. I usually put half the projectiles in my container, then put some alox, then the other half and more alox on top. I forgot to put the alox in the middle the first go so I tumbled with just the top squirt of alox, then decided to add some more after the first 5-6 minutes of mixing. Let me know if I'm using too much still please.

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160203/d38537bc4b7f315e954f815a62baaf0d.jpg

First amount of alox

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160203/f2397ebc890a939ca9fcf8eab87b3346.jpg

The below picture is after the first tumbling, I didn't think it had enough coating so I took half the projectiles out and added more alox.

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160203/a601c8268f0e3caafe53e7210fa31723.jpg

Added alox to the middle.

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160203/35df2cb30ade7651f0ac0785e9a38601.jpg

This is the finished product

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160203/74a1a91aff14a5071c38d2e995117b2c.jpg

You can feel the alox on the projectiles, but you don't see much on them. Previously my projectiles were cover in the alox and were more yellow/brown. Any input of my alox use would be great!

swmass
02-04-2016, 09:18 PM
Alox doesn't look too heavy. That should be fine. Most people can't go buy alox without ordering it, so a lot of people cut it with johnsons paste wax as well. You can buy it at Home Depot for about 5 or 6 bucks and it will last you forever. It will also remove some of the tackiness that you get from the alox. That's to be expected when running straight alox (the sticky, tackiness)

The "plunk test" simply means if a round will easily drop into your cylinder without forcing it in. An entire loaded round, not just the bullet like your first picture. If it will chamber unsized, then shoot them as is. The reason behind this being if it will fit into your cylinders, it will be sized when it is shot. It will size itself down to get through your cylinder and barrel. Since the bullet is already in its largest state, if it will fit in the gun why take the time to size it by hand when it will size itself. Those are tumble lube bullets so you can not size them, if you ran them through a sizer the grooves would be rubbed off and wouldn't hold the alox/wax as well.

As for the oval shape.. Lee molds have a tendency to do that.. Most people size em and they're all even after that. Normal non tumble lube bullets which can be sized that is.. In your case, they would likely be squished down essentially when passing through the cylinder throat and it won't cause any problems.. Just as accurate as round bullets. As long as the smallest diameter is still larger than your cylinder throats. If it is too small at the smallest point you'll get some leading. Tumble lube molds are designed to drop smaller than other molds and should not require any sizing anyway. You cast em, tumble and shoot.

I don't slug my barrels on revolvers, simply check the back of the cylinders and measure those. My gp100 measures about .3575, but I don't get leading with .358. Since those are tumble lubes your best bet is to load em up and see if the chamber, shoot em off and check for leading. Hope I didn't make it too confusing.

I should add, I shoot tumble lube wad cutters in 38.. They don't chamber. Since I can't size them, I run them through my lee FCD die and they are then able to chamber and I get no leading. Not a problem for you but something to think about if it happens.

swmass
02-04-2016, 09:33 PM
Sorry for all the edits, wanted to make sure I clarified a few things that sounded off.

aquarist
02-04-2016, 09:38 PM
Thanks for the info, so far I have been sizing them and then loading them up. I haven't tried to load any of the unsized projectiles. I will sort through the 750 I have that are unsized and pick out some of the best and load up a few test rounds to shoot. I'll go to the shed now and load up six "dummy" casings with just the brass and projectile to test fit. Will post a photo soon.

blikseme300
02-04-2016, 09:43 PM
I see a lot of flashing on the CB's and this is typically caused by the mold halves not being able to close properly due to small bits of alloy getting between them. This will cause oval CB's every time. Another cause of the flashing is how you hold the Lee 6-banger mold handles. The sprue cutter handle must not be squeezed while casting as it will cause the mold halves to open up and cause flashing.

Please do not view any of this as negative comment as I sense your enthusiasm from your post and I have been there myself being somewhat frustrated.

On the matter of size wheel-guns and auto pistols have different requirements and characteristics. The gotcha with wheel-guns is that if the cylinder bore is smaller than what the barrel needs then the outcome will be poor no matter how big you try to go. DougGuy here on this forum can help fix this problem.

jcren
02-04-2016, 09:55 PM
What he said on the oval/flashing. Look for slick shiny dots no bigger than a powder grain on the mold faces and scrape off with a stick or dowel. The easy fix for what you have cast is to run them through a lee push through sizer. Cheap and effective. Lots of people, myself included, here love that mold for 38/357 and it is fairly easy to learn with. Btw, check out asbbdt powder coat in the search box, cheap and easy to get started on and cleaner for you and the gun!159971

aquarist
02-04-2016, 10:31 PM
Okay, so although the unsized projectiles fit well in the cylinder, after adding the thickness of the brass they failed to fall in all the way. Another thing I noticed is when using the unsized projectiles after seating the projectile depth there is a bulge in the casing, hard to see in a photo but I am pointing to it with my thumb nail in the picture below. I do not get this bulging action when using the sized projectile.

However my sized projectiles fit find in the cylinder with the casings. But I just tested a sized projectile and it falls freely through the cylinder but gets stuck halfway through the forcing cone. Since you are not supposed to size tumble lube projectiles and mine seem to be too large if left unsized could I size them and maybe add a layer of PC on the sized projectiles, since the lube won't stick well without the grooves, would work?

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160205/004fd6efa6c28a3b296bb2bb3f4db467.jpg

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160205/7d125f1d87aa0f5e3701f533b99da83b.jpg

Here's a picture of one of the sized projectiles. It seems to wear most of the tumble live grooves down till its smooth, I believe I have a 357 sizer die, it's one of the Lee press through. Below I will give a comparison:

Sized projectile:
On seam: 0.356
Off seam: 0.357
Base: 0.357

Unsized projectile:
On seam: 0.358
Off seam: 0.374
Base: 0.376

Below are photos of a sized projectile, I tried to get the groove detail to show up well. First picture is of the seam side, the second is the off seam side, the off seam side is practically smooth, there is a tiny amount of groove left.

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160205/6194204777aa81522e85a4b6c6fd4d3e.jpg

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160205/c38f6e1418cb6068f7ea28597c9bb5b8.jpg

aquarist
02-04-2016, 10:42 PM
Forgot to mention, I've shot about 1,200 sized projectiles in 38 special reloads with 2.7 grains of Hosgdon clays, it's a super lite load but fun for plinking, it's my alternative to 22LR since I'm loading them for about 9 cents. I don't believe there's much if any leading in the barrel. Just to confirm, to check for leading I am looking at the lands and grooves inside the barrel, making sure the grooves are not filled with lead, and the lands are still chrome like shinny?

@blikseme300 All help is good help, I can tell from your post you are helping to educate me not belittle me. So no harm done. So far I've had decent accuracy with my reloads in 38 special, I shoot them in the handgun "pit" at my club, it's maybe 20 yards max, I tend to shoot paper at around 10-15 yards, and the steel targets are pegged to the ground at the berm which I believe is 20ish. I don't have a photo of one of my targets with reloads, if I make it to the range Saturday I'll be sure to post one.

@jcren I have not looked at that powder coating yet. Will it work with the "shake and bake" method? A member from the local fun forum pointed me here to someone that sells quality PC and they've used it and have had pretty good success with it, comes in a nice light blue one other colors. Those projectiles look great in the photo, do they continue to look good up close, is that just a single coat, how much thickness does a single coat add? I know looks don't matter, but they do, that's what PC comes in so many pretty colors. I want to try it out but waiting to score a deal on a hopefully free toaster oven, I head you don't want to bake the PC projectiles in a toaster oven or oven you plan to use again for food.

jcren
02-04-2016, 11:04 PM
Type asbbdt (air soft bb dry tumble) into the search box at the top right and you will have a months worth of reading to do! Yes, it is a shake and bake method, and those are from my second attempt at powder coat from some time back and aren't perfect, but do look prety nice. With practice, you should be able to get 85-90% as slick of coverage as a proper powder coat gun. Typically adds .001-.003 to diameter. I coat, bake, then size. That stuff is so tough and slick it makes sizing easier. Yes, smokes powders are excellent and proven to work in our application. Don't use your kitchen oven, I use a nuwave which has a clear hood and you can't see through the hood anymore from the out-gassing. Here is a 45 coated in smokes high gloss black, sized, loaded, shot into a 5 gallon bucket of water, and dug up about 16" in the clay under the bucket.
159976

rockrat
02-04-2016, 11:04 PM
You can size tumble lubed boolits. No problem. Some of my moulds cast way too large for the rifle I intend and its tough on the Star to size down too much. Sometimes I tumble lube the boolits with thinned LLA (thin with mineral spirits) and let dry, then run thru the Star sizer. Makes it alot easier.
As said earlier, check to see if you have any lead spattered on the mould faces. Will definitely cause the boolits to be out of round. Also have had one of the mould guide pins come loose and intrude on the mould face and caused problems. Also had one protruding on a new mould before. Don't forget to put a little lube on the mold alignment pins.

aquarist
02-05-2016, 12:06 AM
@Rocketrat Can I lube it with Ballistol(nonaresol version which is thick) Maybe car oil? Or I can go buy something, those are the two options I have on hand. I will have a good look at the mold tomorrow and see if there is any damage, or any smutz on the face of the plate where they connect.

@jcren Dang that black PC seemed to hold up really well! Are you baking them at 350/375 for 15 minutes? Also I've seen two methods, those that place each projectile on a pan so they don't touch, and those that use the basket method, where they dump them in a basket and bake. Which method are you using? For the place and bake method, would it be a better idea to maybe place them "butt" up, since the bottom is the most important part when considering coatings? Also how are they for reclaiming, if I want to melt it back down would that work out fine? I believe the PC should burn off perhaps with some toxic fumes but other than that shouldn't be an issue. Am I correct in this line of logic? One of the fun this about casting are there are no mistakes, just melt it back down and try again.

roberts1
02-05-2016, 12:17 AM
my experience with that style of bullet is that i needed to size them to avoid leading. They chambered fine in my 44 mag vaquero unsized but leaded like crazy until i sized them so they fit with light pressure thru the cylinder which is going to squeeze them down anyway. I think in my situation by the time they hit the barrel the alox was already gone probably deposited on the cylinder and forcing cone which are the first two places an oversized bullet gets fit to the barrel. There was also some lead spatter on the frame. Every Lee mold i have casts a little out of round so sizing helps to even things up tho I dont have the complete wiping away of the tumble lube grooves you do on yours. A noticeable bulge in the cast after loading is not uncommon but obviously they need to chamber. Pc is great but does add a couple thousands to the size but u can just size them again after pc. A simple test to see if your gun is suitable for lead bullets without modification is to drive a lead slug down the barrel. Once you have done this take the slug which is now exactly the same size as your bore and see if it fits easily thru each hole.

jcren
02-05-2016, 12:33 AM
I was amazed how tough. I place and bake base down on non-stick aluminum foil (nsaf) and have seen no signs to base damage, even in reduced 30-06 loads around 1600 fps. My oven has a timer so I just set it for 20 minutes at 375 from cold and work on something else until it "dings" and yes, pc burns off easily in a smelt and fluxes away with no trace I have noticed, and I melt several pounds of my own reclaimed with each new casting. Also, I have found no need to size before coating, I only size once, after coating and if you aren't pc'ing you may try pre-lubing bullets to be sized with soap. Worked well for me and washes off easily to avoid adhesion problems with whatever you wind up using.

wv109323
02-05-2016, 12:37 AM
Aquarist,
From the photos and measurements you have a mold problem. Your molds are not closing all the way. Your bullets should be round + or - .001". You are getting .016" out of round . Get the the sprue plate out of the way and look at the mold with the two halves together. Hold the halves up to a light source, You should not be able to see light between the halves.
Look for lead in the alignment pins or an alignment pin protruding out of the mold too far. I would find my problem and remelt/recast the existing bullets.
Your cast bullets should be ideally be .359 and then sized to .001 over actual bore Diameter. Just guessing but .357 is probably undersized for a 38 bore.
When run through a .358 sizer there should be about 90% of the lube grooves remaining.
There can be a bulge on a loaded round. Reloading dies are mostly set up for jacketed bullets. The neck expander is set up for a jacketed .357 bullet. Most will size the neck to .353 or so. Seating a jacketed bullet will do not harm in the .353 neck. But a .358 lead bullet may be resized by seating the bullet.

Wayne Smith
02-05-2016, 08:39 AM
Possible simple solution to the mold problem. If you are hiolding the sprue plate handle as you hold the mold closed you will hold the mold slightly open. This is a natural thing to do, especially if you have big hands. I have to consciously take my fingers off the sprue plate handle with those molds to keep that from happening.

Your barrel is the final sizer. If the slug is approximately straight and true entering the forcing cone the boolit comes out the other end perfectly sized. Your fit looks good, I do not worry about uneven sizing in revolver boolits unless or until I have accuracy problems - fliers.

aquarist
02-05-2016, 05:46 PM
So I've heard back from Lee and sent them in several images to see if I can get my sprue plate fix, if that's the issue, they said I can return it under warranty.

To all of those that suggested not to hold the sprue plate closed while casting this is great advice, I don't hold the sprue plate closed and I try to not squeeze the handles, but sometimes I do squeeze them. I took a good look at the surface of each mold plate where they meet up and didn't notice any drops of lead, but it could be dirty, what's the best method for cleaning and relubing a mold?

The first two pictures I am trying to hold the mold up to the light and take a photo of the light coming through the space, there is space in each cavity so i am starting to believe there may be more than just the sprue plate issue.

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160205/21cbd492eca1e56c50123b7e7e2c6071.jpg

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160205/6535bd00ac9cb9597802f5496c30817a.jpg

The next photo shows the wear to the sprue plate where is goes under the retaining bolt. This mold has been difficult to close since day one, and some metal has been worn down on this part of the sprue plate. I do try and coat it in graphite when I am using it to try and prevent more wear and damage.

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160205/2d89238505cf70cec54cefab4ac889c3.jpg

This photo shows how the sprue plate is much higher on the handle end, then the other end.

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160205/17768c6485172d27ef8aae7564899f4e.jpg

The next two photos are from when the mold is closed and the sprue plate is locked in under the retaining bolt. You can see on the ends there is a noticeable V instead of the mold meeting together in a straight line.

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160205/91b7f0a877bc52a99189023ebe0de39f.jpg

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160205/27c9e6cb7e7047986c6b44dd853e784a.jpg

Last but not least is a picture of how I hold the mold when I'm casting. I rest the mold of the black metal adjustable thing on the Lee 4-20 when I am filling it, I do try and hold it as level as possible but may Kant it to the left or right some.

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160205/ef2dcd61b5dfb7f35e20a93c0ac251c4.jpg

aquarist
02-05-2016, 06:25 PM
Just heard back from Lee, took less than two hours talk about great customer service. They said it appears to be defective/damaged in the photos I sent and they will replace it under the warranty I just have to send it back. What a great company, I figured I'd have to jump through at least ten hoops to get some warranty work.

wv109323
02-05-2016, 11:51 PM
Good, I think once you get the mold sorted out that your bullets will be a much higher quality.

aquarist
02-06-2016, 02:56 AM
Cast a few over 1,200, 124 grain TC 9mm projectiles. They came out great! Still saving for the conversion kit and dies for the Dillon but at least I'll have the projectiles ready so I can start cranking them out once the parts get here.

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160206/9ad921b92ba1b50735b55dea3d8fba42.jpg

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160206/307cdf83ebfdff66a8df511f98ab19f3.jpg

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160206/4f6cb9fdc06612dc6a499bcc4c432940.jpg

aquarist
02-08-2016, 12:44 PM
Mailed my 38/357 mold back to Lee to have it refurbished. They said it has a 48 hour turn around, so hoping to have it back in my hands early next week. Not having the mold and being able to reload will give me time to sweg some primer pockets in my 5.56 collection, and look through my 9mm casings and get them prepped up for when I'm about to get the conversion kit and dies. I probably have a good bit of nato brass so may end of sweging some if I don't have 2k or so normal brass.

Shot some of my old stock with the out of round projectiles, got decent groups with my 357 loads, I loaded them up lite for my first test, did 3.3 grains of Titegroup, had a tiny bit of leading but nothing a good brushing could not handle, the bore is all nice and shiny again. I like how the Titegroup worked in the 357 and it out performed the clays with the same amount of powder. The tightgroup also felt good to shoot, got a little bit of recoil from these lite loads, cannot wait to shoot some full strength loads once my new mold gets here.

First two are of the tightgroup, shooting at roughly 10 yards. The green stickers are 2 inches across.

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160208/93460dfdb06009e82302075562023e19.jpg

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160208/c7daf176dac9e60e8a64086607c3bea8.jpg

This is the only picture I took from the clays, I forgot to take more. These were also my first rounds of the day so a bit sloppy.

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160208/2758cb1af6622c8b761e819e4320d602.jpg

aquarist
02-12-2016, 12:47 PM
Got an email back from Lee saying they already sent the mold back which is awesome. Such quick turn around, the package got there Wednesday and it was out the door and on its way back to me on Thursday. Can't wait to have it in hand, not sure how long it'll take to ship but hoping to have it by the end of next week.

aquarist
02-16-2016, 12:26 PM
Got my mold back from Lee took about a week total, from the time I mailed it to the time it was back to me. Great customer service, and fast shipping, I will probably get more Lee molds in the future based off this experience.

I also go my 9mm conversion kit for the Dillon xl650, cannot wait to start cranking out reloads!! I ordered some PC and got a $4 toaster oven, now just gotta wait for the PC to come in the mail. I'm hoping it'll be here this week.