Crimping without a crimp groove

[sutherpride59]

Ok so I have cast about 1000 rounds over the past two weeks of WW bullets that are .452 230gr tc's but don't have a crimp groove. I tried crimping them and at first all looked good till I noticed one sitting a bit out of the case. I just realized of the 50 cartridges I just loaded the crimp doesn't seem like it will hold, the boolits can be pulled a couple millimeters out of the case with my fingers. I increased the crimp and it did not seem to make it any better. I'm loading .45 colt for a wheel gun so I know that I need a good crimp to keep the boolits from backing out during firing. Am I going to HAVE to buy a different mold with a crimp groove? I was really wanting to be able to use one mold for both 45 colt and ACP.

[sutherpride59]

Ok after thorough examination I realize that I was using my 45 ACP crimping tool, still set at the right length should that really have such an impact. It crimps the 45 acp just fine, set to the rift length shouldn't my lee crimping die in 45 acp work just as well for 45lc

[44man]

The ACP has a taper crimp and the Colt is a roll crimp. Trying to roll without a groove can lead to all kinds of problems.
I would consider a new mold or maybe the cursed FCD.
The Lee 452-255-RF shoots great. Price is close to a FCD.

[Blackwater]

First you have to realize what a crimp is and what it's designed to do in your gun. For an auto, it's simply to turn the case mount into the bullet a tiny bit so it forms a little ring that bites into the bullet, so the bullet can't be forced back into the case when it's feeding up to the chamber and hits the feed ramp, nose first. This is what a taper crimp is for, and you only need to turn that case mouth into the bullet very slightly, and certainly not the full thickness of the thickness of the brass at the neck. Autos usually headspace on the case mouth, so the front of the case neck, the mouth, HAS to stick out from the bullet so the finished ctg. is stopped on the front of the chamber by the rim. Failing this, the firing pin might not reach the primer, because the ctg. would be able to go so far forward in the chamber. Not a good thing for one's shooting.

And using a roll crimp and a bullet with a cannelure or crimp groove would allow just that - the ctg. to be able to move too far forward in the chamber to fire, because the case mouth, which is supposed to stop further and deeper entry into the chamber, isn't there, but has been turned into the crimp groove.

Make sense? Understanding WHY we do things is the first step in producing really good and reliable loads. If you have a manual, you need to fully read and comprehend the front part where most describe and teach you why you do things the way they have to be to get good loads. If you don't have a manual, you need to get one, and pronto, too! I don't know of any that don't have good tutorials, and reading them a number of times is really necessary to make good, honest reloads that won't let you down, maybe at a critical moment. That ain't no small thing!

[44man]

Exactly, the ACP has no rim for head space but the Colt does.
You need decent case tension too. If you are moving boolits with your fingers, you have none or ruined it with the crimp.

[bedbugbilly]

I have a .452 SWC 200 grain boolit that I use in my 45 Colt and it doesn't have a crimp groove as I believe it is intended to be used in the 45ACP. I'm shooting them out of my Uberti 7 1/2" Cattleman over 6.0 grains of Red Dot. For those, I use a 45ACP taper crimp die and they seem to work just fine - never had any bullet jump with them. YMMV depending on how hot a load you are shooting and your particular revolver. On my 454-190 RNFP I use a roll crimp.

Try your 45ACP taper crimp die on that boolit and see how they work with the powder charge you are using. If a milder load, they'll probably work just fine. And as mentioned . . check you neck tension and you may have to use an expander a .001 or so smaller?

[bangerjim]

The "cursed" Lee FCD works for me! GREAT. Solves ALL my chambering and cycling problems in every cal I had former problems with.

Now if I could find a "die" to fix my personal problems that easy!!!!! HA.....ha!

[runfiverun]

I don't think the LEE 'what are we gonna do with all these carbide rings we made oversized'? die.
is gonna help here.
if you can move the boolit by hand you have a neck tension problem not a crimp problem.
start measuring thing back to when you size the case, then look at your expander.
taper crimping a light 45 load for the 45 colt should be just as easy as taper crimping a 45 acp round.

I use a 200gr swc type acp boolit in my 45 colts without any trouble and I taper crimp them in place.
you have an issue somewhere I'd look for the die causing the problem.

[Cowboy_Dan]

If you really want to use that boolit in the .45 Colt, you should be able to roll crimp it on the front band. But do get the neck tension thing sorted out first as described above.

[bangerjim]

If you can "move the boolit by hand" in the case.....ya' better give up and start over and relearn sizing/loading techniques from the word go! I have NEVER had that situation occur in the many many THOUSANDS of rounds I have loaded over the years.

FCD is not a cure-all for inadequate sizing/loading techniques. It does have it's place in your box of tricks/tools.

Guess I just hold my mouth right.

[W.R.Buchanan]

A taper crimp would work just fine on the .45LC. I have a taper crimp die for .44's and there isn't that much difference between the two cartridges design wise.

.45 ACP bullets usually don't have a crimp groove and use a taper crimp that should measure .470 when done. It digs into the boolit to form it's own crimp groove, but sticks out enough for the front of the chamber to prevent forward movement of the case.(Headspace) The main purpose of that style crimp is to prevent the boolit from being shoved back into the case when hitting the feed ramp on an auto pistol.

But your problem has nothing to do with any of those things. Your expander die is too big and as such you have no neck tension on your boolit. That is obvious if you can move the boolit with you fingers.

You should be able to take your loaded round prior to crimping and push it into the front of your bench without having the boolit move at all. Then you have correct neck tension. After that you can crimp the round.

The crimp simply adds some holding force to keep the boolit in place.

Randy

[quail4jake]

Oversizing the case neck may be more the issue than crimp here... case neck tension is very important when seating cast boolits, too tight and you get the effect of sizing the boolit to a slightly smaller diameter on seating, too loose and the boolit will wiggle. Crimp, no matter how much or what type cannot make up for loose seating. I only roll crimp jacketed boolits with a cannelure and use a taper crimp on cast boolits. I suit the taper crimp to the crimp groove without deforming it, about .004 - .007 but when I crimp cast boolits with no groove I apply just a touch of crimp, about .002 - .004; this after seating in a case belled to just grip the boolit. I load .38 S&W with 145 gr original style boolit with no crimp groove, .45 ACP with 230 gr .452 no crimp groove and the same .452 boolit in .45 Colt both with the same bell die and crimp and no bullets wiggle and I've never had one creep out or move in. Truthfully, I've always thought of the crimp as a final touch to secure the boolit in the neck and provide reliable resistance to initial movement of the boolit upon firing, which provides for more consistent ignition as opposed to being the only thing to grip the boolit and maintain OAL. Get it? There is a certain "sweet spot" of case neck tension, depth of case expansion and crimp that gives us all we need to make it work. I've taken to custom turning case mouth bell expanders for the exact diameter boolit I'm loading and this made a big difference. I also crimp in a separate die after seating the boolit, I use a Redding taper crimp die to finish. I hope this helps. RB from PA

[sutherpride59]

I loaded 100 more rounds and just crimped them with the seating die and they seem to be holding fine, I was a dumb dumb and just grabbed the wrong die. I'll see if the bullet pulls out using this 230gr die and the bullets seating die crimp. If it doesn't I'll just stick with this, if it does I guess I'll just buyanother lee mold. Thanks for all the advice y'all.

[DougGuy]

There is also the uncatalogued Lee #80337 collet style factory crimp die which I have really good luck with on heavy boolits in softer alloy above stout charges of slow burning powder. It will swage a crimp band right into the side of the boolit if you lean on it hard enough.

Here is a thread I posted a while back showing the modifications I do to my Lee collet style dies, it makes them work much better by making a narrow crimp band then positioning it right at the case mouth:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?201449-Question-about-type-of-crimp-required&p=2239315&viewfull=1#post2239315

+1 on not enough case neck tension! Regardless of crimp used, crimp alone won't do the trick. You need both neck tension AND crimp for these large straight walled pistol cases.

[44man]

I use Hornady dies that came with what they call a "TAPER CRIMP die." I don't know why since it makes a right perfect roll crimp. However I don't use it much since the opening is too small for some of my cast boolits. You must be able to slip a cast through easy from the top or it will seat deeper when you crimp.
All my roll crimp loads are seated and crimped at the same time, been doing that forever and hundreds and hundreds of crimp tests has never shown a need to crimp separate.

[DerekP Houston]

If you can "move the boolit by hand" in the case.....ya' better give up and start over and relearn sizing/loading techniques from the word go! I have NEVER had that situation occur in the many many THOUSANDS of rounds I have loaded over the years.

FCD is not a cure-all for inadequate sizing/loading techniques. It does have it's place in your box of tricks/tools.

Guess I just hold my mouth right.


Erm, I've blown the neck tension on a few 30-06 loads and been able to wiggle the bullet but not seat it any deeper. I just pulled the components and scraped the brass, I assumed that was standard for a few to not pass inspection especially being new to it. Haven't used cast for 06 yet though, so it was factory 168gr bthp.

[reddog81]

Assuming the mold drops a large enough diameter bullet I don't think you need a new mold but the correct seating/crimp die is going to make a huge difference. The neck diameter of 45 colt brass is .480 the neck diameter of .45 ACP is .473. The 45 Colt brass is thicker which means the the same crimp die is not going to work on both.

If adjusted correctly a roll crimp die could work for 45 ACP, assuming you only do a tiny roll crimp. Conversely a taper crimp die could work for most revolver loads assuming your neck tension is sufficient.

[sutherpride59]

Yah i realize now I should have simply adjusted the seating die to properly crimp the round. I used the seating die to crimp the rounds and had no problems with the rounds backing out as I was shooting. I didnt get to test the rounds at the distance i wanted to. At 8 yards (dont ask i couldnt shoot further for reasons) i got 1" group, for a Heritage Rough Rider 45LC it was better than I expected. I tested a stepladder of loads and found that with 6.4 grains of trail boss i had the best groups.

I reamed the throats to .4525", i cut the forcing cone to 11 degrees. I still need to fire lap the bore to get rid of the barrel constriction near the threaded part of the barrel.

All that said is there a certain measurment of crimp that i should stick to that will squeeze a little more accuracy out of this gun? At 25 yards I expect to get about a 3" group but i'de like to shrink that if i can. I may be trying to do the impossible but hopefully not. I've always found that a gun is more fun to shoot when you can hit what you're aiming at.

[runfiverun]

wait a second I was just re-reading the O.P.

did you leave the 45 acp crimp die set down for the acp case length?
if so you over sized the boolit and case in the crimp die and the case sprung back but the boolit didn't.

[sutherpride59]

Runfiverun you got it, that's what happened. This why I simply crimped the rest of the rounds with the seating die. I didn't realize I was using the 45acp crimper at first because I have a dedicated crumpet for both.... I just can't find my 45lc crimped is all this I used te seating die instead to crimp correctly.